His Own Power

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

Yes, Naruto was not born with it, so it's not his own. You get the sharingan when you are put under high stress level. Sasuke did not choose for his whole clan to be killed by Itachi; and he did not choose to gain the sharingan. He just did.

Agree to disagree I guess. This debate is obviously going nowhere.. I've enjoyed it though. Good discussion.

[yondaime]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

Yes, Naruto was not born with it, so it's not his own. You get the sharingan when you are put under high stress level. Sasuke did not choose for his whole clan to be killed by Itachi; and he did not choose to gain the sharingan. He just did.

Naruto didn't also choose to get the Kyuubi and he also didn't choose for his parents to sacrifice themselves. xD So, this could actually go both ways and both Naruto and Sasuke are basically equal. Whether they chose to or not, they were both meant to have those powers. xD Destiny.

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

Agree to disagree I guess. This debate is obviously going nowhere.. I've enjoyed it though. Good discussion.

Well state were you do not agree and I'll give different points.

Originally Posted by yondaime

Naruto didn't also choose to get the Kyuubi and he also didn't choose for his parents to sacrifice themselves. xD So, this could actually go both ways and both Naruto and Sasuke are basically equal. Whether they chose to or not, they were both meant to have those powers. xD Destiny.

Sasuke was automatically going to get it at some point in time if he didn't get it then. Naruto had a 'option' I guess you could call it. If the Kyuubi thing never happens he wouldn't of had it, if Itachi didn't kill the clan Sasuke still would of had gotten his Sharingan and possibly no MS.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

Well state were you do not agree and I'll give different points.

I already did and you just keep responding with the same things. Just because Naruto wasn't born with his jutsu does not mean that they aren't his power. He earned them fair and square. They're performed with his own chakra and technique that he has worked hard to perfect. These are not powers that it can be argued that they were borrowed or given to him. There are plenty of everyday examples....for instance take a pro football player like Brett Favre or somebody. He wasn't born with all of the talent that he has but has worked to achieve it. But still, one would refer to him as "very talented" regardless if he was born with it or not.

[Jakropha]

Well, as weve seen

Everybody that matters, have obtained MS, Kakashi, Itachi, Izuna and Madara, and even Sasuke.

Naruto is more cursed than he is blessed by the Kyuubi.
Although he does serve as an reminder to Sasuke, that hatred doesnt have to keep you grounded, you just have to fly.

^G@y

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

Well state were you do not agree and I'll give different points.

Sasuke was automatically going to get it at some point in time if he didn't get it then. Naruto had a 'option' I guess you could call it. If the Kyuubi thing never happens he wouldn't of had it, if Itachi didn't kill the clan Sasuke still would of had gotten his Sharingan and possibly no MS.

Is Naruto's power his own? Yes, because he possesses it, however he came by it, and he knows how to use it. It is irrelevant to the question whether he was actually born with it, because it is now a part of him. If you deny this, ask yourself what would happen if Sasuke's eyes were removed. His powers would be gone. Humans are tool-users. Our tools are extensions of us. If I kill you with a hammer, I killed you, not the hammer -- by my powers.

[SilentBlade]

He actually didnt gain the Sharingan when Itachi killed everyone, I believe he did train to achieve it and empower it (so to speak). The purpose here we are talking about is power, and if we break down power we are talking about Chakra right?

I mean realistically we can discuss this in circles about Jutsu's but the Jutsu's arn't so important as the power to actually execute them, the jutsu's are merely how the chakra is focused and manipulated in order to serve the individual weidling it right? In that case we can argue that (as I said before) Naruto is linked to the Senju who are known for their power. My own theory aside that is proof that Naruto's own power is great, he just hasn't had the training to use it.

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

I already did and you just keep responding with the same things. Just because Naruto wasn't born with his jutsu does not mean that they aren't his power. He earned them fair and square. They're performed with his own chakra and technique that he has worked hard to perfect. These are not powers that it can be argued that they were borrowed or given to him. There are plenty of everyday examples....for instance take a pro football player like Brett Favre or somebody. He wasn't born with all of the talent that he has but has worked to achieve it. But still, one would refer to him as "very talented" regardless if he was born with it or not.

He got his power from the Kyuubi, with out the Kyuubi his most of his Jutsu's will be no good.

[JazzJunkie4]

if u extract the kyubi there goes that, if u blind sasuke there goes his sharingen. Both are weapons given to them at birth that can be taken away as well. So its fare I would say.

[SilentBlade]

Actually, from reading the Manga and watchin the series...he doesn't use the Kyuubi's power all that much in the Shippuden (up to now since he has control). If i recall correctly during the Pain arc he states that he doesn't use that power purposely. Also during his Sage training, he did not use that power though it required a great amount of Chakra to be able to learn and master.

Which Jutsu's exactly would be no good? Rasengan uses his own (in all manifestations), Shadow clone does too, sage mode.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

He got his power from the Kyuubi, with out the Kyuubi his most of his Jutsu's will be no good.

once again....absolutely not true. Kage bushin, Rasengan (whichever version), Rasen-Shuriken, Sage mode, none of these have anything to do with the fox.

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by JazzJunkie4

if u extract the kyubi there goes that, if u blind sasuke there goes his sharingen. Both are weapons given to them at birth that can be taken away as well. So its fare I would say.

If you take Naruto's eye, he is useless XD

@EvL j3st3r: The only reason he could do SM is because of the Kyuubi's chakra, Same with RS, and massive Kage bushin spam.

[SilentBlade]

um...none of that was with the Kyuubi's chakra, there is a definite difference in the use of the Kyuubi's chakra and his own. The Kyuubi's chakra isn't somthing he controls either, it's somthing that manifests itself in times of great stress. All of his Jutsu's are his own.

Your statements are based on the idea that he can control the Kyuubi at the early stages, and he can't thus anything he learns and doesn't accidentally do are using his own chakra.

[EvL j3st3r]

^ what he said. Naruto had massive chakra on his own. None of that was done with the kyuubi's chakra. Except the one time that he formed a regular rasengan out of the fox's chakra in his fight with Sasuke. And SM just simply can't be done with fox chakra bc it disrupts the flow of natural energy.

Any jutsu that you see Naruto perform with blue chakra is being done with his own chakra. Red of course is the Fox's. (Speaking of anytime before Kyuubi control of course)

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

um...none of that was with the Kyuubi's chakra, there is a definite difference in the use of the Kyuubi's chakra and his own. The Kyuubi's chakra isn't somthing he controls either, it's somthing that manifests itself in times of great stress. All of his Jutsu's are his own.

Your statements are based on the idea that he can control the Kyuubi at the early stages, and he can't thus anything he learns and doesn't accidentally do are using his own chakra.

It helped, if I remember right Pa said that one of the reason he had a perfect SM, and he got his RS mode from complete control of the kyuubi. It just helps some.

I'm not trying to say that.

[SilentBlade]

Actually if i recall correctly he stated that he had reached SM, but he could not have Ma and Pa sit on his shoulders because the Kyuubi would not allow it. In a sense the Kyuubi had an opposite effect. That was why he needed shadow clones to be the ones "sitting still" while he moved, because Ma and Pa could not do that because of th Kyuubi.

as for the RS mode from gaining control, well that is a given, but that's also new. All the Jutsu's up to that point were not using the "red chakra" or Kyuubi chakra. We see the Kyuubi Chakra when he goes into a rage and more or less loses control of himself to the Kyuubi creating more damage than good (prior to controlling it).

We could go on to argue that Naruto is much more powerful on his own than he is capable of showing due to the Kyuubi. Recalling the chapter when he goes nine-tails and attacks Sakura, Yamato states that the nine-tails chakra is like a poison, and he is impressed that Naruto can deal with it. That uncontrolled Kyuubi chakra could very well suppress his own.

[Jakropha]

Now that curse mark of Sasuke's... thats a cheat move.


Sasuke

1: Chidori - Provides excellent stability and usability in battle, Sasuke trained very hard for days with Kakashi to learn this
2: Fire Style Jutsu - Excellent power and strength, Sasuke trained for weeks to months just to impress his father, he worked very hard for this.
3: Curse Mark 1/2 - He had to get bit, and sit in a trash can for a few minutes. Not hard at all.
4: Sharingan - He had to witness his whole clan getting killed, the sharingan was a bonus
5: Mangekyo - He had to fight his own brother to the point of death, he lost his curse mark to obtain this, he worked his entire life, this was a bonus, but still his.
6: EMS - He had to switch eyes with Itachi, only a couple minute procedure. Did not work hard for at all. Not his own.

Naruto

1: Kyuubi - He has complete control over the Kyuubi, just as much if not more of a right to his own power than the Mangekyo.
2: Rasengan - Tack on one week of intense training, this is obviously his own.
3: Sage Mode - Dont tell me Sasuke with Sharingan could beat Naruto with sage mode... Ever... This is obviously his own, he worked hard to master it.
4: Shadow Clone - 1st Episode, dont even ask.
5: Sexy Jutsu - We all know he worked hard to perfect it over the timeskip, Cant wait for the improved to go on Anime soon
6: Just plain guts - Lets all admit, if it wer'nt for Naruto being an idiot and saying he cant lose and fight till he's fighting unconcious, thats what has given him all of his own feats. Sage mode plus Kyuubi mode plus Bloody Rasenshuriken = GG Sasuke without EMS.

Hope this puts everything to rest, as we can see, if you going to limit Naruto's Kyuubi, get rid of his Sharingan all together.
And if you do that, get rid of eachothers arms and legs, and then we'll have a fair fight.

Seriously, you heard KB, soon the Kyuubi chakra WILL be his arms and legs!

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

It helped, if I remember right Pa said that one of the reason he had a perfect SM, and he got his RS mode from complete control of the kyuubi. It just helps some.

I'm not trying to say that.

OK, no. Until he got control of the Kyuubi's chakra recently, it didn't help any of his jutsus at all -- it smothered them. It occasionally allowed him to survive sticky situations, but that that wasn't his power, as you say, because not only was he not controlling it, he wasn't even conscious once it got really useful. The most he usually did before releasing four tails was bash people around with his chakra cloak -- a "jutsu" he didn't know how to use otherwise, until just recently. Now the power is his, and so is the Kyuubi's chakra. Don't you remember Orochimaru claiming that his chakra and the Kyuubi's would eventually be joined? That has happened. It never helped his other powers before it became his, except once at the Valley of the End.

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

It helped, if I remember right Pa said that one of the reason he had a perfect SM, and he got his RS mode from complete control of the kyuubi. It just helps some.

I'm not trying to say that.

You remember wrong. The fox didn't help with any of his other jutsu except in first fight with Sasuke mentioned above (which doesn't count bc Sasuke was using the curse mark). And the kyuubi did not help Naruto perfect sage mode at all. All it did was make him seek an alternate way to gather natural energy (bc Ma and Pa Toad couldn't merge bodies with him due to the Fox). It never says anything about making SM stronger or more complete.



@Jutsu Junkie.....Well said. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make with this thread.


@Jakophra.......That all sounds right except the part about Sasuke's Sharingan. This is his Kekkai Genkai. Witnessing the obliteration of his clan had nothing to do with him getting it.

[Fighting_dreamer]

Originally Posted by EvL j3st3r

which doesn't count bc Sasuke was using the curse mark.

That rocks