Your take on Terrorism

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

Part 1

You are right that he isn't a Muslim, but you are wrong about his goals. He could care less about Israel in particular. That nation is just a tool in his shed of hate that he likes to pull out once in a while. His chief goal is the resurrection of the Caliphate (in the deluded form he imagines). Many peaceful Muslims see the Caliphate as a golden era (the last being the Ottoman Empire), in the same way that many older/conservative white Americans see the 50's. They are both wrong, of course. Certainly it was better than feudal Europe, but that's not saying much...

Eh, isn't that a contradiction, saying he's not Muslim but wanting the Caliphate? EXACTLY. I think he's just plain evil and wants to take over the world (in short that's what it is)

Part 2

Ur Mom, you are lucky to have visited so many countries in your young life, but how well do you remember each of those visits? Just wondering. I'm lucky enough to have family in New Zealand, so I've had several extended visits there.

Yes, because most of these happen all in one summer. Every summer has been packed for me (except this one, we just went to Pakistan this time)

Part 3

Back on topic, I chuckled when I read your description of the divisions of believers in Islam. Do you really discuss each other in terms of "levels"? It sounds like a post-modern dojo, but instead of belts you have levels.

Anyway, as you describe it, it sounds like a contradiction when you say something like:



The two points seem to be in disagreement with each other. And how does that fit in to the idea that Jihad is more an internal struggle than a physical conflict? I've heard that it's both, but maybe you have a different take.

You get my point, killing is bad unless in the name of god's expansion

Part 4

As to the central point of the thread, my take on terrorism has nothing to do with extremists. Terrorism is a tactic, it is ancient, and we only care about it now because of technology. Let me explain:

My Definition of terrorism: A tactic that deliberately targets (kidnapping, killing, harming, inducing mass-fear, etc) non-combatants for political purposes.

No official body supports this definition in writing that I am aware of, but it gets to the heart of the matter.

This tactic is as old as the Mongol Empire, indeed older, and has been practiced by almost every important (and not-so-important) nation, and many violent organizations. I cite the carpet bombing of Dresden and the forced conversion of Christians to Islam during their European conquests as examples. It is merely another form of coercion, which until now states have monopolized. Terror has only reach it's current seat as Major Boogieman because of technology. The history of technology is the transfer of greater and greater power to more and more people. What used to take an entire regiment now only requires one man with an AK-47 -- or even a jumbo jet. Mass killing, having been democratized, has become the new major threat, because it is no longer controlled by the state. That is modern terror: the empowerment of an individual's bloodthirst. It is the consequent inability of the state to control terror that marks its rise on the geopolitical scene, because there is no longer a return address against which a state may plausibly retaliate, and therefore diplomacy becomes immaterial. This disrupts the balance of power.

Basically it's political you're saying

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

Oh, I don't dispute that he hates Israel, nor do I dispute that he would like it destroyed. I also think that Israeli and Palestinian policies endanger us and our allies, handing terrorists some of their best rhetorical assets. Take away the Israeli-Palestinian problem, and you weaken support for terrorism in the region.

But the ideological basis for Bin Laden's cause is not centrally anti-Zionist (though he sympathizes with this view). The basis is Qutbism, which argues for the formation of islamic states (caliphates), under strict sharia law. Basically, they want to take us all back to the dark ages. Imagine Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, but everywhere.

That second part of this one...I argue against. The Caliphate period was nothing like Afghanistan right now. Think of the Ottomans, I mean, it wasn't ever that bad as you say. People still had the right to trail and were much more forgiven. In Afghanistan these days, they just execute even the women on the spot. Women's rights were limited, but at least not bad, as they still had opportunity for jobs and liberty if they play their life right. Women in Afghanistan are treated like trash. There was government to the fullest, and it was a warring NATION. Afghanistan, is definitely not an expanding warring nation. The Caliphates had MONEY, and A LOT of it. Afghanistan, no. The Caliphates were quite big. Look at Afghanistan. The Ottomans tolerated Christians, Jews, and Hindus. *cough* Not Afghanistan *cough*

What I'm saying is this: "Basically, they want to take us all back to the dark ages. Imagine Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, but everywhere." is very wrong, no offense of course.

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by Ur Mom

What I'm saying is this: "Basically, they want to take us all back to the dark ages. Imagine Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, but everywhere." is very wrong, no offense of course.

Their tactics and ideology precede them. If Al Qaeda is willing to ally themselves and support the Taliban, their "caliphate" is likely to be no different. It is immaterial what the caliphates of old were actually like, in light of Qutbists' insane vision. It's not so much a matter of what you would like a caliphate to be as what Al Qaeda wants that I have a problem with.

And I have to part ways with you on killing because god may like you to spread the faith by the sword. I don't think that makes it okay. If I accept that position as morally correct, I'd have to be okay with Iran taking over the US through nuclear blackmail (hypothetically speaking). Even if that example is somehow off the mark where your beliefs are concerned, I can't fathom a scenario where this becomes acceptable.

[ukiyo]

for a second i thought it said "your mom on terrorism"

this was my face


(took my like a minute to edit that out of original pic)

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

Their tactics and ideology precede them. If Al Qaeda is willing to ally themselves and support the Taliban, their "caliphate" is likely to be no different. It is immaterial what the caliphates of old were actually like, in light of Qutbists' insane vision. It's not so much a matter of what you would like a caliphate to be as what Al Qaeda wants that I have a problem with.

And I have to part ways with you on killing because god may like you to spread the faith by the sword. I don't think that makes it okay. If I accept that position as morally correct, I'd have to be okay with Iran taking over the US through nuclear blackmail (hypothetically speaking). Even if that example is somehow off the mark where your beliefs are concerned, I can't fathom a scenario where this becomes acceptable.

*cough* Regular nation war *cough*
Haven't I been emphasizing that the entire time

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by Ur Mom

*cough* Regular nation war *cough*
Haven't I been emphasizing that the entire time

I disagree with plenty of wars, whether they are "regular nation" wars or otherwise. But I find it particularly appalling when wars are waged in the name of God, whoever is fighting (nations or terrorist cells).

You said:

Originally Posted by Ur Mom

You get my point, killing is bad unless in the name of god's expansion(emphasis mine)

Thus my reply. For me, it doesn't matter if it is "in the name of god's expansion." The reasons are many, but it is good enough to say that if God is almighty, he doesn't need us to fight for Him, and that if He is infinite, then expanding either Him or anything to do with belief in Him is both pointless and contradictory. But I don't have any problem with you trying, as long as it isn't done through coercion.

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

I disagree with plenty of wars, whether they are "regular nation" wars or otherwise. But I find it particularly appalling when wars are waged in the name of God, whoever is fighting (nations or terrorist cells).

You said:



Thus my reply. For me, it doesn't matter if it is "in the name of god's expansion." The reasons are many, but it is good enough to say that if God is almighty, he doesn't need us to fight for Him, and that if He is infinite, then expanding either Him or anything to do with belief in Him is both pointless and contradictory. But I don't have any problem with you trying, as long as it isn't done through coercion.

Yeah, probably. But hey, this comes straight from the source

[kay]

How can all of you people have the guts to bash israel like this?
all of you know the subjext from cnn and cbs and think you're full of info about this!
Israel is Israel and will stay Israel forever!
even by the muslim bible we were here and have just as much as a right as they do to live here, and how can you say that its ok to hate israle? its just plain out saying its ok to be a racist anti sametic bigget, what country is more humantrian then israel?! what army air drops flaiers booklets that tell civilian to leave the war zone?!
you dont have the right to say sh!t about israel!

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by kay

How can all of you people have the guts to bash israel like this?
all of you know the subjext from cnn and cbs and think you're full of info about this!
Israel is Israel and will stay Israel forever!
even by the muslim bible we were here and have just as much as a right as they do to live here, and how can you say that its ok to hate israle? its just plain out saying its ok to be a racist anti sametic bigget, what country is more humantrian then israel?! what army air drops flaiers booklets that tell civilian to leave the war zone?!
you dont have the right to say sh!t about israel!

You could have just told us to lay down on the bashing a little LIGHTLY you know.

I'm blue, and you're yellow...........I'm very real aren't I

~Always treat a situation with a smile~Sai

[kay]

Originally Posted by Ur Mom

You could have just told us to lay down on the bashing a little LIGHTLY you know.

I'm blue, and you're yellow...........I'm very real aren't I

~Always treat a situation with a smile~Sai

na ah I've had enough!
you atlist know the subject like me and talk about it but i hate it when people just sit in their chairs in eroupe or the US watch cbs and think they know everything about everything when they actually know nothing of the subject and just act like blind media led sheep

[I<3Declan]

I live in the United States and here when you think of terroism you think of 9/11 and the Muslims that caused that. I think 9/11 was a terrible thing and many innocent people died that day. Not only the ones in the catastrophe but people who lost loved ones as well. However, I think it is wrong when people blame a whole religon on the act of a few people. 98% of Muslims are great. But there is that 2% that... well are't. But that goes along with every religon. I am Angnostic personally, but one of my best friends' name is Abdul-Fattah (Abdul). I love him, he's great and he's a Muslim.
Terrorism can be caused by the act one or the act of a group. I can be caused by those of any religon or any race. Extremists like Osama bin Laden are the problem, in my opinion.

Nothing I said was meant to be offesnive in any way.

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by kay

How can all of you people have the guts to bash israel like this?

Seriously? You do know this is the Interweb, right? No guts required.

Originally Posted by kay

...how can you say that its ok to hate israle?

I'm wondering how myself, since no one said that.

Originally Posted by kay

...what country is more humantrian then israel?!

Um, the US.

Originally Posted by kay

what army air drops flaiers booklets that tell civilian to leave the war zone?!

Um, the US. I'm getting dejavu.

Originally Posted by kay

you dont have the right to say sh!t about israel!

Actually we do. You too can bash Israel, or any other nation, to your heart's content. Come on, try it. The first hit is free... *taps the needle*

[kay]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

Seriously? You do know this is the Interweb, right? No guts required.



I'm wondering how myself, since no one said that.


Um, the US.



Um, the US. I'm getting dejavu.



Actually we do. You too can bash Israel, or any other nation, to your heart's content. Come on, try it. The first hit is free... *taps the needle*

really the US? XD
you do know that recording from a military hummer that you hear the soldiers say to one another "there are kids in the area should we stop shooting?..,no its their fault they braught their kids to a war zone"

dont get me wrong i love the US and im actually moving to it next summer and i dont have a problem with its tactics in war or stuff i dont really care if they flaten out villages like they do...alot It just pisess me of when people dont know the subject and bash a state souly on what they hear on cbs or nbc which are totaly full of lies, like with that "peace" flotila to gaza

[Jutsu Junkie]

Originally Posted by kay

really the US? XD
you do know that recording from a military hummer that you hear the soldiers say to one another "there are kids in the area should we stop shooting?..,no its their fault they braught their kids to a war zone"

dont get me wrong i love the US and im actually moving to it next summer and i dont have a problem with its tactics in war or stuff i dont really care if they flaten out villages like they do...alot It just pisess me of when people dont know the subject and bash a state souly on what they hear on cbs or nbc which are totaly full of lies, like with that "peace" flotila to gaza

See? Didn't that feel good? But the next hit's gonna cost ya...

But yes, really, the US. I used your own example of pamphlets to illustrate that it isn't some kind of Israeli-only scheme during wartime. Did you click the link? The fact that some American soldiers can be callous isn't proof that the US Army never does anything as noble as the IDF. And frankly, if that were true, I would be skeptical of your love for the US -- or use it as an illustration of why you can't be trusted as a source for why Israel is worthy of support.

And incidentally, the "peace flotilla" was running a blockade, and breached national waters during a conflict. It's obvious they were baiting Israel, and that nation took the bait. But I don't really have a problem with the outcome, since they were stupid enough to challenge a military blockade.

[kay]

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

See? Didn't that feel good? But the next hit's gonna cost ya...

But yes, really, the US. I used your own example of pamphlets to illustrate that it isn't some kind of Israeli-only scheme during wartime. Did you click the link? The fact that some American soldiers can be callous isn't proof that the US Army never does anything as noble as the IDF. And frankly, if that were true, I would be skeptical of your love for the US -- or use it as an illustration of why you can't be trusted as a source for why Israel is worthy of support.

And incidentally, the "peace flotilla" was running a blockade, and breached national waters during a conflict. It's obvious they were baiting Israel, and that nation took the bait. But I don't really have a problem with the outcome, since they were stupid enough to challenge a military blockade.

I never said the IDF is noble and I never said that the US army is bad I was doing the same thing everyone here was to show you ho annoying it is taking one thing and generalizing on an entire nation or army.
it just pisess me of that everyone here are so one sided with no idea of the subject.
and I've never heard of a peace flotila that has switch knifes as an "imidiate equipment* and I never heard of any flotila throwing soldiers over board stabing them and beating them with chairs and you can hear on radio recording of the IDF unit the sildiers saying to each other " dont shoot thats what they want...dont fire" but when the "peace" flotila people take their pistols I dont think anyone would hold fire

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by kay

I never said the IDF is noble and I never said that the US army is bad I was doing the same thing everyone here was to show you ho annoying it is taking one thing and generalizing on an entire nation or army.
it just pisess me of that everyone here are so one sided with no idea of the subject.
and I've never heard of a peace flotila that has switch knifes as an "imidiate equipment* and I never heard of any flotila throwing soldiers over board stabing them and beating them with chairs and you can hear on radio recording of the IDF unit the sildiers saying to each other " dont shoot thats what they want...dont fire" but when the "peace" flotila people take their pistols I dont think anyone would hold fire

Hey, I've done 2 research projects, both researching BOTH SIDES of the conflict, so you can't say I have no reasons.

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by kay

I never said the IDF is noble and I never said that the US army is bad I was doing the same thing everyone here was to show you ho annoying it is taking one thing and generalizing on an entire nation or army.
it just pisess me of that everyone here are so one sided with no idea of the subject.
and I've never heard of a peace flotila that has switch knifes as an "imidiate equipment* and I never heard of any flotila throwing soldiers over board stabing them and beating them with chairs and you can hear on radio recording of the IDF unit the sildiers saying to each other " dont shoot thats what they want...dont fire" but when the "peace" flotila people take their pistols I dont think anyone would hold fire

Also, have you ever heard of something called "the reality" of life, the disgusting-ness of human nature, our fervor to kill, our need to conquer, our desire for power. It is only human nature on all sides. NO SIDE does not have bad things going on like that. The world is one corrupt ball of crap. Reflect on that philosophy.

[TheTrueMasterofIllusions]

Um, Ur mom, what do you take on how some people treat their women? I'm wandering, don't bite my head off or anything.

[P A N D A]

Terrorism in general is retarded.
Certain people have there own sadistic
reasons for doing the things they do. AND
You cant blame an entire country for what certain
individuals do.

[DeemonFox]

Originally Posted by kay

How can all of you people have the guts to bash israel like this?
all of you know the subjext from cnn and cbs and think you're full of info about this!
Israel is Israel and will stay Israel forever!
even by the muslim bible we were here and have just as much as a right as they do to live here, and how can you say that its ok to hate israle? its just plain out saying its ok to be a racist anti sametic bigget, what country is more humantrian then israel?! what army air drops flaiers booklets that tell civilian to leave the war zone?!
you dont have the right to say sh!t about israel!

Most of the people here are unbiased observers and so provide a more objective view on the matter. Besides, both sides share the blame and are unwilling to compromise.

Originally Posted by kay

well to me terrorisem is the lowest anyone can sink because you're baisicly killing people who did nothing agianst you and have no fude with you just because you're an idiot.

http://firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/is...tional-waters/

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-09/w...df?_s=PM:WORLD

Does that make them terrorists?

Originally Posted by kay

It just pisess me of when people dont know the subject and bash a state souly on what they hear on cbs or nbc which are totaly full of lies, like with that "peace" flotila to gaza

Really, are you that sensitive. I live in the US and I can tell you that the majority of people here are pro israel, especially after 911. Do you know why? Most people here are Christian and believe that in order for jesus to return the jews have to be in their proper place.

[Ur Mom]

Originally Posted by kay

na ah I've had enough!
you atlist know the subject like me and talk about it but i hate it when people just sit in their chairs in eroupe or the US watch cbs and think they know everything about everything when they actually know nothing of the subject and just act like blind media led sheep

I'm Muslim, don't you think I know how that feels

Originally Posted by Jutsu Junkie

Seriously? You do know this is the Interweb, right? No guts required.



I'm wondering how myself, since no one said that.


Um, the US.



Um, the US. I'm getting dejavu.



Actually we do. You too can bash Israel, or any other nation, to your heart's content. Come on, try it. The first hit is free... *taps the needle*

USA my arse. If anything third party in all of this, I'd pick Sweden

Originally Posted by TheTrueMasterofIllusions

Um, Ur mom, what do you take on how some people treat their women? I'm wandering, don't bite my head off or anything.

*bites head off*
Depends, are we talking about America or the Muslim world. In the Muslim world, it's only bad because they made it that way. It wasn't as bad until the Ottomans fell. As for America, I just hate it, I've seen SO MUCH sexism, I truly hate it. It's one of those things I have to silently reject.