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Old 11-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #221
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Woah Woah Woah, slow down a sec. A few days ago everyone was fine with him being mid-tier, now he's above SASORI? WTH? I don't understand how he makes it above Deidara, or even at Deidara's level.

Deidara is a bad match up for him while he can possibly beat Sasori due to his giant water bubble and his suiton is possibly supersonic since it caught KB, in the water Sasori would get beat by him and like I said he could possibly beat Itachi depending on a few mechanincs of Samehada, although Kisame now really needs a raise.
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:56 PM   #222
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Deidara is a bad match up for him while he can possibly beat Sasori due to his giant water bubble and his suiton is possibly supersonic since it caught KB, in the water Sasori would get beat by him and like I said he could possibly beat Itachi depending on a few mechanincs of Samehada, although Kisame now really needs a raise.
It'd be tricky to put him above Sasori if Deidara beats him. Honestly, I don't think that Kisame could defeat Sasori. Sasori's Iron Sand would be faster than the Water Jutsu Kisame used, and besides that, 100 puppets would still beat him. Depending on how far apart they start off, Sasori could dodge the water jutsu and spam Iron Sand attacks. Samehada can't absorb Iron Sand, or poison. In fact, there isn't much it could absorb at all from Sasori. I don't think he goes above Sasori, or Itachi. Itachi because of Tsukuyomi. It only lasts one second in real-time, so the sword couldn't react or dispel it in time. Kisame becomes fatigued, and Itachi moves in for the kill.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:02 PM   #223
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It'd be tricky to put him above Sasori if Deidara beats him. Honestly, I don't think that Kisame could defeat Sasori. Sasori's Iron Sand would be faster than the Water Jutsu Kisame used, and besides that, 100 puppets would still beat him. Depending on how far apart they start off, Sasori could dodge the water jutsu and spam Iron Sand attacks. Samehada can't absorb Iron Sand, or poison. In fact, there isn't much it could absorb at all from Sasori. I don't think he goes above Sasori, or Itachi. Itachi because of Tsukuyomi. It only lasts one second in real-time, so the sword couldn't react or dispel it in time. Kisame becomes fatigued, and Itachi moves in for the kill.

Faster? Kisame's Suiton had an actual feat, Rari Atto Killer Bee couldn't outrun or react to it, so it's pretty fast and actually summoning Kakekage and making Satetsu takes some time and the water could wash off the poison and Tailed Beats are poisonous yet Kisame's Samehada healed him for that too. How can he dodge a huge Water Bubble that was larger then the level Birds where flying at and extremely wide. Plus, in the water Sasori could possibly get crushed along with the puppets, his technique destroyed countless thick trees and his puppets are made of wood. For Tsukuyomi, he obviously won't look into his eyes, he knows that move and how to counter that specific one already.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:22 PM   #224
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Oh yeah for the list, Kisame and Itachi should be moved up now, Itachi can take care of Orochimaru quite easily while Kisame can take care of Sasori and have Itachi help him.

Pain and Konan should be moved up one space as well, the only thing that is actually threatening is C4 and if Konan turns into papar it shouldn't affect her and Pain could Shinra Tensei it away, Dead bodies and paper shouldn't be affected by poison, and a lot of the Pain Bodies can fly/levitate as well as Konan. Plus, in the time it takes to prep C4 or another move Pain can use CST or CT, either way they get crushed by a few billion tons or they get squished by a huge shockwave.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:46 PM   #225
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Pain and Konan should go above Team Hawk, Karin can easily be taken care of and Konan can hold off Suigetsu long enough until Pain can take care of him, Pain can beat Jugo using Shinra Tensei or Bansho Tenin with a chakra blade, especially since Jugo doesn't usually start in CS2. Sasuke is the only big threat there but Pain can absorb his attacks, tank them, heal from them and crush him.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:17 PM   #226
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Any more suggestions? I may move Kisame above Deidara due to recent feats.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:56 PM   #227
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I believe Kisame > Sasori to be honest.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:57 PM   #228
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I believe Kisame > Sasori to be honest.
How does he get above Deidara? If he can't beat Deidara, I can't move him above Sasori.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:02 PM   #229
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Once Kisame is fused with Samehada and captured Deidara in the bubble, Deidara is screwed. Deidara isn't fast enough to move to dodge the bubble and once caught, he won't be able to outrun Kisame. While in the bubble, Deidara's movements would be so slow he wouldn't have time to counter anything.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:10 PM   #230
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Well Kisame's bubble was above the range birds where flying at, so Deidara wouldn't be out of his reach and he can trap him before he goes to far away or move the bubble with him toward his direction. Plus, like V-V said in another thread, water would cause clay to collapse on itself and Samehada could absorb other attacks.

I also think he can beat Sasori, and possibly Itachi, he can sense chakra, so he doesn't need to open his eyes and Samehada could possibly get him out of it, Susano'o would be hard to use in the bubble along with Amaterasu, and Susano'o is made of chakra so it'll be hard to use without getting it absorbed by his skin, Amaterasu could probably get absorbed or dodged with Kisame's speed in the water. Once in the bubble I think Kisame can beat Itachi and it shouldn't be too hard to get him in.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:18 PM   #231
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Well Kisame's bubble was above the range birds where flying at, so Deidara wouldn't be out of his reach and he can trap him before he goes to far away or move the bubble with him toward his direction. Plus, like V-V said in another thread, water would cause clay to collapse on itself and Samehada could absorb other attacks.

I also think he can beat Sasori, and possibly Itachi, he can sense chakra, so he doesn't need to open his eyes and Samehada could possibly get him out of it, Susano'o would be hard to use in the bubble along with Amaterasu, and Susano'o is made of chakra so it'll be hard to use without getting it absorbed by his skin, Amaterasu could probably get absorbed or dodged with Kisame's speed in the water. Once in the bubble I think Kisame can beat Itachi and it shouldn't be too hard to get him in.
I agree with the Deidara part, but I am not sure if Samehada can cure poison even though it can heal damage, doesn't mean it can cure poison, and Kisame can't absorb Iron Sand. As for Itachi, even though he can close his eyes and just sense Itachi that is putting himself at a major disadvantage, when attacking and casting jutsu. I can't see Samehada being able to absorb a full on Susano'o attack either, but Idk, these are some fights that can go either way.

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Old 11-21-2009, 09:27 PM   #232
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I agree with the Deidara part, but I am not sure if Samehada can cure poison even though it can heal damage, doesn't mean it can cure poison, and Kisame can't absorb Iron Sand. As for Itachi, even though he can close his eyes and just sense Itachi that is putting himself at a major disadvantage, when attacking and casting jutsu. I can't see Samehada being able to absorb a full on Susano'o attack either, but Idk, these are some fights that can go either way.

Well his bubble attack crushed thick tress and Sasori's puppets are possibly made out of wood, so if he was them out they could get crushed, and the chakra string to control puppets probably can't function correctly while in water and the poison might get washed away.

Even with closed eyes he fought pretty good against KB and Samehada could dispell him if it's intelligent enough. Kisame can absorb 6 tails worth of chakra which is a massive amount, if Susano'o had that much I'm pretty sure Itachi would need that much to perform Susano'o, so I see him getting absorbed. Plus, Itachi would have a breating time limit withint the bubble, I'd doubt he'd last for long without breathing.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:45 PM   #233
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Well his bubble attack crushed thick tress and Sasori's puppets are possibly made out of wood, so if he was them out they could get crushed, and the chakra string to control puppets probably can't function correctly while in water and the poison might get washed away.

Even with closed eyes he fought pretty good against KB and Samehada could dispell him if it's intelligent enough. Kisame can absorb 6 tails worth of chakra which is a massive amount, if Susano'o had that much I'm pretty sure Itachi would need that much to perform Susano'o, so I see him getting absorbed. Plus, Itachi would have a breating time limit withint the bubble, I'd doubt he'd last for long without breathing.
Yes, I see your points on both, but I still think these fights can go either way. I can see Kisame beating Sasori, but I don't know if he could beat Itachi. Sasori would be the harder to get in the bubble, just based on him being a ranged fighter, and even being able to use some Iron Sand to take the air. (Assumption of course.) I believe if Sasori has to use his trueform and 300 puppets and they are in the bubble then this fight is over. It most likely just comes down to Iron Sand, which I am not sure if the water would get rid of that poison, but the puppets poison yes it should.

Itachi getting beat is a harder debate. Kisame would have to fight the entire fight with his eyes closed. Amaterasu is another option, I did read where u said his speed would be able to dodge it, but remember Kisame is fighting with this eyes closed. Another option to get out of the bubble is to just make a couple of clones and have them head in different directions. If Kisame follows a clone then Itachi is out of the bubble. As for absorbing Susano'o, I still can't see Samehada being able to fully absorb a swing. I know it has able to absorb KBs chakra, but that was over an entire fight. This would be a single attack. Itachi could also just use Susano'o to attack and then cast Amaterasu if Kisame trys to absorb it with his eyes closed. I also don't think Susano'o is based on Itachi's chakra just based on him using it while he was already pretty much of chakra fighting Sasuke.

Sorry for the wall of text, but there is so many different ways these fights can go.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:54 PM   #234
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Sorry for the double post, but won't Itachi's Susano'o also seal Samehada/Kisame after hitting it, or something like that. I might be mistaken about that.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:59 PM   #235
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Yes, I see your points on both, but I still think these fights can go either way. I can see Kisame beating Sasori, but I don't know if he could beat Itachi. Sasori would be the harder to get in the bubble, just based on him being a ranged fighter, and even being able to use some Iron Sand to take the air. (Assumption of course.) I believe if Sasori has to use his trueform and 300 puppets and they are in the bubble then this fight is over. It most likely just comes down to Iron Sand, which I am not sure if the water would get rid of that poison, but the puppets poison yes it should.

Itachi getting beat is a harder debate. Kisame would have to fight the entire fight with his eyes closed. Amaterasu is another option, I did read where u said his speed would be able to dodge it, but remember Kisame is fighting with this eyes closed. Another option to get out of the bubble is to just make a couple of clones and have them head in different directions. If Kisame follows a clone then Itachi is out of the bubble. As for absorbing Susano'o, I still can't see Samehada being able to fully absorb a swing. I know it has able to absorb KBs chakra, but that was over an entire fight. This would be a single attack. Itachi could also just use Susano'o to attack and then cast Amaterasu if Kisame trys to absorb it with his eyes closed. I also don't think Susano'o is based on Itachi's chakra just based on him using it while he was already pretty much of chakra fighting Sasuke.

Sorry for the wall of text, but there is so many different ways these fights can go.

The bubble streched so far KB couldn't even see an end to it, humans can see pretty far away, KB most likely has way better eyesight then humans, so Sasori would still most likely get trapped even if long range, Tailed KB couldn't outrun the water either and it migth crush Sasori and his puppets seeing as it crushed thick trees. Iron Sand iirc was only coated with poison so I don't see why it shouldn't wash away. Also, about using Iron Sand in the air, the prep time it takes to make a large amount of Iron Sand is more then enough for Kisame ot make his bubble and trap Sasori.

There is always the other 2 options of Kisame dispelling genjutsu since it's an intelligent being or Kisame making clones which would leave him with his eyes still open. How would Itachi get out of the bubble when KB couldn't even begin to see an end, Kisame managed to be faster then a Tailed KB, and Kisame could make his own clones which he could make thousands of in the water. Itachi trapped would die soon from lack of oxygen. Samehada at once can absorb 6 tails worth of chakra. Neji remarks KN0 level of chakra are ungodly for ninja, we're talking about 6 tails and that wasn't even 1, Susano'o probably doesn't have that much chakra seeing as Itachi doesn't. With Kisame's chakra sensing abilities he could sense Itachi moving chakra to his eyes and know he's about to perform Amaterasu and get out of his eyesight or swim quickly in ifferent patterns, Kisame's skin might also absorb it.

Yeah, they're hard to decide but I think Shark Kisame has them most of the time.
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Old 11-21-2009, 10:03 PM   #236
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Sorry for the double post, but won't Itachi's Susano'o also seal Samehada/Kisame after hitting it, or something like that. I might be mistaken about that.

I think Kisame's skin might absorb it since it must have chakra like the other swords for any special abilities and it might be made out of chakra, or in the bubble, I don't see why he couldn't dodge with his superior speed while in water.
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Old 11-21-2009, 10:33 PM   #237
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The bubble streched so far KB couldn't even see an end to it, humans can see pretty far away, KB most likely has way better eyesight then humans, so Sasori would still most likely get trapped even if long range, Tailed KB couldn't outrun the water either and it migth crush Sasori and his puppets seeing as it crushed thick trees. Iron Sand iirc was only coated with poison so I don't see why it shouldn't wash away. Also, about using Iron Sand in the air, the prep time it takes to make a large amount of Iron Sand is more then enough for Kisame ot make his bubble and trap Sasori.

There is always the other 2 options of Kisame dispelling genjutsu since it's an intelligent being or Kisame making clones which would leave him with his eyes still open. How would Itachi get out of the bubble when KB couldn't even begin to see an end, Kisame managed to be faster then a Tailed KB, and Kisame could make his own clones which he could make thousands of in the water. Itachi trapped would die soon from lack of oxygen. Samehada at once can absorb 5 tails worth of chakra. Neki remarks KN0 level of chakra are ungodly for ninja, we're talking about 6 tails and that wasn't even 1, Susano'o probably doesn't have that much chakra seeing as Itachi doesn't. With Kisame's chakra sensing abilities he could sense Itachi moving chakra to his eyes and know he's about to perform Amaterasu and get out of his eyesight or swim quickly in ifferent patterns, Kisame's skin might also absorb it.

Yeah, they're hard to decide but I think Shark Kisame has them most of the time.
Yep, like I said I believe Kisame has the advantage against Sasori if he gets him into the water, but I thought the Iron Sand and poison were combined, not just coated, but that was probally just my assumption when I saw Sasori use his Iron Sand. Prep Time didn't seem that long for Iron Sand either, unless we are talking about forming it. From what I saw it seemed just like Gaara's Sand but instead of the gourd, it came from his Kazekage puppet.

I don't know, I think if Itachi gets Kisame into his gen the fight is over. I don't see Kisame being able to get out of Tsukuyomi by just being Intelligent. Itachi has also shown the ability to capture more then one person in his gen, so I don't see clones helping, and to be honest water clones are pretty weak. As for Itachi being able to escape, it would be the same as for Sabuchan and Ponta, but with clones. The bubble follows Kisame, so he would have to pick a clone. We haven't seen Kisame make thousands of Shark clones, so I don't about that. I also think your kinda overrating the length for the bubble, based on Kisame's bubble that keeps following him as the center piece and that fact that Kisame is fast and could keep up with KB so the bubble never got any shorter. I checked the Manga page 10, and the bubble didn't look that long. If you could tell me the page that shows Kisame's ability to sense chakra this good with his eye's close, because I don't think he could be that good and sense an Amatersu coming. I really don't want to get into the speed facter, because it usually just leads to a big debate about feats and databooks, and such, but Itachi himself has shown good speed feats and databooks have him at 5, I believe, I know they are 100% accurate, but just some stuff. I still don't think Susano'o is based on Itachi's chakra like I stated based on the feat, when he used it in the Sasuke fight and was already out of chakra. As for the Susano'o being absorbed and that taking away its sealing ability, I just don't know that is a hard thing for me to accept.

Another wall of text, I even had to stop, or it would have been longer. Overall, Based on these three fighters, Sasori > Itachi 75% of the time. Itachi > Kisame 65% of the time, and Kisame > Sasori 75% of the time. These are my opinions at least.

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Old 11-22-2009, 08:59 AM   #238
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Default Re: Akatsuki Tier List.

I don't mean to interrupt your fierce debate, but I just wanted to let you know I moved Kisame above Animal Path on the list.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:04 AM   #239
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Default Re: Akatsuki Tier List.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icy-j View Post
Yep, like I said I believe Kisame has the advantage against Sasori if he gets him into the water, but I thought the Iron Sand and poison were combined, not just coated, but that was probally just my assumption when I saw Sasori use his Iron Sand. Prep Time didn't seem that long for Iron Sand either, unless we are talking about forming it. From what I saw it seemed just like Gaara's Sand but instead of the gourd, it came from his Kazekage puppet.

I don't know, I think if Itachi gets Kisame into his gen the fight is over. I don't see Kisame being able to get out of Tsukuyomi by just being Intelligent. Itachi has also shown the ability to capture more then one person in his gen, so I don't see clones helping, and to be honest water clones are pretty weak. As for Itachi being able to escape, it would be the same as for Sabuchan and Ponta, but with clones. The bubble follows Kisame, so he would have to pick a clone. We haven't seen Kisame make thousands of Shark clones, so I don't about that. I also think your kinda overrating the length for the bubble, based on Kisame's bubble that keeps following him as the center piece and that fact that Kisame is fast and could keep up with KB so the bubble never got any shorter. I checked the Manga page 10, and the bubble didn't look that long. If you could tell me the page that shows Kisame's ability to sense chakra this good with his eye's close, because I don't think he could be that good and sense an Amatersu coming. I really don't want to get into the speed facter, because it usually just leads to a big debate about feats and databooks, and such, but Itachi himself has shown good speed feats and databooks have him at 5, I believe, I know they are 100% accurate, but just some stuff. I still don't think Susano'o is based on Itachi's chakra like I stated based on the feat, when he used it in the Sasuke fight and was already out of chakra. As for the Susano'o being absorbed and that taking away its sealing ability, I just don't know that is a hard thing for me to accept.

Another wall of text, I even had to stop, or it would have been longer. Overall, Based on these three fighters, Sasori > Itachi 75% of the time. Itachi > Kisame 65% of the time, and Kisame > Sasori 75% of the time. These are my opinions at least.
The Kazekage uses his chakra to mold Iron Sand, so he has to make it first and the prep for the bubble requires at the very least the same amount of time, it shouldn't be too hard, Kisame should have it at least 8/10 times and if he uses the bubble it could possibly crush Sasori's body.

I have made other points about genjutsu like his Samehada can act as abijuu and get him out of genjutsu and he showed good skils at fighting with his eyes closed when KB unleashed the ink.

Kisame only showed a small amount of clones because that's all he needed to dispatch Team Gai, but if Zabuza with his regular chakra capacity made 10, don't you think Kisame with his bijuu level chakra can make hundreds to block Itachi and his clones? Plus, with Itachi's low stamina as seen in the databook won't be able to last as long in the water or make as many clones. It shouldn't be too hard to figgure out which one is the real one and like I said the bubble is pretty big, KB with his superior eyesight to human who can see iirc for a few miles away couldn't see an end to the bubble.

Also, about speed, what makes you think Itachi will be as fast under the water where his running speed is slowed and he mainly only has swimming speed which Kisame from what's shown is superior in, in the water Itachi looses any speed advantage he has.

For, Susano'o, what makes you think it has more then 6 tails worth of chakra? Samehada can absorb that at once and every special ability in this manga comes from chakra, so Totsuka is most likely laced with chakra Kisame can absorb.

Amaterasu can be countered with clones, if Kisame makes hundred of water clones, he can have them protect him from Itachi's eyesight and I'm pretty sure the water would hinder Itachi's eyesight.

I think Kisame has this 6 to 7 out of 10 times since Itachi will eventually loose his oxygen as well.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:52 AM   #240
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Default Re: Akatsuki Tier List.

Who thinks that Naraka Path should be moved above Hidan? If not, then should Hidan be moved below Naraka Path? I just think that due to the massive prep the Curse Takes and because Naraka actually has one or two taijutsu feats he could beat Hidan.
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akatsuki, battlegrounds, deidara, hidan, itachi, jugo, kakuzu, karin, kisame, konan, madara, pain, sasori, sasuke, suigetsu, tier list


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