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Old 05-29-2011, 10:38 PM   #1
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Default Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

He was great bad guy. Unlike every single other bad guy in almost everything ever, once you explain what he's doing is truely wrong, and show him the proof, he gives up once he realizes what he's doing. Was one of the most intelligent characters in Naruto.

Unlike all the other "I'm right i'm right i'm right because I say so" idiot bad guys or "I'm the bad guy because I am" sorts of bad guys.
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

in other words, the bad guy who doesn't know he's a bad guy...i thought that was interesting too...
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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in other words, the bad guy who doesn't know he's a bad guy...i thought that was interesting too...
I just viewed Madara to be like the rest as in "Im the bad guy so everything I do is right! Im never wrong! No one can reason with me!",seriously...thats not intelligent. Sure hes a good ruler and knows how to plan his actions, but hes no where in contrast to Nagato's intelligence. Even Itachi could have been a better villian then Madara.
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Old 05-30-2011, 06:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Technically, Sasuke thinks he's doing the right thing...

Maybe there are some aesthetics to this whole, awesome villain thing :/
Pain had orange/red/grey hair, and he had a sweet purple eyz
He also had years to sleep on his decision...
Sasuke used the XxX formula on a scrap piece of paper to come up with his life long plan
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Typical bad guys are so overrated, its all the same in everything. They dont have second thoughts, they don't have morals, they just have the same thoughts "I am the bad guy because I am." To say Pain was a softie is just ridiculous, he realized what he was doing was absouletly wrong with absolute proof and understanding with Naruto, if that wasnt Naruto then It would have a %100 chance that hed still continue his plan.
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Old 05-30-2011, 11:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

A bad guy who killed everyone in the village only to revive all those he killed just because a 16 year old punk gave him a lecture about feelings and stuff? You think he would have made a better villain than a guy who used the said bad guy along with countless other unknown bad guys?

A story is only as good the villain it has got. Pain was essentially a good guy whose defeat wouldnt have changed much in the Narutoverse. But Madara is made of different stuff. He is ruthless enough to murder his own clan just to create a stock pile of sharingans. His defeat will definitely usher in an era of more TnJs and PnJs instead of mass homicides and cunning schemes.
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Lets the list of villains and say what if they were Main antagonist.

Zabuza

Kakashi and his team beats him. End of the story. Boring.

Gaara

A spoiled brat who felt lonely because of his late-night-sneaky uncle?
Naruto beats him, not much changes compared to the story.

Kisame

A strong fighter who has no real ties between main characters.

Itachi

Good one. But if Sasuke fought him and defeated him, Naruto only gets to watch. If Naruto beats him, Sasuke loses his revenge.
If both fight him and defeat him, neither is happy. Sasuke din`t carry out his revenge, Naruto was not strong enough alone to measure to Itachi.

Orochimaru

Nothing special, mediocre villain if you consider his relation with Naruto and he is not that powerful either. If he layed his hand on Sasuke, killed Kakashi, ravished Sakura, kidnapped his friends, got Sharingan and some new strong powers and summoned dead Naruto`s friends family and others, he`d be fine as a final villain.

Most of Akatsuki

Nothing Special.

Pain

Possibly could be one. Even if Naruto didn`t stop him he the Akatsuki plan would slowly come to fruition. Very slowly, that is. He intended to get Bijuu, take over the market, give Bijuu to others, cause wars, then centuries of forced peace and then finally end of the world, thus creating emptyness he calls peace.

Madara

Unless he is stopped, he gets Bijuu, has complete control, hypnotises the world and has complete power without anyone able to oppose his reign of terror.

He is some sort of a someone who is decently strong, but unstoppable, so he uses to tactics to get even greater powers which others couldn`t stop. He`d have ultimate power, strength among Shinobi, and their world!!!

Sasuke

Cooperating with Madara, for now. Could be the main villain!!!

Kabuto

Cooperating with Madara, to some extent, having his own plans and powers he could very well be the final villain!!!
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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Orochimaru

Nothing special, mediocre villain if you consider his relation with Naruto and he is not that powerful either. If he layed his hand on Sasuke, killed Kakashi, ravished Sakura, kidnapped his friends, got Sharingan and some new strong powers and summoned dead Naruto`s friends family and others, he`d be fine as a final villain.
If you consider his actual relation to Naruto he is by far the most suitable villain. Relation by the symbolic context of the main theme of the story has far more weight than anything any of the other villains have had, this being something Orochimaru had in spades. His entire existence was symbolic to the theme of the manga, it doesn't get any more suitable than that. That he got thrown aside as he did only showed that Kishi didn't know what the hell he was doing.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

good and evil isn't really right and left in this manga, so I think madara fits the spot just as well as nagato
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Really no use of trying to explain.
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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If you consider his actual relation to Naruto he is by far the most suitable villain. Relation by the symbolic context of the main theme of the story has far more weight than anything any of the other villains have had, this being something Orochimaru had in spades. His entire existence was symbolic to the theme of the manga, it doesn't get any more suitable than that. That he got thrown aside as he did only showed that Kishi didn't know what the hell he was doing.
Spot on.

Kishi should have stayed with Orochimaru. No other villain has raised as many goosebumps as Oro did with that evil laugh of his when he was fighting the third. He symbolized everything a true villlain should have; a desire to be the strongest, immortal, a liking for torture, homicides and a serious disrespct for rules and ruthlessness.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Some don't think it's actually Madara.
Orochimaru wasn't meant to be a huge villian. He's created for the role he played and I think he should stay there. I like Kabuto taking on his goals though...
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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Spot on.

Kishi should have stayed with Orochimaru. No other villain has raised as many goosebumps as Oro did with that evil laugh of his when he was fighting the third. He symbolized everything a true villlain should have; a desire to be the strongest, immortal, a liking for torture, homicides and a serious disrespct for rules and ruthlessness.
Orochimaru should've died, though. Great villain, awful character. He attacked his former home because he was bored. Is that not a terrible reason for a character to have for doing anything? Furthermore, Orochimaru's intention was to obtain everything in the universe. Boring. Pretty generic villain reason. The extent of his character was providing the story with a villain to create external conflict and exposition more of the story.

He also lacks a sad backstory. Yeah, his parents died in a war. So he just up and decided he wanted to have everything in the world? For his character, there's never been any explanation provided for his actions beyond simple human greed. Villains who exist just to be villains aren't successful, and I'm not talking about in stories, but in real life as well. Villains who make it to the top aren't villains with the same level of motivation as thieves or thugs. The reason successful villains are complex and have a backstory is because without it, they don't have any proper drive. The backstory gives them that.

Nagato and Itachi had huge backstories, and look where they are now. Dead and under Kabuto's control. But you see, they're under Kabuto's control because Kabuto is a true villain. Kabuto has the backstory and the villainous determination to do whatever it takes, similar to what Orochimaru had that made him a good villain. Kabuto is a better villain than Orochimaru was because he has the same qualities of a proper villain and is a better character as well.

@BlackAngel: Nagato is hardly the only villain in Naruto that's not a villain just because the story requires one, and by a long shot as well.
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

got to ask yourselves a question....I'm not sure what I would answer. Would you like the manga to end as the bad guy seeing the good side and changing his ways during an epic fight/speech? Or the bad guy almost completing what s/he set out to do, but getting forcibly 'stopped' by the good guy in an epic fight/speech.

Pain would have been great, but I think I've swayed to Madara.... we all know that Madara won't change his ways, and we're going to see a 12 page fight between him and whoever.
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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got to ask yourselves a question....I'm not sure what I would answer. Would you like the manga to end as the bad guy seeing the good side and changing his ways during an epic fight/speech? Or the bad guy almost completing what s/he set out to do, but getting forcibly 'stopped' by the good guy in an epic fight/speech.

Pain would have been great, but I think I've swayed to Madara.... we all know that Madara won't change his ways, and we're going to see a 12 page fight between him and whoever.
Why only twelve pages?
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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Why only twelve pages?
agreed.....30 then? Oh and I'm talking chapters sorry, not pages.
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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Orochimaru should've died, though. Great villain, awful character. He attacked his former home because he was bored. Is that not a terrible reason for a character to have for doing anything? Furthermore, Orochimaru's intention was to obtain everything in the universe. Boring. Pretty generic villain reason. The extent of his character was providing the story with a villain to create external conflict and exposition more of the story.

He also lacks a sad backstory. Yeah, his parents died in a war. So he just up and decided he wanted to have everything in the world? For his character, there's never been any explanation provided for his actions beyond simple human greed. Villains who exist just to be villains aren't successful, and I'm not talking about in stories, but in real life as well. Villains who make it to the top aren't villains with the same level of motivation as thieves or thugs. The reason successful villains are complex and have a backstory is because without it, they don't have any proper drive. The backstory gives them that.

Nagato and Itachi had huge backstories, and look where they are now. Dead and under Kabuto's control. But you see, they're under Kabuto's control because Kabuto is a true villain. Kabuto has the backstory and the villainous determination to do whatever it takes, similar to what Orochimaru had that made him a good villain. Kabuto is a better villain than Orochimaru was because he has the same qualities of a proper villain and is a better character as well.

@BlackAngel: Nagato is hardly the only villain in Naruto that's not a villain just because the story requires one, and by a long shot as well.
He attacked his former home because he carried a burning hatred for it. Just like Sasuke, Madara, and (partially) Nagato.

I agree with Itachi having an effective backstory, but Nagato? It's near the same as Orochimaru's. Close people dies at war in their childhood, so they gain an ambition to do good which ultimately drives them to do evil. For example, Oro was at first aiming to revive his dead parents.

Sorry, but Kabuto has no back story. Other than being Orochimaru's sidekick for the first half of the series, of course.

But yeah, now we hit the good: Kabuto is the best villain in the series!
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

Kabuto having a back story??? All we know about is that he was the only survivor of a battle and he was a spy of akatsuki.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

If Kabuto is the final villian that will be sweet. I have always thought of him as a side-kick, and if he is the final villian then he will have stepped up. But Kishi won't let him be the villian because Naruto doesn't really have anything personal against him.

The final villian has to be Orochimaru or Madara.

Orochimaru would work because he is the one who started the whole Sasuke leaving thing. So Naruto has something against him. Sasuke has already killed him so...there is the problem. It would make sense if Kabuto brought him back because he is loyal, though.

Madara would make sense because he is Madara. He has the strongest powers, leads the strongest army and Naruto and Sasuke both could have something against him. Naruto has the whole "killing my friends" thing against him. Sasuke is Sasuke, so he does what he wants.
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Pain would have been a better main antagonist then Madara.

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Originally Posted by Vatanui AKA Pride View Post
He attacked his former home because he carried a burning hatred for it. Just like Sasuke, Madara, and (partially) Nagato.

I agree with Itachi having an effective backstory, but Nagato? It's near the same as Orochimaru's. Close people dies at war in their childhood, so they gain an ambition to do good which ultimately drives them to do evil. For example, Oro was at first aiming to revive his dead parents.

Sorry, but Kabuto has no back story. Other than being Orochimaru's sidekick for the first half of the series, of course.

But yeah, now we hit the good: Kabuto is the best villain in the series!
Sorry, I don't recall that. The way I remember it, Orochimaru made some metaphor as to how a windmill that doesn't turn is really boring, so he wanted to set it in motion by destroying the Leaf/killing the Hokage. Might've been an anime-only thing, but even if he did hate the Leaf, he's still had less of a reason for it than any of the examples you mentioned. Sasuke didn't hate the Leaf until Madara told him the truth. He just left for power.

It's quite different. They both lost their parents at a young age, and it's how both of their backstories start. But Nagato's hits off from there, whereas Orochimaru's is lacking. Orochimaru's parents are the only people close to him that he lost, if my recollecton serves me right. I also don't recall Orochimaru having tried to revive his parents. (It's been a while since I read the original Naruto, I might be missing some details.) However, Nagato was different. Shortly after Nagato lost his parents, his extremely rare and unique Kekkei Genkai kicked in. After his dog died as a result of a battle between Konoha and Ame, he was taught by a Konoha ninja that he himself said he couldn't forgive. Jiraiya was convinced that Nagato was someone prophecized to bring peace, and after leaving Jiraiya, he started a peaceful group. It ended with the closest friend he had ever had dying and him being unable to stop it, and his allies from Akatsuki were all killed one by one. He eventually adopted the goal he had as an Akatsuki and believed himself a god. The main contrast is that the way I see it, Orochimaru's main motivation is still greed, whereas Nagato's was based off of a strong emotional reaction he had to past events concerning peace. The death of Orochimaru's parents didn't lead him to want everything in the universe, and assuming that's true, I can't recall anything else that sets it up.

Kabuto's monologue to Naruto about being raised by the enemy, living the life of a spy, having no home and no sense of identity, finding a home with Orochimaru only to lose his home and himself some time later. It's not the best backstory of the series, but it's similar to Naruto's since Naruto spent almost his entire childhood without having an attachment to anyone and being alone, and since Kabuto was a spy, he must've gone through the same thing. He states his former dependence on Orochimaru's power and his inspiration from Naruto to be his reason for grafting Orochimaru's skin onto himself and mastering/surpassing all of Oro's jutsu. It's at least better than being a villain just to be a villain, if nothing else. For that matter, we don't know what his current goal is or why he has it.

In my opinion, because he isn't just a simple villain. No matter how small, he does have a backstory, and he does have a villainous intent and air around him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAngel View Post
Kabuto having a back story??? All we know about is that he was the only survivor of a battle and he was a spy of akatsuki.
See the last two paragraphs of my above response.

@puppetmasterpossession: I'll respond to you later.
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