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Old 06-20-2013, 01:32 PM   #101
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Old 06-21-2013, 12:43 PM   #102
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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These debates are simply arguing about what can hurt Kakuzu through sheer force. Instead of thinking of all these vulnerabilities Kakuzu has against the sand, think about Gaara's vulnerabilities. Gaara can't just instant summon ultimate defence and crush Kakuzu at the same time.. or else he would have done that to Deidara.

Gaara is not the only one improving... if PTS Chidori can penetrate PTS sand defence then obviously Chidori has also imrpoved. So ATS Chidori could probably pierce ATS sand defence. That's even if it's much stronger.. I'm sorry, but the ultimate defence Gaara used during the Chuunin exams was most likely as dense as it can get. Gaara has certainly improved all of his techniques, but it's unlikely that he can make the sand more dense that before. Did you even see how solid and near impossible to break the chuunin exam sand defence was? You are basically saying that Gaara's defence can increase even MORE by more density. I'm sorry.. but that's a little OP if you ask me. To make the defence even stronger than before would make him invincible, which clearly he is not. Sand IS only sand because otherwise, the chakra inside the sand could have blocked Deidara's bombs. This is enough proof that the sand can be easily penetrated by a variety of things, hence Kakuzu's doton arms as Deidara's doton bombs.

Now try to think of this in Kakuzu's favour for once. Do you really imagine the whole fight as Kakuzu running away from Gaara's attacks and dodging the entire time. Gaara also has to avoid Kakuzu while trying to fight him. He can't defend and attack multiple opponents accurately at the same time. He can't defend against everything. He can't dodge the high scale element attacks; only block which is still unlikely. Seriously.. how much could his sand possibly sustain? Kakuzu's element attacks were wiped out by a plot armor water typhoon. Kakashi needed a his space/time jutsu to avoid it otherwise as he claimed. You either vanquish Kakuzu's fire/wind combo, or you send it to another dimension. It cannot be blocked as easily as you claim.

Gaara's "ultimate sand chakra defence" has been penetrated before by raiton and doton; which Kakuzu has both on a high scale. Gaara definitely does not easily win this.
You say to think about Gaarra's weaknesses but what about Kakazu's weakeness. Please keep that in mind.

I agree that Garra would not instantly be able to use his sand. but he will be able to use his sand faster than Kakazu can summon the masks.
Not only is it OOC for Kakazu to use the masks off the bat but they do not get out of his back instantly. chp334 pg 6 it takes 3-8 panesl (or a page or 2) to get the masks out of his back. While for garra it takes just a panel.

What is ATS? And Chunnin Exam Garra's sand sphere was the densist at the time. It can get a lot denser with current Garra. Your opinon of it being OP or too good to be true does not matter. His sand has improved and have been commented by Saskue and Lee and Kakazu. I don't know why you are comparing
-Fodder Senbon rain ninjutsu from a rain ninja
-a PTS imperfected Chodori from Saskue
-Kimmaro bones
To S-rank ninja and their ninjutsu that is practically forbidden. Dediara's bombs are way more powerful and he used them more effective then all of the others I listed. Dediara did not just used them with just direct brute force. Your compaing apples and oranges with potato chips. The people and the attacks and the way they did it not to mention their level is totally different

Chp249 pg 15-16
Garra was able to protect himself and use the sand to protect himself from Dediara's bomb bird with close range and Garra did not get a scratch

Garra's sand improved OVERALL! Afterall Garra has more chakra and more control. The more chakra you put into something the stronger the jutsu.

Dediara put the bombs in the sand in a sneaky and tricky way. It was not a direct way like most of the ninja who face him do. Dediara never directly harmed his sand. And Kakazu can not do what Dediara does. The bombs could not have been detected. How and why could they? That is not an ability of the sand. Plus Kakazu is not Dediara and his doton is not on his level and the threads are not interminable. The same plan wont work on Gaara twice

Gaara's sand was penetrated by Explosive release not Doton/Earth release.
And only close range Raiton/lighting release penerterated the sand...not long range lighting tech. Chodori is like a knife. False darkness is a blast of lighting energy. It's like Kakashi's lighting blade would cut something better then his lighting running hound jutsu. And Kakazu's false darkness ration ninjutsu was absorbed so we did not see how effective it was. Look at how when Kakashi absorbed the jutsu. It did not cut. It just destroyed the gloves on Kakashi. It did not cut. It compelelty destroyed it. So again its different. You cant compare apples and oranges.

Garra is used to fighting multiple opponents chp 547 for example.

Garra's sand sphere suruived C1-C3 which is a much more destructive and a better feat then fire/wind combo.
Garra protected a large village with C3 (yes with the help of a desert) but if Garra can use all that sand to protect the village then he can use his own special sand to protect himself better. His own sand is way better than the any old other sand.

But sand is not sand. Gaara's own gord sand is his own special sand but everything else of any kind of sand is useless unless garra influences it.

There is more than just 2 ways to counter an attack.

His elemental jutsu are around mid range. Elemental attacks don't have great ranges. And Garra ususally fights on his sand platform so he can have great distance and fly. So he can avoid or dodge it. We already proved that the masks are not very fast and can not fly so it will be hard to get Garra

Kakazu is not winning this
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:39 PM   #103
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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You say to think about Gaarra's weaknesses but what about Kakazu's weakeness. Please keep that in mind.

I agree that Garra would not instantly be able to use his sand. but he will be able to use his sand faster than Kakazu can summon the masks.
Not only is it OOC for Kakazu to use the masks off the bat but they do not get out of his back instantly. chp334 pg 6 it takes 3-8 panesl (or a page or 2) to get the masks out of his back. While for garra it takes just a panel.

What is ATS? And Chunnin Exam Garra's sand sphere was the densist at the time. It can get a lot denser with current Garra. Your opinon of it being OP or too good to be true does not matter. His sand has improved and have been commented by Saskue and Lee and Kakazu. I don't know why you are comparing
-Fodder Senbon rain ninjutsu from a rain ninja
-a PTS imperfected Chodori from Saskue
-Kimmaro bones
To S-rank ninja and their ninjutsu that is practically forbidden. Dediara's bombs are way more powerful and he used them more effective then all of the others I listed. Dediara did not just used them with just direct brute force. Your compaing apples and oranges with potato chips. The people and the attacks and the way they did it not to mention their level is totally different

Chp249 pg 15-16
Garra was able to protect himself and use the sand to protect himself from Dediara's bomb bird with close range and Garra did not get a scratch

Garra's sand improved OVERALL! Afterall Garra has more chakra and more control. The more chakra you put into something the stronger the jutsu.

Dediara put the bombs in the sand in a sneaky and tricky way. It was not a direct way like most of the ninja who face him do. Dediara never directly harmed his sand. And Kakazu can not do what Dediara does. The bombs could not have been detected. How and why could they? That is not an ability of the sand. Plus Kakazu is not Dediara and his doton is not on his level and the threads are not interminable. The same plan wont work on Gaara twice

Gaara's sand was penetrated by Explosive release not Doton/Earth release.
And only close range Raiton/lighting release penerterated the sand...not long range lighting tech. Chodori is like a knife. False darkness is a blast of lighting energy. It's like Kakashi's lighting blade would cut something better then his lighting running hound jutsu. And Kakazu's false darkness ration ninjutsu was absorbed so we did not see how effective it was. Look at how when Kakashi absorbed the jutsu. It did not cut. It just destroyed the gloves on Kakashi. It did not cut. It compelelty destroyed it. So again its different. You cant compare apples and oranges.

Garra is used to fighting multiple opponents chp 547 for example.

Garra's sand sphere suruived C1-C3 which is a much more destructive and a better feat then fire/wind combo.
Garra protected a large village with C3 (yes with the help of a desert) but if Garra can use all that sand to protect the village then he can use his own special sand to protect himself better. His own sand is way better than the any old other sand.

But sand is not sand. Gaara's own gord sand is his own special sand but everything else of any kind of sand is useless unless garra influences it.

There is more than just 2 ways to counter an attack.

His elemental jutsu are around mid range. Elemental attacks don't have great ranges. And Garra ususally fights on his sand platform so he can have great distance and fly. So he can avoid or dodge it. We already proved that the masks are not very fast and can not fly so it will be hard to get Garra

Kakazu is not winning this

C1 was blocked at point blank by a fodder ninja who was with Onoki and Kurotsuchi and C3's destructive capabilities was never even shown so saying its more destructive than Kakuzu's fire wind combo can't be proven


Chapter 335 pages 5-6 The masks literally came out instantly. Why the hell wouldn't Kakuzu summon his masks if he's fighting the Kazekage? He summoned them just to slap Kakashi around because he knew about Kakashi's reputation with the sharigan.

Again, what exactly is stopping Kakuzu's threads from burrowing through the sand when they can burrow through solid surfaces? His threads are completey different from everything Gaara has ever defended against. Threads are not bones.

Speaking of bones, Kakuzu doesn't even have any bones, lungs, or any other organs but a heart so what is Gaara going to do sand coffin him to death?

Gaara can only kill Kakuzu by killing all of the masks and chapter 338 pages 8-10 says that won't be easy. The masks are stupid fast.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #104
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

so guys the next time prince of Peace dupes the rules regarding civility will be ignored

abuse him..to your hearts content
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:44 PM   #105
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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C1 was blocked at point blank by a fodder ninja who was with Onoki and Kurotsuchi and C3's destructive capabilities was never even shown so saying its more destructive than Kakuzu's fire wind combo can't be proven


Chapter 335 pages 5-6 The masks literally came out instantly. Why the hell wouldn't Kakuzu summon his masks if he's fighting the Kazekage? He summoned them just to slap Kakashi around because he knew about Kakashi's reputation with the sharigan.

Again, what exactly is stopping Kakuzu's threads from burrowing through the sand when they can burrow through solid surfaces? His threads are completey different from everything Gaara has ever defended against. Threads are not bones.

Speaking of bones, Kakuzu doesn't even have any bones, lungs, or any other organs but a heart so what is Gaara going to do sand coffin him to death?

Gaara can only kill Kakuzu by killing all of the masks and chapter 338 pages 8-10 says that won't be easy. The masks are stupid fast.
I agree that C1 was countered with ease. That I agree with. But C3 is leagues above the fire+wind combo. C3 had the potential and put Gaara in fear. He knew that jutsu would do major damage on the village. That is why he made such a big sand guard. The fire+wind combo would not do as much damage. It does not cover as wide of a range.

You and I both know it was not instantly. Your the one who uses panel logic. And it took more than one panel for them to come out. Gaara takes one panel to use his sand. He can use it faster than the masks.

The distance. Can his threads reach Gaara in the air

The sand can pierce him or slow him down or trap him or he can seal him with his sand

Dude for the last time. The masks are not fast. If Choji can hit him (seriously of all people) then the masks are not fast. Choji has lil to no speed feats in base. So the masks are not fast. GK and I already proved that they can not fly and they are not fast.


please check your chps and pgs. A lot of them were wrong
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:58 PM   #106
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

^ You tell me PoP. They are 30 meters away. or 50 feet... Not very far at all. In air or not. What would matter is speed at this time if it comes to distance.

Quote:
You and I both know it was not instantly. Your the one who uses panel logic. And it took more than one panel for them to come out. Gaara takes one panel to use his sand. He can use it faster than the masks.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:23 PM   #107
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

I was talking about that with Kanada (not the distance thing but the masks and sand appearing). Idk why he brought it up either.

It's kinda weird. (the OP) Because the location is on the bridge but Idk if the bridge is that long. If so they would be on the very edges of the bridge right?

Also since there is a huge gap in between them if they are on different sides then the threads will be near useless

But overall SS I agree with you. I was just humoring Kanada and answering his question
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:26 PM   #108
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

t does matter and the distance again is 30 meters. Mr. Track boy you should know how close that is. Bridge size or not they are not at the ends but 30 meters. 50 feet away. They are pretty close. If a human can on normal terms run 100 meters at around 12 seconds or less then any ninja at 30 meters will be under 5 seconds.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:33 PM   #109
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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I wouldn't say that. Onoki can easily turn him into paste.
not so sure about that. considering the shock absorption properties of compressed sand and all

Gaara has the defense and the quick attacking to take out Onoki. assuming he doesnt get turned into paste of course, which as said given the properties of his sand, is rather unlikely to occur
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:37 PM   #110
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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not so sure about that. considering the shock absorption properties of compressed sand and all

Gaara has the defense and the quick attacking to take out Onoki. assuming he doesnt get turned into paste of course, which as said given the properties of his sand, is rather unlikely to occur
It erased fully formed bipedal susanoo as well. That's actually impressive.

Also like when Onoki erased a large chunk of the forest immediately.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:44 PM   #111
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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It erased fully formed bipedal susanoo as well. That's actually impressive.

Also like when Onoki erased a large chunk of the forest immediately.
Gaara's sand defence, especially as of late, seems a more useful defence than susano for the most part (obviously not against Madara of course, but in general). and it clearly has advantages in regards to absorbing immense force, as expected of condensed sand

susano may be more durable against piercing attacks than sand defence (with exception of the sand summon defence Gaara used against kimimaru's hardest bone spear attack, which he may not even have anymore), but sand defence is more durable when it comes to absorbing blunt force

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Old 06-21-2013, 09:53 PM   #112
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Gaara's sand defence, especially as of late, seems a more useful defence than susano for the most part (obviously not against Madara of course, but in general). and it clearly has advantages in regards to absorbing immense force, as expected of condensed sand
Its a deconstructing technique.

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but sand defence is more durable when it comes to absorbing blunt force
HAlf Formed Susanoo tanked giant rasengans.

Can Gaara's sand say the same?
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:02 PM   #113
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Its a deconstructing technique.



HAlf Formed Susanoo tanked giant rasengans.

Can Gaara's sand say the same?
it just seems unlikely to go through Gaara's sand. kishi doesn't portray Onoki, as a character that could so easily defeat Gaara. actually if anything he portrays Gaara as the stronger, more durable fighter. dust release is not unbeatable, and Gaara actually has the ideal defence to stop it, and the attacks to counter

weaker desert sand, that was only hastily compressed by Gaara, withstood a C3 from Deidara. and against 2nd mizukage, well, that battle should speak for itself. while Gaara did have advantages, he still withstood a barage of attacks and defeated his opponent. and, the simultaneous battles of Gaara vs 2nd mizukage and Onoki vs Muu, seemed to hint at numerous points that Gaara is the stronger current kage (i would say "show", but it seems to be disagreed upon. it just seems that everything has showcased Gaara being the more well rounded fighter; sure Onoki has dust release, but Gaara has everything else that matters)

and he simply is way more durable. and its not like his attack is lacking either. Gaara is the more well rounded fighter

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Old 06-22-2013, 05:27 PM   #114
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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it just seems unlikely to go through Gaara's sand.
There is no reason to doubt it though. Especially from manga stand point.




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kishi doesn't portray Onoki, as a character that could so easily defeat Gaara.
He portrayed Onoki as the only one who could stop Mu. The biggest threat to Madara for experience and power.

Quote:
actually if anything he portrays Gaara as the stronger, more durable fighter. dust release is not unbeatable, and Gaara actually has the ideal defence to stop it, and the attacks to counter
Two things.

Flight which speed is enough to casually catch up to Deidara's bird.
Dust Release which is hax offense.


Dust Release isn't unbeatable but nearly anything in NArutoverse isn't suited to fight it well.


In this case its the style and quality that sometimes outstrips the quality and quantity of another.
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #115
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

Didn't read the thread but:

Onoki stomps via Dust Style
Ay blitzes Kakuzu to shreds.
Gaara swarms Kakuzu with sands and crushes him.
Mei probably loses due to being an average Hokage.
Kakuzu has no way of killing Tsunade so she wins by default.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:51 PM   #116
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Didn't read the thread but:

Onoki stomps via Dust Style
Ay blitzes Kakuzu to shreds.
Gaara swarms Kakuzu with sands and crushes him.
Mei probably loses due to being an average Hokage.
Kakuzu has no way of killing Tsunade so she wins by default.
She's not immune to being incinerated to ashes. Tanking impalement to the organs is completely different from being incinerated to bones and ashes.

People overrate Tsunade's durability. She can't heal if she's nothing but a pile of burnt flesh and ashes.

What if Kakuzu goes long range mode and decides to rip every organ out of her body with his thread tentacles? They can't be blocked either because they pierce flesh with ease. She's a human, she isn't built like Hulk, She Hulk, Ironman, or Wolverine. She's a human being and she has human skin, flesh, organs, bones, and blood. She can get incinerated by fire wind combo spams plus tentacles that can hold her still for a while.

She's not beating Kakuzu.

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Old 06-22-2013, 07:20 PM   #117
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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She's not immune to being incinerated to ashes. Tanking impalement to the organs is completely different from being incinerated to bones and ashes.

People overrate Tsunade's durability. She can't heal if she's nothing but a pile of burnt flesh and ashes.

What if Kakuzu goes long range mode and decides to rip every organ out of her body with his thread tentacles? They can't be blocked either because they pierce flesh with ease. She's a human, she isn't built like Hulk, She Hulk, Ironman, or Wolverine. She's a human being and she has human skin, flesh, organs, bones, and blood. She can get incinerated by fire wind combo spams plus tentacles that can hold her still for a while.

She's not beating Kakuzu.

I was gonna say that at first but most members on this site seem to think Tsunades regen is invincible.
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Old 06-22-2013, 07:36 PM   #118
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Its not invincible. Its just she has ridiculous amount of chakra. Enough to heal an entire village.

Tsunade vs Kakuzu is a battle of attrition.
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Old 06-22-2013, 07:54 PM   #119
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Its not invincible. Its just she has ridiculous amount of chakra. Enough to heal an entire village.

Tsunade vs Kakuzu is a battle of attrition.
Kakuzu doesn't have any bones or organs for Tsunade to crush, all he has are threads and a heart that can be moved around to different parts of his body. If Tsunade tries to punch him she will either hit domu or she will just be hitting skin and threads. If her fist even comes close to his heart he can move the heart to his hand or whatever like he did against Shikamaru.

Tsunade can have unlimited chakra for all I care that still doesn't change the fact that her body is still human and it can be incinerated. Her body can't withstand blasts that evaporates suiton upon contact.

The blast will burn all of her skin and hair off, her eyes will explode, her brain would turn to hamburger meat, her hands and feet will be too damaged for her to even move, her organs will be grilled on her burning bones, her face will be unrecognizable, her burnt skin will be floating everywhere, her lungs will look like 2 grilled lamb chops, her heart would look like a grilled tumor

Basically what I'm saying is that Tsunade's body is still human and can't withstand a blast that powerful

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Old 06-22-2013, 11:01 PM   #120
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

And yet here they are sewing her back together in the manga. Go figure.
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