Hitler

[XxblackxX]

Hitler, good man, bad decision?


Okay, earlier today, me and my uncle were discussing the holocaust, and how Hitler and the Nazi's treated jews. He than told me he believed Hitler was a good man, but made bad decisions.

I for one think he is good and bad. He used his power for evil, in which he could've used his powers to kill the Jews and meet his goal of taking over the entire world. But, he caused the holocaust, he killed the Jews, destroyed nations, he turned Germany against the world.


Debate. Tell me what you all think.

[JCTKNE4E]

Besides unifying a rather weak germany under the Nazi Party's propaganda, what GOOD did he do?

He COULD have done a lot of good, in his position. But he never showed any inclination or desire to do so, so there is nothing that he's done that could be viewed as potentially good hearted. Nothing that shows that he was a good man who simply made a bad decision.

Genocide is a BIT more than that, don't you think?

[XxblackxX]

Well, I don't know exactly. This is just what my uncle thought. I neleive he was made up pure evil. No good was inside him.

[Vornmusion]

/engages philosophical mode

What you define as good and bad are not the universal balance. To you the holocaust was a bad thing, to the Nazis it was a good thing. What makes your view of right and wrong the true balance of the universe? That Genocide is bad? To them (and others to this day) it wasn't. A never ending loop. Humans cannot answer this question, it is beyond our current mental capabilities. To judge one without knowing the basis to judge is being human I suppose.

/disengages philosophical mode

So yeah, I don't think he was good or bad. I think he was a man that made the mistake of angering the rest of the world before he was actually ready to take it on.

[gama-sennin]

Hitler. The man is debated so many times in so many places that there is not much left to say about him. Every debate invariably ends with him being labeled as the evil incarnate and rightfully so.

The reasons for his rise -if anyone has read "Mein Kamf" original- were in sociopolitical situation of post WW1 Germany. The ridiculously down valued Mark had made life impossible for the poor people. The even more ridiculous terms of the post war treaty(insult) caused much more anger than the empty stomach. Hitler saw all this and much more, something his opponents couldn't even think about. This gave rise to his ambition of making Germany the most powerful, best country in the world.

The phenomenal hold this man had on the people of Germany is/was unparalleled throughout the history. After the failure of the 1923 mutiny he was imprisoned and the country started healing the wounds and making economic progress as well. But the moment he came out of jail the people started following him again. For even the simplest of minds, pride of their country always takes priority over anything else. Hitler knew that and used it to his advantage.

The another reason for his rise was thee good-for-nothing Chamberlain regime of England. No doubt Neville Chamberlain was a great man but just like Gandhi he took wrong route for wrong cause. He tried to appease Hitler by giving in to his demands because he knew and so did everyone that Hitler's initial demands were not only just but rightful as well. But as the Prime Minister of the largest empire Neville Chamberlain should have foreseen the kind of menace Hitler was turning into. To avoid a war that would never have happened Chamberlain gave away Austria and Czechoslovakia. Even Hitler later remarked that had Chamberlain stood his ground, he wouldn't have dared to ask for even a piece of both the countries. Also the political situation of England of 1935 wasn't really healthy one.

That was the period when Hitler realized that the big states of France and England were too cowardly to stop him, even though that wasn't the case about England. That was when the downfall started. A life that should have been remembered in Germany as patriot became a curse word.

The atrocities he committed for power and land and no reason whatsoever are unforgivable, though not uncommon if you check the history books. He killed millions of innocent Jews, just for being what they were and not because they had committed any crime. The concentration camps were nothing short of Hell(if there really is one), actually worse. The way the families were torn apart and murdered was beyond brutality and cruelty, it was inhuman. He even killed those who helped him in attaining his position. The Gestapo, the SS all helped Hitler in this barbaric act, which should have been stopped.

The blame and shame for the murders in WW2 goes to England as much as it goes to Hitler. Hitler became the curse because he had(or so he thought) no one to check his actions and stop him, by force if necessary. If only Churchill was the Prime Minister instead of "Hitler-missed-his-bus" Chamberlain none of this would have happened.

[mrsticky005]

If Hitler is good than slavery especially racial slavery is ok.

There's a difference between a one time murderer and genocide.

Though generally speaking both are wrong.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

I don't think the concepts of right and wrong really apply to someone that completely twisted in their beliefs and ideals. While he did murder millions of Jews (keep in mind I myself am Jewish as I say this), he did do it with (supposedly) the best possible intent for his country and the world.

With that said, there is no justifiable way to explain his actions save for a completely broken moral compass/mind. You could argue that he's evil, or you could argue that he's good. The fact of the matter is, you're only evil in someone else's eyes. Those who think themselves evil are, in fact, good enough to recognize the wrongness of their actions, an inherently good thing.

Then again, this all depends on your definition of good and evil...

I wouldn't use the terms good or bad because as Vorn said..to some he was good and others he was bad.

I found him to be extremely brilliant...though in my perspective what he did was effed up beyond belief, he still to this day is considered a genius for his tactical strategies with WW2 and his leadership over the country with his propaganda manipulation. To this day no one has matched this even on the complete opposite end with democracy. He was able to almost COMPLETELY unify all of Germany under one banner of government which we all know as Nazi's. Even America has yet to do this with our "good" govermental templates.

He was a sick, twisted individual...but absolutely brilliant.

[Azal]

Originally Posted by XxblackxX

Hitler, good man, bad decision?


Okay, earlier today, me and my uncle were discussing the holocaust, and how Hitler and the Nazi's treated jews. He than told me he believed Hitler was a good man, but made bad decisions.

I for one think he is good and bad. He used his power for evil, in which he could've used his powers to kill the Jews and meet his goal of taking over the entire world. But, he caused the holocaust, he killed the Jews, destroyed nations, he turned Germany against the world.


Debate. Tell me what you all think.

i think he was a terrible man even though i wouldnt be alive if he had not studied allergies

i dont owe my life to him just because he did something that someone couldv done possibly a year later

sadly my brother worships this man and he is probably gonna become a neonazi

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

I don't think the concepts of right and wrong really apply to someone that completely twisted in their beliefs and ideals. While he did murder millions of Jews (keep in mind I myself am Jewish as I say this), he did do it with (supposedly) the best possible intent for his country and the world.

With that said, there is no justifiable way to explain his actions save for a completely broken moral compass/mind. You could argue that he's evil, or you could argue that he's good. The fact of the matter is, you're only evil in someone else's eyes. Those who think themselves evil are, in fact, good enough to recognize the wrongness of their actions, an inherently good thing.

Then again, this all depends on your definition of good and evil...

Bob believes that black people are the scum of the earth.
Bob believes that the only way to deal with scum is either kill them
or make them into slaves so at least they can be doing something useful.
Is Bob wrong to think this way?

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Bob believes that black people are the scum of the earth.
Bob believes that the only way to deal with scum is either kill them
or make them into slaves so at least they can be doing something useful.
Is Bob wrong to think this way?

What is Bob's logic behind thinking they are the scum of the Earth?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

What is Bob's logic behind thinking they are the scum of the Earth?

What's Hitler's logic behind thinking Jews are the scum of the earth?

People are not scum until they do scummy things.

[gama-sennin]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Bob believes that black people are the scum of the earth.
Bob believes that the only way to deal with scum is either kill them
or make them into slaves so at least they can be doing something useful.
Is Bob wrong to think this way?

If Bob has the power to do it, he will surely try. This was the most common concept of no-so-distant past. Back then thee conflicts were resolved through power and not discussions. The 300 year old slavery is almost as bad as WW2 Genocide.

Originally Posted by SageoftheSixPaths

What is Bob's logic behind thinking they are the scum of the Earth?

No logic is needed. What was Hitler's logic behind killing some innocent kid. Thee only reason for Genocide was Hitler's personal hate for Jewish community and same can said about Bob.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by gama-sennin

If Bob has the power to do it, he will surely try. This was the most common concept of no-so-distant past. Back then thee conflicts were resolved through power and not discussions. The 300 year old slavery is almost as bad as WW2 Genocide.



No logic is needed. What was Hitler's logic behind killing some innocent kid. Thee only reason for Genocide was Hitler's personal hate for Jewish community and same can said about Bob.

Slavery IS as a bad as WW2 Genocide. They are both atrocious.
It would be better had they never happened. But sadly they did.

[gama-sennin]

The thing with Hitler is, he is almost as fascinating as he is repulsive. Its been 65 years since he killed himself but the mere mention of his name still makes people curious. I can only imagine how it must have been when he was alive. If only Churchill was Prime Minister in 1935. Things would have turned out way better.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by gama-sennin

The thing with Hitler is, he is almost as fascinating as he is repulsive. Its been 65 years since he killed himself but the mere mention of his name still makes people curious. I can only imagine how it must have been when he was alive. If only Churchill was Prime Minister in 1935. Things would have turned out way better.

We want to learn more about him because we want to avoid a 2nd Hitler.

[gama-sennin]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

We want to learn more about him because we want to avoid a 2nd Hitler.

I dont think its possible. Not only Hitler was one of a kind but there are others already making claims for the position of scum in chief. In last 60 years far greater number of people have been killed than in genocide. Many small countries like Vietnam and Afghanistan paid the price for the cold war between two most powerful nations namely US and Russia. In Africa the dictators slaughter villages after villages and they are not even patriots. Those who try to oppose the government are silenced by hook or crook.

The only thing different in this world is that, in 1940 there was only one Hitler and he was in the open but now there are many Hitlers hiding and waiting for their chance to strike against society.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by gama-sennin

I dont think its possible. Not only Hitler was one of a kind but there are others already making claims for the position of scum in chief. In last 60 years far greater number of people have been killed than in genocide. Many small countries like Vietnam and Afghanistan paid the price for the cold war between two most powerful nations namely US and Russia. In Africa the dictators slaughter villages after villages and they are not even patriots. Those who try to oppose the government are silenced by hook or crook.

The only thing different in this world is that, in 1940 there was only one Hitler and he was in the open but now there are many Hitlers hiding and waiting for their chance to strike against society.

It's scary but it's the truth.

[PlatonicZombie]

The metaphysical sense of good and evil does not exist. Good and bad are merely subject to an individuals perspective. (as this was very well articulated by Vormussion)
That being said, if you look into it, there were medical breakthroughs and medical studies furthered due to what the Nazi's did in the camps. Does this make it right? Do the things we do to animals make it right for the discoveries we get? I'd personally say no, but I cannot blame those that would say yes.

[mrsticky005]

The Golden Rule:

Treat others the way you want to be treated...or better.

Since any sane person would not want to be harmed or have their families harmed then it would not be right for a sane person to commit murder as
they are treating others WORSE then they would want to be treated themselves. Now before tries to be a smart aleck and say "well what if someone is a masochist" well then they would likely not be a sane person.
Therefore they would be insane. Someone who is insane, legally speaking,
cannot recognize right from wrong. They are neither good nor bad but
are insane. Insane people need help. Sane people who harm others
need to be locked away or executed to ensure the safety of others.
Hitler harmed others, even if he didn't do it with his own hands.

So the question is...was Hitler insane or just plain evil? That I dunno.

Another question might be...Are Jews (and everyone else Hitler had killed) even considered people? If Jews are not people then the golden rule
may not apply to them. However since Jews are people then the golden rule applies. Hitler may have not considered Jews as people but that
doesn't mean he was right in killing them. Hitler's not considering Jews
people is him trying to find an excuse for his hatred of them.