Naruto Tier List - Group Debate

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by Vivi

Muu for Legend Tier.

I will after his fight with Onoki. He's definitely legend but I just want to know WHERE in legend.

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

Okay seriously, what?

Tsunade>Hidan
Tsunade>Jugo
Tsunade>Kimimaro
Tsunade>Chiyo
Tsunade>Mangetsu Hozuki
Tsunade>Darui
Tsunade>Mei Terumi

And I assume that since Mifune is above Hanzo that this is going predominantly by feats?

Tsunade>Hanzo
Tsunade>Mifune
Tsunade>Sasori
Tsunade>Butterfly Chouji [Rashinsho?]

Especially with preparation, you realise with preparation the woman has access to antidotes, sleeping bombs, poisons, and the ability to channel her own healing chakra into Katsuyu? Fighting and healing simultaneously would be all too possible. A mini Sozou Saisei effect, without the drastic after effects.

Furthermore, regardless of what Deidara said about Sasori being stronger than him, this is clearly not the case. Being able to take into mid air and drop C2 and C3 explosives would destroy the former. Deidara needs to be a lot higher imo, I'd say peak him at the top of the list.

And I don't know why Tobirama is placed so high. Granted he was powerful, but stronger than someone like Hiruzen Sarutobi? God of Shinobi and the strongest Hokage of all time? Tobirama required assistance of the Second Raikage to be able to fend off Kin and Gin, and even then he was left on the verge of death. The mans Edo Tensei feats also weren't impressive either. He has an anonymous S/T technique but we don't even know if its offensive, even Tenten has a S/T technique. And yes, he has Edo Tensei, but the time it takes to summon mid battle, and his lack of skill in using it [baring in mind he can't even use it to the extent that Orochimaru could] certainly doesn't place him as high as he is.

And as for Konan, she has 600 billion sheets of explosive paper which explode for 10 minutes, enough to kill Madara Uchiha were it not for pulling Izanagi out his ass. Why is she not higher? She should be well up in the Legend Tier

At any rate, I believe the Kage Tier list should look something like this:

Spoiler:

Deidara
Kin-Gin Bros
Kakuzu
Might Guy
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Tsunade
Kakashi Hatake
Sasori
Tobirama Senju
Chōji Akimichi - Butterfly Mode
Mifune
Hanzo
Mei Terumi
Darui
Mangetsu Hōzuki
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Jūgo
Hidan

Wow. Tsunade > Kakashi? You do realize Kabuto beat her, right? How how how does she counter Dog Summons, Raikiri, or most of all Kamui? Not to mention she's strictly Taijutsu with no experience against an Uchiha, so his eye is going to have a field day.

Anyway.

Tsunade > Hidan - Agreed.

Tsunade > Jugo - Agreed.

Tsunade > Kimmimaro - Absolutely not.

Tsunade > Chiyo - Hell no.

Tsunade > Mangetsu - feats yes.

Tsunade > Darui - Not at all. Most of his attacks are ranged, she's pretty screwed there. Can't counter black lightning in any way.

Tsunade > Mei Terumi - Depends on the circumstance. Open field and Katsuyu, absolutely. Anywhere else though, Tsunade can't ever get close.

Tsunade > Sasori - You are out of your mind. Iron Sand, 100 Puppets, transferable hearts, poison poison poison....No.

Tsunade > Hanzo/Mifune - I think this one is laughable for hype alone. He beat all 3 Sannin, that's a known fact and I know you're aware of it. It's possible she has a counter to the poison, but Salamander > Katsuyu. I mean sometimes you just completely ignore hype in every way, but in a case like this, he beat her AND OROCHIMARU AND JIRAIYA at once. So what is the weakest Sannin going to do alone? Oro and Jiraiya became much much much stronger, she didn't. As for Mifune, he basically stops every move she has before she ever touches him. You can't doubt Mifune's speed because Hanzo had body flicker and Mifune kept up with him. Tsunade has zero impressive speed feats. Please don't even try to counter this.

Tsunade > Choji - Spiky Butterfly Human Boulder, all I gotta say.




Please feel free to argue, unless it's about Hanzo because lawl.

[Super Sanin 3]

Wow. Tsunade > Kakashi? You do realize Kabuto beat her, right? How how how does she counter Dog Summons, Raikiri, or most of all Kamui? Not to mention she's strictly Taijutsu with no experience against an Uchiha, so his eye is going to have a field day.

Is Tsunade restricted from Katsuya here?

[TheBlackChidori]

No. But Kakashi's not restricted from Kamui. Is Katsuyu going to regenerate Tsunade's head from another dimension?

[Super Sanin 3]

Uhh hate the Kamui argument, IC Kakashi only uses it to teleport attacks away, i mean if he wanted to why didn't he Kamui Deva path's head off?

[Inuyasha]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

Spoiler:

Mifune reacted to a single strike from Sasuke iirc. He also has the speed to interupt someone when they are mid way through a handseal, so he's certainly fast. But he wouldn't be blitzing the vast majority of the people on that list. Also bare in mind how rare it is for someone to actually be blitzed repeatedly in Naruto. In particular, someone like Tsunade. Her reaction speed is great enough to react to incredibly fast attacks from Manda [Chapter 170 page 14], Orochimaru [Chapter 168 page 16-17] [Chapter 170 page 11-12; note that her eyes are closed in page 11] and even Deva Path. Through activating her Sozou Saisei between when Pein uses Chou Shinra Tensei and when it hits Konoha. [Chapter 429 page 10-11] [Chapter 430 page 9]. She has great reaction feats and equally as great movement ones. And yes, Katsuyu has a lot more uses than Orochimaru and Jiraiyas summons.

And yeh, exactly! Tobirama was surely intelligent and great with suitons, and I don't doubt he made a strong leader, but he doesn't compete with most of the stronger ninja or Kage in Naruto currently.

But all characters have preparation according to the OP xD He has a huge supply of clay in this scenario.

My problem with Konan is that her paper projectiles have never shown to be that fast, any decently fast shinobi should be able to avoid them. I only see her as amazingly hax with preparation for her Paper god technique, which of course she has in this scenario o.o

I'd say she is a force to be reckoned with and can beat most on your list but not all like for Kimmi's bone and skin reconstruction insures his victory he was crushed by Giant Sand burial and lucked out based on his protection. Tsunade's punches and kicks are enough to kill but not a man who can protect himself like that. Ok so her reaction speed is fairly good but that doesn't mean speed people won't be trouble for her she'll definetly have a tough time dealing with them being faster.

Yea he's the low man on the totem poll of Kage but ET of course makes all seem unfairly powerful.

Yea I forgot that in any case he's definitely very powerful and I'm not saying this because he's cool I do like him but I wouldn't go so far enough to say I'm a big fan of his I'm just a normal fan and I just think he should be a little more credited.

So with prep the mine field is usable always unless stated otherwise?
Even without prep she can still suffocate, cut, ect.

[Lady Tsunade]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Wow. Tsunade > Kakashi? You do realize Kabuto beat her, right? How how how does she counter Dog Summons, Raikiri, or most of all Kamui? Not to mention she's strictly Taijutsu with no experience against an Uchiha, so his eye is going to have a field day.

Yes. Kabuto used her hemophobia to immobilise her and then kicked her around until Naruto stepped in stopping him via plot. Current Tsunade vs Part I Kabuto would be a WHOLE other story. Dog Summons aren't fast iirc, she can avoid and one shot all of them, or else Katsuyu divisions deal with them in overwhelming numbers. Raikiri can be tanked, and given how highly durable Tsunade is, she can simply grab Kakashis arm as Haku does in Chapter 30 page 17, and retaliate with something as quick and powerful as a finger flick or a sleeping bomb, while Kakashis arm is wedged inside her. Raikiri = Dead Kakashi.

Kamui spells trouble for Tsunade without a doubt, but as long as she has Katsuyu out she should be safe. On top of the Summon, she will either be too small a target to aim at [Chapter 170 page 12] or not within Kakashis field of vision assuming he is too close to the summon. [Chapter 166 page 2]. Anyway, Kakashi isn't significantly faster than Tsunade, blitzing her isn't going to be easy.

Tsunade > Kimmimaro - Absolutely not.

Certainly. Katsuyu could body slam him, or Acid Slime him, or split into thousands of smaller divisions and attempt to absorb him in overwhelming numbers.

Tsunade > Chiyo - Hell no.

What has the old woman got on Katsuyu? Acid Slime would decimate her puppets when used in succession. Tsunade is also a lot faster than Sasoris puppets, or even Sasori himself, who Chiyo fails to react to on occasion. And with preparation, Tsunade can heal and fight simultaneously thanks to Katsuyu divisions, no matter what damage Chiyo inflicts Tsunade can recover back from it.

Tsunade > Darui - Not at all. Most of his attacks are ranged, she's pretty screwed there. Can't counter black lightning in any way.

And likewise Darui can't withstand having a Boss Summon summoned on top of him, or even avoid Acid Slime in succession, especially with smaller Katsuyu divisions serving distractions. In close range there is no significant speed gap between him and the Princess from what I remember.

Anyway, doesn't Darui use Black Panther to take out many opponents at once? It's not something he start a battle with in a 1v1 match. With preparation Tsunade should be able to recover the damage this technique inflicts anyway.

Tsunade > Mei Terumi - Depends on the circumstance. Open field and Katsuyu, absolutely. Anywhere else though, Tsunade can't ever get close.

Tsunade jumped about a third of Konoha in only a second or so. Covering large distances quickly is absolutely no problem for her.

Tsunade > Sasori - You are out of your mind. Iron Sand, 100 Puppets, transferable hearts, poison poison poison....No.

Iron Sand Blocks can repelled by Tsunades strength, Iron Sand World Order - if it takes effect anything like it did against Sakura, a few scratches are hardly going to slow her down, of course she always has Katsuyu to act as a shield. And poison is no problem since Tsunade has antidotes with the preparation you gave her. 100 puppets are slowly decimated by Katsuyus Acid Slime, those that get too close to Tsunade can be destroyed by her though. Baring in mind her taijutsu and reflexes>>>Sakuras, who manages to destroy a few herself. In normal circumstances, I wouldn't say Tsunade>Sasori. But with preparation? Hells to the yes.

Tsunade > Hanzo/Mifune - I think this one is laughable for hype alone. He beat all 3 Sannin, that's a known fact and I know you're aware of it. It's possible she has a counter to the poison, but Salamander > Katsuyu. I mean sometimes you just completely ignore hype in every way, but in a case like this, he beat her AND OROCHIMARU AND JIRAIYA at once. So what is the weakest Sannin going to do alone? Oro and Jiraiya became much much much stronger, she didn't. As for Mifune, he basically stops every move she has before she ever touches him. You can't doubt Mifune's speed because Hanzo had body flicker and Mifune kept up with him. Tsunade has zero impressive speed feats. Please don't even try to counter this.

Oh, well given that Mifune was above Hanzo, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru were waay above Hanzo, I assumed Hanzos placement was solely based on feats. Granted on hype Hanzo would destroy Tsunade. But if hype is significantly included Hanzo should be a hell of a lot of higher on the list. Also, Tsunade has plenty of highly impressive speed feats, I don't consider Mifunes considerably better than hers, he can interupt handseals, which is great for him and everything, but realistically so could any other shinobi if they so wished, using Body Flicker - which is instant.

Tsunade > Choji - Spiky Butterfly Human Boulder, all I gotta say.

Why would Katsuyus highly durable body fail to shield Tsunade? Anyway, Choujis huge so jumping on top of him should be relatively easy, from there a Rashinsho ends it.

[Super Sanin 3]

Is Part 2 Tsunade a whole lot stronger than Part 1? I mean not like she was training or anything

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Hanzo's poison likely takes out Tsunade pretty easily. I don't know of any counter she has to it. There is no known antidote aside from Hanzo's own and his mask (which is technically only a preventative measure, not an antidote), and it covers a gigantic area. That, plus his own summon being a decent size, plus it being able to tunnel underground to avoid anything serious hitting it/Hanzo leads me to believe he's got a very good chance of beating Tsunade.

Even in close combat, his Kusari-Gama helps him deal with Tsunade from a distance or up front.

[Lady Tsunade]

Originally Posted by Inuyasha

I'd say she is a force to be reckoned with and can beat most on your list but not all like for Kimmi's bone and skin reconstruction insures his victory he was crushed by Giant Sand burial and lucked out based on his protection. Tsunade's punches and kicks are enough to kill but not a man who can protect himself like that. Ok so her reaction speed is fairly good but that doesn't mean speed people won't be trouble for her she'll definetly have a tough time dealing with them being faster.

The only people who are so fast that Tsunade could not cause them any sort of difficulty in close combat are those who are in the Legend tier. And a 7 Gated Gai. But of course, I'm not debating those. Tsunade has no real way to harm Kimimaro herself, but with Katsuyu? The Slug increases her strength significantly.

Yea he's the low man on the totem poll of Kage but ET of course makes all seem unfairly powerful.

Indeed.

Yea I forgot that in any case he's definitely very powerful and I'm not saying this because he's cool I do like him but I wouldn't go so far enough to say I'm a big fan of his I'm just a normal fan and I just think he should be a little more credited.

I think he's a cool character, but I don't think I'm being harsh, the man can't compete with half of the Kage Tier.

So with prep the mine field is usable always unless stated otherwise?
Even without prep she can still suffocate, cut, ect.

Indeed. Without prep she can do those things, but the vast majority of her attacks are avoidable in most instances.

EDIT:

@Sannin: In Part II Tsunade has shown the stamina and skill to be able to heal hundreds of wounds at once, and react to faster attacks like Chou Shinra Tensei. Where as this probably would've been impossible for her in Part I.

@Sage: Hanzo doesn't use his poison unless he has no other option. And with preparation to form antidotes, I assumed countering any poison would be possible. Also his taijutsu skill and speed is not better than Tsunades.

[Super Sanin 3]

@Sannin: In Part II Tsunade has shown the stamina and skill to be able to heal hundreds of wounds at once, and react to faster attacks like Chou Shinra Tensei. Where as this probably would've been impossible for her in Part I.

Yeah but that would be just assumptions, logically she should be equal to her part 1 self, i mean she's like everything except she's older than before
But for the sake of it yeah i'll say she's tougher

[J-Sun Tasogare]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

The only people who are so fast that Tsunade could not cause them any sort of difficulty in close combat are those who are in the Legend tier. And a 7 Gated Gai. But of course, I'm not debating those. Tsunade has no real way to harm Kimimaro herself, but with Katsuyu? The Slug increases her strength significantly.



Indeed.



I think he's a cool character, but I don't think I'm being harsh, the man can't compete with half of the Kage Tier.



Indeed. Without prep she can do those things, but the vast majority of her attacks are avoidable in most instances.

EDIT:

@Sannin: In Part II Tsunade has shown the stamina and skill to be able to heal hundreds of wounds at once, and react to faster attacks like Chou Shinra Tensei. Where as this probably would've been impossible for her in Part I.

@Sage: Hanzo doesn't use his poison unless he has no other option. And with preparation to form antidotes, I assumed countering any poison would be possible. Also his taijutsu skill and speed is not better than Tsunades.

How doesn't he use his poison if there is no other option? It's laced on his blade, in the Salamander, and in his body, hell it was the first attack he used.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

@Sage: Hanzo doesn't use his poison unless he has no other option. And with preparation to form antidotes, I assumed countering any poison would be possible. Also his taijutsu skill and speed is not better than Tsunades.

Not true at all. He uses his poison when it helps him to win. He's never shown any inhibitions about using it against an opponent that I can recall. He's just never (in the one real fight that's been shown, which isn't enough to establish habit) IMMEDIATELY lead off with it.

How can she form an antidote to a poison she has no means of gathering data on? A poison that only the man who has a venom gland in his body is able to produce? Like I said, there's only one known antidote, and Hanzo has it. Tsunade is a doctor, not a magician. To assume she can make an antidote to any toxin is unreasonable, and to assume she can make it in the few minutes/seconds she has before she fights Hanzo in a standard BG brawl without any means of gathering materials/knowing what materials are needed just doesn't make sense.

I never claimed his Taijutsu was equal to Tsunade's. I said his Kusari-Gama and raw strength help him keep her at a distance. His speed is fairly high, though. He's at least sonic, and likely closer to supersonic judging from his fight.

[Lady Tsunade]

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

Yeah but that would be just assumptions, logically she should be equal to her part 1 self, i mean she's like everything except she's older than before
But for the sake of it yeah i'll say she's tougher

In Part I she notes a basic Shosen no jutsu as using up a lot of chakra as she uses it, while in Part II this is clearly isn't the case as she is able to heal hundreds of people at the same time without any sort of physical drawback.

Originally Posted by J-Sun Tasogare

How doesn't he use his poison if there is no other option? It's laced on his blade, in the Salamander, and in his body, hell it was the first attack he used.

Ah, I was merely referring to the poison inside his stomach. I wasn't aware he laced it onto his Sickle. Though I totally forgot about Ibuse's poison, though the Salamander shouldn't be able to poison her, the poisonous mist is countered by holding ones breathe. And assuming it manages to swallow her like it did with Mifune, her massive strength should break her out, or if that fails, summoning Katsuyu inside of it would blow it up.

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

Not true at all. He uses his poison when it helps him to win. He's never shown any inhibitions about using it against an opponent that I can recall. He's just never (in the one real fight that's been shown, which isn't enough to establish habit) IMMEDIATELY lead off with it.

Yes, I was referring to the poison in his stomach, which he plainly tells Mifune he doesn't use in battle often as it poses a risk to himself. So, my bad!

How can she form an antidote to a poison she has no means of gathering data on? A poison that only the man who has a venom gland in his body is able to produce? Like I said, there's only one known antidote, and Hanzo has it. Tsunade is a doctor, not a magician. To assume she can make an antidote to any toxin is unreasonable, and to assume she can make it in the few minutes/seconds she has before she fights Hanzo in a standard BG brawl without any means of gathering materials/knowing what materials are needed just doesn't make sense.

When preparation was given I assumed they had access to whatever means possible to prepare, however if that isn't the case and this more logical approach is taken to preparation, then the poison wouldn't be curable in the end. Though, I was under the impression they had an X amount of time to prepare? I didn't know there was a time limit?

I never claimed his Taijutsu was equal to Tsunade's. I said his Kusari-Gama and raw strength help him keep her at a distance. His speed is fairly high, though. He's at least sonic, and likely closer to supersonic judging from his fight.

I use the manga and feats to determine speed, not calculations, so not going to argue about Sonic speed etc. just a heads up. Also, I suppose he could use it to keep her at bay, but wouldn't also be possible for her to disarm him if she manages to grab a hold of his Kusari-Gama? This is certainly possible if he's using it as a projectile. She's skilled at disarming opponents too, she manages to take Narutos kunai off him in their brief tussle in CQC, and even steal his Froggy wallet under his nose.

[J-Sun Tasogare]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

In Part I she notes a basic Shosen no jutsu as using up a lot of chakra as she uses it, while in Part II this is clearly isn't the case as she is able to heal hundreds of people at the same time without any sort of physical drawback.



Ah, I was merely referring to the poison inside his stomach. I wasn't aware he laced it onto his Sickle. Though I totally forgot about Ibuse's poison, though the Salamander shouldn't be able to poison her, the poisonous mist is countered by holding ones breathe. And assuming it manages to swallow her like it did with Mifune, her massive strength should break her out, or if that fails, summoning Katsuyu inside of it would blow it up.

And if Hanzo attacks mid poison cloud? I doubt she'd be able to keep her eyes open with poison gas around.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

Ah, I was merely referring to the poison inside his stomach. I wasn't aware he laced it onto his Sickle. Though I totally forgot about Ibuse's poison, though the Salamander shouldn't be able to poison her, the poisonous mist is countered by holding ones breathe. And assuming it manages to swallow her like it did with Mifune, her massive strength should break her out, or if that fails, summoning Katsuyu inside of it would blow it up.

She can't hold her breath for too long. And even if she gets Katsuya to blow up Ibuse, there's no way of knowing that Katsuya won't get infected as well. A paralytic venom usually affects the nervous system, which Katsuya, even as a slug, possesses.

[Lady Tsunade]

Originally Posted by J-Sun Tasogare

And if Hanzo attacks mid poison cloud? I doubt she'd be able to keep her eyes open with poison gas around.

She can jump away from the Poison Cloud, not much of a problem. Also, the cloud is a thick mist, in theory seeing in it even with your eyes open would be difficult. Hanzo may not be able to target her easily even if she were trapped in the mist and unable to move.

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

She can't hold her breath for too long. And even if she gets Katsuya to blow up Ibuse, there's no way of knowing that Katsuya won't get infected as well. A paralytic venom usually affects the nervous system, which Katsuya, even as a slug, possesses.

It wouldn't take too long to break out. So that wouldn't be a problem anyway. Though some people can hold their breathe for up to 8-17 minutes.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

She can jump away from the Poison Cloud, not much of a problem. Also, the cloud is a thick mist, in theory seeing in it even with your eyes open would be difficult. Hanzo may not be able to target her easily even if she were trapped in the mist and unable to move.



It wouldn't take too long to break out. So that wouldn't be a problem anyway. Though some people can hold their breathe for up to 8-17 minutes.

Poison cloud is gigantic. It covered a good portion of a forest, and it can potentially spread further if Hanzo keeps spraying it. Also, there's no way for Tsunade to know which direction will take her out of the cloud save for going up, which leaves her very open to a bladed attack from Hanzo.

Tsunade has no feats of holding her breath for that long. We can't assume she could do so, especially considering people train their whole lives to be able to hold a breath for a few minutes, let alone doing so while running around and expending oxygen.

[Lady Tsunade]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

Poison cloud is gigantic. It covered a good portion of a forest, and it can potentially spread further if Hanzo keeps spraying it. Also, there's no way for Tsunade to know which direction will take her out of the cloud save for going up, which leaves her very open to a bladed attack from Hanzo.

There's no proof Ibuse can even spread it further, that may be its limit. There's also a 5 limit gap between when Ibuse can use it. Hanzo would do no better at seeing than Tsunade would if it clouds vision. Mind you it didn't seem to cloud vision whenever it was used, given that Kankuro could see Hanzo, and vice versa. Mifune even see's Hanzo.

Tsunade has no feats of holding her breath for that long. We can't assume she could do so, especially considering people train their whole lives to be able to hold a breath for a few minutes, let alone doing so while running around and expending oxygen.

I suppose that's true. Mind you if ninja are superior to regular people in every aspect, it might be possible.

[Inuyasha]

Originally Posted by Lady Tsunade

The only people who are so fast that Tsunade could not cause them any sort of difficulty in close combat are those who are in the Legend tier. And a 7 Gated Gai. But of course, I'm not debating those. Tsunade has no real way to harm Kimimaro herself, but with Katsuyu? The Slug increases her strength significantly.

Yea Katsuyu is defintly her trump card not only does she have size and cloning abilities but she has acid slime can melt through his dense little Kekkei Genkai bones.

Deidara has proven himself after not only having his arm taken by Gaara and then the other by Kakashi not to mention taking hits from KN0 Naruto turning KN1 and then afterwards fighting off team Gai with a Kunai in his mouth and still able to escape.

He also held his own against Sasuke if it wasn't for Sharingan he would've lost that fight I mean seriously Microscopic bombs! Deidara is also immune to any Genjutsu because of his left eye and can react quickly with clay clone substitutions.

[Super Sanin 3]

What if he used dance of the seedling fern? That could potentially harm Katsuya