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Old 11-28-2010, 05:19 AM   #1
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Default Is life a lie?

Are you guys replying to my posts really there? What if everything around you is just a hologram of some sort, even people. What if everything you do in your life is just you in an extremely advanced real-time first person video game played by a higher source. What if god was a gamer playing with us, since after all, everything is set in stone technically (no affiliation of god needed here to answer this either, it could just be a higher being)? How can we know something is there if we're not seeing it? How do we know we a sound has been emitted if we can't hear it? How do we know.....well, I'll stop there, but you know on what line of philosophy I'm talking about
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:22 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

What you are talking about is the age-old battle between the Idealists and the Realists. Ironically, statistically speaking, a case has been made that it almost must be both -- viz the Matrix. It has been posited that, if a Matrix-like scenario is ever possible, then almost all sentient beings everywhere are likely living in such a scenario, since creating such a scenario many times over would be child's play to a civilization capable of such technology. So, when we reach this level, we could easily produce perhaps millions or even billions of such digital civilizations, making our "real" existence comparatively rare. You could never prove that you weren't in such a scenario, and other "real" alien civilizations would be in the same boat.

Me? I'm an idealist, since I'm a panentheist Christian. But you don't actually have to be a theist to be an idealist. However, if you do not believe in any mind beyond your own, you have slipped into what is known as "solipsism," wherein you think you are the only real being and everything else around you is an illusion. There are breeds of psychosis that follow this line...

Just to set things out: all theists are at least in part Idealists (meaning they believe mind has or had something to do with the fabric of reality -- its creation, and or maintenance); all atheists are Realists (meaning they believe material existence would be as it is without the intervention of any mind at any point in natural history, apart from the limited alteration of environs by beings such as humans).

I should note that in neither school of thought is life claimed to be some kind of lie. Even a solipsist's life is real for the solipsist.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Life is whatever you want it to be, my friend.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

So you're saying that if Ur Mom didn't want to believe that you were an actual person making actual posts here, then you wouldn't actually exist?
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie View Post
So you're saying that if Ur Mom didn't want to believe that you were an actual person making actual posts here, then you wouldn't actually exist?
No, because I wouldn't believe that, therefor, its not true for me.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Then you are saying you believe in illusions, not that you believe in the truth. We are all entitled to our own opinions, not our own facts. Believing that you will not die from jumping off a skyscraper with no means of slowing your fall will just make you wrong -- dead wrong. This will be the case both subjectively and objectively. It won't be only true for me, or only true for you, but true in itself. In the same way, Ur Mom not believing in you will not cancel your existence -- even for him. He will just be trapped in an illusion, not his own truth.
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

*sighs at you guys above*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie View Post
What you are talking about is the age-old battle between the Idealists and the Realists. Ironically, statistically speaking, a case has been made that it almost must be both -- viz the Matrix. It has been posited that, if a Matrix-like scenario is ever possible, then almost all sentient beings everywhere are likely living in such a scenario, since creating such a scenario many times over would be child's play to a civilization capable of such technology. So, when we reach this level, we could easily produce perhaps millions or even billions of such digital civilizations, making our "real" existence comparatively rare. You could never prove that you weren't in such a scenario, and other "real" alien civilizations would be in the same boat.

Me? I'm an idealist, since I'm a panentheist Christian. But you don't actually have to be a theist to be an idealist. However, if you do not believe in any mind beyond your own, you have slipped into what is known as "solipsism," wherein you think you are the only real being and everything else around you is an illusion. There are breeds of psychosis that follow this line...

Just to set things out: all theists are at least in part Idealists (meaning they believe mind has or had something to do with the fabric of reality -- its creation, and or maintenance); all atheists are Realists (meaning they believe material existence would be as it is without the intervention of any mind at any point in natural history, apart from the limited alteration of environs by beings such as humans).

I should note that in neither school of thought is life claimed to be some kind of lie. Even a solipsist's life is real for the solipsist.
Anyway, just so you know, I got the idea to do this thread because I just watched the first Matrix for the, like, googleplexianth time.

I actually personally believe that things are the way they are. That this is actual life where everybody is actually an entity. Outside the universe harbors god's realm where everything falls apart. Angels and Jins aren't that supernatural, just different. God created himself and all, all is all that is within our current grasp, basically.
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

were in the effin matrix dude
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You sound Like a child.

And you're calling Jun an amateur? JUN of all people? The Jun who could possibly solo everyone? and YES,he can destroy you
for once someone gets it right
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur Mom View Post
*sighs at you guys above*

Anyway, just so you know, I got the idea to do this thread because I just watched the first Matrix for the, like, googleplexianth time.

I actually personally believe that things are the way they are. That this is actual life where everybody is actually an entity. Outside the universe harbors god's realm where everything falls apart. Angels and Jins aren't that supernatural, just different. God created himself and all, all is all that is within our current grasp, basically.
Well, even if we were in the Matrix, the whole point of the Matrix is that it would be real. And I mean Matrix-like, in that there is no supposition that we have physical bodies necessarily -- just that we exist in a simulation indistinguishable from "real" reality. It would explain the speed of light, actually, as well as the anthropic principle.

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were in the effin matrix dude
Strange things are afoot at the Circle K...
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie View Post
Well, even if we were in the Matrix, the whole point of the Matrix is that it would be real. And I mean Matrix-like, in that there is no supposition that we have physical bodies necessarily -- just that we exist in a simulation indistinguishable from "real" reality. It would explain the speed of light, actually, as well as the anthropic principle.



Strange things are afoot at the Circle K...
Ummm, explain a little why, I didn't exactly get it
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

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Ummm, explain a little why, I didn't exactly get it
Well, if you think about it, there's really no fundamental reason why there should be a natural limit to velocity, or why space and time should be intertwined such that a speed limit becomes causally useful. After all, we can easily imagine (and did for some time) a reality without relativity. However, if the speed of light is absolute, it makes things very convenient for our Matrix overlords, in that observation would never out-pace the engines of creation, should those engines have some kind of load capacity (a limit on what they can reveal to a given set of observers). And as for the anthropic principle, that should be obvious: it would explain why the constants of physics are so finely tuned such that our emergence as a species becomes inevitable, since in the Matrix scenario, the universe is specifically designed as a host for us, rather than being random.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

I knew it. I knew SOMEONE was gonna reference the matrix right away. >_>

If this is a dream, who's the architect of the dream?
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Well, it's the most obvious and easily understood analogy to any "fake" reality to which we may be concurrently exposed. Although, you wouldn't think that to look at the confused faces of the movie-goers as me and my friends exited the theater eleven years ago. But they were fools; how can you be used to the Web and video games but not understand the Matrix?

As to who's the architect of the dream? Well, I imagine that a sufficiently advance civilization could host nested matrices, where a virtual society could spawn other virtual societies, in an infinite regression (assuming the superset of "real" universes are infinite as well). This makes the question a bit pointless, in that no layer of reality revealed could be declared fundamental.

One can imagine a civilization powerful enough to create a "real" universe, within which civilizations could then create their own "fake" realities, making the revelation of the parent reality not fundamental at all.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Quote:
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I knew it. I knew SOMEONE was gonna reference the matrix right away. >_>

If this is a dream, who's the architect of the dream?
Depending on what you believe the architect could be god, or just another higher being
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Could be entirely likely, J.J. If we can dream and imagine up things like this, perhaps it comes from some preprogrammed sense of false reality. If so, it's a pretty flawless system because you rarely see any errors.

Just highly unlikely. Science is a great thing, all the things its showed us about civilization and the history of the universe. Emotions in life are too great to ever be a dream.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

I understand your skepticism. It's not a surprise. But two things argue for this scenario: 1. statistics, which is a branch of science; 2. the apparent digital nature of reality, viz quantum physics -- which states that reality comes in discreet packages, or "quanta," rather than being an endless analog continuum from large scale to small scale. This isn't proof, as such, but a set of indicators that point to the probability, and fail to point to its impossibility.

What I find amusing about this is that if we are ever able to produce a virtual world as convincing as the real world, we will have thrown our supposed reality's status as one that is fundamental into question.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

Iv always wondered if we were pages in a book like inkheart implied
like what if we are just puppets
what if we are just little shades of cells without realising it
what if we are just a cartoon that people watch to their amusement.
for all we know this could link to thousands upon thousands of dimensions if the theorie is correct
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

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I understand your skepticism. It's not a surprise. But two things argue for this scenario: 1. statistics, which is a branch of science; 2. the apparent digital nature of reality, viz quantum physics -- which states that reality comes in discreet packages, or "quanta," rather than being an endless analog continuum from large scale to small scale. This isn't proof, as such, but a set of indicators that point to the probability, and fail to point to its impossibility.

What I find amusing about this is that if we are ever able to produce a virtual world as convincing as the real world, we will have thrown our supposed reality's status as one that is fundamental into question.
Yes but what you are speaking of is all theory. In the end, you weigh the likelihood of the two together. This is a question that has no for sure answer in life. There is more proof that this is "Real-Time" then there is of anything else.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

One can state that the sense can be fooled, and the lines of reality can be blurred. Based on Decartes theory (don't remember which one), all of the senses we use to experience the outside world are able to be tricked into believing what we see is actual (dream state).

So, while I know I exist because I am posing the question of my own existance, thus I must exist, it can be more difficult to prove that I exist in the time and space in which I claim to. Also, I cannot prove that you exist and you cannot prove that I exist, because if this is a dream state then you're existance is based on my sleep, when I wake you no longer exist (and vice versa).

reality is another question. What makes somthing real? if I precieve somthing is real, then it must be real whether I will it into existance or it exists even when I am not around.

Now for my real question, let's go the other way. What if our preception of reality is extremely limited, and what can see and feel is real, but what we cannot see and feel is also real. Consider the m-theory or dimensional string theory where multiple realities and dimensions exist and are attached through strings which hold togeather the fabrics of time and space. It's odd that I began to wonder such things while I was taking Calculus in 3D as well as linear algebra proving that objects in space existed in certain dimensionsed based on limited info :-P
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is life a lie?

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Yes but what you are speaking of is all theory. In the end, you weigh the likelihood of the two together. This is a question that has no for sure answer in life. There is more proof that this is "Real-Time" then there is of anything else.
Really? What is this proof you speak of? In what way can any empirical data ever prove that we live in a fundamental reality? In point of fact, many scientists suspect that other orders of reality (extra dimensions, parallel universes, etc) may exist, because it makes it easier to explain this one! I also find it suspicious that the material world is so immaterial. Why is it that energy and matter are the same thing, that a photon is both a particle and a wave, that both time and matter seem to be delivered in irreducible quanta? How come you can't observe an electron's exact position while simultaneously knowing its velocity?

Do you realize that you are almost entirely space and have never actually touched anything? We are clouds of charged particles pushing against electromagnetic forcefields, fooled into believing we are actually solid.

As R. Buckminster Fuller once said: "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines"

What we are is pattern, and there is no good reason to believe that such patterns can't run as programs somewhere. And if they run anywhere, they probably run nearly everywhere. Add to that the raving miracle of existence, which resides in a sample space so large that even astronomically unlikely events happen routinely, and you have a recipe for matryoshkatic matrices run amok!

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One can state that the sense can be fooled, and the lines of reality can be blurred. Based on Decartes theory (don't remember which one), all of the senses we use to experience the outside world are able to be tricked into believing what we see is actual (dream state).
That is an old question, one that Berkley had a hand in posing. You can't ever directly experience any phenomenon, because your fallible senses always act as an intermediary between material reality and perception. That is why it is so plausible that we aren't living in a "fundamental" reality, or at least that we couldn't know it for sure anyway.
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