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Old 03-30-2013, 07:37 PM   #181
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalmeast View Post
^ well, the one agreement we have now is that, not that he changed his childhood ways, but even his childhood level-headed desires were not without bias. What he said and his actions aren't necessarily coordinating... Even after mentioning adults having to talk, he straightway goes spying on Hashirama who is doing the talking the adults don't want to do and goes to report to his father, who comes along with him, not to talk but to fight!...

If anyone denies this fact of hypocrisy, I have no comment for them... At least Tobirama could have asked Hashi what he was doing with that unknown ninja kid (Madara)...

I still love tobirama and his coolness but I'd admit for this thread, you may be winning... Sorry, I don't debate to win...Resolve and truth is my main course for debating
Well, the actions contradict the theory. That's true. However that was not yet the time. What would you have Tobirama do? First his father ordered him to follow Hashirama. So he has to decide to obey his father implicitly or scheme around him. But Tobirama also has to be concerned about this mystery ninja boy.

Then the three go together to the river, as planned. With Tobirama and their father sticking behind.

Talking and treaties are the goal. But Tobirama, hashirama and Madara don't have the influence yet. They will have to go with the status quo and become strong first. Recognized more by their clans. This was hinted at with Madara and Hashirama in the woods. They said they had to get stronger first. Then be heard by the adults. Kishi then throws in the conflict of them not having the time and they had to fight each other. It was all in the same chapter. So it was it's own pocket story and development. None of Madara, Hashirama, or Tobirama boycotted that meet up.

Tobirama's action or lack of is directly tied to the theme of the chapter.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:43 PM   #182
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

SO you agree that TObirama is a hypicrit?
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:01 PM   #183
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

sorry yall
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:02 PM   #184
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
After the last couple chapters, I feel the dust has settled on this issue.
Oh No No NO my friend this has only just begun!

No new or solid, for the first time, evidence vs Tobirama.
besides that
-Tobirama never truely liked/accepted the Uchah especially madara
-Tobirama did not offer to kill himself to start peace
-Tobirama did not want to start peace but wanted to finish off Madara
-severly wouned Izuna

You quote this then add nothing that is evidence. There's nothing wrong with not liking someone. And Madara deserved to not be liked. Tobirama is not supposed to offer to kill himself. That's why this doesn't happen in real life. Why would it be different in Naruto? Simply because you like the idea as a fan. Whatever your answer, it's not a fact or evidence, just your opinion. So your counter is still not a counter. Tobirama was right to want to finish off Madara because we see what happens after and you simply guess at the motivation without hard evidence. You only guess that Madara wouldn't have turned evil and you blame Tobirama for not preventing that. Severly wounding Izuna is not wrong, it's war. None of your points are evidence or worthwhile.
How did Madara deserve not to be liked? He stopped Hashirama from killing himself and agreed to the treaty. He fought for his clan like Tobirama would have. Madara was very cooperative and helped build the village. Madara was started not to be liked because people did not like him unjutsutly and just forsakened him. They did not like him cuz he was an Uchiha. If Tobirama offered to kill himself he would be a true honorable shinobi. He would kill himself for peace and in the end madara would have stopped him. I dont want Tobirama to die though an most other people use their fandumbness. I dont wank Hashirama. I am using all facts. If Tobirama killed Madara then the leaf village would never be made. ANd since their is no leaf there are no other villages. There would be no peace treaty. ANd the world would still be in the 1st shinobi world war. More senju and Uchiha lives would have been taken.

1. Don't kill yourself brother. Their own clan is joining us. They know you are the nicest guy, and don't want to fight. They know we are stronger too. Madara and Izuna are trapping them in war. This is the guy in the way. Was Tobirama right? Or was he right?
NEITHER he was wrong The Uchiha were not joining them. By killing Madara that would not show off Hashirama kind side. Even though he is stronger the Uchiha and Senju would still fight. Hashirama can not solo the entire Uchiha clan. The uchiha clan would fight and take some senju down with them. Plus seeing the death of Madara would gain the uchiha new power and hatred. Killing them would not solve anything

You don't know what you are talking about. They were joining them. I'm not even gonna tell you the page or chapter. Reread the fight and result. Once again, no new evidence on your side, but there is on mine. Your comment on Hashirama vs the Uchiha clan is you making up a situation that is not only pulled out of thin air, it contradicts what happened. You didn't accomplish anything with this comment either.
Your right they were coneding.
But like I said kiiling Madara would not show their kind side. If they killed Madara the Uchiha would go on a rampage like Hashirama said and the leaf villiage would not be formed. The world would still be in a war of chaos.

Unfortunately, Hashirama doesn't see the big picture. Tobirama does. Hashirama wanted his buddy to rule as hokage. You know what happens in governments that nominate people for being friends or relatives? It doesn't work out. One way or another. Rather have the guy bring democracy to ninja clan leadership structure to be a real leader. He didn't volunteer to die as a PRICE for peace.
Hashirama wanted Madara as hokage because Madara and Hashirama both saw the as you say "bigger picture". They both saw the Senju becoming too powerful. The senju were gaining more rep and responsibilty and power that the Uchiah woould soon be treated unfairly and not as imporatnat. Their society is not like ours so dont compare.

No you are making this up to. There is nothing to support the idea of Hashirama or Madara thinking the senju would be too powerful. Madara felt Tobirama would wipe the Uchiha out. That is a Tobirama as hokage decision. That is not a senju decision. And up to this point there was no evidence Tobirama had an issue with someone other than Madara (at this point in time/age). I gave facts and you countered with nothing.
Madara told Obito who told Saskue said that Madara saw the Senju taking too much power. That is why Madara left the leaf. THey were being treated unfairly. The other Uchiha thought Madara was just trying to start up a war again but Madara was right. And The Uchiha realized that too late. Tobirama obviously had beef with Izuna. They were rivals and Tobirama did not like most uchiha because he distanced them from the village and watched them.

2. And he doesn't want to talk to Madara. What about Madara? Madara gives him a sly look and says "Tobirama" (as in, I don't like you either, so I'll give you the look, and verbally acknowledgement, but that is it.).
not even a simply hello smh

So Tobirama doesn't feel like playing the game.
neither does Madara

Yeah, so why quote this part. I'm not comparing them, just saying Tobirama did nothing wrong. No counter facts here either.
yeah and neither did Madara

Tobirama says you can't chose Madara by yourself. Uchihas are unpredictable. Last page. Madara gives an evil look and tells Hashirama "we ain't friends anymore." Was he right? Or was he right?
it was totally predicatble. Afterall The Uchiha forsakend Madadra and the Senju were becoming too powerful. It was not just cuz madara was not hokage. Again Tobirama is WRONG

Reason doesn't matter, Tobirama called it and there is no evidence he is the one that caused it. You offer no evidence and no reason to counter this point either. We are talking about Tobirama as good or bad.
Tobirama was the main/only one against Madara. Who else was against madara? Tobirama always talked personally to Hashirama. He did not bother talking or considering Madara even though he was just as high up and vital as Hashriama. Tobirama played favorites. He used the democracy ruling so that Hashirama would be hokage. It was obvious that most favored Hashirama so it would be rigg'd like a school election because popularity always wins. TObirama was even the 2nd hokage. If Tobirama did not make the senju people in full power this would not have happened. He discouraged the fact for the uchiha like Madara to have any role are power. What do you think Madara left just to leave? It was obvious to madara that Tobirama was just trying to keep the senju powerful and in charge. And Madara was right and soon the other Uchiah members realized it as well.

total of point 2 is, Tobirama gains support while tobirama haters cling to the words of Orochimaru.
Until proven otherwise Oro was right. When has Oro lied? Tobirama fans just dont like to listen to the magna

No he's not. Because you would have to say the same thing about Tobirama's words. And Tobirama says the uchiha followed Madara's will. Context is they were taking directions from him. You taking Orochimaru's word first shows you are on your path and trust orochimaru over Tobirama and that is still not evidence.
what has tobirama said that contridcited what Oro said? Until proven guilty my friend. Like I said when has Oro ever lied before?

The fact that Tobirama will immediately destroy someone who says he's thinking of destroying a village with thousands of women and children who....oh I'm sorry, the counter argument is that the collateral damage might possibly be only 10 women, 2 children, building damage, loss of family, and economic peril. Tobirama didn't need to talk.
This exactly proves the OP WRONG! Tobirama did not want to talk nor hear Saskue out yet the young Tobirama would have wanted to talk it out and listen. Dont ya see fighitng would not solve anything.!
If Tobirama talked it out and listend to Saskue all of the hokages
HAD A CHANCE TO STOP SASKUE FROM DESTOYING THE LEAF
If they talked to him they could of helped Saskue find his way and be a good guy again....but fighting him off the bat would not do anything. Oro would just cancel out ET and they would disappear

You keep saying the same thing. Focusing on old arguments we've covered. We've done this song and dance. My post was about NEW EVIDENCE. so this is another wasted counterpoint. Shall we count the number of posts that you've said this. I'll rep you if it's less than 10 times. This whole thing about talking to Sasuke... it's just unrealistic in terms of responsibility. You may like the idea of it. It may entertain you, but why should this be done? why should it be done in make believe when in reality it's a bad idea. What makes it different from a logic, govenment, and moral standpoint? And why do you keep hanging onto this? This is another wasted comment.
1-Tobirama is a hypricrite! As Kalmast already pointed out. First Saskue threats to destroy the leaf but when somebody mentions Madara Tobirama wants to ditch the leaf and rush to fight Madara....HOW MUCH SENSE DOES THAT MAKE!? What does Tobirama have ADHD or something? Take care of the problem at hand. Plus Tobirama has never and will never be on madara's level. Madara put a long way threat of Madara before the village which makes NO SENSE.

2-What does attacking Saskue do. It only ends badley
A.Oro cancels out ET and release their souls
B.Saskue fights Tobirama in the leaf which causes collateral damage
C.Oro tigthens control of edo hokages and make them destroy the leaf
D.Saskue and friends destroy the leaf
Overall there is 100% chance that the leaf will be in Danger

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they talk and at least answer his question that decreases the chance of the village being saved and it may turn Saskue from bad to good plus it stalls time for the hokages to break out of ET.

Fighting off the bat solves nothing and it definetly goes against how young Tobirama would not

madara became leader of his clan, but still decided to fight against the stronger clan, when that clan's leader wanted peace. He had even dreamed of it with this guy who is now leader of the more powerful clan. Madara doesn't care. He actually wants to kill Hashirama. Then Madara loses, lies defeated. Hashirama extends his hand...and madara spits on his hand, and tells him to kill his brother first. Or kill yourself. Then our clans can stop fighting. My clan will not have peace until I am satisfied. Don't mind the few who are defecting as we speak. They don't count.
who were defeting? And who is to say Hashirama would do the same thing? Madara deeply loved his brother afterall. And dont come to me and act like Madara meant it. It was just a test and as usually Hashirama passed! Madara STOPPED Hashirama from killing himself and then they made peace

Who were defeated? Why should I even respond to all this? You don't even know what's going on in the manga. Of course the Uchiha were defeated. Not just madara. And the test wasn't just a test. You don't know if madara would have stopped Hashirama from killing his brother. Another bad argument You still offer no new evidence against Tobirama. It's also wrong to TEST this way. but if you enjoy that in the story, that's you. What you want as entertainment does not match right and wrong.
Yes the Uchiha were defeating/losing but you dont know if Madara would have stopped Tobirama. Afterall He stopped hashirama so why would he not stop Tobirama. Even if he did not stop Tobirama it would still lead to peace. The point is Madara stopped/saved Hashirama.
Tobirama: No hope. Kill him. Don't be stupid like you usually are.
yeah Tobirama is sooo smart! Instead he wants to kill Madara and continue the cycle of war and hatred which leads to death. If they killed him the 1st shinobi war would still be happening and the leaf would not be as strong or succesffuly plus both clans would die out

Once again, you are not aware of the manga and the Uchiha joining the Senju. The only cycle of war is with those who want it to continue. That's not a Senju issue. Do you have proof otherwise? Again, you provide no facts or evidence.
without madara ther would be no peace and no leaf village-FACT!
you have no proof otherwise

Tobirama, right as usual. I mean he's calling adults stupid and talking about dumping clan structure for a democracy, a city government. And establishing laws.
yeah as an adult yet he still cant hear Saskue out and answer a single question?!

Didn't read again huh. Tobirama didn't say this as an adult. And the referecne was to negotiate an end to war. Sasuke is an individual, not a country or clan. But he is threatening against many. Reread the last 5 chapters. Another wasted comment. And No, Tobirama is not obligated morally to listen to Sasuke. That's just how you want the story to go. Sasuke is threatening violence. You down play the consequences for a guy with no business at the summit showing up to create violence. No new evidence vs Tobirama. And you are once again wasting your own time posting something you have said at least 7 times across multiple threads. And you are just as wrong now as the other 6.

Nobody said Saskue was a clan nor country stop exageratting to make me sound like I said that. Tobirama does not have to listen to Saskue but it would be the best thing to do. Afterall the rest of the hokages listen to Saskue. Tobirama just had to answer a question. By all means he could have killed Saskue afterwards
Itachi got rep for thinking like a hokage early.
yeah since childhood. Tobirama said adults should talkk yet he can not even do that.

Sure he does, that's why Madara knew everyone would vote for him. And the talk was about peace. Once again you are twisting what was said to fit into your argument so you can have evidence. No you cannot have that. It is not meant for Sasuke, or a single individual threatening violence. You don't sit down for peace by starting with a threat. Period. It means you want to be in control and/or the winner. Not equal. Unless you aren't referring to Sasuke and Tobirama. Once again, another wasted comment.
talking to saskue would bring peace it would have helped Saskue not destroy the leaf. How is that differnt! Saskue was stress and confused and angrey afterall he just put his heart out there and told him all the truth and the pain of his life yet Tobirama does not even care. He is the only a$$ that would not listen. Are you saying he is better than all of the other hokages? Saskue is not in the right at all but Tobirama is hokage and should be the bigger person afterall all of the other hokages were willingly to listen.

Well, Tobirama just leap frogged Itachi on government leadership.
psh how so? Itachi was thinking ahead and planning since day 1 and he never lost his way. Itachi is level headed and puts himself last. He protected others and kept the peace while Tobirama lost the peace.

You think Itachi was planning something as a child who thought as a hokage? What were those plans? Once again you bring no evidence or quotes. And give another wasted comment. Where did Tobirama lose the peace? Obviously he believed killing Madara was needed to bring peace. And the Uchiha later shunned Madara. Again you have no evidence and spend all this time countering with nothing substancial. You say Orochimaru said "...", I say Tobirama said "...." you have anything other than an opinion that can be cancelled out by a more reputable opinion? At worst, it's somehow....an even cancellation. But you have what else? other than Tobiramas dislike of madara as an adult?I am not saying he was planning from the beggining but ever since the uchiha massacure. He planned to join the akaksuki and to try and protect his brother. He even plannd Koto. Tobirama lost the peace when the kumo ninja attacked. Some of them staged the coup and attaked Tobirama. Lol do the gold and silver bros ring a bell? How about the kumo forced that killed Tobirama himself. Seriously I did not think I would have to break it down that low for you. Plus he could not even keep the uchiha people happy. How would killing madara bring peace? The world would still be in war. People would be in fear and hatred of each other the cycle of hatred/fear would continue and the village would not be created.

Frankly, with all the evidence in support of Tobirama, It's more likely Madara genjutsued the leaders of the Uchiha, rather than Tobirama messing with them. Crazy talk by me? How about Obito surviving the boulders and helping Itachi slaughter their own clan?
glad you dont write the manga

Another waste of your time and mine.
samez

All the talk by Hashirama about Tobirama not persecuting the Uchiha was BS. Tobirama and Madara were never going to be friends. But that was it. Hashirama was projecting his feeling for Madara and how Tobirama thinks of him, onto the entire clan.
which would help make peace. EQUALITY

Well according to Hashirama, madara couldn't deal with that. No new evidence vs Tobirama on your part......Again. Equality meant people wanted Tobirama as hokage. And there has yet to be any proof, Tobirama would do anything to bring unwarranted harm to the Uchiha clan.

Tobirama ecluded the Uchiha. He obviously did not and could not harm therem That would be cruel and stupid and others woud see him as a tyrant. So he just threw them away in a bundle so they could be easily watche dover and contained.
Tobirama has been on point the entire time. But some want to hold onto the words of a snake as proof of history.
unless we have proof differntly we hold on to all proof or all that has been said. This makes us not assume

YOU HAVE BEEN ASSUMING YOUR ENTIRE RESPONSE!!!!!!!

I GIVE QUOTES and point out lack of evidece, you say Tobirama should have done this or that differently. We don't need to hold all that has been said equally. Orochimaru is a kidnapper and torturer If you honestly believe we should put weight in his words vs Tobirama, an elected official, then there is no hope for you. But your comments have already proven that.
Being evil does not make him a liar

Fact: Tobirama wanted peace, said adults were stupid not to come together. Wanted democracy. Had a Uchiha in his group when he could have picked whoever he wanted.
Funi how he wanted peace yet would not treat people fairly/equally

He did, that's why he was elected. And you have a serial killer's research to back you up. And the hope that he has no ulterior motive with Sasuke.
See you just exagerate. They are not serial killers. They forsaken Madara and wanted peace but Tobirama still ditched them.

FACT: Orochimaru is the most evil character in naruto. Do not trust his words.
Just because he is evil does not make him a liar. When has he lied? And Madara is defenetly the most evil...or hidan...or Obito. That is not a fact it is your opinon...an assumption

Orochimaru has always had issues. He's more sadistic than every other character in Naruto. No one else forced fights to the death, kidnapped, experimented on victums. Technically it's subjective, but it's still measurable and an easy conclusion.
Still not a liar. Alll of his promises were true
No assumption, I see whats in the manga, and I weigh the actions just as a judge in court would do.
lol wut that IS assuming. Just cuz he is evil does not make him a liar
Orochimaru would easily get the worst sentence of any character. I should not have to teach you the logic of measuring evil actions to determine the most evil person in the manga.
after world domination (obito) is much worse than what Oro did
This has JUST begun
Done!

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:23 PM   #185
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

I wasn't gonna bother responding anymore, but I'll make an exception

Why keep asking over and over if Orochimaru has ever lied? Or just stating he hasn't, like you have a point in matching his honesty to Tobirama.

If you don't remember if Orochimaru ever lied, reading the naruto wikia page for orochimaru before you post a counter to someone might be a good idea. Especially, if you are going to use this point multiple times. This way people won't read what you write and say, "no he's wrong. Oh, he's saying it again. And again."

If you have a theory, or a strong rebuttle, check it before you publish it.

That way you don't lose that argument as soon as you hit "enter,"

And the quality of you posts aren't lowered.

Oh and Obito wouldn't necessarily get the death penalty, but orochimaru would. He didn't just send out soldiers to kill, he performed torture and medical experiments on people. It's more vile. A more grusome evil that leaves less room for becoming good one day.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:25 PM   #186
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

Oro has no motive and no history of lying. I am not saying if Tobirama is lying or not.

Dont use wiki LOLZ
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:38 PM   #187
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Oro has no motive and no history of lying. I am not saying if Tobirama is lying or not.

Dont use wiki LOLZ
This is exactly why Im giving up on you. The wiki for orochimaru covers part of the story that immediately shuts down your claims of orochimaru never lying..

Read, think, educate yourself.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:39 PM   #188
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

the fact that you are trusting and using wiki is just sad

For pete sake they say that naruto does not have earth style yet he can use Earth Style: Mud Wall

That is obviously false so why would you believe everything they say
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:40 PM   #189
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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Well, the actions contradict the theory. That's true. However that was not yet the time. What would you have Tobirama do? First his father ordered him to follow Hashirama. So he has to decide to obey his father implicitly or scheme around him. But Tobirama also has to be concerned about this mystery ninja boy.

Then the three go together to the river, as planned. With Tobirama and their father sticking behind.

Talking and treaties are the goal. But Tobirama, hashirama and Madara don't have the influence yet. They will have to go with the status quo and become strong first. Recognized more by their clans. This was hinted at with Madara and Hashirama in the woods. They said they had to get stronger first. Then be heard by the adults. Kishi then throws in the conflict of them not having the time and they had to fight each other. It was all in the same chapter. So it was it's own pocket story and development. None of Madara, Hashirama, or Tobirama boycotted that meet up.

Tobirama's action or lack of is directly tied to the theme of the chapter.
Again, don't miss out on details... Tobirama said " father had me tail you.....You've been spending a lot of time outside the village, "I" was getting suspicious"... it wasn't the father who was getting suspicious...it was tobirama.. and what did he do? when and told the father...

Tobirama simply could have asked Hashi what was going on...if he thought adults were stupid then that'd imply kids arent...so why doesn't he take responsibility for his words instead of going to report Hashi's actions to the "adult" he condemned as stupid...

I don' miss details buddy... so make sure u don't either...
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:41 PM   #190
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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I don' miss details buddy... so make sure u don't either...

BURNNNNN

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #191
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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@Sergeors
Are you specially planning your text to make it as much unreadable as possible? Your new style is just ugly. Shows you have no respect for readers.

I wont debate with a man, that can't even talk straight.

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #192
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

?huh?
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:06 PM   #193
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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?huh?
Dont "huh" me. look how others using quotes and etc. At least use different color and put answer after what you answering. But bulking all text in mass unreadable sentence is just ugly.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:07 PM   #194
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

you mean post #184?
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:11 PM   #195
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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you mean post #184?
At least like that one. Or like mine posts. It would also help you get your facts straight. You obviously keep forgetting details of our debate.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #196
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

I already address details

and I dont like how you multie quote yet I dont complain

so......DEAL WIT IT
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:14 PM   #197
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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I already address details

and I dont like how you multie quote yet I dont complain

so......DEAL WIT IT
Its readable. Yours - not. And like i said, I wont debate with a man, that has no respect for reader.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:17 PM   #198
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

DItto!
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:26 PM   #199
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

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Again, don't miss out on details... Tobirama said " father had me tail you.....You've been spending a lot of time outside the village, "I" was getting suspicious"... it wasn't the father who was getting suspicious...it was tobirama.. and what did he do? when and told the father...

Tobirama simply could have asked Hashi what was going on...if he thought adults were stupid then that'd imply kids arent...so why doesn't he take responsibility for his words instead of going to report Hashi's actions to the "adult" he condemned as stupid...

I don' miss details buddy... so make sure u don't either...
I didn't. It's in the quote you just gave.

In orange. It was the father's decision. Because he's suspicious. That's not a natural parental reaction without it. It doesn't matter if Tobirama was also suspicious. Or said it first. The father didn't say to Tobirama "let him do his thing, he's responsible." And Tobirama didn't say to Hahsirama, "I followed you on my own." or "I decided to follow you." So it's about going against father's decision, which Tobirama has already declined by not sticking up for his brother, when dad popped him in the mouth.

We can't weigh why Tobirama spoke to his father before his brother. Or even if it happened that way off panel. He's weighing the politcs, loyalty to brother, father, clan, safety, whether this meet-up could actually lead to something fruitful, in this moment in time (which if he believed could, would contradict statements made earlier in the chapter- M+H).

He doesn't necessarily believe Hashirama will make the right decision. Do you think that this is the situation Tobirama was thinking of when he said the adults should talk? Two kids meeting by the river? Alone? His brother could get jumped. Could this bear fruit? I'm not trying to shut your argument down at all, but I think you are pushing too hard on this circumstance.

I just don't see this as a contradiction or error.

For what you stated in blue. We can't assume what they discussed. You showed the Tobirama side of the coin on why he didn't ask hashirama where he was going. The other side of the coin is why Hashirama snuck off and didn't invite his brother? Right? Or did Tobirama ask, and Hashi didn't tell him? Isn't that just as likely? The onus of communication starts where? Who is sneaking off? Shall we just say blame both? I'm fine with that. BUT, the fault is more Hashirama's than Tobirama's. Where is Hashirama's trust?

In purple, it's not definite to me. I took it, as my prior post mentioned, that Tobirama believes he's smarter. He believes Hashi is right on this, for the end point. His brother gave what should be a typical dream for children in his era, who had yet to be hardened by the violence (like Tobirama). On this one, it's more grey for me than the rest, so I could be wrong. But I don't think there is enough there to determine. It's just as much about execution as the idea itself. You can agree on the result, but disagree on the path taken.

The brothers think differently, that's all. Kishi would have contradicted the conversation Madara and Hashirama had about needing to get stronger first, If he had Tobirama's character drop in on M and H. or the negotiations start at this point. That M+H conversation would be pointless, and need to be rewritten. But that is out of story, so there's that too.

One more thing, sorry for the length, Tobirama gave enough details to their father for him to identify madara. That means this tailing was quite important. As was finding out who that boy was too.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:36 PM   #200
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Default Re: Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

Tell me if ya neeed back-up Kal
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