History chat thread

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Sheelah

The problem is they are still debating about the pyramids, it seems to be to coincidental. They shared ideas yes and had a means of transport but it's unclear as to how it started or why, only theories currently. Archaeologists are still trying to unravel it.

Many theories will change in time, as much of our current knowledge are only guesses by scientists that put together various facts into one.

For example, it was first believed that it was the Turks who brought the cannon to Europe around the 1400's, but now new archeology have found parts of a cannon in Sweden that is from the 1250's. So it is possible that Sweden was the first country with firearms in Europe, and not the Ottomans as it was first thought.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

You guys aren't covering how crazy the emperor of Japan was at the time.

The guy was warned we had the weapon, and that we needed to stop fighting.
He told us he didn't care and would slaughter us all.
We dropped bomb 1 in hiroshima.
Emperor said "I really don't care, I'm still going to order all of my people to slaughter you. This war will never end.
We dropped the second in nagasaki.
Emperor shat brix.
War over.

The japanese people wanted the war to end.

Dropping the bombs on them stopped the war. Many more died in a month or two across the world in that war than japan lost.

Dropping the bombs was a crime against the japanese people, but a service to every other nation stopping the deaths of many soldiers and civilians. If you want to claim that no civilians died in WW2 ask Poland how the war went.

It doesn't matter what the reasons were to drop nukes in Japan. I wouldn't bother if they had used it against a huge military base - but against two unprotected cities? This is one of the reasons USA is hated around the world.

If a million soldiers dies, but are willing to sacrifice their own lives, it is not a bad thing but an honorable thing.
If a single civilian dies, while wanting nothing but to end the violence, that is something that should be mourned over.

[Toma RNK]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

It doesn't matter what the reasons were to drop nukes in Japan. I wouldn't bother if they had used it against a huge military base - but against two unprotected cities? This is one of the reasons USA is hated around the world.

If a million soldiers dies, but are willing to sacrifice their own lives, it is not a bad thing but an honorable thing.
If a single civilian dies, while wanting nothing but to end the violence, that is something that should be mourned over.

I already said it was a crime against the Japanese people.
I'll not get into honor in war, as I would likely offend anyone who hasn't been beaten down to almost nothing, or been a soldier.

Edit: Also

If a million soldiers dies, but are willing to sacrifice their own lives, it is not a bad thing but an honorable thing.

really sickens me.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

I already said it was a crime against the Japanese people.
I'll not get into honor in war, as I would likely offend anyone who hasn't been beaten down to almost nothing, or been a soldier.

Edit: Also

really sickens me.

A soldier that fears death and retreats the first chance he gets, is not worthy of calling himself a warrior.

- Bushido, the warrior's code, chapter II.

[Toma RNK]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

A soldier that fears death and retreats the first chance he gets, is not worthy of calling himself a warrior.

- Bushido, the warrior's code, chapter II.

Spoken like a true scholar.

[mysticninja]

Mystic:hello...

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

Spoken like a true scholar.

I take that as a compliment.

Originally Posted by mysticninja

Mystic:hello...

Hi. Anything you find interesting so far in the thread?

[Toma RNK]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

I take that as a compliment.

I'm not surprised. It wasn't but I think we are people on different paths, believing in different things, and I doubt we will be able to change each others minds. So I will move on to other discussions as this thread is really more your "thing" than mine.

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

I'm not surprised. It wasn't but I think we are people on different paths, believing in different things, and I doubt we will be able to change each others minds. So I will move on to other discussions as this thread is really more your "thing" than mine.

Well, I don't wish to argue with anyone. I'm just saying what I have learned and what I have been raised to believe.

[mysticninja]

Mystic:nope just chillin and watchin

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

You guys aren't covering how crazy the emperor of Japan was at the time.

The guy was warned we had the weapon, and that we needed to stop fighting.
He told us he didn't care and would slaughter us all.
We dropped bomb 1 in hiroshima.
Emperor said "I really don't care, I'm still going to order all of my people to slaughter you. This war will never end.
We dropped the second in nagasaki.
Emperor shat brix.
War over.

The japanese people wanted the war to end.

Dropping the bombs on them stopped the war. Many more died in a month or two across the world in that war than japan lost.

Dropping the bombs was a crime against the japanese people, but a service to every other nation stopping the deaths of many soldiers and civilians. If you want to claim that no civilians died in WW2 ask Poland how the war went.

/didn't read this the first time around

Point 1: I absolutely know nothing about the Japanese emperor because I was under the impression that the military generals were in charge of the imperialism. As for the notion of knowing what the bomb was and being warned, the Japanese government officials who wanted to surrender(This doesn't include the die-hards) only wanted to keep their emperor, who is a figurehead in place. As it turns out,the guy was allowed to keep his position once the surrender was finalized,yet that was the one Condition that the Japanese insisted on.

Point 2: Are you sure that you are not referring tot he military leaders who were really pulling the strings? That said, the Emperor was a figurehead.

Point 3 and 4: Do you have a source about the Japanese emperor not caring about the deaths inflicted at Hiroshima?

Point 5: That is what happened.

Rebuttal:

What you failed to point out was Japan's inability to wage a forward war. This nation didn't have the industrial capacity to break the United states' naval block. I doubt the Japanese would have been ability to strafe the planned invasionary forces of the allies and I doubt their firebombed factories would be able to produce more bullets.

What's more is the split in the Japanese peoples, even the civilians at Okinawa hated the Americans. Yet they didn't go all Banzai suicidal charge on the Allied forces who landed there.

Conclusion for now:
This post did nothing to convince me that the dropping of the bombs was necessary to end the war. The casualties of the supposed invasion were hypothetical while the bombs would ensure a staggering loss of life.

[Kunoichi]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

It doesn't matter what the reasons were to drop nukes in Japan. I wouldn't bother if they had used it against a huge military base - but against two unprotected cities? This is one of the reasons USA is hated around the world.

If a million soldiers dies, but are willing to sacrifice their own lives, it is not a bad thing but an honorable thing.
If a single civilian dies, while wanting nothing but to end the violence, that is something that should be mourned over.

I don't think that's the number one reason Americans are hated, I think it has a lot more to do with us taking the role of a global super power that rubs people the wrong way, and that's something that was bound to happen ever since we enter WW1. (atleast in my opinion)

On a side note if you ever get the chance you should look up some of the interviews they did with the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. Really interesting stuff, they asked one of them "Did any of you stop to think about how the project would be used?" or something like that and the scientists really hadn't. To them this was just simply science, it didn't make a real impact until after the fact when you can see the aftermath.


Ooo can we talk about the crusades next?!

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Bacon

/didn't read this the first time around

Point 1: I absolutely know nothing about the Japanese emperor because I was under the impression that the military generals were in charge of the imperialism. As for the notion of knowing what the bomb was and being warned, the Japanese government officials who wanted to surrender(This doesn't include the die-hards) only wanted to keep their emperor, who is a figurehead in place. As it turns out,the guy was allowed to keep his position once the surrender was finalized,yet that was the one Condition that the Japanese insisted on.

Point 2: Are you sure that you are not referring tot he military leaders who were really pulling the strings? That said, the Emperor was a figurehead.

Point 3 and 4: Do you have a source about the Japanese emperor not caring about the deaths inflicted at Hiroshima?

Point 5: That is what happened.

Rebuttal:

What you failed to point out was Japan's inability to wage a forward war. This nation didn't have the industrial capacity to break the United states' naval block. I doubt the Japanese would have been ability to strafe the planned invasionary forces of the allies and I doubt their firebombed factories would be able to produce more bullets.

What's more is the split in the Japanese peoples, even the civilians at Okinawa hated the Americans. Yet they didn't go all Banzai suicidal charge on the Allied forces who landed there.

Conclusion for now:
This post did nothing to convince me that the dropping of the bombs was necessary to end the war. The casualties of the supposed invasion were hypothetical while the bombs would ensure a staggering loss of life.

You are all correct, my friend.

Originally Posted by Kunoichi

I don't think that's the number one reason Americans are hated, I think it has a lot more to do with us taking the role of a global super power that rubs people the wrong way, and that's something that was bound to happen ever since we enter WW1. (atleast in my opinion)

On a side note if you ever get the chance you should look up some of the interviews they did with the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. Really interesting stuff, they asked one of them "Did any of you stop to think about how the project would be used?" or something like that and the scientists really hadn't. To them this was just simply science, it didn't make a real impact until after the fact when you can see the aftermath.


Ooo can we talk about the crusades next?!

Which one? If I remember correctly there was 4 larger crusades against the Muslims, all led by the Teutonic Order and Holy Roman Empire.

[Toma RNK]

Originally Posted by Bacon

Conclusion for now:
This post did nothing to convince me that the dropping of the bombs was necessary to end the war. The casualties of the supposed invasion were hypothetical while the bombs would ensure a staggering loss of life.

I was referring to the whole of WW2. The pacific wasn't the only battlefield.

Again japan got screwed, hard, and unfairly. I was never arguing on that. I was referring (apparently very poorly) to the macro-political agendas fueling the war, and the large scale changes across the globe that the bombs and japans surrender brought about.

[Kunoichi]

Originally Posted by Toma RNK

I was referring to the whole of WW2. The pacific wasn't the only battlefield.

Again japan got screwed, hard, and unfairly. I was never arguing on that. I was referring (apparently very poorly) to the macro-political agendas fueling the war, and the large scale changes across the globe that the bombs and japans surrender brought about.

So did the Germans

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

You are all correct, my friend.

Which one? If I remember correctly there was 4 larger crusades against the Muslims, all led by the Teutonic Order and Holy Roman Empire.

All of them! Pick one anyone, (there's like 9, each one with it's own wonderous details.)

My personal favorite was the children's crusade, ahh man... kids.

[Ninja of Cao]

There is one thing that is highly unfair, by some means even racistic:
In all movies of Europe and America, Japan are the evil during WWII. In fact I think Japan were good. They liberated the Philipinnes and allowed them to be a free nation. They chased the Western influence out of Asia. They helped China in surpassing the USA as the world's leading power (USA is about to fall right now, that's obvious. China will soon take their place as the world's leaders).

[Ninja of Cao]

Originally Posted by Kunoichi

So did the Germans


All of them! Pick one anyone, (there's like 9, each one with it's own wonderous details.)

My personal favorite was the children's crusade, ahh man... kids.

That was a bit sad.
In Sweden we have two movies in a series named "Arn - Tempelriddaren" (translated into English as "Arn - the Temple knight"). It follows a Swedish knight who joins forces with the Great Crusade against Saladin.

Then he goes back to Sweden and fends off some Danish, but that's another story.

[mysticninja]

I luv the history point of the greek gods

[Kunoichi]

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

That was a bit sad.
In Sweden we have two movies in a series named "Arn - Tempelriddaren" (translated into English as "Arn - the Temple knight"). It follows a Swedish knight who joins forces with the Great Crusade against Saladin.

Then he goes back to Sweden and fends off some Danish, but that's another story.

Well, I have a sick sense of humor.

Originally Posted by Ninja of Tao

There is one thing that is highly unfair, by some means even racistic:
In all movies of Europe and America, Japan are the evil during WWII. In fact I think Japan were good. They liberated the Philipinnes and allowed them to be a free nation. They chased the Western influence out of Asia. They helped China in surpassing the USA as the world's leading power (USA is about to fall right now, that's obvious. China will soon take their place as the world's leaders).

That's not entirely true, you just haven't watched the right war movies, Tora Tora Tora for one did a good job of showing the war from both sides, both japanese and american.

[mysticninja]

i like posidon better then any1 though