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Old 03-27-2011, 04:22 PM   #41
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Or maybe cheaper to have the US go it for you. I don't see Italy or Spain anywhere in this war that's where most of the refugee are going. I don't think the refuggess would cause political unrest, only add to their already massive deficits. The US has only gotten involved in these wars because we choose to. There was really no reason to get involved in Kosovo except Madeline Albright had a grudge against Serbia. Bosnia was at least NATO, even if the US again carried the burnt of the military costs. Many of the countries may have been colonies in the past, but it is the breakup of the colonies into the arbitrary countries that has caused the real problems. Eventually a dictators took over to quell the unrest of the various tribes and religions. If we wanted to stop unrest, why not just support the dictators to the hilt? There is no reason that these rebels are any better than Qaddafi, we are blindly supporting them. At least and Egypt and Tunsia, it was mainly not violent on the protesters' side.

Yes, Sarkozy has egg on his face that would be the reason he wants to fight. Germany is reluctant to get involved at least more so than the US.
Now these arguments are neocon twaddle. Lebanon has democracy, run by a terrorist group Hezbollah. The Gaza a strip elected terrorist to run themselves as well. Not to mention, we have no reason to know if the rebels will run a democracy. To force areal democray, the US would have to do what we did in Iraq. You really want to do that again? SUre their are many less people in Libya (about 10-12 mil I believe), but Iraq had a functioning middle class.
We had already prevent terrorism from Libya with the Iraq war. The likely outcome now is more terrorism. Either Qaddafi will remain in part of the country and get revenge on the Western world or the this weak rebel run alliance will be powerless to stop terrorism from forming in their country. They may even not want to stop it depending on who leads. I have no doubt that the rebels will remain in the East, but they are stymied from moving beyond that unless the Western forces stop attacking the rest of Libya. Certainly Sarkozy wants to do this, but there is not reason the US needs to be a part of it.
It wouldn't really be cheaper, actually. France has its own outsized military commitment, which you seem to be insinuating is a trifle, but it is at considerable expense for the French. I really don't think it's cheaper than enforcing immigration laws. And they've had violent riots in recent years because of social unrest concerning immigrants and policy towards them.

As far as Kosovo is concerned, there was definitely a reason, and I've already stated it. European stability is a vital national interest. You seem to believe that genocide and mass exodus on the borders of allies is of no concern or couldn't effect us. I just think history proves you wrong there. And why not support dictators to the hilt? Ever heard of a little country called Iran? That's why. We supported the Shah until the end, and our support for him helped poison our relationship with Iran.

And we were in a holding pattern with Qaddafi concerning his sponsorship of terrorism. He could have gone back to it at any time, because he is an absolute ruler. Once a grassroots uprising was underway, it was in our interests to see it succeed if possible.

As far as the other "democracies" you cited, I don't agree with your analysis, since I deliberately didn't say any sort of (fake) democracy but institutional democracies. The Gaza strip is a horrible example, since they've only had one election and I doubt they will have another that is free. Many dictatorships start with elections, for instance, take Nazi Germany. Permanent presidencies are not democracies, as Africa should inform you. As for Lebanon, it is a puppet state of Syria (a police state), where Hezbollah is essentially a Syrian proxy with Iranian support. Ergo, it doesn't count.

And I'm not a neocon. I just support American ideals. Even so, I didn't support the Iraq War because I wanted to plant democracy there, but because Hussein showed an addiction to serial miscalculation which had led to two wars (one involving use of chemical weapons) and years of involvement without resolution, and he had already broken armistice several times. Additionally, there was a movement to kill off sanctions, which essentially painted us into a corner. But that doesn't mean I don't want us to support democracy when it has a fighting chance from a grassroots movement, and it does in Libya, because it always does when a dictator falls, even if it doesn't always work. Imposing democracy through occupation isn't always required, nor is it always possible. Democracy is more likely to succeed when the locals are willing to die for freedom. Like I said, we shall see.
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

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Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie View Post
It wouldn't really be cheaper, actually. France has its own outsized military commitment, which you seem to be insinuating is a trifle, but it is at considerable expense for the French. I really don't think it's cheaper than enforcing immigration laws. And they've had violent riots in recent years because of social unrest concerning immigrants and policy towards them.
Numbers please, if you are going to content that. Everythign is atrifle compared to the US. It does spend more on armed forces than the rest of the world combined, but I have not implied that at all. Only that they will use what we give them, which at this point is more than everyone else. They have, but the immigrants are not going to France. Then again once an immigrant gets into any member of the EU they can go anywhere.


Quote:
As far as Kosovo is concerned, there was definitely a reason, and I've already stated it. European stability is a vital national interest. You seem to believe that genocide and mass exodus on the borders of allies is of no concern or couldn't effect us. I just think history proves you wrong there.
Quite unlikely. Possibly true of the Bosnian war, but not Kosovo.
Quote:
Concerning the rebels supposedly not being different then Qaddafi, that's wrong too. Qaddafi is a delusional mass murderer; there is no evidence that the rebels are any such thing. You are leaping to unfounded conclusions here. And why not support dictators to the hilt? Ever heard of a little country called Iran? That's why.
I did not say they were, I said we don't know. Unintended consequences and all that. Qaddafi is also an known and was contained. NO guarantee this will be better. Again, weakness of the rebels can be just as dangerous in terms of terrorism.
Are you supporting my argument here? Jimmah did not support the Shah of Iran, and we ended up with Iran as it is. You often have to take the lesser of two evils. At elast the Shah allowed a modern society and a middle class to exist.
Quote:
And we were in a holding pattern with Qaddafi concerning his sponsorship of terrorism. He could have gone back to it at any time, because he is an absolute ruler. Once a grassroots uprising was underway, it was in our interests to see it succeed if possible.
There is no evidence Qaddafi was going back to terrorism. He was happy enough living off of his people. Depends on the result. If it could have worked without our help more power to them, but in this case it was not going to happen. As Libya is not Iran, there is no national interst to help these protests besides saying go get em, whish Barack didn't even do in Iran to his own shame.
Quote:
As far as the other "democracies" you cited, I don't agree with your analysis, since I deliberately didn't say any sort of (fake) democracy but institutional democracies. The Gaza strip is a horrible example, since they've only had one election and I doubt they will have another that is free. Many dictatorships start with elections, for instance, take Nazi Germany. Permanent presidencies are not democracies, as Africa should inform you. As for Lebanon, it is a puppet state of Syria (a police state), where Hezbollah is essentially a Syrian proxy with Iranian support. Ergo, it doesn't count. And I'm not a neocon. I just support American ideals. I didn't support the Iraq War because I wanted to plant democracy there, but because Hussein showed an addiction to serial miscalculation which had led to two wars and years of involvement, and he had already broken armistice several times. But that doesn't mean I don't want us to support democracy when it has a fighting chance from a grassroots movement, and it does in Libya, because it always does when a dictator falls, even if it doesn't always work. Imposing democracy through occupation isn't always required, nor is it always possible. It is more likely to succeed when the locals are willing to die for freedom. Like I said, we shall see.
While you have a valid point, there can be no institutional democracies unless there exist for extended periods of time. That is only from the past can a you find a "institutional" democracy. Libya will be no different unless it last. One man, one vote, one time democracies are indeed no better than dictators, but to insure that doesn't happen to Libya would require an effort like that in Iraq.

Lebanon is no longer a puppet state, and the leaders have changed. The Cedar revolution did happen. Very similar to the unrest happening now.

The Iraq war made sense because Saddam was a direct threat to the entire region, and insinuated that he indeed did have WMDs. Turns out he didn't, but it did lets the US fight terrorists groups directly. In a funny way, it was very useful to the US. Whatever happens to Libya won't matter beyond Libya, but the US can royally screw itself over by getting involved.

If we want a country to make sure democracy works we should go to the Ivory Coast where the former leader was voted out. He just needs to be removed before violence does erupt. But no one is paying attention to that, so we will waste our time here.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:58 PM   #43
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

LIIIIIIBYAAAAAA!!!!! I don't get it.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

Look, it is Gama. A bit disappointed in his post though.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:41 AM   #45
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

Perhaps, if I may be allowed this side-bar, he is injecting reason?
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:43 AM   #46
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

How is not getting it reason? Mere ignorance is now reasonable?
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:55 AM   #47
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

I used to think as you do, Wooster. But look around you: several people must have thought differently, because idiots abound and it is somehow illegal to destroy them. I ask you, how is THAT reasonable?
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

Better to not know than know but still come to the wrong conclusion?
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

I don't know.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:08 PM   #50
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

You are worse than Mr. Sticky 005 to use his formal name.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:05 PM   #51
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

The only thing Libya is doing is proving how partisan the US has become.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: No-Fly Zone Over Libya

How so?
If anything it has reformed the divisions in interesting ways.
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