Akatsuki Tier List. - Page 16

Yuuta · 11-26-2009, 10:49 AM

Not really. To me, an attack from Konan is a Paper Shuriken or Paper Spear or whatever. She didn't attack as just a swarm of paper. When she found him, or rather the genin, she covered him up in paper and reformed her head to make a paper spear. Just covering them up doesn't require consious thought. Well, she obviously can't see or hear when splitting up since papers don't have eyes or ears. I'm guessing that she remotely controls all of them from one peice of paper and uses chakra detection.

The chakra detection theory has many holes, as Konan even blanketed Ryuski's scarf separately from his body. Also, she knew which exact slip was covering the mouth. And makes sure to either add or remove it. She controls all of them with exact precision. Whenever chakra sense has been shown it's been as a general sense / feeling, not precision. If she relied on chakra sense alone, Ryuski's scarf would've been pressed against him, as she would only know the general direction of his chakra and keep supplying paper in that direction - but instead, his scarf is immobilized perfectly in the air and independently, though it lacks chakra.

EDIT: If you don't believe me, it's Chapter 371, Page 15.

I see this debate as going into who would outlast who, which was basically what the entire Jugo VS Konan debate was.

I repeat, there are similarities in the ways that they would have to fight Konan to be semi effective. Konan's feats have shown that she has a great amount of chakra and can keep going. And the similarities are reasons why I'm arguing both.

Suigetsu is pretty fast, the paper butterflies and airplanes aren't actually that fast. He could probably cut up some before she could dodge, and replinishing paper still takes chakra.

He would have to be using chakra to move chakra into his arms to keep swinging his sword that's being blanketed in paper. His speed would inevitably decrease, along with his chakra. You never really countered that point.
And also, it's not her butterflies or paper planes that she would be using in combat, she only used those for reconnassaince and guiding. Her swarm of paper is what she'd be using, and honestly it's pretty fast if it can catch Jiraya off guard and several jonin.

Also, it's Konan's paper replenishing speed that we started this on, and it's obviously rapid as we covered before.

Hydration jutsu still allows him to avoid any of Konan's attacks.

So you've admitted it's a jutsu, then. When he's hit, he'll turn to water and lose chakra. Chakra isn't indefinite. Also, as I've said before, he's be using more chakra to keep on trying to swing his sword. If he abadons the effort, he has absolutely no way to hurt Konan.

Also, I don't see a way for him to escape blanketing. Everytime he's hydrolized, it's been a part of his body. If a swarm of paper was coming at him from all sides, he would be covered.

You could say that he could just turn to water and escape. He hasn't shown the ability to turn to water spontaneously, but when he's attacked. Since you say you do not see suffocation as a form of attack, he would not hydrolize. Additionally, every time he's hydrolized, a portion of his body has remained intact, be it the top of his head or otherwise. He has never managed a complete water transformation, at least in the manga. Because of this, his mouth / a portion of his body could still be blanketed and covered. You could argue that he has become completely water, but everytime he has it has not been on his own will, and has been recuperation. He was kept contained on both incidents, and there was additional water with air circulating that he could use to breathe - like a fish. If it was only him, blanketed in a cucoon of paper, he could try to turn into water, but it would only be him, with a limited supply of air, and he would eventually pass out. Also, his watery form is affectable, Jugo was still able to pick him up, so he can most likely be killed this way.

She never said why, she just said it'd be the last time she used her paper clone.

She did say why, she was dispelling her paper clone because she was going to see Nagato in person.

Well, she did have prep on her side, and I don't see maintaining them as a great feat since I don't think it would take much to keep it up once it's seperate from her body. Yes, but she had time inbetween some of those things to rest and replinish her chakra. She didn't do them all at once.

Here I must disagree. She split into butterflies, searched the whole city, reported back to Pain, attacked Jiraya, fought off Jiraya, and remained in paper mode for the rest of the battle. She did this all at once.
You've admitted that her jutsu doesn't take much to keep up. Exactly.

She kept up the gigantic tree, a paper clone, caught several ninja, attacked the Aburame, and reported back to Pain again. Konan has great jutsu control.

While the upper portion of her body had been reformed.

They were formed, but the attack was from her wings.

Since when did she or could she do this?

When she was looking for Jiraya, she split into butterflies and simutaneously covered the entire village.

Examples are Chapter 370 page 2, Chapter 371 pages 8 and 9.

It's not like she can make paper forever, either. And neither does Suigetsu's.

True, but as I've already pointed out, she can do it for a ridiculously long time. Her feats so that she obviously has a lot of chakra. I feel like we're going around in circles here.

Unrefuted...

So can Konan.
You've admitted that the effects cancel each other out.
Soap would be a disadvantage to her, because it would make her paper stick.
For water to cancel this effect, it must do the opposite.
Helpful.
Even so, her jutsu is not hampered by water to the same extend as oil.
Yes. Even in the manga. Chapter 373, Page 11.
It would seem that her chakra infused paper is water resistant.

And it wasn't me who down repped you, that's ridiculous, this is a debate!

People are bound to have different views, you can't down rep people for them.

deidara330 · 11-26-2009, 07:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Yuuta

And it wasn't me who down repped you, that's ridiculous, this is a debate!

People are bound to have different views, you can't down rep people for them.

I was asking Dudemeister, not you. You see, I replied to his post saying that Sasuke was more deep and cool looking than Orochimaru. He responded in this way:

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Wrong on every point and especially wrong on depth and looking cool. Sasuke is a tard through and through. Orochimaru is far more interesting than pretty much every character in the series and should rightly be the Big Bad. Sadly, Kishimoto's lust for the fifteen year old Sasuke is too much to overcome.

It's impossible to be wrong on an opinion since opinions vary with each person and nothing defines them as true or false. I also think that Dudemeister downrepped me for my post, because the rep comment I got was very similar to his response to my post:

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For lying. Sasuke is not deep or cool looking.

Also, I lost exactly one rep point from the downrep. Since downrep is exactly half someone's rep power, it wouldve taken someone with 1 to 3 rep power (the number is rounded down). Dudemeister has exactly one. Additionally, I was downrepped exactly three minutes after he posted:

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11-26-2009 03:09 PM

I don't mean to make him mad by posting this, and I have no definitive proof that he did it, but I just want to say you can't downrep someone because their opinion differs from yours.

@ Yuuta: I'm tired of debating, and i really don't feel like it. I also don't want someone to debate for me. I propose a compromise. I won't move Konan above Jugo, but I will move her above Suigetsu. But if anyone tells me I should move Suigetsu above her, you debate for me since I still don't believe she could beat him. How's that?

Yuuta · 11-26-2009, 07:37 PM

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Originally Posted by deidara330

I was asking Dudemeister, not you. You see, I replied to his post saying that Sasuke was more deep and cool looking than Orochimaru. He responded in this way: It's impossible to be wrong on an opinion since opinions vary with each person and nothing defines them as true or false. I also think that Dudemeister downrepped me for my post, because the rep comment I got was very similar to his response to my post: Also, I lost exactly one rep point from the downrep. Since downrep is exactly half someone's rep power, it wouldve taken someone with 1 to 3 rep power (the number is rounded down). Dudemeister has exactly one. Additionally, I was downrepped exactly three minutes after he posted: I don't mean to make him mad by posting this, and I have no definitive proof that he did it, but I just want to say you can't downrep someone because their opinion differs from yours.

@ Yuuta: I'm tired of debating, and i really don't feel like it. I also don't want someone to debate for me. I propose a compromise. I won't move Konan above Jugo, but I will move her above Suigetsu. But if anyone tells me I should move Suigetsu above her, you debate for me since I still don't believe she could beat him. How's that?

Alright, sounds good! I still think she could beat Jugo, but I'll take that, and I'd be happy to debate for you!

And I'm sorry about your conflict - you cannot down rep someone for their opinion, you can't be wrong on an opinion.
I hope dudemeister understands this eventually.

deidara330 · 11-26-2009, 08:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Yuuta

Alright, sounds good! I still think she could beat Jugo, but I'll take that, and I'd be happy to debate for you!

And I'm sorry about your conflict - you cannot down rep someone for their opinion, you can't be wrong on an opinion.
I hope dudemeister understands this eventually.

I don't think Jugo could lose. Most of what our recent debate was was mainly that Konan has more chakra than Suigetsu and could ultimately outlast her. Even if this is true, we know that Jugo has a much more vast amount of chakra and stamina than Suigetsu, likely putting him above Konan.

Yuuta · 11-26-2009, 09:51 PM

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Originally Posted by deidara330

I don't think Jugo could lose. Most of what our recent debate was was mainly that Konan has more chakra than Suigetsu and could ultimately outlast her. Even if this is true, we know that Jugo has a much more vast amount of chakra and stamina than Suigetsu, likely putting him above Konan.

I also covered the issuse of blanketing, which is another great reason why Konan would win against Suigetsu, but I do admit it would be close against Jugo because of his defense and resiliency.

Yuuta · 11-26-2009, 10:14 PM

The thing with Jugo is, he's completely close range.
In the beginning stages of the fight, he would have little to no chance against Konan. He could slice a few pieces of paper, but the paper would easily overwhelm him - he cannot fend it off from all sides, and blanket him.
Then we have stage 2, where he blasts away the paper on his with the chakra cannon's radius, but the paper swarm is not concentrated around him, so the remaining paper - and the one's Konan is replenishing, simply blanket him again with more and more paper. The paper's weight is considerable.
In stage 2, Jugo only has a way to briefly repel Konan's paper, but no real way to beat her.

I know you don't want to debate any more...
EDIT: ...But I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this. Konan could beat him.

Yuuta · 11-27-2009, 03:52 PM

So... I think Konan needs to be moved up past Jugo. He has no real way to hurt her.

Nyruss · 11-27-2009, 04:31 PM

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You too, Dudemeister. Also, were you the person who downrepped me for my other post?

Entirely possible. Which other post are we talking about?

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It's impossible to be wrong on an opinion since opinions vary with each person and nothing defines them as true or false.

Indeed indeed. But it's not an opinion that Sasuke is inferior to Orochimaru in every way. It's a fact.

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you cannot down rep someone for their opinion,

I can, I have and I'd do it again, regardless of whether it would have any noticable effect on your rep score. It's the principle of the thing.

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you can't be wrong on an opinion. I hope dudemeister understands this eventually

Never have I said otherwise and I resent the accusation.

Although that's not actually true, it's just a lie people with wrong opinions came up with to try and raise themselves up to the same level as people with right opinions.

If I were of the opinion that the sun didn't exist and it were just a shared hallucination, would that be right?

If I were of the opinion that I am God(as in, the God of Abraham), and as such deserve your worship, would that be right?

If I were of the opinion that non-Americans were the scum of the earth and every other country in the world should be wiped out by a nuclear holocaust...would that be right?

If I were of the opinion that children are the devil and should be brutally tortured to death at the first opportunity...would that be right?

If I were of the opinion that Sasuke were awesome looking and deep. Would that be right?

If I were of the opinion that you had nothing interesting to say and anything you say that is not a direct praise of my greatness and/or sexiness is utterly worthless and meaningless and you should move to Canada(I considered making you commit suicide, but I deemed this much worse)...would that be right?

Obviously that one about Sasuke is the most horrific and irredeemable, and I don't actually believe that, it's just a hypothetical.

Berzakinski · 11-27-2009, 04:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Yuuta

So... I think Konan needs to be moved up past Jugo. He has no real way to hurt her.

What about the chakra cannons?

Yuuta · 11-27-2009, 04:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Berzakinski

What about the chakra cannons?

I already covered that one.
Konan's a swarm of paper all around Jugo. His cannons will get rid off a few pieces in front of him and around him, but he'll still be blanketed and overwhelmed.

deidara330 · 11-27-2009, 06:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Dudemeister

Entirely possible. Which other post are we talking about?

The one in which you said Orochimaru was superior to Sasuke in every way.

Indeed indeed. But it's not an opinion that Sasuke is inferior to Orochimaru in every way. It's a fact.

No, it isn't. Sasuke has more jutsu than Orochimaru, making him better than Orochimaru in terms of the number of jutsu that he has. You cannot prove this to be fact, as it is an opinion.

I can, I have and I'd do it again, regardless of whether it would have any noticable effect on your rep score. It's the principle of the thing.

Apparently I didn't have to go to the trouble of saying why I thought it was you since you admitted it. On what principle did you downrep me? I had an opinion that differed from yours, so why did you believe that that deserved any punishment of any form whatsoever?

Never have I said otherwise and I resent the accusation.

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Wrong on every point and especially wrong on depth and looking cool.

I believe that hypocrite is the correct term for this scenario.

Although that's not actually true, it's just a lie people with wrong opinions came up with to try and raise themselves up to the same level as people with right opinions.

If I didn't think it would get me infracted or start a flame war I would be insulting you right now. Look up the word "opinion" in the dictionary. It is impossible to have a right or wrong opinion, they teach you this in the 5th/6th grade.

If I were of the opinion that the sun didn't exist and it were just a shared hallucination, would that be right?

You would be wrong, because that isn't an opinion and is a fact. A fact can be proven or disproven using logic or evidence, and an opinion cannot be, under any circumstances, proven or disproven.

If I were of the opinion that I am God(as in, the God of Abraham), and as such deserve your worship, would that be right?

The fact that you would believed you were a god is a fact, albeit an incredibly wrong one. However, thinking that you deserve the worship of other people is entirely an opinion and it cannot be denied nor proven that you deserve any amount of worship from any amount of people.

If I were of the opinion that non-Americans were the scum of the earth and every other country in the world should be wiped out by a nuclear holocaust...would that be right?

What the heck do I care? It's an opinion.

If I were of the opinion that children are the devil and should be brutally tortured to death at the first opportunity...would that be right?

Your point is no longer relevant. An opinion is an opinion, you can believe whatever the hell you want. If you actually try to torture little kids, you'd be arrested and put in jail for a very long time. As long as you don't actually do anything, it's fine by me.

If I were of the opinion that Sasuke were awesome looking and deep. Would that be right?

Do you mind if I ask you for permission to downrep you? Not that I disagree with your opinion, but that trying to say for a fact that an opinion can be right or wrong is wrong.

If I were of the opinion that you had nothing interesting to say and anything you say that is not a direct praise of my greatness and/or sexiness is utterly worthless and meaningless and you should move to Canada(I considered making you commit suicide, but I deemed this much worse)...would that be right?

You've killed your own arguement. As long as you don't take the action to actually make me praise you, or force me to leave the country, then I would probably just not care. If I knew that you thought this of me, and I happened to pass you by on a sidewalk, I wouldn't give a second thought to keep on walking and simply ignore you. An opinion is an opinion, as long as you don't do anything about it I don't care what your opinion is.

Obviously that one about Sasuke is the most horrific and irredeemable, and I don't actually believe that, it's just a hypothetical.

The very definition of an opinion is a belief, something that cannot be proven right or wrong. They actually teach this in school to people at a very young age, yet you seem to not care how the entirety of society defines "opinon" and give it your own definition. The moral right and wrong doesn't apply to the actual method of proving something right or wrong. Of course, it's only your opinion that my opinion is wrong, terrible, horrific, whatever. The only reason I even care is because you downrepped me for it. And like I said, as long as you don't do anything it's fine, but if you punish me for my opinion, then I care.

Nyruss · 11-27-2009, 09:15 PM

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The one in which you said Orochimaru was superior to Sasuke in every way.

I can't very well neg you for a post I made, especially not when it's so obviously true.

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No, it isn't. Sasuke has more jutsu than Orochimaru, making him better than Orochimaru in terms of the number of jutsu that he has. You cannot prove this to be fact, as it is an opinion.

By my count, Sasuke knows 22 jutsus, and that's being generous.

Spoiler:

Not counting the anime only ones, Orochimaru's known jutsus is the same number, and I'm not even sure I haven't missed some. Add that to the fact that he should possess many many more and you've got the fact that you're wrong even excluding the unknown ones. :P

Spoiler:

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Apparently I didn't have to go to the trouble of saying why I thought it was you since you admitted it. On what principle did you downrep me? I had an opinion that differed from yours, so why did you believe that that deserved any punishment of any form whatsoever?

The principle in question is negrepping in spite of the lack of any noticable effect, not negrepping itself.

And simply having a different opinion is not(usually) a cause for me to neg someone. But having a wrong opinion that you stubbornly cling to against all logic on the other hand...

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I believe that hypocrite is the correct term for this scenario.

You are, not suprisingly, wrong. For several reasons.

Spoiler:

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If I didn't think it would get me infracted or start a flame war I would be insulting you right now.

Go ahead, insult me. I promise not to insult you back(at least, not in response to being insulted. I can't yet tell at the time of typing this whether the rest of your post will provoke an insult.)

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Look up the word "opinion" in the dictionary

Opinion: A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.

Used in a sentence: It is your opinion that opinions can't be wrong.

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It is impossible to have a right or wrong opinion, they teach you this in the 5th/6th grade.

They also teach you that the sky is blue and that Republicans aren't the spawn of Satan. (and only one of those are true, if you really must know, I shall include the answer at the bottom of my post.)

Don't believe everything you hear in school.

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You would be wrong, because that isn't an opinion and is a fact. A fact can be proven or disproven using logic or evidence, and an opinion cannot be, under any circumstances, proven or disproven.

So you can prove, using logic and evidence, that we are not, in fact, partaking in a shared delusion that the sun exists? I will remind you of the possibility that such proof as exists may, in fact, be part of the delusion.

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The fact that you would believed you were a god is a fact, albeit an incredibly wrong one.

Facts can't be wrong. That's why they are facts. It would be a fact that I believed myself to be God, but the fact that I believed can't be wrong. The belief(I.E. the OPINION) that I am God, however, would be wrong.

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However, thinking that you deserve the worship of other people is entirely an opinion and it cannot be denied nor proven that you deserve any amount of worship from any amount of people.

Surely the very fact of my godhood would warrant my deserval(is that even a word? Who cares, I'm God. It's a word if I say it is.) for worship.

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What the heck do I care? It's an opinion.

So then you believe that the opinion that non-Americans deserve to be wiped out a la Hitler is a reasonable and unimpeachable stance?

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Do you mind if I ask you for permission to downrep you?

You know you're the first person to ever ask for my permission to neg me? That's awesome.

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Not that I disagree with your opinion, but that trying to say for a fact that an opinion can be right or wrong is wrong.

That is your opinion, and it is wrong. I believe this constitutes irony.

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You've killed your own arguement. As long as you don't take the action to actually make me praise you, or force me to leave the country, then I would probably just not care. If I knew that you thought this of me, and I happened to pass you by on a sidewalk, I wouldn't give a second thought to keep on walking and simply ignore you. An opinion is an opinion, as long as you don't do anything about it I don't care what your opinion is.

So then if I were to say to you: It is my opinion that I should be allowed to say "If you don't praise me I will kill your entire family and make you watch." and then do so, pending your refusal, would my unapproachably correct position on the matter be any less wrong? It is, after all, my opinion that I should be allowed to do this, and opinions can not, according to you, be wrong.

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The very definition of an opinion is a belief, something that cannot be proven right or wrong.

Beliefs can be wrong.

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They actually teach this in school to people at a very young age, yet you seem to not care how the entirety of society defines "opinon" and give it your own definition.

We've been over this thing about school, I'm sure. I very much do care how society defines opinion, and I am fully aware of the fact that many people(usually people who are blatantly wrong, or failing that, people who are just being polite) follow the same beliefs that you do. But I'd bet money that many more would agree with me.

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The moral right and wrong doesn't apply to the actual method of proving something right or wrong.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

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Of course, it's only your opinion that my opinion is wrong, terrible, horrific, whatever.

Indeed, and it is a right opinion. It is also a fact. This is not a coincidence.

Spoiler:

crystaluchiha · 11-27-2009, 09:26 PM

Good lord you are all fighting over this when Sasori is dead and btw who in the world is Pain and why is he up so many times?

Nyruss · 11-27-2009, 09:28 PM

Sasori has nothing to do with our argument. We're arguing about Sasuke. Well, mostly we're arguing about opinions, but Sasuke is the reason for our arguing. :P

Pain is a Narutoverse villain.

Educate thyself.

deidara330 · 11-28-2009, 06:18 PM

*Sigh* Since you've said I can insult you, you're annoying and not worth my time. Respond to this post any way you like, but don't think I'll care.

I also decided to ignore your debate when you said Sasori's sand wasn't supersonic and couldn't kill Deidara, even though I proved it using feats from the manga.

deidara330 · 11-28-2009, 06:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Dudemeister

I can't very well neg you for a post I made, especially not when it's so obviously true.

By my count, Sasuke knows 22 jutsus, and that's being generous.

Spoiler:

Not counting the anime only ones, Orochimaru's known jutsus is the same number, and I'm not even sure I haven't missed some. Add that to the fact that he should possess many many more and you've got the fact that you're wrong even excluding the unknown ones. :P

Spoiler:

The principle in question is negrepping in spite of the lack of any noticable effect, not negrepping itself.

And simply having a different opinion is not(usually) a cause for me to neg someone. But having a wrong opinion that you stubbornly cling to against all logic on the other hand...

By your logic, the entire Sasuke fanbase, or at least most of it, is actually wrong in not liking Orochimaru more.

You are, not suprisingly, wrong. For several reasons.

You think that Orochimaru is better than Sasuke, and I think that Sasuke is cooler in every way than Orochimaru. Prove me wrong.

Spoiler:

Go ahead, insult me. I promise not to insult you back(at least, not in response to being insulted. I can't yet tell at the time of typing this whether the rest of your post will provoke an insult.)

Whatever, it's not like I care.

Opinion: A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.

Used in a sentence: It is your opinion that opinions can't be wrong.

It's not an opinion, because I've founded it on proof. Lets say that hypothetically, opinions could be wrong. There would be no need for the very word opinion, since there would be no "fact" or "opinion". Only right or wrong. They made the word opinion because there are certain things that can never be proved or disproved.

They also teach you that the sky is blue and that Republicans aren't the spawn of Satan. (and only one of those are true, if you really must know, I shall include the answer at the bottom of my post.)

I figured that out using common sense. But of course, it's not like they teach you to like republicans either, so your point is invalid.

Don't believe everything you hear in school.

I don't, but if it's defined as a belief and many beliefs can't be proven, I have to go by that definition.

So you can prove, using logic and evidence, that we are not, in fact, partaking in a shared delusion that the sun exists? I will remind you of the possibility that such proof as exists may, in fact, be part of the delusion.

Not really. With today's technology, I don't imagine it's hard to get infomration from the region that the sun was around to prove it's existance. Also, for this to be wrong there could be no light on Earth, and since we can't see through the dark as far as we can through light, the entire world would have to be an illusion.

Facts can't be wrong.

Yes they can. Facts can be right or wrong, opinions can't. This is common sense.

That's why they are facts. It would be a fact that I believed myself to be God, but the fact that I believed can't be wrong. The belief(I.E. the OPINION) that I am God, however, would be wrong.

The fact that you believed can't be wrong, but the belief itself would not. And if you look up belief, you don't see the word opinion there. The first definition I saw was faith and trust. You can't prove or disprove faith and trust.

Surely the very fact of my godhood would warrant my deserval(is that even a word? Who cares, I'm God. It's a word if I say it is.) for worship.

While it is a fact, it can be easily disproven. And the fact that you would be a god does not mean you deserve worship, because I would never give any thing, person, etc my worship for the sole reason that they were a god.

So then you believe that the opinion that non-Americans deserve to be wiped out a la Hitler is a reasonable and unimpeachable stance?

As long as you don't grow a mustache, comand a Nazi army to try and rule the word, and say "call me adolf", I don't really care what your opinion is.

You know you're the first person to ever ask for my permission to neg me? That's awesome.

So can I?

That is your opinion, and it is wrong. I believe this constitutes irony.

What's ironic is that you have the completely opposite sentence. What you should've said was "That is a fact, and it is right". It isn't a belief that saying an opinion can be wrong is wrong, it's the truth.

So then if I were to say to you: It is my opinion that I should be allowed to say "If you don't praise me I will kill your entire family and make you watch." and then do so, pending your refusal, would my unapproachably correct position on the matter be any less wrong? It is, after all, my opinion that I should be allowed to do this, and opinions can not, according to you, be wrong.

Your reasoning is flawed. It is your opinion that you should be allowed to say and do these things, but as long as you don't actually do them, what the heck do I care? If you told me that, I know you never actually said you would do it and that is was only your opinion, but I'd probably try to stay away from you as much as possible.

Beliefs can be wrong.

A belief can only be right or wrong if it is a fact, if a belief is an opinion it can be neither. The word belief is not actually the word fact or opinion, so it can be classified as either. I think I'm wording this in the wrong way. A belief itself is an opinion UNTIL it is proven or disproven, and afterwards becomes fact. An opinion is a belief that can never be proven or disproven under any cicumstances.

We've been over this thing about school, I'm sure. I very much do care how society defines opinion, and I am fully aware of the fact that many people(usually people who are blatantly wrong, or failing that, people who are just being polite) follow the same beliefs that you do. But I'd bet money that many more would agree with me.

And I'd bet that you'd lose that money. Most people who aren't mentally ill would not agree with you saying an opinion can actually be wrong, unless they were stupid or arrogant and believed that their opinion must be right and everyone elses must be wrong simply because of who they are. This is meant in no way to call you stupid, arrogant, or mentaly ill.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

Indeed, and it is a right opinion. It is also a fact. This is not a coincidence.

It is not a fact. It also is not a right opinon, because opinions can't be right or wrong. By saying that an opinion proven right is a fact, your saying that a belief proven right or wrong is a fact and those that cannot are opinions.

Spoiler:

The only reason I'm responding to your post is out of boredom.

Nyruss · 11-28-2009, 09:22 PM

I've taken the liberty of moving a particularly juicy quote to the top of the list so as to save you the trouble of reading the rest, being that, once the response is presented, there will be no need to continue to read the rest of my post/responses(unless you just really want to), and further, no need to continue the argument. I've also placed it in bold for shits and giggles and spoiler tagged the rest of the post.

Quote:

As long as you don't grow a mustache, comand a Nazi army to try and rule the word, and say "call me adolf", I don't really care what your opinion is.

So what you're saying is, you don't believe what you say, and only preach it up to the point where I take a proactive stance in the matter.

Since you've got no argument left, I proclaim my victory, revel in my rightness and suggest we get back to the original topic that you so rudely derailed.

Spoiler:

P.S. Lol, I got negged for talking about morals instead of debating. That's just rude. Have these people no sense of context? Clearly the debate about opinions(which has nothing to do with morality *facepalm*) is merely a tangent on the debate of Sasuke's axiomatic inferiority to Orochimaru. I tell you, if there were any justice in the world you'd all be thrown in a meat grinder. Except for Deidara330. Irksome as he is, he has a certain amusing appeal.

P.P.S. How the hell does this thread have an excellent rating? Lol.

deidara330 · 11-29-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudemeister

I've taken the liberty of moving a particularly juicy quote to the top of the list so as to save you the trouble of reading the rest, being that, once the response is presented, there will be no need to continue to read the rest of my post/responses(unless you just really want to), and further, no need to continue the argument. I've also placed it in bold for shits and giggles and spoiler tagged the rest of the post.

So what you're saying is, you don't believe what you say,

What are you talking about? I'm saying I don't care what your opinion is and I believe what I say.

and only preach it up to the point where I take a proactive stance in the matter.

What are you talking about? Yes, what I'm saying is I don't give a crap what your opinion is, but if you actually tried to take over the world then I would care.

Since you've got no argument left, I proclaim my victory, revel in my rightness and suggest we get back to the original topic that you so rudely derailed.

Your logic was completely flawed, and half of it was that the other person won simply because they were better. That isn't any reasoning, because saying that one person is better is an opinion.

Spoiler:

P.S. Lol, I got negged for talking about morals instead of debating. That's just rude. Have these people no sense of context? Clearly the debate about opinions(which has nothing to do with morality *facepalm*) is merely a tangent on the debate of Sasuke's axiomatic inferiority to Orochimaru. I tell you, if there were any justice in the world you'd all be thrown in a meat grinder. Except for Deidara330. Irksome as he is, he has a certain amusing appeal.

I was also downrepped. And isn't a meat grinder a bit violent? And what's this about irksome and amusing?

P.P.S. How the hell does this thread have an excellent rating? Lol.

Because my tier list is good.

We're really just going back and forth, me saying opinions can't be right or wrong, you saying they can. I think we should simply ignore every single point up until now and simply stick to these two points:
A fact can be wrong.
An opinion can be neither right or wrong.

If I convince you of both these things, you'll agree with me and I'll have won the arguement. The rest of what's going on right now isn't getting much done.

Nyruss · 11-29-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

A fact can't be wrong.
An opinion can be either right or wrong.

I completely agree.

--------------------

So then we're all agreed that this:

Quote:

Pain (Deva Path)
Itachi Uchiha
Kisame Hoshigaki
Orochimaru
Deidara
Sasori
Animal Realm
Sasuke Uchiha

Is accurate. Good.

deidara330 · 11-29-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudemeister

I completely agree.

A fact can be wrong, since I've never read anywhere that a fact must be right. Also, an opinion can't be right or wrong.

--------------------

So then we're all agreed that this:

Is accurate. Good.

No, your list is terrible. I'll start with what makes you think that Deidara or Orochimaru can possibly defeat Sasori?

11-26-2009, 10:49 AM	#301
Yuuta Chunin Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: X Posts: 1,091 Rep Power: 0	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. Not really. To me, an attack from Konan is a Paper Shuriken or Paper Spear or whatever. She didn't attack as just a swarm of paper. When she found him, or rather the genin, she covered him up in paper and reformed her head to make a paper spear. Just covering them up doesn't require consious thought. Well, she obviously can't see or hear when splitting up since papers don't have eyes or ears. I'm guessing that she remotely controls all of them from one peice of paper and uses chakra detection. The chakra detection theory has many holes, as Konan even blanketed Ryuski's scarf separately from his body. Also, she knew which exact slip was covering the mouth. And makes sure to either add or remove it. She controls all of them with exact precision. Whenever chakra sense has been shown it's been as a general sense / feeling, not precision. If she relied on chakra sense alone, Ryuski's scarf would've been pressed against him, as she would only know the general direction of his chakra and keep supplying paper in that direction - but instead, his scarf is immobilized perfectly in the air and independently, though it lacks chakra. EDIT: If you don't believe me, it's Chapter 371, Page 15. I see this debate as going into who would outlast who, which was basically what the entire Jugo VS Konan debate was. I repeat, there are similarities in the ways that they would have to fight Konan to be semi effective. Konan's feats have shown that she has a great amount of chakra and can keep going. And the similarities are reasons why I'm arguing both. Suigetsu is pretty fast, the paper butterflies and airplanes aren't actually that fast. He could probably cut up some before she could dodge, and replinishing paper still takes chakra. He would have to be using chakra to move chakra into his arms to keep swinging his sword that's being blanketed in paper. His speed would inevitably decrease, along with his chakra. You never really countered that point. And also, it's not her butterflies or paper planes that she would be using in combat, she only used those for reconnassaince and guiding. Her swarm of paper is what she'd be using, and honestly it's pretty fast if it can catch Jiraya off guard and several jonin. Also, it's Konan's paper replenishing speed that we started this on, and it's obviously rapid as we covered before. Hydration jutsu still allows him to avoid any of Konan's attacks. So you've admitted it's a jutsu, then. When he's hit, he'll turn to water and lose chakra. Chakra isn't indefinite. Also, as I've said before, he's be using more chakra to keep on trying to swing his sword. If he abadons the effort, he has absolutely no way to hurt Konan. Also, I don't see a way for him to escape blanketing. Everytime he's hydrolized, it's been a part of his body. If a swarm of paper was coming at him from all sides, he would be covered. You could say that he could just turn to water and escape. He hasn't shown the ability to turn to water spontaneously, but when he's attacked. Since you say you do not see suffocation as a form of attack, he would not hydrolize. Additionally, every time he's hydrolized, a portion of his body has remained intact, be it the top of his head or otherwise. He has never managed a complete water transformation, at least in the manga. Because of this, his mouth / a portion of his body could still be blanketed and covered. You could argue that he has become completely water, but everytime he has it has not been on his own will, and has been recuperation. He was kept contained on both incidents, and there was additional water with air circulating that he could use to breathe - like a fish. If it was only him, blanketed in a cucoon of paper, he could try to turn into water, but it would only be him, with a limited supply of air, and he would eventually pass out. Also, his watery form is affectable, Jugo was still able to pick him up, so he can most likely be killed this way. She never said why, she just said it'd be the last time she used her paper clone. She did say why, she was dispelling her paper clone because she was going to see Nagato in person. Well, she did have prep on her side, and I don't see maintaining them as a great feat since I don't think it would take much to keep it up once it's seperate from her body. Yes, but she had time inbetween some of those things to rest and replinish her chakra. She didn't do them all at once. Here I must disagree. She split into butterflies, searched the whole city, reported back to Pain, attacked Jiraya, fought off Jiraya, and remained in paper mode for the rest of the battle. She did this all at once. You've admitted that her jutsu doesn't take much to keep up. Exactly. She kept up the gigantic tree, a paper clone, caught several ninja, attacked the Aburame, and reported back to Pain again. Konan has great jutsu control. While the upper portion of her body had been reformed. They were formed, but the attack was from her wings. Since when did she or could she do this? When she was looking for Jiraya, she split into butterflies and simutaneously covered the entire village. Examples are Chapter 370 page 2, Chapter 371 pages 8 and 9. It's not like she can make paper forever, either. And neither does Suigetsu's. True, but as I've already pointed out, she can do it for a ridiculously long time. Her feats so that she obviously has a lot of chakra. I feel like we're going around in circles here. Unrefuted... So can Konan. You've admitted that the effects cancel each other out. Soap would be a disadvantage to her, because it would make her paper stick. For water to cancel this effect, it must do the opposite. Helpful. Even so, her jutsu is not hampered by water to the same extend as oil. Yes. Even in the manga. Chapter 373, Page 11. It would seem that her chakra infused paper is water resistant. And it wasn't me who down repped you, that's ridiculous, this is a debate! People are bound to have different views, you can't down rep people for them. __________________ ___ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. /o-o\| "Bite me, quick!" ~ Karin /_!_\ You know you like her too. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. `@__ (^_\_) "Flowers of Hope that Never Die" /_ ! _\ I LOVE Konan, The Lady Angel Konan might be the most underrated character in Naruto. ____ /o_0\ AAIIIEEE!!! /_!!_\ I LOVE Shizune Violence isn't always the answer. Apprentice - bowserkage Last edited by Yuuta; 11-26-2009 at 06:43 PM.

11-26-2009, 10:14 PM	#306
Yuuta Chunin Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: X Posts: 1,091 Rep Power: 0	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. The thing with Jugo is, he's completely close range. In the beginning stages of the fight, he would have little to no chance against Konan. He could slice a few pieces of paper, but the paper would easily overwhelm him - he cannot fend it off from all sides, and blanket him. Then we have stage 2, where he blasts away the paper on his with the chakra cannon's radius, but the paper swarm is not concentrated around him, so the remaining paper - and the one's Konan is replenishing, simply blanket him again with more and more paper. The paper's weight is considerable. In stage 2, Jugo only has a way to briefly repel Konan's paper, but no real way to beat her. I know you don't want to debate any more... EDIT: ...But I'd really like to hear what you have to say about this. Konan could beat him. __________________ ___ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. /o-o\| "Bite me, quick!" ~ Karin /_!_\ You know you like her too. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. `@__ (^_\_) "Flowers of Hope that Never Die" /_ ! _\ I LOVE Konan, The Lady Angel Konan might be the most underrated character in Naruto. ____ /o_0\ AAIIIEEE!!! /_!!_\ I LOVE Shizune Violence isn't always the answer. Apprentice - bowserkage Last edited by Yuuta; 11-26-2009 at 10:32 PM.

11-27-2009, 03:52 PM	#307
Yuuta Chunin Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: X Posts: 1,091 Rep Power: 0	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. So... I think Konan needs to be moved up past Jugo. He has no real way to hurt her. __________________ ___ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. /o-o\| "Bite me, quick!" ~ Karin /_!_\ You know you like her too. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. `@__ (^_\_) "Flowers of Hope that Never Die" /_ ! _\ I LOVE Konan, The Lady Angel Konan might be the most underrated character in Naruto. ____ /o_0\ AAIIIEEE!!! /_!!_\ I LOVE Shizune Violence isn't always the answer. Apprentice - bowserkage

11-27-2009, 09:26 PM	#313
crystaluchiha Academy Graduate Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Akatsuki hide out Posts: 71 Rep Power: 0	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. Good lord you are all fighting over this when Sasori is dead and btw who in the world is Pain and why is he up so many times?

11-27-2009, 09:28 PM	#314
Nyruss Special Jonin Candidate Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8,050 Rep Power: 0	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. Sasori has nothing to do with our argument. We're arguing about Sasuke. Well, mostly we're arguing about opinions, but Sasuke is the reason for our arguing. :P Pain is a Narutoverse villain. Educate thyself. Last edited by Err; 09-12-2010 at 07:31 PM. Reason: Removed illegal images/links.

11-28-2009, 06:18 PM	#315
deidara330 Mr. Serious Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Everywhere and Nowhere. Posts: 14,489 Rep Power: 14	Re: Akatsuki Tier List. Sigh Since you've said I can insult you, you're annoying and not worth my time. Respond to this post any way you like, but don't think I'll care. I also decided to ignore your debate when you said Sasori's sand wasn't supersonic and couldn't kill Deidara, even though I proved it using feats from the manga.

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