is Tobi immune to MS blindness?

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by scallanan

Hmmm, so senju + uchiha dna can't be the answer to max out the MS, or Uchiha's would've done this instead of killing their brethren for EMS? Is that what you're saying?
If so, good point. It honestly doesn't make sense then. We know the first's cells made the sharingan more powerful, and also allowed for the sharingan to form into a rinnegan. And it made some jutsu such as kotoamatsuki to regenerate much quicker! But, we have no proof that senju dna will allow for spammed use of MS.

Obito, as said above, has many sharingan eyes at his lab. Therefore, it is full-well probable that he transplants them as they begin to fade. This was for a time until he could get the rinnegan.

Kakashi has got NO SENJU DNA! And he does not seem to be carrying any blindness to the eyes, as of yet. He seemed to only start using it after the 2 year skip despite awakening it at an early age. He has used it now enough times for him to be feeling the sealing effects of it by now. All we really see is his stamina plummet from using it. And I think the point made by someone before about how he closes one eye when he is using his sharingan makes it obvious that he isn't going blind, or he would keep the other eye open to be able to "see" properly.

Shisui also had NO SENJU DNA and used kotoamatsuki many times in his lifetime. There isn't really any proof or disproof about whether or not he was going blind, but Itachi certainly didn't know about it, or at least didn't mention it. Shisui's eye would've been used countless times no doubt, with it's amazing powers, so then why didn't he go blind either?

Danzo has senju dna, but we don't see evidence that he actually used Shisui's eye to much extent. Therefore it is hard to tell whether he was suffering from any drawbacks just like Sasuke or Itachi.

Sasuke, Madara and Itachi ALL HAD THE THREE MAIN MANGEKYO TECHNIQUES!! Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi!! They are the three people in Naruto history that have gotten blindness in their eyes. If no other uchiha or mangekyo sharingan user has shown to be going blind, then it must be down to the fact that these three jutsu are the most powerful of all the MS techniques, and poses the most strain on the user's body (susano'o pains the body, while tsukuyomi and amaterasu seal the eyes). I'm nearly sure I remember a chapter in which it explained that these 3 techniques are what make a MS go blind, but I can't find it.

Overall, Senju DNA doesn't really seem to be the answer. I think it's determined by what eye techniques you use (as Izanagi, a normal sharingan technique will lock the eye away forever, even WITH SENJU DNA!!)

Agreed but not exactly, kamui can cause blindness too! the fact that Kakashi knew that using MS ability can make the user go blind is a valid argument that Kakashi is also suffering from this draw back. It simply suggests that using Kamui doesnt put much strain to the eyes unlike the 3 special tech which are amaterasu, tsukoyomi and susanoo that causes the eyes to bleed.

You have to take note that Kakashi only uses his MS when it deemed necessary so to speak, the probability of Kakashi going blind is very low but unlike Kakashi, Obito is using his MS most of the time so he should've gone blind already but he's not right? hence, by deduction it is the Senju DNA that is keeping his MS alive and healthy.
Whether Obito is immune to blindness or not due to having Hashirama's DNA is still unknown though.

Originally Posted by scallanan

Izanagi is not dependant on Uchiha + Senju DNA because
Itachi was shown to be able to use it in his fight against Kabuto

Itachi used izanami against Kabuto not izanagi.

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Agreed but not exactly, kamui can cause blindness too! the fact that Kakashi knew that using MS ability can make the user go blind is a valid argument that Kakashi is also suffering from this draw back. It simply suggests that using Kamui doesnt put much strain to the eyes unlike the 3 special tech which are amaterasu, tsukoyomi and susanoo that causes the eyes to bleed.

I don't know. Kakashi could've known about it - he had a pupil who was an uchiha and his old friend was an uchiha. I think the kage would've told kakashi everything he needs to know when training an uchiha, especially one that was suffering (and the fact that he has a sharingan means he must've researched about it's powers).

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

You have to take note that Kakashi only uses his MS when it deemed necessary so to speak, the probability of Kakashi going blind is very low but unlike Kakashi, Obito is using his MS most of the time so he should've gone blind already but he's not right? hence, by deduction it is the Senju DNA that is keeping his MS alive and healthy.
Whether Obito is immune to blindness or not due to having Hashirama's DNA is still unknown though.

This is true. But I don't see any evidence of Kakashi going blind. I've deduced that everyone who didn't have the three main techniques, didn't go blind (as there was no evidence). It's just as valid as your argument, but I can see where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Itachi used izanami against Kabuto not izanagi.

Sorry my mistake. Both come hand-in-hand anyway and it doesn't disprove my point

[gatekeeper8]

Sorry my mistake. Both come hand-in-hand anyway and it doesn't disprove my point

actually yes it dose what we know is that obito says izanagi uses yin yang style which requires both dna yet we do not no if izanami dose considering izanami seems to just be a standard type of gen jutsu were as izanagi bends the rules of reality it stands to reason that izanagi uses yin yang style where as izanami dose not yes it very powerful and has the same effect as to loss of sight but its kind of the same as how standard sharingan can use genjutsu yet only MS can use tsukuyomi

[Devils Lawyer]

Tobi has a whole supply of sharigan stored away in his hideout. That was shown a minute ago.

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by gatekeeper8

actually yes it dose what we know is that obito says izanagi uses yin yang style which requires both dna yet we do not no if izanami dose considering izanami seems to just be a standard type of gen jutsu were as izanagi bends the rules of reality it stands to reason that izanagi uses yin yang style where as izanami dose not yes it very powerful and has the same effect as to loss of sight but its kind of the same as how standard sharingan can use genjutsu yet only MS can use tsukuyomi

Izanagi and Izanami were one in the same jutsu. Itachi explained this to Sasuke during his fight against Kabuto. Itachi: "Seems like you know a bit about Izanagi... It's called the perfect UCHIHA eye jutsu which has the power to change fate." Itachi used Izanami without Hashirama's cells, and actually said the two jutsus go hand-in-hand. If two user's fight with izanagi, izanami was the jutsu to nullify it's effects. Hashirama's cells only activates the jutsu at shorter periods, just like kotoamatsuki with shisui's eye.

[paradigm1977]

I disagree with all of you!!! Not about techniques or number of eyes. And sunju cells do matter.

Kakashi and Obito and nagato are not going blind for different reasons. You all think there are two factors. I say 3 factors (ok, some suggested the jutsu itself is a factor. I say no).

Eye, Body (symbolic for Senju DNA), and ..... the Brain!!!!

Why the brain? Because Tobirama called the sharingan a "symptom." The eye power is not just in the eye, but the chakra sprouting brain.

Obito- MS, Uchiha brain, senju DNA .... optimum combo. (other than EMS). Spam, with no closing of the eye or weardown. This is due to Senju DNA. No drawbacks (senju body) optimum power(eye+brain)

Danzo- sharingan's with senju DNA = limited weardown factor (only way to handle 7 eyes). Koto with 3 minites instead of 10 years recharge. "flawed izanagi" according to Obito, because he's not Uchiha (brain!).

Kakashi- MS only. Why doesn't he go blind? Because he only has the Uchiha eye, but not the chakra from the brain which is part of the power. This means his Kamui is weaker than Obito's. It means his eye isn't overloaded with brain power and won't lose light. Has no senju dna, so he can't spam and gets weardown.

Nagato- EMS/Rinnegan. EMS does not lose light. Rinnegan is most safely assumed to be the same since EMS is a lower level. Senju dna/body is replaced with related Uzumaki, allowing spam. But he has no Uchiha brain. So it is possible Madara might have more powerful Rinnegan tech's or Nagato's Uzumaki factor might add an unknown boost that surpasses this negative.

Originally Posted by scallanan

Izanagi and Izanami were one in the same jutsu. Itachi explained this to Sasuke during his fight against Kabuto. Itachi: "Seems like you know a bit about Izanagi... It's called the perfect UCHIHA eye jutsu which has the power to change fate." Itachi used Izanami without Hashirama's cells, and actually said the two jutsus go hand-in-hand. If two user's fight with izanagi, izanami was the jutsu to nullify it's effects. Hashirama's cells only activates the jutsu at shorter periods, just like kotoamatsuki with shisui's eye.

They've never been one in the same. That is a totally different meaning to hand in hand. And why I ornaged your use of each. Izanami was developed as the counter to Izanagi, so Uchiha would stop using it.

[morven1988]

I've been racking my brain trying to solve this issue all day. I've came up with two other ways to possibly solve this.

I think someone is behind tobi. I think someone trained him, he went from being a goof like naruto to a super villian in like a year. I know its a cartoon but even by fiction standards it's ridiculous.

[Harlequin]

Originally Posted by morven1988

I've been racking my brain trying to solve this issue all day. I've came up with two other ways to possibly solve this.

I think someone is behind tobi. I think someone trained him, he went from being a goof like naruto to a super villian in like a year. I know its a cartoon but even by fiction standards it's ridiculous.

Madara

Derp!

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

They've never been one in the same. That is a totally different meaning to hand in hand. And why I ornaged your use of each. Izanami was developed as the counter to Izanagi, so Uchiha would stop using it.

Ok, well it still stands that Izanagi is a pure Uchiha eye jutsu, as Itachi said and I quoted previously. I think I got the facts mixed up about izanagi and izanami itself, but it also stands that Itachi used Izanami without Hashirama's cells, meaning it is too an uchiha eye technique. Therefore both derive from the uchiha clan alone, and this is the point I was trying to make earlier

[Satsuki]

Originally Posted by gatekeeper8

Spoiler:

ok so i like alot of you have noticed obito is the biggest spammer of MS ever and has never lost his sight and the current theory is its due to hashiramas dna well i think that is not the case due to the fact kakashi has obitos other MS and has not got blind now the theory to that was because it was transplanted now i never under stood that to begin with so what i want to no is what is really goin on with obito is he like immune to the blindness effect or something i mean i dont think it has to do with his dna but his actual sharingan is the only people who have the blindness effect the ones who can awake susanoo because so far as we have seen they are the only ones who have been affected by this affect shisui was known around the world for his MS and altho we have no proof that he didint go blind we no that danzo could use his eye with out going blind also madaras brother was not known to be able to use susanoo and was the one of the brothers who did not go blind altho we do not no if he suffers blur vision so is this a trait that comes with the susanoo or is there some kind of special thing goin on with obito

Right half has the sharingan.

Right half has senju body parts.

No blindness, problem solved.

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by scallanan

Ok, well it still stands that Izanagi is a pure Uchiha eye jutsu, as Itachi said and I quoted previously. I think I got the facts mixed up about izanagi and izanami itself, but it also stands that Itachi used Izanami without Hashirama's cells, meaning it is too an uchiha eye technique. Therefore both derive from the uchiha clan alone, and this is the point I was trying to make earlier

The difference also being that you need senju cells for Izanagi, but not Izanami. So Itachi can't do Izanagi. That makes them different in exclusivity.

[DrKage]

No you don't. Itachi was saying that Izanami was developed as a way to stop a bunch of Uchiha from using Izanagi. And I doubt all of them had Senju cells.

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

The difference also being that you need senju cells for Izanagi, but not Izanami. So Itachi can't do Izanagi. That makes them different in exclusivity.

You don't need senju dna to use Iznagi. Did you not read Itachi's quote I wrote two posts ago?? I will put it down here again...

"Seems like you know a bit about Izanagi... It's called the perfect UCHIHA eye jutsu which has the power to change fate."

It is an Uchiha eye jutsu. *FULL STOP*

And like DrKage said, it was used throughout history by many Uchiha shinobi. None of them implanted senju cells into themselves. Also, I think it's not senju cells that speed up the regeneration of sharingan techniques, but Hashirama's. It's hashirama's dna that allowed Madara's sharingan to evolve into rinnegan, and it was hashirama's cells that allowed kotoamatsuki to be used frequently by danzo. Obito's spamming of his dojutsu is probably also down to the fact that he has HASHIRAMA' cells implanted in him. No evidence suggests it's senju dna that affects the sharingan.

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by scallanan

You don't need senju dna to use Iznagi. Did you not read Itachi's quote I wrote two posts ago?? I will put it down here again...

"Seems like you know a bit about Izanagi... It's called the perfect UCHIHA eye jutsu which has the power to change fate."

It is an Uchiha eye jutsu. *FULL STOP*

And like DrKage said, it was used throughout history by many Uchiha shinobi. None of them implanted senju cells into themselves. Also, I think it's not senju cells that speed up the regeneration of sharingan techniques, but Hashirama's. It's hashirama's dna that allowed Madara's sharingan to evolve into rinnegan, and it was hashirama's cells that allowed kotoamatsuki to be used frequently by danzo. Obito's spamming of his dojutsu is probably also down to the fact that he has HASHIRAMA' cells implanted in him. No evidence suggests it's senju dna that affects the sharingan.

Didn't see that post. But you're incorrect. Itachi never said what was required to use Izanagi. It's official from Tobi, and told to Konan as he's killing her. You need the power of the Uchiha and the Senju, the power of the sage of the six paths. So there's your evidence you said doesn't exist.

I swat your *FULL STOP* jutsu back at you with my kekkei genkai *THE HAND.*

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Didn't see that post. But you're incorrect. Itachi never said what was required to use Izanagi. It's official from Tobi, and told to Konan as he's killing her. You need the power of the Uchiha and the Senju, the power of the sage of the six paths. So there's your evidence you said doesn't exist.

I swat your *FULL STOP* jutsu back at you with my kekkei genkai *THE HAND.*

Hmmm, it seems you are correct, from what was told to Konan before she died. But looking at it, I thought something was wrong. You see, I think obito didn't reveal everything about it to Konan, and only gave her a brief description of it. I've had a look into it though, and it seems you need to have at least either Uchiha or Senju DNA along with one sharingan to perform Izanagi (which explains how so many Uchiha ninja used Izanagi in the past). But without having BOTH senju and uchiha dna, Izanagi would be incomplete (in other words, the length of time it can be active for is only one minute (as seen with Danzo, who had just senju dna and no uchiha dna (the eye doesn't count as it's dna)). If you still don't believe me, consider the fact that Obito had BOTH senju and uchiha dna, and was able to keep the jutsu active for a period of at least 5min during his fight with Konan. First, Obito used his Mangekyo to stay intangible for the first 5min of the explosions (as Konan explained was his limit). He then used Izanagi for the second half of the explosions, which lasted another 5min. He was only capable of keeping Izanagi active for that long because he had the full dna of the sage (uchiha and senju).

Now consider Itachi's quote I wrote previously. Itachi said that it was an Uchiha eye jutsu. Since it's a sharingan technique, it derives from the Uchiha clan. That means that all Uchiha's can use this technique, since they have both things necessary for performing it (one half of the sage's DNA, and a sharingan). By adding senju dna, you will gain access to it's complete form, and thus can use it for as long as Obito was using it for (and not the 1min limit).

I will swipe away your kekkei genkai with a kinjutsu!

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by scallanan

Hmmm, it seems you are correct, from what was told to Konan before she died. But looking at it, I thought something was wrong. You see, I think obito didn't reveal everything about it to Konan, and only gave her a brief description of it. I've had a look into it though, and it seems you need to have at least either Uchiha or Senju DNA along with one sharingan to perform Izanagi (which explains how so many Uchiha ninja used Izanagi in the past). But without having BOTH senju and uchiha dna, Izanagi would be incomplete (in other words, the length of time it can be active for is only one minute (as seen with Danzo, who had just senju dna and no uchiha dna (the eye doesn't count as it's dna)). If you still don't believe me, consider the fact that Obito had BOTH senju and uchiha dna, and was able to keep the jutsu active for a period of at least 5min during his fight with Konan. First, Obito used his Mangekyo to stay intangible for the first 5min of the explosions (as Konan explained was his limit). He then used Izanagi for the second half of the explosions, which lasted another 5min. He was only capable of keeping Izanagi active for that long because he had the full dna of the sage (uchiha and senju).

Now consider Itachi's quote I wrote previously. Itachi said that it was an Uchiha eye jutsu. Since it's a sharingan technique, it derives from the Uchiha clan. That means that all Uchiha's can use this technique, since they have both things necessary for performing it (one half of the sage's DNA, and a sharingan). By adding senju dna, you will gain access to it's complete form, and thus can use it for as long as Obito was using it for (and not the 1min limit).

I will swipe away your kekkei genkai with a kinjutsu!

Well, you need the sharingan of course! So it has to be from the clan with the eye. But Tobi still said the power of both. Itachi doesn't have the power of the senju. Danzo and Tobi did. Their body. And Danzo and Tobi had a sharingan. Tobi's is stronger, because he is Uchiha, which gives him the chakra sprouting brain (as covered in my theory).

Unless you explain Itachi's Senju power, you are directly disputing Tobi's explanation. He does lie sometimes, but this is a little too random. It's not like messing with konan with gave Nagato the eyes, or him messing with someone Sasuke.

Anyway that;'s the base. It's just that you have chosen to credit Itachi more, and take away from Tobi. That's all.

[scallanan]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Well, you need the sharingan of course! So it has to be from the clan with the eye. But Tobi still said the power of both. Itachi doesn't have the power of the senju. Danzo and Tobi did. Their body. And Danzo and Tobi had a sharingan. Tobi's is stronger, because he is Uchiha, which gives him the chakra sprouting brain (as covered in my theory).

This topic has a lot of debate doesn't it? It's true of course, that the two who have shown to use it, both have hashirama's cells implanted into them. Everything is telling me that what tobi said to konan is right, except for the fact that Izanagi was used by countless Uchiha shinobi in the past, as explained to Sasuke by Itachi! If two sharingan-wielders use izanagi on each other, then another sharingan wielder can use izanami to stop the impossible result from happening, and trapping them in a loop that can only be broken if they accept that their izanagi is going to fail. If this is the case, then it must mean that senju power isn't needed in order to perform it, but that Obito and Danzo used hashi's cells to lengthen it's effects. My previous reply explains it clearly why it all links to this.

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Unless you explain Itachi's Senju power, you are directly disputing Tobi's explanation. He does lie sometimes, but this is a little too random. It's not like messing with konan with gave Nagato the eyes, or him messing with someone Sasuke.

He lies frequently, using his lies to take advantage of people, as already seen. I suppose, telling konan lies before her death is pointless, but remember, we as readers can also be fooled. The lies might be aimed more at us, to throw our predictions off

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Anyway that;'s the base. It's just that you have chosen to credit Itachi more, and take away from Tobi. That's all.

Yes, I credit itachi's words more than obito's

[Maruko]

Guys, guys...chill.
Senju DNA.