Kages vs Hokages

[Maruko]

Both Mu and Onoki came to Madara after Konoha/Iwa alliance was formed.
Madara said that Konoha would always dominate Iwa.
Mu and Oonoki got mad and started the fight....and they both lost.
Madara>Muu/Onkoki
Hashirama > Madara
Hashirama > Muu/Onoki

Konoha shinobis are the strongest. They always were and always will be. That's how the story is.

[Shisko Shi]

Good point, but that doesn't prove much. The first was also used to fighting an uchia. The others arn't so that could be a problem. I mean what may not work with the 1st might work with the others. But what worked on Madara might not work on the 1st.

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

Good point, but that doesn't prove much. The first was also used to fighting an uchia. The others arn't so that could be a problem. I mean what may not work with the 1st might work with the others. But what worked on Madara might not work on the 1st.

Madara was not used to fighting a dust user, but he still won.

Can't you see what Madara did to Kages? He would've done the same thing if he were alive, too.
He got hit by dust release only to show them the face of the First.
He laughed at them like they were kids...
Didn't even break a sweat.

Did you see that perfect Susano'o? Well, 1st raped it.

[Shisko Shi]

I want to agree but POP will say something like this... Well 1st doesn't have that. Basicly Madara had tools that helped with that fight. But not with 1st...

lol

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Shisko Shi

I want to agree but POP will say something like this... Well 1st doesn't have that. Basicly Madara had tools that helped with that fight. But not with 1st...

lol

xD

[Shisko Shi]

I bet you he will =P

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

They are not water nor sand they are on rocks.

Pop I have already mentioned what it is. I looked it up it is a camo the redirects the light. Either way he STILL makes sound. And if you read my post right you would see that I said. Tobirama would Summon water, or someone could make sand. I know whwere they are at, the Konaha crater. So if he summoned water on the place who do you think would actully win when water splashes are made from walking on it? They would then see that. He jumps of by that time 1st would have summoned the world tree and used the pollen to find him in the air or knock them all out. Yea you got 3RK Manito has that. Then you got Haritobi can distract the others for a bit till Tobirama is done with the water. At that time he helps the 3rd out.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

You keep saying sharingan speed-what is that suppose to mean? Eyeballs don't make you faster, sure you can react better, but it doesn't increase your speed by any means. And it's even been shown that "sharingan speed" can't track A-see Sasuke vs. A. "A would've been done if it wasn't for the others" is just your opinion with nothing to back it up and it's a horrible argument and doesn't make any sense to say that Madara should've been able to catch A if the other Kage weren't there so that makes Madara's reactions better.

Naruto doesn't always move at full speed in his modes. The time Madara "reacted" to Naruto was when Naruto shouted a full sentence out at him while attacking; specifically, "You're dead, don't meddle with us!"- so he wasn't moving fast at all. I've told you this before, but apparently you have selective memory.

How is it reaching to say Onoki kills Madara with a jutsu that can disintegrate anything by dismantling at an atomic level. Especially when Madara has no notable speed feats and Onoki can use it on the scope of the island turtle.

Hashirama distributed the Bijuu to the other villages-it is never stated that he fought them all at the same time. His jutsu is also like kryptonite to them, it says nothing about his stamina. Try again.

Multiple other Kage have been compared to Bijuu as well. A for instance. Try again.

I said that the Hokage do have a chance if Minato is at his A-game. If you read the previous posts you would know that. I'm not downplaying, I'm just reacting to your wanking of a character who has only shown mid-tier feats and all of his power comes from hype. Your horrible arguments are completely based off of Hashirama (barely) beating a much weaker version of a character who beat the 5 Kage.

Edit: Lol at your argument of Hashirama growing a forest to stop a flying Muu.

Lol learn to pay attention to the story you are trying to debate. The sharigan slows the movements down of the opponent considerably. Giving them precog and allowing them a faster reaction. Making them faster. Also Sasuke was still countering A blow for blow because of the sharigan. Case and point A losing his arm. A just had a dominant form of strength. Every attack A made Sasuke countered in return with the sharigan. That is sharigan speed.

Lol you can't use words to gauge the speed of a character in the story. Words operate as a free action. They almost never match up with the timeframe and movements of characters. Also character movements are slowed down to illustrate combat scenes. Don't expect shade lines for each and every highspeed movement. Bee is just as fast as A but you hardly ever see highspeed shades associated with his speed.

You are clearly not using your brain if you think Madara has no speed feats. Just reacting and countering with attacks is a form of combat speed feats. Not everything is illustrated by blurs. Which is why you are under the impression Madara has no speed feats. A character who faced a whole army down and was casually raping them with his speed at one point. You need to re read from Madara's appearance.

When did Onoki even land a hit Madara? If he did he had a lot of help.Also Madara cleave a mountain and sveral kilometers how is the turtle impressive at this point?

Lol did you say multiple kage has been compared to bijuu. Chapter and pg please. Then you even said A.

So the bijuu magically appeared to him with pokeballs. Yeah just stop.

Mid tier yet he is known for cutting a valley with his attacks. Taming the most powerful beings in this story, and known for one of the greatest shinobi in the story. Yeah what the hell story are you reading. Wood style has decimated the shinobi army. Also you keep saying Madara was weaker when in fact you have no clue what you are talking about. He was still capable of cleaving a mount in half with susanoo and every sharigan move set before he died. Not only that he had a full powered Kurama under his control with him. You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about with that statement.

Wood style is massive in height and range nothing suggest muu or Onoki can escape.

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol learn to pay attention to the story you are trying to debate. The sharigan slows the movements down of the opponent considerably. Giving them precog and allowing them a faster reaction. Making them faster. Also Sasuke was still countering A blow for blow because of the sharigan. Case and point A losing his arm. A just had a dominant form of strength. Every attack A made Sasuke countered in return with the sharigan. That is sharigan speed.

Lol you can't use words to gauge the speed of a character in the story. Words operate as a free action. They almost never match up with the timeframe and movements of characters. Also character movements are slowed down to illustrate combat scenes. Don't expect shade lines for each and every highspeed movement. Bee is just as fast as A but you hardly ever see highspeed shades associated with his speed.

You are clearly not using your brain if you think Madara has no speed feats. Just reacting and countering with attacks is a form of combat speed feats. Not everything is illustrated by blurs. Which is why you are under the impression Madara has no speed feats. A character who faced a whole army down and was casually raping them with his speed at one point. You need to re read from Madara's appearance.

When did Onoki even land a hit Madara? If he did he had a lot of help.Also Madara cleave a mountain and sveral kilometers how is the turtle impressive at this point?

Lol did you say multiple kage has been compared to bijuu. Chapter and pg please. Then you even said A.

So the bijuu magically appeared to him with pokeballs. Yeah just stop.

Mid tier yet he is known for cutting a valley with his attacks. Taming the most powerful beings in this story, and known for one of the greatest shinobi in the story. Yeah what the hell story are you reading. Wood style has decimated the shinobi army. Also you keep saying Madara was weaker when in fact you have no clue what you are talking about. He was still capable of cleaving a mount in half with susanoo and every sharigan move set before he died. Not only that he had a full powered Kurama under his control with him. You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about with that statement.

Wood style is massive in height and range nothing suggest muu or Onoki can escape.

Must spread! Noooooooooo!
Kages rape them. End of story.
Nice text, dude.

[PrinceofPeace]

stop using Madara>>Onoki/Muu as "evidence"

We do not know ANYTHING about their states. For all we know they could have not learned Dust Release yet or the technique where Muu dissaperas

Or they could have been tired

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol learn to pay attention to the story you are trying to debate. The sharigan slows the movements down of the opponent considerably. Giving them precog and allowing them a faster reaction. Making them faster. Also Sasuke was still countering A blow for blow because of the sharigan. Case and point A losing his arm. A just had a dominant form of strength. Every attack A made Sasuke countered in return with the sharigan. That is sharigan speed.
The opponent does not slow down. The User sees the movements more clearly and it lets the user have a better chance to dodge. But in some cases the foe is too fast to track. Idk where you get your info from

When did Onoki even land a hit Madara?
I love how you tell others to read the manga yet you forget stuff.
Anyway When Madara was using the Advent of flowing trees Onoki used Dust Release to destroy the trees and hit Madara...but Madara wanted to get hit though
If he did he had a lot of help.
Nope all by himself
Also Madara cleave a mountain and sveral kilometers how is the turtle impressive at this point?

Lol did you say multiple kage has been compared to bijuu. Chapter and pg please. Then you even said A.
3RK took on Habachi so he was like a bijju.
Yagura was a bijju
Hashirama was stronger than bijju on So6P level

Mid tier yet he is known for cutting a valley with his attacks. Taming the most powerful beings in this story, and known for one of the greatest shinobi in the story. Yeah what the hell story are you reading. Wood style has decimated the shinobi army. Also you keep saying Madara was weaker when in fact you have no clue what you are talking about. He was still capable of cleaving a mount in half with susanoo and every sharigan move set before he died. Not only that he had a full powered Kurama under his control with him. You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about with that statement.

Wood style is massive in height and range nothing suggest muu or Onoki can escape
wood justsu is slower then Dust. As the Wood grows Muu wouold obliterate it away
.

[Devils Lawyer]

First of all learn to read what I said. I never said it slowed the opponent down. I said it slowed their movements down for the sharigan user. It is a form of precog. Do you know what precog means?

Next you tell me of a random fight page. That Madara let himself get hit. Which clearly says the scene is insignificant.

3rk had a massive durabilty and he didn't even defeat the Hachibi by himself, Yagura is like no sh-- son, Harishima was the original bijuu tamer so he was a double no sh--

Yeah he would die of chakra exhaustion trying to completely destroy Harishima;s forest. That or Harishima just puts everyone on the field to sleep.

[PrinceofPeace]

Onoki destroy the forest in a weakened state. He destroyed Edo Madara's forest who had unlimited chakra so how is his forest any less than HASHIRMAMA's

and neither of the kages nor hokages have a sharigan so idk why you even bring it up. Especially without your proof.

But again nothing is stoping Mu. He will spam dust style in the sky and Minato can not do anything. He is not fast enough to stop him with the distance or prep and he is busy with 3RK.


The forest is not fast enough and would be oblitereated

2HK jutsu's only help 2MK

and Hiruzen is just there to be there

[Maruko]

^It was stated by Iruka in part 1 that Hiruzen's the strongest hokage ever.
He ain't there to ''just be there''. He took on both Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama and still managed to seal them both.

[PrinceofPeace]

So what can Hiruzen do? We can not go by just hype.

Hirzuen's fire style is defeated by
-4KK sand
-dodged with 3RK speed
-does not effect 2MK 9Cuz he is made of water)
-2TK dodges with flight or obliterates it with dust

What can Hiruzen do?

He can summon Enma but its practically just a weapon. It would get destroyed by dust style and beaten to death by 3RK. and Enma can not do physcial harm to 2MK.

By luck Hirzuen MAYYY be able to beat 4KK

[Sagepain]

Originally Posted by Maruko

^It was stated by Iruka in part 1 that Hiruzen's the strongest hokage ever.
He ain't there to ''just be there''. He took on both Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama and still managed to seal them both.

With mid tier feats he defeated both Hashirama and Tobirama......

That doesin't help your argument in the slightest.

[Bazk]

you cant really compare madaras forrest who got the skill right before he went in to exile crying for a 100 years vs the guy who has been using it since he stood on his legs. and unlimited chakra doesnt mean he can extend any attack for infinity like a fireball that goes around the earth 6X, it means he uses a tech that A. Drains his chakra for that amount and the replentish itself or B the techs doesnt drain chakra at all or if it does his supply is limitless like it takes 15 chakra to use fireball and his supply is 999999999999999999999999999 etc

[Sagepain]

^ Its been proven in the series multiple times that the more chakra you put into a Technique/Jutsu the more powerful it gets.

As seen with many Rasengan variants/ More clones, etc....

[Devils Lawyer]

It should be a common sense answer that both Hashirama and Madara had a massive amount of chakra even without being edo.

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Sagepain

With mid tier feats he defeated both Hashirama and Tobirama......

That doesin't help your argument in the slightest.

What? Rofl.
You too support the statement which says that Hiruzen has no powers and is there because he's, well, there?
Yeah, he was a hokage because he sucked.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Alright DL, this is how you debate:

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol learn to pay attention to the story you are trying to debate. The sharigan slows the movements down of the opponent considerably. Giving them precog and allowing them a faster reaction. Making them faster. Also Sasuke was still countering A blow for blow because of the sharigan. Case and point A losing his arm. A just had a dominant form of strength. Every attack A made Sasuke countered in return with the sharigan. That is sharigan speed.

Faster reaction doesn't make you physically faster. Chapter 37: Lee beats down Sasuke even though Sasuke has his magic eyes and he says, "Even if you read my movement with your eyes, your body does not have the speed to react to my taijutsu".

Sasuke was not countering A blow for blow when he got serious (aka activated V2). Chapter 463: Sasuke is looking in the opposite direction from where A is attacking. He activates Susano'o covered in Amaterasu so A won't attack him. Karin says, "Raikage is impossibly fast! But this way Sasuke is protected even if he can't follow Raikage's movements!" A lost his arm, because he was angry and didn't want to be underestimated so he decided to attack Sasuke anyway, despite knowing his arm would be lost to Amaterasu.

Who's the one not paying attention to the story now?

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol you can't use words to gauge the speed of a character in the story. Words operate as a free action. They almost never match up with the timeframe and movements of characters. Also character movements are slowed down to illustrate combat scenes. Don't expect shade lines for each and every highspeed movement. Bee is just as fast as A but you hardly ever see highspeed shades associated with his speed.

Haha...wow, nice try. You're really grasping at straws now and are not going to be convincing anyone with this. Seriously, think about it. You're saying that someone shouting out an entire sentence which the opponent is able to hear is moving faster than someone who can move faster than the eye can track. All of the fastest blitzes in the Naruto manga have been done without words or interrupt a thought/speech process. So no "words as a free action", as it defies both physics and common sense . The only time I could even begin to agree with that is when characters are thinking about something. Bee is not nearly as fast as A either.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

You are clearly not using your brain if you think Madara has no speed feats. Just reacting and countering with attacks is a form of combat speed feats. Not everything is illustrated by blurs. Which is why you are under the impression Madara has no speed feats. A character who faced a whole army down and was casually raping them with his speed at one point. You need to re read from Madara's appearance.

Yeah, he cut down, what, like 7 fodder...such a great speed feat I guess you also forgot how Gaara casually caught his sword in that same chapter. I'm not saying Madara is slow, he's just not anywhere close to A or Naruto level speed.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

When did Onoki even land a hit Madara? If he did he had a lot of help.Also Madara cleave a mountain and sveral kilometers how is the turtle impressive at this point?

It's impressive in that it can't be avoided and is a surefire 100% death sentence. Unless you think Madara can survive being atomically dismantled.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Lol did you say multiple kage has been compared to bijuu. Chapter and pg please. Then you even said A.

Chapter 463, Page 8: Karin says, "Raikage's chakras are still growing. These are Tailed Beast levels."
Chapter 555, Page 9: Hachibi flashback in which 3rd Raikage takes on Gyuuki 1v1.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

So the bijuu magically appeared to him with pokeballs. Yeah just stop.

Madara caught Gyuuki with minimal difficulty using wood style. It's a lot easier to defeat an opponent when you have its "kryptonite".

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Mid tier yet he is known for cutting a valley with his attacks. Taming the most powerful beings in this story, and known for one of the greatest shinobi in the story. Yeah what the hell story are you reading. Wood style has decimated the shinobi army. Also you keep saying Madara was weaker when in fact you have no clue what you are talking about. He was still capable of cleaving a mount in half with susanoo and every sharigan move set before he died. Not only that he had a full powered Kurama under his control with him. You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about with that statement.

Pretty much all of what you mentioned was hype. What we've actually seen from Hashirama is largely unimpressive. As Sagepain said, he was taken down by Hiruzen with mid-tier feats. All we know about Hashirama is what Madara has told us while he's stroking his ego and trying to justify how he lost. It's like you lose a fight against an Orange belt Karate student, but then bring a gun to a fight against a blackbelt and say, "Yeah, that orange belt was way tougher than you. Because you know, he beat me."

And EMS Madara as strong as Edo Madara...? Trololololol

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Wood style is massive in height and range nothing suggest muu or Onoki can escape.

Yeah, nothing except the fact that Onoki did avoid it. Chapter 575. You're still trying to argue that you can catch a flying opponent by growing a forest. smh


@Maruko: Your analogy about Madara vs. Onoki and Muu doesn't really work because you're making a ton of assumptions.
First off, Onoki and Muu walked into the "fight" against Madara thinking they were going to be involved in a peace treaty/Alliance and were already making eye contact with Madara which means easy prey to genjutsu. Second, there is no way of knowing if either of them could use Dust Release at the time.

[Bazk]

Originally Posted by Sagepain

^ Its been proven in the series multiple times that the more chakra you put into a Technique/Jutsu the more powerful it gets.

As seen with many Rasengan variants/ More clones, etc....

yeah and? if he would have (to simplify) 200mana dies and get ressurected he doesnt get like 9999 mana he only can use as much he could when he was alive its not like that you get better or more chakra