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Old 01-22-2011, 12:00 PM   #61
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Default Re: Prostitution

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi uzumaki View Post
It's not about what you want....it's about what you need. heck if I need money I will clean any day. No I don't like it either, but you have to make sacrifices.
But I think that cleaning is wrong and that you shouldn't be able to. I am attempting to prove that my concept of morallity is a poor excuse to strip you of the right to make a decision.
Quote:

I mean genetically passed on, which most diseases do. Yeah but all girls are smart, not all girls know about condoms. Think about Africa, those girls have no knowledge of some of the things going on. No she shouldn't die. Being careless might have not been her fault. what if she was never taught some of those things? Death is not always the solution to everyone.
You keep opening up the debate and bringing in completely different issues. It's hard to cope with the SCOPE of things you are trying to tie to your argument. AIDS in africa has NOTHING to do with a talk about NON-THIRD WORLD CONTRIES legalizing prostitution. Women in africa are raped, they don't typically have choices and are outside the scope of this debate.


Quote:
That's what stopped you. As for the prostitution, kids see that the parents earn a lot of money, get a lot of stuff. Sometimes the parents might not even tell them they caught a disease or something.


I get the feeling you have never seen prostitution from a childs standpoint. Because I find your jumps in logic to be ridiculous.

I'm not even attempting a follow up, as I don't think I can offer one without getting upset.


I am done with this particular debate. You are introducing morality in an offhanded manner without actually debating what role morality plays in this decision and discussion.

You are changing and obfuscating your opinions with half backtracking and redirection, and are continually throwing in half thought ideas and ever expanding the SCOPE of your argument without actively defending my attacks on your main points. This is more a meandering discussion than a debate. I thought I was debating.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:06 PM   #62
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Default Re: Prostitution

KU is still very young, right? I don't think she completely understands this issue. She appears to be stuck in her mindset and refuses to take other's opinions into account. I'm really young too but I've managed to somehow become involved in a wide array of adult situations whether directly or indirectly so I at least have solid opinions and evidence.

KU seems to have made her decisions based off other people's opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:06 PM   #63
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths View Post
Mandatory condom use/ testing would bring riot to the streets of fraternities everywhere. You'd be infringing upon people's rights to privacy and personal choice.

Agreed on amping sentences to felony charges. Deterrence usually works, unless you read "The Scarlet Letter".

Again, I agree. It's making sure those rights and rules are not bipassed or broken that makes the whole thing a major issue.
Saying "we can't make something legal with restrictions" is a rather silly way to argue this.

People drink underaged, yet alcohol is legal. People speed yet we can legally drive cars.

I proposed a system where prostitution COULD be legalized, taxed, and regulated. And I think that system would work. Would some people avoid the legal system, of course, just like every other law. But that does not justify preventing it from being legalized.

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Which doesn't stop mandatory testing/condom use IN PRIVATE from being a violation of rights. From a business standpoint, it can be implemented. Not in one's private life.
Ones private life cannot be debated. You can do ANYTHING in private, and so long as you are not caught, it is, by definition legal (I had a judge give me that line.)

It's only when it is done in open, or as a business that the laws realistically apply, which is what I thought we were debating.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:08 PM   #64
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Default Re: Prostitution

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KU is still very young, right? I don't think she completely understands this issue. She appears to be stuck in her mindset and refuses to take other's opinions into account. I'm really young too but I've managed to somehow become involved in a wide array of adult situations whether directly or indirectly so I at least have solid opinions and evidence.

KU seems to have made her decisions based off other people's opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I had thought she was 17 or 18.

My issues with her inability to actually DEBATE me are moot if she is 14 or 15. Most people haven't been taught how to actually debate at that age. I'll feel like an ass if she is a youngun.

But I feel she brings many assumptions, as well as a narrow-minded approach to morallity. and is running this like a discussion, not a debate.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:10 PM   #65
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Originally Posted by Apa View Post
KU is still very young, right? I don't think she completely understands this issue. She appears to be stuck in her mindset and refuses to take other's opinions into account. I'm really young too but I've managed to somehow become involved in a wide array of adult situations whether directly or indirectly so I at least have solid opinions and evidence.

KU seems to have made her decisions based off other people's opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
young, I'm not sure.
I do understand the issue but not to it's full length.

I do make my decision based on others due to the fact I don't have experience in it. I have never seen it, been in it, or known anyone, but is this not where opinions are let out? where others learn from others?
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:11 PM   #66
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Default Re: Prostitution

I haven't been in the debate forum for a while, but I thought the rules of debate applied. I was operating on the assumption that people here actually debated (which is it's own skill)
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:11 PM   #67
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Originally Posted by Toma RNK View Post
Saying "we can't make something legal with restrictions" is a rather silly way to argue this.

People drink underaged, yet alcohol is legal. People speed yet we can legally drive cars.

I proposed a system where prostitution COULD be legalized, taxed, and regulated. And I think that system would work. Would some people avoid the legal system, of course, just like every other law. But that does not justify preventing it from being legalized.



Ones private life cannot be debated. You can do ANYTHING in private, and so long as you are not caught, it is, by definition legal (I had a judge give me that line.)

It's only when it is done in open, or as a business that the laws realistically apply, which is what I thought we were debating.
That's not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that the ENFORCEMENT of those restrictions is difficult. It's WHY people speed and drink and perform illegal activity -- we can't keep up with it all.

Which is very, very similar to legalizing marijuana. There's a lot of COULDs and very few WOULDs when it comes to setting forth laws, rules, and restrictions involving previously illegal activities. I COULD put a tax on prostitutes having an STD while being in the business, but as to whether or not I actually WOULD is another issue entirely. The incredible amount of legal mumbo-jumbo and moral double standards involved is gargantuan when it comes to these things.


Exactly. That's what we are debating. I was just saying that the illegality of prostitution comes into play when you make the change from private to public, from personal to business.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:13 PM   #68
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Default Re: Prostitution

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I had thought she was 17 or 18.

My issues with her inability to actually DEBATE me are moot if she is 14 or 15. Most people haven't been taught how to actually debate at that age. I'll feel like an ass if she is a youngun.

But I feel she brings many assumptions, as well as a narrow-minded approach to morallity. and is running this like a discussion, not a debate.
I think I remember her being around 13. I'm 15 but as I said I actually have been connected to a lot of those situations directly or indirectly such as drugs, prostitution, rape, and a murder.

I personally think I'm a rather good debater.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:19 PM   #69
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths View Post
That's not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that the ENFORCEMENT of those restrictions is difficult. It's WHY people speed and drink and perform illegal activity -- we can't keep up with it all.

Which is very, very similar to legalizing marijuana. There's a lot of COULDs and very few WOULDs when it comes to setting forth laws, rules, and restrictions involving previously illegal activities. I COULD put a tax on prostitutes having an STD while being in the business, but as to whether or not I actually WOULD is another issue entirely. The incredible amount of legal mumbo-jumbo and moral double standards involved is gargantuan when it comes to these things.


Exactly. That's what we are debating. I was just saying that the illegality of prostitution comes into play when you make the change from private to public, from personal to business.
Then I was unclear on my punishment set.

To be a prostitute you must have a license. License is valid for X days (the number is open for debate but I insist no longer than 7 days) and in event of a condom break license is suspended until testing is done.

To renew the license you must be tested found disease free.

Condom use is mandatory. If you are at your work location, or at your home and accepting money/gifts for sex and you fail to use a condom, you may never again renew your license and face a fee.

Prostituting without a license is a felony. Low end felony for first time offenders.

Prostituting while knowingly carrying a disease with or without a license is a felony and should be treated like manslaughter or murder depending on the disease.

These charges should be filed on both the "johns and janes." Always card, always verify license.

Intelligent people will go to the houses of prostitution, dumb ones will do things illegally.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:27 PM   #70
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Then I was unclear on my punishment set.

To be a prostitute you must have a license. License is valid for X days (the number is open for debate but I insist no longer than 7 days) and in event of a condom break license is suspended until testing is done.

To renew the license you must be tested found disease free.

Condom use is mandatory. If you are at your work location, or at your home and accepting money/gifts for sex and you fail to use a condom, you may never again renew your license and face a fee.

Prostituting without a license is a felony. Low end felony for first time offenders.

Prostituting while knowingly carrying a disease with or without a license is a felony and should be treated like manslaughter or murder depending on the disease.

These charges should be filed on both the "johns and janes." Always card, always verify license.

Intelligent people will go to the houses of prostitution, dumb ones will do things illegally.
The red part is the only thing that could be an issue. The idea that someone "knowingly" carries a lethal STD is so legally ambiguous it hurts.

The idea of a person being criminally charged for being medically harmful can and will be seen as a violation of privacy, personal knowledge, personal choice, etc. I think that a person who HAS BEEN INFORMED they have a disease must carry this information with them along with said license.

They the must present both the license, medical history, any diseases [along with risks and responsibilities] to the customer.

Otherwise, I agree.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:31 PM   #71
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Default Re: Prostitution

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The red part is the only thing that could be an issue. The idea that someone "knowingly" carries a lethal STD is so legally ambiguous it hurts.

The idea of a person being criminally charged for being medically harmful can and will be seen as a violation of privacy, personal knowledge, personal choice, etc. I think that a person who HAS BEEN INFORMED they have a disease must carry this information with them along with said license.

They the must present both the license, medical history, any diseases [along with risks and responsibilities] to the customer.

Otherwise, I agree.
After being informed of a positive test result would be the basis for my punishments. Right to medical privacy is willingly waived when applying for a permit. Same when you with to engage in the act, it is perfectly legal for a house of prostitution to require proof before allowing someone to purchase.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:33 PM   #72
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Default Re: Prostitution

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After being informed of a positive test result would be the basis for my punishments. Right to medical privacy is willingly waived when applying for a permit. Same when you with to engage in the act, it is perfectly legal for a house of prostitution to require proof before allowing someone to purchase.
More or less what I was going for, but in far fewer words.

I think it's safe to say that prostitution has been around since ancient times, will be around far into the future, and we may as well do as much as we can to make it safer and more reasonable while we have the chance.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:02 PM   #73
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Default Re: Prostitution

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But I would disagree with whomever suggested against the age restrictions (Vorn? I can't recall, oh well). There indeed are wayward skanks of a younger age, but many of the underage prostitutes are essentially press-ganged into life-long service. It's basically prolonged rape and kidnapping, and legitimizing it would be reason enough for me to launch my own private, bloody crusade. After all, who's to stop a child's parents or guardian from "employing" him/her in prostitution against his/her wishes? And how would you prove he/she was or wasn't forced into it? It's sick enough that it already happens occasionally, imagine how it would escalate when people have less to fear from law enforcement.
Which also applies to adults.

I'm against age restrictions because as I said before, making something illegal to a certain age group is not going to stop that age group from doing it. If it was legal then they could have the protection that the adults have. Otherwise, for underage people, it would be no different than it is now.

And many parents all over the world sell their childrens services either for profit or because they are in trouble either with money or with a group of people. It's common to the point there's a term for people that go on vacations to other countries specifically to use these children because it's hard as hell to find such services in the US. While we can't do anything currently about other countries, we can at least provide a decent system of protection and rights for people here. Adults or otherwise.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Prostitution

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Which also applies to adults.

I'm against age restrictions because as I said before, making something illegal to a certain age group is not going to stop that age group from doing it. If it was legal then they could have the protection that the adults have. Otherwise, for underage people, it would be no different than it is now.

And many parents all over the world sell their childrens services either for profit or because they are in trouble either with money or with a group of people. It's common to the point there's a term for people that go on vacations to other countries specifically to use these children because it's hard as hell to find such services in the US. While we can't do anything currently about other countries, we can at least provide a decent system of protection and rights for people here. Adults or otherwise.
A decent system that starts with flame-broiling of Pimps of under-aged prostitutes, yes. As terrible as it is for adults to be forced into what's essentially sex slavery, it is worse for a child for so many obvious reasons.

I suppose my own viewpoint's too biased for a fair debate, but if we're going to regulate prostitution at all, we have to deal with the very seedy side of it too, and not half-assed either. As for those parents you mentioned, I hope they are repaid in kind before the end. That's just @#%*&#$@^ disgusting.
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