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View Poll Results: Which Senju would you perfer as a Leader?
Hashirama 35 53.03%
Tobirama 31 46.97%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:37 AM   #421
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm1977 View Post
I don't think Karin is a low level sensor at all. Why do you think she is low level?

You making stuff up again?
dude SHUT UP AND READ. Now your really starting to piss me off. I respect your opinion and what you say in all but I. CAN'T STAND EHEN SOMEBODY MAKES UP STUFF OR TWIST MY WORDS AROUND

Can you please use your eyes and brain and please please please!!! Read what I said. I NEVER SAID SHE WAS A LOW SENSOR! I said she was lower level sensor. As in lower than tobirama. Hence the word "er" at the end. I never said she was low

So no I am not making up stuff but you can't read and comprehend


Well you did act like Tobirama can sense if someone is lying. Can anyone else do that? I think you are making stuff up again.

well I think you need to re-read the manga chp 457 pg 5-6


Maybe you need to give Orochimaru a chance to stab someone in the back before we determine if he has an ulterior motive. Kishi spends time on other characters and you make it seem like that is evidence Oro has nothing to gain. But whatev.
So that's a no!!!!
Just admit it. Oro does not have anything to gain from lying to them.

So I just proved you wrong like 1-2 times so when your ready to admit your wrong and or apologize you know where to find me

I would really appreciate it if you would stop calling me out as if I make stuff up

Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekuto View Post
Orochimaru is very condescending in his speech, it's the way he talks to anybody as I recall he blamed the Uchiha on Tobirama saying the police force is easy to be distrusted. My thoughts are that even if that is true it is not the reason they were distrusted, (Kyuubi attack) and Orochimaru talks like that to everybody.
so your using your "theories instead of facts"
I mean this in e nicest way possible but I don't care about your thoughts and I don't care about mine because they are just thheories so they mean nothing


My biggest issue is the timeline I think the Kyuubi attack was around 25-30 years after Tobirama's death and the coup was 7 years after that more than enough time for change if Tobirama had restricted them, but it didn't. There was no issue with Uchiha being the police force until they became distrusted. Essentially their greatest strength (Judicial arm and secretive nature) became their weakness.
when the uchiha found out they were being watched... Whenever that was the distrust started

Madara is obviously bias, not to mention a host of other character flaws. Obito in the conversation to Sasuke almost all of it was a lie so I do not trust anything from that instance with good reason.
okay but I want to know what does Oro have to gain from lying. Why would he lie?

My main point is I don't think Tobirama let his emotions get to him, he could've hated the Uchiha, but that wasn't what guided his decision. The rest of that "not exactly" line goes "I simply thought we had to be careful of clans that pose a threat to the village."
the s does not make it plural he is saying it as a possibility... In other words it was like an "if" kind of thinking

As for the burning building he'd save the closest one first.
They are equall distance away
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:03 AM   #422
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Lol no I'm not I just said my thoughts as part of the sentence structure just like you think being police force is trival and that Tobirama held a grudge. Fact of the matter is distrust towards the Uchiha never came up until after the Kyuubi attack. Tobirama stated he was cautious not distrustful.

Orochimaru didn't state a fact he commented on the decision saying it was an issue later after other events happened. The job of the Uchiha was a plus until the Kyuubi attack.

Unfortunately we have no proof one way of the other if Tobirama kept an eye on other clans, but this does mean we have no proof he didn't. Any thing stated either way is conjecture.

Grabs all babies TGS out, better yet edo tensei grabs babies out. Could just water style the fire out. Tobirama the ultimate firefighter. GG
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:48 PM   #423
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Wheter it was caution or distrust he still SHOULD have talked it out.If he had conerns or worries with somebody it is proper or best to talk it out. Not sneak around and gossip about them. honestly Tobirama is acting like a high school gurl.
-He listens and spreads gossip about the Uchiha
(He should have confronted the rumors and talked to them)

-He treated the uchiha differently
(He distanced them from the village they helped built. He watched them and gave them a "worthy job" while the other clans were untouched)

-He was sneaky and secretive
(these are not good qualities of a leader. Hashirama was an open book. Tobirama should not have wasted all of that time and effort watching them when a good ole' fashion sit down talking to would have fixed everything. )

And please do not see the Uchiha are not reasonable people. Madara and Izuna were the only ones who wanted to continue the war. And Tobirama wanted to keep fighting as well. But the Uchiha are trustworthy. They made the treaty and helped built the leaf. AND THEY WENT AGAINST MADARA! How much more proof of loyalty do you need? So if Tobirama just sat down and explained his concern than the Uchiha would have listened.

So if you want to call it distrust or caution a talk still would have handled it.
Sorry for interrupting/reading wrong by calling what you said a "theory"

You still cant prove Oro is lying
-He has no benefit to lying
-Why would he lie it has no purpose
-Tobirama did not sense him lying
-You have no proof against him that he is lying
-Innoncent till proven guilty
A comment can still be false. Lol Oro said it as a true statement. So are you know saying Oro was not lying and that he was misinformed????

It does not change the fact that Tobirama treated the Uchiha harder to more of an extent than any other clan.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:26 PM   #424
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Originally Posted by paradigm1977
I don't think Karin is a low level sensor at all. Why do you think she is low level?

You making stuff up again?
dude SHUT UP AND READ. Now your really starting to piss me off. I respect your opinion and what you say in all but I. CAN'T STAND EHEN SOMEBODY MAKES UP STUFF OR TWIST MY WORDS AROUND

Can you please use your eyes and brain and please please please!!! Read what I said. I NEVER SAID SHE WAS A LOW SENSOR! I said she was lower level sensor. As in lower than tobirama. Hence the word "er" at the end. I never said she was low
a lower level sensor LIKE Karin.
WHAT YOU SAID...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post

Plus Tobirama is one of the greatest sensors ever so like a lower level sensor like Karin then Tobirama would have sensed when he was lying
Yeah I get the "er." You miss the Like. Like means she is an example among lowER level sensors. Lower accentuates level, not lower than Tobirama. That's on you.
So no I am not making up stuff but you can't read and comprehend

You did it with posts of yours over the last two days. With other people. I'm just not interested in calling it all out anymore, because it would take way too much time. But you do it in the same post where you call out someone else out for doing it. You commit the same violations you accuse others of, yet to me... it seems like you do it the most. And in the very same posts you talk trash when you do it. You increase the font and bold...and it's ridiculous.
Well you did act like Tobirama can sense if someone is lying. Can anyone else do that? I think you are making stuff up again.

well I think you need to re-read the manga chp 457 pg 5-6

That shows yes someone else can. But your example doesn't say Tobirama can. That's who we are talking about. She says lieing disturbs chakra. But that doesn't sugest any sensor can read it. Otherwise, every leader would bring a sensor to negotiations if they could all just look for that. Easy as pie. Check for disturbance. If someone refuses, they must not be honest. And it would be too easy to interrogate ... So I'll give that to karin as a special feat, like a small disturbance. Maybe that was the reason for the reminder. That she is above other sensors. I wouldn't give that disturbance read like a genin level skill that every sensor has. An easy to read disturbance is too easy.

She can hide her chakra from other sensors. chapter 461 page 9.

And Tobirama doesn't have the sensor feats of Karin. She actually has vision of the area. chapter 460 page 6. The panel with all the lines cutting through it. So you know it's in her mind. It's not a cut-away, or it would be drawn the same. It's also not a chakra framework or shadows.

Tobirama can ID clans he's familiar with, and sensed.. 20 or so kumo ninja. But I don't put him over karin. Not at all.

unless someone else has said they can detect lying too. If you find that, then I'll apologize. Otherwise, all you proved is that Karin can do it, when we were talking about Tobirama's ability.

Maybe you need to give Orochimaru a chance to stab someone in the back before we determine if he has an ulterior motive. Kishi spends time on other characters and you make it seem like that is evidence Oro has nothing to gain. But whatev.





So that's a no!!!!
Just admit it. Oro does not have anything to gain from lying to them.

So I just proved you wrong like 1-2 times so when your ready to admit your wrong and or apologize you know where to find me

I would really appreciate it if you would stop calling me out as if I make stuff up. You do. A top 3 offender and the loudest against it. You cutting back on either of these would be great. How about both?

Thanks
You didn't prove me wrong with the way you formed your sentence. You might be able to prove me wrong on Tobirama, but not with a feat for karin.

I'll admit it when you prove me wrong.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #425
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Like as in there are others just like her who are lower leve sensors compared to Tobirama. Whatever dude. The point is that I did not call her a low sensor.

Please tell me of what I have made up

So your saying that one of the greates sensors in the world can not do something that karin can? Tobirama can not sense a distruabnce in people's charka but he can sense things miles and miles away and knows the specific just by their chakra of what clan they are from. So you think Karin has a 1-up on Tobirama? Really? Just Really??

Plus you still have not told me the reason for Oro to lie about what he said in the first place.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:20 PM   #426
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Tobirama was the better leader. Tobi based his actions on what was right or wrong, while hashirama based his decisions off of emotions and relationships until the final battle.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:26 PM   #427
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

But there was peace when hashirama was in charge. And when Tobirama meant well he went about it all wrong
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:35 PM   #428
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

04-18-2013 09:46 PMPrinceofPeace
The toad would b inches above him and covers a large radius. There is no time to react and he is not fast enough to escape. It is an s/T not a normal ninjutsu!

No offense I just look at you differently but I respect your opinion and all
BUT!!!!
-he is a hypocrite
-he is hot headed
-he invented edo tensi
-he treated uchiha unfairly
-he did not trust
-a coup attacked him
-he elected hiruzen as hokage without a vote
-he did not want to talk it out


Seriously why do you like him. What's so bad about hashirama??
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04-18-2013 10:29 PMPrinceofPeace
-he is a hypocrite!!
(He scolded hashirama for putting madara for hokage without a vote but tobirama tells hiruzen he will be hokage without a vote AND he insults hashirama and other hokages for their mistakes. The other hokages admit when they are wrong but tobirama never apologized for his mistakes EVER. He acts like he is perfect and always in the right. He just tells people to shut up or he stays quiet)

-he is hot headed. First saskue says he will destroy the village than when he hears madara is in town he ditches the village he helped built to protect innocent defenseless people to fight madara thousands of miles away to help people who can already fight for themselves. He was the only hokage to want to kill saskue! If they went with tobirama than saskue would not be good. Oro would just cancel out the jutsu and they would go back to the dead and the village would be destroyed

-



-Not a hypocrite.
-Not very hot-headed. In any case, he is less subject to his emotions than Hashirama.
-He invented the most powerful technique in the Narutoverse...okay. (I personally don't like it, but you can't deny its usefulness)
-Had them watched and gave them jobs, didn't treat them unfairly.
-He wasn't naive.
-A couple of criminals from another village attacked him and the Raikage.
-He elected Hiruzen as acting Hokage in a time of war. I'm sure Hiruzen was voted in by the village afterwards.
-He wasn't against talking, he had lots of talks with other governments.

There's nothing wrong with Hashirama-I just like Tobirama more.



yes it's powerful. But you know that's not the point. It caused more than enough trouble and it plays with the dead and death is always involved and its not praised for good.

-what talks to tobirama have with other governments?

-there was no war when hashirama was in charge. No coup just peace

-there was no reason to not trust the uchiha and treat them differently. It would have been easier to talk to them than to watch them
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:03 AM   #429
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Like as in there are others just like her who are lower leve sensors compared to Tobirama. Whatever dude. The point is that I did not call her a low sensor.
If anything, she is above Tobirama, from what we've seen.
Please tell me of what I have made up
Already told you, and re-posted that post somewhere else. It's nothing new. But how about this. Only you refer to Tobirama as a world class sensor. I'm not sure why. Clan ID is likely common in Konoha. The Kumo Ninja he detected. Much different from any other sensor? Sensing that people aren the woods, or powerful people in the woods are surrounding them? He identified where they are from. OK. Not "world class." Karin wasn't even expecteing a battle in ch. 365 page 3. She's walking down the street with a bag. Shopping. And she determines they are being tracked by scent. They don't run for it either, just walk out. Kakashi determines they must have been noticed by an extremely talented chakra sensing type.

I'm surprised you grace Tobirama with such positive exageration. Karin detected the guards looking for them (Sasuke). We know Karin can hide her chakra from other sensors. The miles off sensing was the Juubi, or Madara. That's good for long range.



So your saying that one of the greates sensors in the world can not do something that karin can? Tobirama can not sense a distruabnce in people's charka but he can sense things miles and miles away and knows the specific just by their chakra of what clan they are from. So you think Karin has a 1-up on Tobirama? Really? Just Really??
Yes, Karin has shown more. A lying disturance is a detail, different, from an overall chakra signiture for tracking a specific person, not just general people's movements. I think Karin showed that too, Tracking. I'm too lazy to look for it though. And she detected ninjas without being in battlemode.

Plus you still have not told me the reason for Oro to lie about what he said in the first place.
What do you mean still? Nothing has happened. There has only been one conversation. And that took over 4 weeks. So you shouldn't be waiting for me. You should be waiting to see what happens after Orochimaru blamed the Uchiha problem on Tobirama. We haven't seen what happens next. So this is you arguing just to look for an argument. You're not proving anything. You know time has barely moved forward since the Hokage's were released.
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:25 PM   #430
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Btw-hiding your chakra has nothing to do with sensing. She is not sensing anyone.

So basically you don't know and your stalling... You don't know why oro would lie or was lying but you know he was... WOW great logic

I honestly can't believe you put Karin as the better sensor

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Old 04-24-2013, 10:27 PM   #431
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Btw-hiding your chakra has nothing to do with sensing. She is not sensing anyone.

It's cool. I think it would. I think it is another stage. Not an unrelated power. You can tell me how your version works. If you want. In my version, you have an ability that piggybacks your ability to reach out and sense through chakra. Your chakra is not just sensitive to the world, it understands how nature works, how sensing (a transmitting power in my eyes), is sent out like a sonar on a chakra level, but spreading out in a thicker, circular dispersion. And it gains almost it's wn instinct. Or Karin does. An instinct that perceives how sensing works. Like her sensing has ait's own sense or passes an addition, related sense of the world too, and what can interfere with sensing. And the user is such a master of this transmission, that the user can now shape how it works. Like Sasuke reshaping amaterasu. It also knows what to look for, and what interferes and the signals that it picks up and it learns how to copy those things to ward against transmissions of sensing. Like a stealth aura. It is sent out of the user and reshapen into a something with perhaps a changed polarity of some kind. And that might, if real, describe why her sensing cannot be used at the same time. Because it is the same thing, but used differently.

So, you say it's not sensing and I say it's sensing evolved. If it was something else, why does it work so closely, on the same level, that she nullifies her own power. Never heard of that in a character with powers. One cancelling the other. It's the less common road in stories. An equal at best theory. But if you know that's it and you defeat me with "it's not sensing," whatever. I don't expect you to agree with me. Regardless, it is at worst a sister power, so it's a package deal. And when you got special chakra, that might be just how it goes for you. And you get picked by orochimaru and sasuke. And repped by kakashi. Not bad.

Yet you call Tobirama, my fave hokage, a world class sensor. Even though Kishi has not given world class sensing feats.


So basically you don't know and your stalling... You don't know why oro would lie or was lying but you know he was... WOW great logic

Basically, your question is pointless and you have no argument. It's been a flashback since then. We've been in the past. You act like I should know what's in Orochimaru's head. Ok, so in other worlds, I am stalling because I am not claiming to know Kishimoto's plans for Orochimaru. Let me guess? That is what you think I must know or my argument does not defeat you. As if I care about that. Everyone knows we were on the opposite side of the Tobirama coin. Who moved first? You did of course. Because the story made the more popular argument more obvious. But I don't really care about that. We end up on the opposite sides too often for me to worry about you not agreeing with me. I'm not gonna try to convince you in a drawn out thread. We did that already. Remember? Two threads.

"Wow great logic." How hopeless it is to reason with you. I comment on Orochimaru's unlikely reversal of character, and you say, "oh yeah, huh, huh, huh. What's he thinking then smart guy? How do you know? Well, it's more likely for the character we've seen. So that should be the mroe typical or assumption.

So you are stuck in a swamp of ridiculousness.

I really don't care if you believe me. You can wait for my explanation of Orochimaru's plans if you want. But I'm not rushing on here to see what your response is. Or to bestow a great theory and get rep from everyone. Sorry to disappoint you.


I honestly can't believe you put Karin as the better sensor.
If either of us was outrageous, someone else would have chimed in to help shut one of us down.

You remember what that is like, right? When all these people would respond to you, saying that you are obviously a Tobirama hater. My supposed half baked arguments on Tobirama that you critiqued. And Kalmeast. Great. But that was it. So I'm not unreasonable. But here you are. Still being overly subjective and ruling out likelihoods that are more likely than your own. So technically, you frequently take the underdog or less popular thought. that's cool, no biggie, but you act like those with a more reasonable explanation are crazy.

EDIT: OUR FIRST RESPONSE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kalmeast View Post
Karin is the naturally most top notch sensor in Narutoverse...
INVITE. Back stage pass. Back stage as in, catch up from his post before my last two, and we'll do the around the horn.

Hey? quick question? I don't want to find them all, but how many time has PoP responded to a Tobirama vote with...

That's how it's been between you and me. Not you and others, but you and me. For some reason.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:03 PM   #432
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage View Post
Originally from Chapter Discussion Thread:

I don't think it's hollow minded... I'd rather have someone intelligent in charge than someone who is hopelessly naive and can't escape the past.


I don't understand how not jumping on the pity party wagon makes Tobirama a hypocrite. Sasuke wanted to know about the history of the village and the Uchiha-he wasn't asking them to justify every decision they made.


Understanding is great, but it takes a mixture of qualities to be a good leader, which Tobirama had. Hashirama was a hippie who thought everyone would love each other and overcome all past hatreds with ease. Tobirama strived towards this goal while keeping his head in reality and keeping the village safe. Hiruzen was a perfect example of what would happen when someone followed Hashirama's ideals for an extended period of time. Because he failed to deal with the village's dark side himself and naively believed that everyone could be redeemed he allowed the Uchiha massacre and Oro's Destruction of Konoha to happen.


Alright, you dirty hippie! jk. And I think it's quite presumptuous to say that Tobirama couldn't understand the heart of an Uchiha (like Hashirama could), unless by that you mean that he never allowed one to do what ever he wanted and continue to attack the village or it's a euphemism for taking one as his lover-in which case I agree.

I'm all for understanding-one of my favorite characters in the series (Gaara) would have remained an antagonist if not for Naruto understanding his pain. However, Gaara had only attacked the village once and it was the first and only time Naruto tried to reason and get through to him. There is a difference between understanding/compassion and naivete/"bleeding heart" you know.

I actually think Hashirama the character was a cool and funny dude, and is a good role model. However, I do not think that he was a better politician/leader than Tobirama-not by a long shot. Just because I don't agree with your arguments doesn't mean I don't understand them.


I know, but the point I was trying to make (that he watched multiple clans and not just the Uchiha exclusively) is corroborated by whatever translation you use. I actually like their translations; they've got some personality to them and less grammar/context mistakes, although they're occasionally a bit too cutesy. The quality of their scans are also better.
Well...late response...I got lazy...i had big response that would have destroyed you one shot jokin...haha... but then i lost it from bad internet...and gave up... but i think that we have a good resolved by the bolded area...

When you called Hashirama a good role model and Tobirama a good politician...that sealed the deal.... Better a good role model than a better politician as the connotation behind the latter isn't always positive despite it uses the word "better"... A good politician could also mean a bad individual who is good at convincing the general public... whereas a good role model remains good at all times, both inward and outward...

So if Tobirama is better than Hashi because he's a better politician, then i'd conclude that Tobirama is better as a leader of systems while Hashirama is a better leader of the individual... If you ask me, Individual leadership is more impactful than leadership of systems... That's why the will of fire is that superior because it's of the individual not a system... At the end, the will of fire (individual leadership) survived even after Hashirama's death in people like Kagami, Shisui, Itachi, Jiraiya, whereas the political leadership of Tobirama (leadership of system) collapsed after his death, promoting insurrections among the Uchiha...

Unless you have someone like Tobirama to succeed him, there is no hope for his system of rule whereas you don't need someone exactly like Hashirama to keep fanning the Will of Fire in the individual newer generations...

That's why Hiruzen though not equal to neither hashirama nor Tobirama failed to carry on Tobi's leadership yet was able to pass on the Will of Fire!




Anyways... At those two crazies above me PoP & ParaD...you guys must be best friends by now...this thread is over 20 pages and you're still debating? what the hell is the Topic about this time...perhaps i may jump in if invited...
Karin is the naturally most top notch sensor in Narutoverse...
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:04 PM   #433
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

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Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
But there was peace when hashirama was in charge. And when Tobirama meant well he went about it all wrong

Look at you. It's like you feel the need to make the same post every time someone votes for Tobirama. Like it's you against every Tobirama supporter. And everytime a new Tobirama supporter shows up, you carry the flag for team Hashirama. Or stop carrying your own flag as the opening poster.

Unless they are brand new here, Forum members know that you keep repeating these things like a broken record.

This thread is on page 22, because at this point, people want to give their take. Know why?

The thread title is "vote for the better leader," Not "Debate with Prince of Peace if you think Tobirama was a better leader than hashirama."
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:46 PM   #434
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

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Originally Posted by paradigm1977 View Post
Look at you. It's like you feel the need to make the same post every time someone votes for Tobirama. Like it's you against every Tobirama supporter. And everytime a new Tobirama supporter shows up, you carry the flag for team Hashirama. Or stop carrying your own flag as the opening poster.

Unless they are brand new here, Forum members know that you keep repeating these things like a broken record.

This thread is on page 22, because at this point, people want to give their take. Know why?

The thread title is "vote for the better leader," Not "Debate with Prince of Peace if you think Tobirama was a better leader than hashirama."
Obviously by the polls I am not the only non-tobirama wanker. Yes I enjoy challenging tobirama supporters. If I did not than I would not show them the error of their ways. One of the tobirama supporters saw the light and came to the hashirama side. And someone wanted to make this thread and I just followed on their wishes.
Why are you mad that I am debating with others???
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:47 PM   #435
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

Btw-hiding your chakra has nothing to do with sensing. She is not sensing anyone.

It's cool. I think it would. I think it is another stage. Not an unrelated power. You can tell me how your version works. If you want. In my version, you have an ability that piggybacks your ability to reach out and sense through chakra. Your chakra is not just sensitive to the world, it understands how nature works, how sensing (a transmitting power in my eyes), is sent out like a sonar on a chakra level, but spreading out in a thicker, circular dispersion. And it gains almost it's wn instinct. Or Karin does. An instinct that perceives how sensing works. Like her sensing has ait's own sense or passes an addition, related sense of the world too, and what can interfere with sensing. And the user is such a master of this transmission, that the user can now shape how it works. Like Sasuke reshaping amaterasu. It also knows what to look for, and what interferes and the signals that it picks up and it learns how to copy those things to ward against transmissions of sensing. Like a stealth aura. It is sent out of the user and reshapen into a something with perhaps a changed polarity of some kind. And that might, if real, describe why her sensing cannot be used at the same time. Because it is the same thing, but used differently.

So, you say it's not sensing and I say it's sensing evolved. If it was something else, why does it work so closely, on the same level, that she nullifies her own power. Never heard of that in a character with powers. One cancelling the other. It's the less common road in stories. An equal at best theory. But if you know that's it and you defeat me with "it's not sensing," whatever. I don't expect you to agree with me. Regardless, it is at worst a sister power, so it's a package deal. And when you got special chakra, that might be just how it goes for you. And you get picked by orochimaru and sasuke. And repped by kakashi. Not bad.

Yet you call Tobirama, my fave hokage, a world class sensor. Even though Kishi has not given world class sensing feats.
This is getting off topic. A good sensor has nothing to do with a leader. My fault



So basically you don't know and your stalling... You don't know why oro would lie or was lying but you know he was... WOW great logic

Basically, your question is pointless and you have no argument. It's been a flashback since then. We've been in the past. You act like I should know what's in Orochimaru's head. Ok, so in other worlds, I am stalling because I am not claiming to know Kishimoto's plans for Orochimaru. Let me guess? That is what you think I must know or my argument does not defeat you. As if I care about that. Everyone knows we were on the opposite side of the Tobirama coin. Who moved first? You did of course. Because the story made the more popular argument more obvious. But I don't really care about that. We end up on the opposite sides too often for me to worry about you not agreeing with me. I'm not gonna try to convince you in a drawn out thread. We did that already. Remember? Two threads.
I act like you know what's in Oro's head because you told me that he was lying. You told me he was untrustworthy. You have no proof that Oro was lying. You are just saying that to protect Tobirama. There is no proof against Oro. Oro's statement is true until proven wrong.
So let me get this straight.... You say that Oro is lying.....but you have no proof?? Your just saying he is a liar because YOU think so? You have no proof or evidence but you say what Oro said to Tobirama was a lie.And you don't know why he would lie?

"Wow great logic." How hopeless it is to reason with you. I comment on Orochimaru's unlikely reversal of character, and you say, "oh yeah, huh, huh, huh. What's he thinking then smart guy? How do you know? Well, it's more likely for the character we've seen. So that should be the mroe typical or assumption.
and that is EXACTLY your problem. You assume, and assume, and assume. You assume as much as you can to make what you say right when its not right. As far as we know. Atm Oro is telling the truth until you have PROOF that he was lying. Oro had no reason to lie. He had no purpose. Oro does not just lie for the fun of it. And just because Oro lies once does not mean he lies all the time. Oro wanted to see Saskue's choice so why would Oro want to corrupt Saskue if Oro wanted to see Saskue's honest choice??


So you are stuck in a swamp of ridiculousness.
right with ya buddy

I really don't care if you believe me. You can wait for my explanation of Orochimaru's plans if you want. But I'm not rushing on here to see what your response is. Or to bestow a great theory and get rep from everyone. Sorry to disappoint you.
THANK YOU!!!
Please you did not disappoint me you SAVED ME! I did not want to waste my time reading your "opinons/theoires" because they are exactly worth mine=NOTHING
you have no proof just assumptions so I will keep mine to myself and you can keep yours to yourself

I honestly can't believe you put Karin as the better sensor.


You remember what that is like, right? When all these people would respond to you, saying that you are obviously a Tobirama hater. My supposed half baked arguments on Tobirama that you critiqued. And Kalmeast. Great. But that was it. So I'm not unreasonable. But here you are. Still being overly subjective and ruling out likelihoods that are more likely than your own. So technically, you frequently take the underdog or less popular thought. that's cool, no biggie, but you act like those with a more reasonable explanation are crazy.

Do you realize how useless assuming and theories are? Neither of us are Kishi so what's the point? We can just deny both of it because they have no proof.
Some people call me a hater some call me right.
Question for you though. How many people have grown from Hashirama to Tobirama??
Because my "hating" convinced someone to go from Tobirama to Hashirama!!
Why you ask?
BECAUSE I DONT ASSUME AND MAKE THEORIES
We are both not unreasonable and we are both not haters we are both good debaters.

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:24 AM   #436
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”-ghandi

Hashirama=ghandi

Tobirama needs to forgive
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:57 PM   #437
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

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Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”-ghandi
"He beats me, but I don't think I'll find anyone that loves me more. So I stay. And forgive him. He can be really nice sometimes." - Common thought process of women caught in an abusive relationship.

anyway, hashirama had physical attributes that allowed his leadership stance to work. The whole forgiving Madara thing is great, if you are tougher than him, so Hashirama could take the risk. You think that his style goes into the hokage leadership guidebook?

No. because Hashirama's power allowed him to be mostly unchallenged. That's what made him a great leader. Power+nice guy. It is not a readily repeatable strategy for hokage to use. So he's not the better leader.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:25 PM   #438
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

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I act like you know what's in Oro's head because you told me that he was lying. You told me he was untrustworthy. You have no proof that Oro was lying. You say that Oro is lying.....but you have no proof?? Your just saying he is a liar because YOU think so? You have no proof or evidence but you say what Oro said to Tobirama was a lie.And you don't know why he would lie?

Unfortunately you forget the original context. You first used Oro as a witness against the defense (Tobirama, tried by PoP as a bad hokage who treated Uchiha unfairely). I reasonably, based on his conniving and power hungry ways, argued that he cannot be believed and your opinion on Tobirama is shaped by the words of Orochimaru.

I don't believe Orochimaru because I don't believe the phrasing of the dialog. He's adding salesmanship, not giving a history lesson.
QUOTES from ch.619
"Forming the police headquarters started it" - yeah that's bad
"built the police headquarters where the prison used to be." I bet there's logic on having a prison at the police headquarters or having a heavy structure (Prison walls) used to construct a large building like a police headquarters.
"Because of their authority they tend to be disliked." In high crime areas where the police get tough. But lets blame the mayor. That makes sense.
All these lines have a slant given by the speaker. So I believe Kishi is telling me that Oro has an ulterior motive.


"Wow great logic." How hopeless it is to reason with you. I comment on Orochimaru's unlikely reversal of character, and you say, "oh yeah, huh, huh, huh. What's he thinking then smart guy? How do you know? Well, it's more likely for the character we've seen. So that should be the mroe typical or assumption.
(we read what we read. I believe I'm right, and Oro's dialogue and persuasive intent is supported and went over your head. I am not assuming any more than Kishi expects me to.)
and that is EXACTLY your problem. You assume, and assume, and assume. You assume as much as you can to make what you say right when its not right.

Like I said earlier, you chastise people on assumption, but always do yourself. I never called Tobirama a "worldclass sensor." You did. It's not proven and you aren't even exagerating for a character you like. Of course you didn't address it. Then you would have been as much a hypocrite as you call Tobirama.
And I take Oro's phrasing of dialogue as more important than the actual words. So I believe my assumption is the expected assumpotion of intent as intentionally written by Kishi.

I honestly can't believe you put Karin as the better sensor.

Can you believe Kalmeast said she was the top sensor in Naruto? Right on this very page? She's not even good for anything else. Just based on that and story construction, you should assume she is top 5 in Naruto, and above Tobirama
Now I'm doing red.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:26 PM   #439
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

That is TOTALLY no the same! Especially since HASHIRAMA was the one givin he beatings!!

HASHIRAMA worked hard to be that strong. He was respected and feared. So during his reign it was peaceful and under control

Being nice and powerful like HASHIRAMA
Is Better than
Being rude/controlling and not very powerful like tobirama
(Dont get me wrong he was strong but he is not on legend teir of BG)
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:47 PM   #440
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Default Re: Vote for the Better Leader

See where your debating has gotten you? u shoulda just shut down when Hashirama won the vote but your insatiable lust for debating has made our efforts to make Hashi win floated away with the wind...see now, newer voters just went for Tobi and now it's a tie... lol... the next vote is gonna make Tobirama the victor and no amount of debate u make from now is gonna help...

my time was wasted....lol....
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