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Old 08-02-2010, 12:21 PM   #1
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Default *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Let me inform you that to best follow what I'm saying, you might (will) need the following items:

1. Volume 43 of Naruto (Page 174, chapter 399)
2. "September" Issue of Shounen Jump (American Version, should have Ultimo on the cover.)

Sasuke, as far as we know, is off in the deep end.
He's betrayed his teammates, taken his brother's eyes, and killed many in cold blood. However. I think there is something more than just that going on.
Surely, Sasuke was shaken upon discovering the truth behind Itachi, that he was a Martyr to the Leaf Village. While listening to Madara's story, Sasuke noted something. On page 174 of Volume 43 of Naruto, panels two and three. Look at them. Sasuke noticed that when Madara spoke of his brother "Izuna Uchiha", Madara gripped his own arm, revealing that it was a sore subject for Madara to talk of his own brother. Madara even went so far as to show emotion toward his own brother's death.

Sasuke, having lost someone important to him (that person being Itachi.) awoke his Mangekyo Sharingan.

Now take a look at Chapter 480 of Naruto. (Page 66 in Shonen Jump.)
Danzo has taken Sasuke's teammate Karin hostage.
Look at panels 4 and 5. They are of Sasuke "hesitating". Ultimately, Sasuke decides to stab through Karin to kill Danzo. But I think those panels were more of Sasuke waiting... watching. Looking for the perfect moment to strike, missing Karin's vital spot and hitting Danzo's. He even told Karin; "Don't move, Karin." And then struck. This is where we assume Sasuke has become entirely villainous. But it may not be that way exactly.

A Ninja of Sasuke's caliber would obviously be able to sense approaching Shinobi, correct? And on top of that, his Sharingan is able to see other people's chakra as colors.

I think he knew Sakura was in the area. I think he was waiting for her to show up, so she could heal Karin. And then, we see Sasuke attempt to kill Sakura.
If Sasuke could sense Sakura in the area, he could most certainly sense Kakashi's presence as well, could he not?
Knowing that Kakashi would stop him, he moved in for the kill on Sakura.
Then there was the whole battle with Naruto and such...

Naruto was moved and determined to become stronger after this fight, and Sasuke knew that Naruto would only keep getting stronger.

But this is where things get interesting.
After this battle, Kabuto shows up out of nowhere. And Sasuke transplants Itachi's eyes with his own, gaining even more power.

I think that Sasuke somehow fed the information on Madara's brother to Kabuto, so that Kabuto would be able to use it against Madara.
Sasuke spent three whole years with Orochimaru and Kabuto, and he must have known that Kabuto would have been affected by Orochimaru's death.
Sasuke used that weakness to manipulate Kabuto.

I think that Izuna Uchiha was in the coffin that Kabuto summoned, because what was inside of that coffin was the one other thing aside from his own brother's death that actually stirred emotion within the usually cold and vile Madara we know.

Madara said that Kabuto could have Sasuke when the Fourth Great Shinobi War was over, right?
Well.

What if Sasuke said to Kabuto, "I'll give myself over to you after the war, because I am currently becoming strong enough to defeat Madara myself."
Sasuke would say that, knowing that Naruto would become strong enough to defeat Kabuto and possibly, if Sasuke himself does not defeat him, Madara as well.
Naruto is strong as hell right now, and is only getting better, am I right?

I think Sasuke it following the path his Brother followed. Gaining more and more power so that his rival (in this case, Naruto) will become strong enough to do what he can not do.
Taking lives and pretending to be a monster to save the world from absolute destruction, and leaving the job of being a Savior to Naruto.
All in all.

Sasuke = Itachi
Naruto = Sasuke

Sasuke will make the sacrifice of his own life to be the birth of the hero we will know as "Naruto: the Orange Hokage 'ttebayo!"

... Just a theory, though.

(If I wasn't clear about anything, or you don't understand anything I've said, just let me know and I'll explain it in better detail.)
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Good theory.And I agree with Izuna was in that coffin.Otherwise, Madara wouldn't have been affected by it.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

very good theory i could actually see this coming true.
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Interesting, and i have to agree it's a good theory, because how it can all possibly make sense. = )
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Good, great and awesome theory. The thing about Karin makes sense totally and congrats for having an eye for details. I never noticed madara's agitation when he spoke about his brother.

The thing about Sasuke playing Itachi makes sense and at the same time seems too far fetched. But anyways a good theory.

This has given me a thought as well but I'll first read all the necessary chapters and post it here.
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Old 08-02-2010, 01:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Whoa. Well, thanks for the compliments everyone.
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

I think this better belongs in the Town Bookstore, since it's about the manga. IF you need help moving the thread, click Thread Tools at the top.

Then, choose Town Bookstore.

Hope that helped.
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

You should summarize that post, it's kinda long

--

Any who the Jutsu will bring back the person up until there death. Izuna died shortly after his eye's were took. So he has no eye if so he was to bring back to life. Madara won't be scared of his eyeless brother. Any who he won't be a threat to him either. Kabuto would of had brought someone back that is clearly a thread to Madara... As for Sasuke he kinda likes Madara, and he clearly does not like Kabuto nor does Kabuto like Sasuke (yea well. he may not like Sasuke but he wants his power).

Sasuke does not care for Naruto one bit. He has a small interest in him because of his Naruto's power. Sasuke like to keep himself in check by Naruto's power. Hence he is all way's one step above Naruto. Now if Naruto were to die Sasuke wont care at all.

And also Sasuke said he'll kill Kabuto and Madara. He meant it and why the hell would he give Naruto the honer to do that? If Sasuke does not kill Kabuto and wail he is a threat to Madara; Madara will kill him, his self.

Aslo

Quote:
Sasuke will make the sacrifice of his own life to be the birth of the hero we will know as "Naruto: the Orange Hokage 'ttebayo!"
that won't happen because

  • Sasuke will not die for Naruto
  • Naruto is all ready a Hero
  • Kishi Said when the Sasuke vs Naruto happens that's probably the end of Naruto
  • And by your logic Sasuke will be reincarnated into Naruto?
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Im sorry if im being rude but I dont like this theory. Its very well thought but its just to far out their. I would be very confused with Kishi if he did the same plot twist twice, cus thats just being lazy with the main plot, which he's never done before.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Only person that could get "Madara" (imposeter) moved like that is either: Izuna, or his very own body. Theory was good until it got to the end. Sasuke working a secret operation and being good is a hells no. 5 Kages are after him, he tooked his brothers eyes that guy is sicked. Most importantly he murdered the elderly xD.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yori View Post
Only person that could get "Madara" (imposeter) moved like that is either: Izuna, or his very own body. Theory was good until it got to the end. Sasuke working a secret operation and being good is a hells no. 5 Kages are after him, he tooked his brothers eyes that guy is sicked. Most importantly he murdered the elderly xD.
I don't see how and eyeless brother of his is a threat to Madara...
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

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Originally Posted by zerosameri View Post
I don't see how and eyeless brother of his is a threat to Madara...
Well it would startled him. But your right, hell could be someone who hasn't been introduced into the story.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
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Well it would startled him. But your right, hell could be someone who hasn't been introduced into the story.
Current Madara doesn't really care if he summoned his brother, sure he might be a but pissed but he'll get over it in no time.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
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Well it would startled him. But your right, hell could be someone who hasn't been introduced into the story.
This is what makes the most sense to me, but most likely its not going to happen
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitastic View Post
Let me inform you that to best follow what I'm saying, you might (will) need the following items:

1. Volume 43 of Naruto (Page 174, chapter 399)
2. "September" Issue of Shounen Jump (American Version, should have Ultimo on the cover.)

Sasuke, as far as we know, is off in the deep end.
He's betrayed his teammates, taken his brother's eyes, and killed many in cold blood. However. I think there is something more than just that going on.
Surely, Sasuke was shaken upon discovering the truth behind Itachi, that he was a Martyr to the Leaf Village. While listening to Madara's story, Sasuke noted something. On page 174 of Volume 43 of Naruto, panels two and three. Look at them. Sasuke noticed that when Madara spoke of his brother "Izuna Uchiha", Madara gripped his own arm, revealing that it was a sore subject for Madara to talk of his own brother. Madara even went so far as to show emotion toward his own brother's death.

Sasuke, having lost someone important to him (that person being Itachi.) awoke his Mangekyo Sharingan.

Now take a look at Chapter 480 of Naruto. (Page 66 in Shonen Jump.)
Danzo has taken Sasuke's teammate Karin hostage.
Look at panels 4 and 5. They are of Sasuke "hesitating". Ultimately, Sasuke decides to stab through Karin to kill Danzo. But I think those panels were more of Sasuke waiting... watching. Looking for the perfect moment to strike, missing Karin's vital spot and hitting Danzo's. He even told Karin; "Don't move, Karin." And then struck. This is where we assume Sasuke has become entirely villainous. But it may not be that way exactly.

A Ninja of Sasuke's caliber would obviously be able to sense approaching Shinobi, correct? And on top of that, his Sharingan is able to see other people's chakra as colors.

I think he knew Sakura was in the area. I think he was waiting for her to show up, so she could heal Karin. And then, we see Sasuke attempt to kill Sakura.
If Sasuke could sense Sakura in the area, he could most certainly sense Kakashi's presence as well, could he not?
Knowing that Kakashi would stop him, he moved in for the kill on Sakura.
Then there was the whole battle with Naruto and such...

Naruto was moved and determined to become stronger after this fight, and Sasuke knew that Naruto would only keep getting stronger.

But this is where things get interesting.
After this battle, Kabuto shows up out of nowhere. And Sasuke transplants Itachi's eyes with his own, gaining even more power.

I think that Sasuke somehow fed the information on Madara's brother to Kabuto, so that Kabuto would be able to use it against Madara.
Sasuke spent three whole years with Orochimaru and Kabuto, and he must have known that Kabuto would have been affected by Orochimaru's death.
Sasuke used that weakness to manipulate Kabuto.

I think that Izuna Uchiha was in the coffin that Kabuto summoned, because what was inside of that coffin was the one other thing aside from his own brother's death that actually stirred emotion within the usually cold and vile Madara we know.

Madara said that Kabuto could have Sasuke when the Fourth Great Shinobi War was over, right?
Well.

What if Sasuke said to Kabuto, "I'll give myself over to you after the war, because I am currently becoming strong enough to defeat Madara myself."
Sasuke would say that, knowing that Naruto would become strong enough to defeat Kabuto and possibly, if Sasuke himself does not defeat him, Madara as well.
Naruto is strong as hell right now, and is only getting better, am I right?

I think Sasuke it following the path his Brother followed. Gaining more and more power so that his rival (in this case, Naruto) will become strong enough to do what he can not do.
Taking lives and pretending to be a monster to save the world from absolute destruction, and leaving the job of being a Savior to Naruto.
All in all.

Sasuke = Itachi
Naruto = Sasuke

Sasuke will make the sacrifice of his own life to be the birth of the hero we will know as "Naruto: the Orange Hokage 'ttebayo!"

... Just a theory, though.

(If I wasn't clear about anything, or you don't understand anything I've said, just let me know and I'll explain it in better detail.)

I believe Madara gripped his arm because he was lying.
He first stated that he did steal the eyes and then later
said that the eyes were given to him. Madara stole Izuna's eyes.

As for Sasuke...it's possible he could be like the Itachi Twist and instead
be the Sasuke Twist...but like the Itachi Twist it will be horrible retcon.
In any case Sasuke is gonna need Naruto's help to defeat Madara.
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I believe Madara gripped his arm because he was lying.
He first stated that he did steal the eyes and then later
said that the eyes were given to him. Madara stole Izuna's eyes.

As for Sasuke...it's possible he could be like the Itachi Twist and instead
be the Sasuke Twist...but like the Itachi Twist it will be horrible retcon.
In any case Sasuke is gonna need Naruto's help to defeat Madara.
Madara is an awesome liar, and when did he said he stole them?
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: *Spoilers* The "Ultimate" Sasuke Theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerosameri View Post
Madara is an awesome liar, and when did he said he stole them?
Sasuke: You stole your brother's eyes... merely to heighten your reputation?!

Here we can see Sasuke is obviously disgusted. Before he remembers
Itachi talking about measuring one's capacity.

Madara: ....I did steal them...but it was to obtain strength necessary to protect my clan.


Madara admits to the stealing of the eyes here but goes on to find a way to try and justify stealing Izuna's eyes by having the stealing of the eyes benefit the entire clan and not just himself.

Sasuke: To protect the clan?

Sasuke questions how stealing Izuna's eyes would help at all.

Madara: As Uchiha's name increased in prominence so did the number of our enemies. Amidst ferocious battles...it was an unavoidable sacrifice
to protect the clan from external foes, starting with the Senju Clan

Madara furthers tries to justify by stating how the situation made it necessary for him to steal the eyes. Madara calls it an unavoidable
sacrifice making it sound like he had no choice in the matter. Then
he switches focus to the Senju Clan so that they are the bad guys.
Madara is basically saying that he stole the eyes because enemies
like the Senju Clan had forced him into that position. Madara makes
it sound like he's the victim here. Just like how he later makes Itachi
sound like a victim even though according to his story Itachi still
made the choice to murder his own clan.

Madara: It wasn't for selfish reasons

Madara says that stealing his brother's eyes wasn't for selfish reasons
but if he was truly not being selfish he would give up his own eyes to
Izuna instead. But the truth is that it was for selfish reasons.

Madara: And my brother was fully aware and agreed with it. In fact he volunteered his eyes to me.

Madara here is now changing his story. First he says he stole Izuna's eyes
but was justified by the situation. But now he's saying that Izuna gave up
the eyes. Those are two different things. If Izuna gave up the eyes then
Madara did NOT steal them and should not say he stole them. If Izuna
did not give up the eyes (which makes very little sense for him to do so)
then Madara did in fact steal them. Since Madara can't keep his story
straight here he most likely did steal them or is twisting the truth like
how he did with Nine Tails attack (it was natural disaster in that births
are natural and this one [because of Madara] ended in a disaster)

Right after Madara says the eyes were volunteered he grabs his sleeve.
Some might think this is an emotional response (like someone clenching their fist when they're angry) but it is much more likely an involuntary
action caused by him making a lie. The next panel with Sasuke studying
Madara shows it more likely to be a lie. Remember that Sasuke started
off asking "Why should I believe you? You're untrustworthy". Sasuke
is watching to see any indication that Madara is lying and here he is.

Madara: But then, one day...The Senju Clan proposed a cease fire to Uchiha. ...And Uchiha concurred.

Now Madara is changing subjects. According to Madara, Izuna had now given up his eyes. But there's no real reason for him to do so. To protect the clan? How would disabling himself protect the clan. Sure, Madara got
the EMS but how would Izuna know that would happen? Madara doesn't
have a reason for this because Izuna didn't give up his eyes. He changes
subjects to avoid having to answer such a question. It makes far more
sense that Madara stole his brother's eyes out of desperation and got
lucky when it actually gave him sight again. Remember Itachi said that
Madara did it as a last resort. Madara also avoids talking about how
the MS made him ill in the first place. Sasuke knows for sure now the
MS makes one ill but from his own use with one in the Kage Summit
fight but at that point he had already believed Madara's story.
Before Sasuke never used the MS and only saw Itachi use it.
Madara changes the subject to Senju vs Uchiha.


Madara: The majority of folks on both sides were tired of the endless conflict. They'd reach their limit. I was the sole dissenter to the cease fire.

Here Madara is likely being honest as a lie here wouldn't make much sense.
Madara already explained that he lived during a time of battle and war so
it wouldn't fit his story to now say he wanted peace. Madara is trying
to get Sasuke to forget about his brother for a moment and wonder why
Madara wouldn't want peace and as Sasuke goes "...?" it can be seen
it worked. Madara got Sasuke distracted from the Izuna story.

Madara: Where'd all out mutual hatred go?! I asked. For what purpose had my brother sacrificed himself!?

Now Madara is trying to make the peace sound like a bad thing and make himself and his brother Izuna the victim again. Izuna's "sacrifice" is now
wasted and was in vain. Also Madara is trying to make it sound like peace
is not an option and only winning is what matters. He wants Sasuke to think it's all or nothing. Either Uchiha wins or Senju wins and if Uchiha
agrees to peace then Senju wins (and Madara later goes on with this
point by making the Uchiha sound like they were discriminated by Senju)

Madara: Uchiha and Senju were always like oil and water.

Oil and Water don't mix. Uchiha and Senju literally cannot get along.
So now a peace treaty means nothing and will only end up with more
fighting. Also again Madara is changing focus to the Senju being
the bad guys. Madara uses the oil/water analogy to avoid having
to explain why Uchiha and Senju don't get along. It's not that they
don't it's that they can't. At least according to Madara.


That is why I think Madara stole his brother's eyes along with the information we got from Itachi. Along with knowing Madara DID
in fact lie about Nine Tails and henceforth would lie about stealing
eyes too.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:27 AM   #18
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I've never seen it in that light before. Amazing idea. And it suits perfectly.
Really both thumbs up for this theory, I hope it's true.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I believe Madara gripped his arm because he was lying.
He first stated that he did steal the eyes and then later
said that the eyes were given to him. Madara stole Izuna's eyes.
Possible. But I think Madara/Tobi is too skilled to show emotion while lying. There must be some sort of trick on Kishi's part or a subtle message which coupled with the coffin gives a whole new theory(which has already been discussed to death) but there are too many holes to even start thinking about that again.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:44 AM   #20
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Possible. But I think Madara/Tobi is too skilled to show emotion while lying. There must be some sort of trick on Kishi's part or a subtle message which coupled with the coffin gives a whole new theory(which has already been discussed to death) but there are too many holes to even start thinking about that again.
If it's involuntary than Madara couldn't control it anyways.

You know how there's that thing about looking off to the side when you lie?

It's like that. People do those kind of things involuntary. Without thinking.

(Though it varies what they do.)
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