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Old 04-17-2011, 04:02 PM   #1
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Default Changing the Default Rules

There are some things i would like to be changed in the BG default rules, and I want your guys' opinions.

First, the default location. Concerning Naruto matches, it makes no sense to have the default location be the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, whatever the hell that is. I do know it's from another verse though. Why can't it be some plain old location in Naruto, like the grass plain from Kimimaro vs. Gaara or the Konoha Crater? I also hear that Naruto characters can't handle the HTC, and if they can't I'm sure there are some other verses that can't either.

Second, bloodlusted default. Why not make it in character, but with killing intent? Making them bloodlusted would stray even more from how it would be like if the fight happened in the manga. Some characters are really OOC when theyre bloodlusted and some people make it as an excuse to have them act all stupid so that the character they want to win, wins.

Third, this rule:
Quote:
If a contestant needs certain terrain in order to fight at full potential, it is given. (Ex. Elements for Avatar: The Last Airbender characters, Nature Energy for the use of Sage Mode, etc.)
I know people may abuse the crap out of this. But it makes it pointless to have a set location in the first place, like why make it a volcano but have a water source for Suiton users available anyway?

Also I know this isnt a "rule" but I see many people debating with feats only, and I used to myself so I should know. But what's so bad about hype if it's been backed up?
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

I may not be popular enough here to mean anything but the default here are bullcrap.
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Supporting this.

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But what's so bad about hype if it's been backed up?
Mind giving an example?

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like why make it a volcano but have a water source for Suiton users available anyway?
Depending on where the Water Source is the Heat might as well cause Water to evaporate.

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whatever the hell that is.
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Old 04-19-2011, 07:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Yes, posts! I thought no one would answer after Kamaitachi posted

Like in Minato's case where pretty much everyone in the manga says that he's fast, but some people say that he's featless so they use that against him in a debate,. Stuff like that.

The volcano thing is just an example, but it applies to other locations too.
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Quote:
First, the default location. Concerning Naruto matches, it makes no sense to have the default location be the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, whatever the hell that is. I do know it's from another verse though. Why can't it be some plain old location in Naruto, like the grass plain from Kimimaro vs. Gaara or the Konoha Crater? I also hear that Naruto characters can't handle the HTC, and if they can't I'm sure there are some other verses that can't either
It's to make things manageable, but aren't people free to specify a location of their choosing?

Quote:
Second, bloodlusted default. Why not make it in character, but with killing intent? Making them bloodlusted would stray even more from how it would be like if the fight happened in the manga. Some characters are really OOC when theyre bloodlusted and some people make it as an excuse to have them act all stupid so that the character they want to win, wins.
The Battlegrounds have never been a place to debate kuromaki, most are battles where both characters are standing still using jutsu against eachother or speed blitzing eachother. No one likes to over think things and consider what kakashi might do to counter someone he doesn't know. Afterall, it's been shown many a time that kakashi leaves a clone in the open while he stalks everyone. This way he can reduce the chance of being blind sided by an enemy he can't understand. Whether or not he is blood lusted, people throw this out the window and rely on their most extreme powers.

Quote:
Also I know this isnt a "rule" but I see many people debating with feats only, and I used to myself so I should know. But what's so bad about hype if it's been backed up?
Sticking to things that can be easily backed up by wikis makes people's lives easier, thus they want only " canon material" used. Like I said, there's no actual debating in the BG. It's just who has the best attack.
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 04-19-2011, 08:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
It's to make things manageable, but aren't people free to specify a location of their choosing?
A bunch of people don't, and location can matter in a fight so we'd be debating a hundred different scenarios if there was no default location.
Quote:
The Battlegrounds have never been a place to debate kuromaki, most are battles where both characters are standing still using jutsu against eachother or speed blitzing eachother. No one likes to over think things and consider what kakashi might do to counter someone he doesn't know. Afterall, it's been shown many a time that kakashi leaves a clone in the open while he stalks everyone. This way he can reduce the chance of being blind sided by an enemy he can't understand. Whether or not he is blood lusted, people throw this out the window and rely on their most extreme powers.
Case in point. I want to improve the quality of debating here. Also, there are some people who incorporate things like that into their arguments, just look around. The whole "blood lusted" thing just makes it more convenient.
Quote:
Sticking to things that can be easily backed up by wikis makes people's lives easier, thus they want only " canon material" used. Like I said, there's no actual debating in the BG. It's just who has the best attack.
Hype is canon. I don't see why it can't be used as long as it has some reasonable support.
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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A bunch of people don't, and location can matter in a fight so we'd be debating a hundred different scenarios if there was no default location.
I think this should be instinctive,but not everyone knows to do this. Making this apart of the guidelines could fix that. Sometimes reading an option makes them realize that they could have done that,for next time.

Quote:
Case in point. I want to improve the quality of debating here. Also, there are some people who incorporate things like that into their arguments, just look around. The whole "blood lusted" thing just makes it more convenient.
I know there are some people,but most of the best debaters including zig wouldn't actually come up with a substantial argument unless the other person took the initiative.

I agree, making someone bloodlusted implies that they don't think beyond, ATTACK.

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Hype is canon. I don't see why it can't be used as long as it has some reasonable support.
I thought Hype was speculation and feats were canon. xD
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 04-19-2011, 08:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
It's to make things manageable, but aren't people free to specify a location of their choosing?



The Battlegrounds have never been a place to debate kuromaki, most are battles where both characters are standing still using jutsu against eachother or speed blitzing eachother. No one likes to over think things and consider what kakashi might do to counter someone he doesn't know. Afterall, it's been shown many a time that kakashi leaves a clone in the open while he stalks everyone. This way he can reduce the chance of being blind sided by an enemy he can't understand. Whether or not he is blood lusted, people throw this out the window and rely on their most extreme powers.



Sticking to things that can be easily backed up by wikis makes people's lives easier, thus they want only " canon material" used. Like I said, there's no actual debating in the BG. It's just who has the best attack.
To further prove this point...
The Battlegrounds is all just a 2D debate. People never want to take into consideration Battle Logic, which creates a 3D debate. For example,
Quote:
X Vs. Y
Location: Some forest
No one has prep.

X beats Y because X has powers 1, 2, and 3, whereas Y's only way of combating X is to use power 4 because Y's 1-2-3 powers are no match, but it requires prep so X wins."
^ 2D argument
Quote:
Counter:
X uses power 1 to set the forest on fire, using powers 2-3 as cover and a diversion respectively. By setting the forest on fire and using powers 2-3, X has now created prep time for power 4.
^ What I call, Battle Logic, or a 3D debate
And people wonder why the Battlegrounds is looked upon with distaste by some of us.

Also the HTC has been shown to change it's surroundings based on the power/and or mood of the people inside of it. Vegeta changed it when he was inside with Trunks because of his raging mood swings. Buu changed it into an ice wasteland by apparently his mood, as he never did it outside so I will assume it is not an actual power of his. So having it be the default location is rather broken if you take this into account, which of course no one ever does.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

First we need to edit the rule about latest abilities. The main reason why BG is deserted these days is the simple fact that most of the villains/top tiers are ETZs now. Change that rule first and then we will discuss about the rest.

PS: I dont know if the rule has already been changed. I stopped debating way back in Jan when people were spamming ETZ battle threads all over the place.


@ Vorn

It is impossible to have a 3D argument in BG. This isn't like WS where we have a judge to decide the winner. If we go by some logic that somehow enables X to get prep then we will never be able to debate as everyone will be able to create their own scenarios.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Uhm gama, I think it was just a fancy way of saying how a battle would develop. In the battlegrounds, I always tried to do that to a certain point, by considering what powers each character had and thinking how they would react to an attack. Then anyone who opposed my scenario would either argue why mine is flawed or make their own. eventually, it would come down to nipicking each other's arguments.
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 04-19-2011, 11:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
Uhm gama, I think it was just a fancy way of saying how a battle would develop. In the battlegrounds, I always tried to do that to a certain point, by considering what powers each character had and thinking how they would react to an attack. Then anyone who opposed my scenario would either argue why mine is flawed or make their own. eventually, it would come down to nipicking each other's arguments.
Yup. Exactly like WS, at least in the nutshell. The real problem is with the way BG works. There is no way to judge a battle and unless we debate based on "canon material" the threads will keep turning into massive shitstorms.

But I do support your version for testing purpose. The upper tiers should give it a try.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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Originally Posted by gama-sennin View Post
It is impossible to have a 3D argument in BG. This isn't like WS where we have a judge to decide the winner. If we go by some logic that somehow enables X to get prep then we will never be able to debate as everyone will be able to create their own scenarios.
It is perfectly possible. What you all want is some miracle system that correctly proves who can beat who. It doesn't exist.

You have the BG's shitty system of comparing feats and ignoring any actual logic in a battle, and then you have the system of applying actual logic to a debate which usually ends up with people throwing scenarios around at each forever. Both of them have their faults. All this is-is the same song I've seen before. One side likes it the way it is, the other wants the change the rules so it isn't so stupid, then when the progression is shown, they say it's impractical. Well news flash, there is no miracle system. You can either have impractical debates or debates that prove absolutely nothing about the characters.

As it is, anyone that debates in the BG using feats and other statistical crap as the all-ending rule and actually believes that their argument proves something, doesn't care about who can actually beat who. They care about beating the other people in their BG circle to give themself a sense of superiority. The other alternative is that they are too moronic to understand that the current system is a horrible way of judging a characters ability to battle someone. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and will assume it's to feel superior.

It's embarrassing to see people think X can beat Y because X has more feats, or is faster. Ok, sure, X can beat Y if both of them are in a void in space and time, standing in one spot, and only use their feats, and Y doesn't bother to use any of the number of powers they have (lul he got blitz obviously he can't even attempt to do anything that might by sheer luck work). That doesn't prove sheet about the actual characters, that proves you know statistics better than someone else. Sometimes I wonder if BG'ers even realize how utterly stupid that kind of thinking makes the BG as a whole look. And hell, it's not even like logical debates prove much more when it's all speculation and theoretical scenarios, but at least they attempt to apply real logic instead of using a bunch of stats like they were fighting in a damn video game.
I've always found it funny that someone would say to me "Well at least our way has the ability to end a debate instead of going on forever". Yes, good for you, you ended a debate that was pointless because it didn't prove anything about the characters when the whole point of the debate was to prove something about the characters. Both of them are a waste of time in the end, but at least logical debates have the ability to prove something, even if they often times never get to it and even then it isn't all that much

Anyways, rant over. You can either have one system or the other, they can't exist in harmony together. They are two extremes, feats are on the left, logic is on the right, all you can do is shift the scale toward one side more than the other. Though something ironic to keep in mind, logic is just a superior version of feats, which is why I said it's a progression, not a change.

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Old 04-20-2011, 01:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

Who cares about judging battles? Why does there always have to be a winner? Just debate to debate.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:21 AM   #14
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

"Debate to debate"? Where the hell is that logic? You debate to have fun, why else would you do it if it's a chore to you.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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Originally Posted by Vornmusion View Post
It is perfectly possible. What you all want is some miracle system that correctly proves who can beat who. It doesn't exist.

You have the BG's shitty system of comparing feats and ignoring any actual logic in a battle, and then you have the system of applying actual logic to a debate which usually ends up with people throwing scenarios around at each forever. Both of them have their faults. All this is-is the same song I've seen before. One side likes it the way it is, the other wants the change the rules so it isn't so stupid, then when the progression is shown, they say it's impractical. Well news flash, there is no miracle system. You can either have impractical debates or debates that prove absolutely nothing about the characters.

As it is, anyone that debates in the BG using feats and other statistical crap as the all-ending rule and actually believes that their argument proves something, doesn't care about who can actually beat who. They care about beating the other people in their BG circle to give themself a sense of superiority. The other alternative is that they are too moronic to understand that the current system is a horrible way of judging a characters ability to battle someone. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and will assume it's to feel superior.

It's embarrassing to see people think X can beat Y because X has more feats, or is faster. Ok, sure, X can beat Y if both of them are in a void in space and time, standing in one spot, and only use their feats, and Y doesn't bother to use any of the number of powers they have (lul he got blitz obviously he can't even attempt to do anything that might by sheer luck work). That doesn't prove shit about the actual characters, that proves you know statistics better than someone else. Sometimes I wonder if BG'ers even realize how utterly stupid that kind of thinking makes the BG as a whole look. And hell, it's not even like logical debates prove much more when it's all speculation and theoretical scenarios, but at least they attempt to apply real logic instead of using a bunch of stats like they were fighting in a damn video game.
I've always found it funny that someone would say to me "Well at least our way has the ability to end a debate instead of going on forever". Yes, good for you, you ended a debate that was pointless because it didn't prove anything about the characters when the whole point of the debate was to prove something about the characters. Both of them are a waste of time in the end, but at least logical debates have the ability to prove something, even if they often times never get to it and even then it isn't all that much

Anyways, rant over. You can either have one system or the other, they can't exist in harmony together. They are two extremes, feats are on the left, logic is on the right, all you can do is shift the scale toward one side more than the other. Though something ironic to keep in mind, logic is just a superior version of feats, which is why I said it's a progression, not a change.
First of all you type too much. Seriously!

Secondly you are seriously overestimating an average BGer's debating skills.

And as far as the purpose of BG is concerned, its simply to group together hypothetical battles that will never (most likely) become canon. If you allow "scenarios" then, as I said earlier, it wont be much diffferent from the Manga. For example, the scene where the great emotard managed to save his ass by summoning Manda and teleporting in another dimension is a perfectly acceptable scenario but I wont really recommend using it.

BG already uses as much logic as it needs to survive and function without being a total bore. The rules were written long, long ago and now its about time to change those. But we dont need to change the entire system, unless, someone does come up with some miracle system.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:49 AM   #16
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Who cares about judging battles? Why does there always have to be a winner? Just debate to debate.
Ah but Maik, that's the way it has always been. No need to value people's opinions as a whole, just make it so that people can troll eachother by claiming to be more logical or the winner.
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 04-20-2011, 10:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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"Debate to debate"? Where the hell is that logic? You debate to have fun, why else would you do it if it's a chore to you.
That's what "debate to debate" means.

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Ah but Maik, that's the way it has always been. No need to value people's opinions as a whole, just make it so that people can troll eachother by claiming to be more logical or the winner.
The system is retarded.
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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Originally Posted by gama-sennin View Post
Secondly you are seriously overestimating an average BGer's debating skills.

And as far as the purpose of BG is concerned, its simply to group together hypothetical battles that will never (most likely) become canon. If you allow "scenarios" then, as I said earlier, it wont be much diffferent from the Manga. For example, the scene where the great emotard managed to save his ass by summoning Manda and teleporting in another dimension is a perfectly acceptable scenario but I wont really recommend using it.

BG already uses as much logic as it needs to survive and function without being a total bore. The rules were written long, long ago and now its about time to change those. But we dont need to change the entire system, unless, someone does come up with some miracle system.
So, it's not a good system, because the BGer's debating skills? They are smart enough to handle it?

Why not? All this system is focused on right now, is a bunch of people trying to claim superiority over the other by stating facts. Battles are not one-dimensional, anything can happen in battles, which is why people would bring up scenarios. Can a person who can bullet-time, still dodge bullets if he is half dead?

You want a miracle system? Debate with both. Even if you divide them. Have "Feat/Stat Debates" and "Scenario/Logic Debates".
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

No, what debate to debate means is debating for shits because you have nothing else to do with your time. Could have worded that one a bit differently hmm?
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Changing the defaults.

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No, what debate to debate means is debating for shits because you have nothing else to do with your time. Could have worded that one a bit differently hmm?
No better than doing anything else on this site.
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