Spoiler An thought on the Rinnegan/Woodstyle

[SilentBlade]

So thinking about all we've discussed, through genetics, through what sets of who's DNA at what splicing/mastery has to take place, we've kind of beat to death this idea that the Rinnegan is a DNA mutation or something inherited down the line by RS's son's descendant's, cousin's, uncle's former college roommate! There was also an interesting discussion on how the wood style and sharingan look eerily like the body and eye of the Juubi.

The problem is we are kicking this thing up and down the street with little to no progress nor agreement, and so I thought about this a while and looked at some of the chapters we saw the Rinnegan, the wood style and the Gedo. I also thought about the special chakra in which the Uzumaki clan is said to have, and came to a few conclusions here.

My first conclusion is that Madara himself did not unlock the Rinnegan, HE figured out that the sharingan was in fact the unrefined power of the Juubi that was passed on to his clansmen. What do I mean right? ok, so looking at Bee and Naruto side by side, we see an immediate difference in the chakra cloaks right? Bee and the eight tails are friends yet he still looks like Naruto did when Kurama was trying to take him over and was not "tamed." The special chakra characteristics the Uzumaki have are the abilities to purify the Bijuu's chakra as long as they are the exceptional clansmen (like all clans there are ordinary and extraordinary). So back to my point, Madara knew this, so he sought out someone he recognized that ability in, and with that he gave his eyes to Nagato. Nagato did not have any Bijuu to suppress, and his chakra was able to purify the inherent Juubi chakra in the Shringan, turning it from the sharingan looking eye to the Rinnegan.

I would apply that same thought process to the Woodstyle, based on the thought that when Naruto started "purifying" Kurama's chakra, we saw Yamato's totems beginning to blossom into life, becoming trees and sprouting leaves, almost as thought the "dead wood" was turning back to its natural state and reacting to Naruto. Thus the idea, the more bijuu chakra Naruto takes on and purifies the more he will change because his chakra and Kurama's chakra stop existing as two separate chakra's and start to become one coherent chakra. As we saw in the last chapter, when Naruto started handing out the Bijuu chakra, it boosted rather than burned or what not to to the people he gave it to, I believe someone in one frame couldn't tell the difference as to whether it was Naruto's chakra or Kurama's.

I would go one step further then and state that, at some point Naruto will receive sasuke's eyes, I cannot see Kishi letting Sasuke go completely unrepentant through the series. As for the body, I am not quite sure! I do wonder if it is inherent and dormant somewhere, and some conversation with Kurama will unveil this.

Edit: one final thought, the reason the MS makes one go blind isn't because of the power, but I would argue that the MS uses the inherent Juubi chakra, and once its gone its gone! The reason sharingan users don't go blind is because it uses significantly less, by unlocking the next level, its like poking a bigger hole in the bucket! Why does the EMS not make you blind? at this point you've gone down the path of what would be considered evil, letting the Juubi essentially inhabit you in some terms, thus while you don't go blind, you slowly go mad!

[kalmeast]

very interesting... I see some really good points on here... i will have to eat a big lunch first then we could discuss this in details...i had a theory long ago with 3vL J3st3r about something similar... good one pal...

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

very interesting... I see some really good points on here... i will have to eat a big lunch first then we could discuss this in details...i had a theory long ago with 3vL J3st3r about something similar... good one pal...

Thanks! I wasn't sure if it was just you or you and Evil about the body and eyes of the Juubi being what the son's inherited, But I am still not sure where the Uzumaki fit in. I still believe that perhaps it was the younger son that inherited this, and eventually turned, leaving the Uzumaki to be related to the elder son, (Or vice versa, not sure how it works yet).

[slyfoxx]

alright my new theory the sage was and uzamaki and his original jutsus were seal and sage mode. He used these to seal the juubi in hisself. the juubi gave him the hybid rinny/sharigan and enhanced his body. what if they literally took these gift from him like the older son was giving his eyes and the younger son was giving dna to enhance his body or something.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by slyfoxx

alright my new theory the sage was and uzamaki and his original jutsus were seal and sage mode. He used these to seal the juubi in hisself. the juubi gave him the hybid rinny/sharigan and enhanced his body. what if they literally took these gift from him like the older son was giving his eyes and the younger son was giving dna to enhance his body or something.

Well thats the thought process..I mean we observe the Juubi's body is made of wood of sorts, and we see the Sharingan is the Juubi's eye! With that said, I would argue that what we are seeing in the Sharingan and the wood style is the unrefined power of the Juubi! The reason (perhaps) that it is so detrimental to the users of the Sharingan to use it so much or to go to the EMS, would be that the power of the Juubi chakra slowly erodes the chakra network and makes one go blind! The EMS is just like cranking it up significantly!

Recall the conversation when Yamato takes Naruto and Sakura on their first mission to the bridge, and Yamato comments (to himself I think) that he is surprised that the Kyuubi Chakra isn't essentially killing Naruto from the inside out, like its burning him or something like that), however we see EMS and MS users like Kakashi and Itachi who are able to keep themselves from going mad, and every time they use that eye they essentially are killing themselves from what has to be apparently toxic chakra. I mean Itachi has been DYING and he isn't that old, the EMS is the only thing that seams to keep pushing him to the brink! and of course we see Kakashi is pretty much incapacitated when he uses it. Sasuke has been driven to the brink of madness, we have no idea how long he will be able to keep it up, it is as though the malicious nature of the Juubi has made its way into his consciousness because he is really weak in terms of his will! it would explain his change in personality, and that can be said about Obito also. Madara I can't comment to much on because we really don't know Madara all that well, but I would say somthing similar here in terms of him killing the brother he loved.

Also if we consider the SHaringan, its inherently a destructive power! The same thing can be said about the wood style, one controls Bijuu and one suppresses them...but why? Yamato and Madara/Tobi were not inherently more powerful than the Kyuubi, with that said, the Juubi is where the other Bijuu chakra is stored and suppressed...they eyes control it and the body can hold the power...thus the Uchiha eyes can control the Bijuu, and the Senju wood style can suppress it!

With the Rinnegan being what it is, it purifies the Shringan, it makes it so the unrefined power of the Juubi becomes the Rinnegan, and it doesn't erode those chakra networks! This grants new powers that the sage likely had in terms of things we probably aren't completely privy to yet! The woodstyle probably changes to something that creates instead of destroys, as we saw how Yamato's wood style reacted to Naruto's REFINED Kyuubi chakra, it took that woodstyle and almost looked more like Naruto was creating life in the the totems.

[slyfoxx]

all your theories are plausible and use facts if only kishi thought this deep and stuck to his story and not created so many plotholes it wouldnt be so nerve racking. Its time we get the history of the juubi and sosp from the tablet.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

My first conclusion is that Madara himself did not unlock the Rinnegan, HE figured out that the sharingan was in fact the unrefined power of the Juubi that was passed on to his clansmen. What do I mean right? ok, so looking at Bee and Naruto side by side, we see an immediate difference in the chakra cloaks right? Bee and the eight tails are friends yet he still looks like Naruto did when Kurama was trying to take him over and was not "tamed." The special chakra characteristics the Uzumaki have are the abilities to purify the Bijuu's chakra as long as they are the exceptional clansmen (like all clans there are ordinary and extraordinary). So back to my point, Madara knew this, so he sought out someone he recognized that ability in, and with that he gave his eyes to Nagato. Nagato did not have any Bijuu to suppress, and his chakra was able to purify the inherent Juubi chakra in the Shringan, turning it from the sharingan looking eye to the Rinnegan.

In Chap 606. Madara said...

I was able to get my hands on Hashirama Senju cells, but even after transplanting them in my wounds nothing happened in the beginning
But when my life span was almost over.. I awakened the Rinnegan.

Speculating Nagato awakening the rinnegan made a lot of sense too because hes also from senju lineage and it also answers the question why Madara chose Nagato to transplant his EMS to but I am more inclined to believe with what I quoted because it adds everything up.

My point is.. in chap 606, we clearly see the Old Madara with rinnegan. Isnt this a confirmed fact that Madara is the one who awakened the rinnegan not Nagato?

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

In Chap 606. Madara said...

Speculating Nagato awakening the rinnegan made a lot of sense too because hes also from senju lineage and it also answers the question why Madara chose Nagato to transplant his EMS to but I am more inclined to believe with what I quoted because it adds everything up.

My point is.. in chap 606, we clearly see the Old Madara with rinnegan. Isnt this a confirmed fact that Madara is the one who awakened the rinnegan not Nagato?

You know I actually went back to look at this, there is a glimpse of it, however its only 1, (the other eye is covered). But its not about the Senju lineage at all, its more about a chakra that is able to purify the Juubi's chakra and essentially make it useful and non-toxic.

The Rinnegan, the transfer to Nagato...it still doesn't add up to me, still never properly explained why/how that happened. Like it was some sort of secret surgery that made no sense to anyone. However he says he got it at the end of his life, and instead of seeking out a Senju (which he assumed their dna would awaken it) he sought out an Uzumaki. It makes me wonder if he THOUGHT Nagato was actually a Senju at the start, and more importantly it makes me wonder if he used some of THEIR DNA, to awaken it at the end of his life, meaning the actual Hashirama Senju DNA didn't work, but his experiments continued forward. If we are talking end of his life, we are talking substantially after the Senju all but disappear from the village. That said the only chakra/DNA he had to work with would have been Uzumaki, which would then somehow create a relationship with Nagato and Madara in some sense (it says they were friends at some point). Somehow Madara figured out how to refine that chakra, or control it, allowing (perhaps) his own chakra to flow and awaken his eyes...

Continuing down that line of logic, we could take things a step further and state that Nagato was able to continuously sustain the Rinnegan, never having to shut it off (so to speak) and could use the powers as he saw fit. It makes me wonder if the curse on both the Senju and Uchiha is the power of the Juubi which is inherently uncontrollable except by one so exceptional. It makes me wonder if Rinnegan and Woodstyles are not so much tied to the two lineages as they are a curse to them, to give them power, however without the proper ability to refine that power they cannot awaken their dormant strength. Stuff like this makes me still believe that the Rinnegan is perhaps still a possibility for Naruto, when he takes Sasuke's hate, it makes me believe in the end Sasuke will have to do something redeeming, and perhaps that will be it!

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

In Chap 606. Madara said...

Speculating Nagato awakening the rinnegan made a lot of sense too because hes also from senju lineage and it also answers the question why Madara chose Nagato to transplant his EMS to but I am more inclined to believe with what I quoted because it adds everything up.

My point is.. in chap 606, we clearly see the Old Madara with rinnegan. Isnt this a confirmed fact that Madara is the one who awakened the rinnegan not Nagato?

Madara did awaken it.
He chose Nagato because Uzumaki are kinda Senju-ish and he wouldn't pass out from using it.
You see how Kakashi faints after using normal Sharingan because he's a non-Uchiha.
Nagato has strong body and huge chakra pool like every Uzumaki and he's capable of enduring the Rinnegan.

[SilentBlade]

Its not even that, it took until the END of his life to awaken it, it makes me wonder if there was something more to consider aside from the Senju DNA. Its almost as if it took him that long to realize that it wasn't Senju DNA he should have been using all along, but more that the Uzumaki DNA is the only DNA that can purify that power! That said, we can argue that perhaps what ended up awakening his power was DNA he acquired from an Uzumaki later in life..

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

Its not even that, it took until the END of his life to awaken it, it makes me wonder if there was something more to consider aside from the Senju DNA. Its almost as if it took him that long to realize that it wasn't Senju DNA he should have been using all along, but more that the Uzumaki DNA is the only DNA that can purify that power! That said, we can argue that perhaps what ended up awakening his power was DNA he acquired from an Uzumaki later in life..

You know how every stage of Uchiha kekkei genkai has a requirement to unlock it?
Sharingan - In battle/ Stressful situation/ No way out etc.
Mangekyou - HUGE emotional pain (Easy to do it by killing your best friend)
Eternal - Take your brothers eyes (It's even worse to kill your kinsmen than friends)
Rinnegan- ????

Madara probably read the tablet with EMS and he found out about the Rinnegan.
Every stage of Sharingan reads the tablet in a clearer way.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Maruko

Madara did awaken it.
He chose Nagato because Uzumaki are kinda Senju-ish and he wouldn't pass out from using it.
You see how Kakashi faints after using normal Sharingan because he's a non-Uchiha.
Nagato has strong body and huge chakra pool like every Uzumaki and he's capable of enduring the Rinnegan.

Although he became emaciated after summoning the mazo unlike Obito and Madara who can summon and use mazo without a drawback.

@Silent
That's exactly my point.. The fact that it was shown that the Old Madara had rinnegan before dying is a valid proof to say that Madara unlocked the rinnegan not Nagato. If he used genetics recombination of Senju, Uzumaki and Uchiha to awaken rinnegan is another story and pure speculations as of now. I mean it still possible to happen and its not bad story telling if Uzumaki's can unlock rinnegan.

but you know if we think about it. It makes me wonder why Madara wasnt able to find that out as soon as he read the Rikudo's tablet that Uzumaki can play a big part of awakening the rinnegan.

If we talk about consistency and accuracy of that tablet, everything written there is proven accurate and true so there's no way Madara would have missed the part that Uzumaki's DNA is required to awaken rinnegan.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Although he became emaciated after summoning the mazo unlike Obito and Madara who can summon and use mazo without a drawback.

@Silent
That's exactly my point.. The fact that it was shown that the Old Madara had rinnegan before dying is a valid proof to say that Madara unlocked the rinnegan not Nagato. If he used genetics recombination of Senju, Uzumaki and Uchiha to awaken rinnegan is another story and pure speculations as of now. I mean it still possible to happen and its not bad story telling if Uzumaki's can unlock rinnegan.

but you know if we think about it. It makes me wonder why Madara wasnt able to find that out as soon as he read the Rikudo's tablet that Uzumaki can play a big part of awakening the rinnegan.

If we talk about consistency and accuracy of that tablet, everything written there is proven accurate and true so there's no way Madara would have missed the part that Uzumaki's DNA is required to awaken rinnegan.

The only other question I would still have would be whether the Rinnegan was actually somthing that is inherent in all Uchiha, Uzumaki, and Senju? Think about how much it takes to suppress the malicious chakra that comes from any Bijuu, then consider that the Sharingan and woodstyles are actually based in Bijuu chakra, meaning that (like the gold and silver brothers), without proper purification or mastery, none of them would be able to access their own inherent power! thus they are using the Bijuu chakra.

If we say that Madara did awaken the Rinnegan ( I mean we DO have a situation where he secretly implanted his eyes in a child we see no actually connection to, so he could have had Nagato awaken them and then taken them back...its all absurd really at this point with that) he must have figured out a way to deal with the Juubi chakra right? So we have him connected to the Gedo, with him connected to the Gedo, perhaps the Gedo is his purification source! Its how he survives the toxic nature of the Sharingan and use of it!

I still think the story of the sages eyes and body being bequest to his sons are more about the eyes and bodily powers of the Juubi itself being given to his sons. The Uchiha and Senju make up the Juubi, oddly the combination should bring death! We don't know a lot about the Uzumaki, but we know that they can effectively use the Rinnegan and purify Bijuu chakra to a point that they can transfer it to others for use.

[Maruko]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

Although he became emaciated after summoning the mazo unlike Obito and Madara who can summon and use mazo without a drawback.

@Silent
That's exactly my point.. The fact that it was shown that the Old Madara had rinnegan before dying is a valid proof to say that Madara unlocked the rinnegan not Nagato. If he used genetics recombination of Senju, Uzumaki and Uchiha to awaken rinnegan is another story and pure speculations as of now. I mean it still possible to happen and its not bad story telling if Uzumaki's can unlock rinnegan.

but you know if we think about it. It makes me wonder why Madara wasnt able to find that out as soon as he read the Rikudo's tablet that Uzumaki can play a big part of awakening the rinnegan.

If we talk about consistency and accuracy of that tablet, everything written there is proven accurate and true so there's no way Madara would have missed the part that Uzumaki's DNA is required to awaken rinnegan.

I think he did in on purpose.
Yahiko's death made him no longer care about his own life, but creating peace.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Maruko

I think he did in on purpose.
Yahiko's death made him no longer care about his own life, but creating peace.

He did that on purpose? I see.. however, the question still remain the same.. Why Nagato became emaciated after using the gedo? He didnt look like that prior to summoning it. What caused it? If we both agree that Madara is the one who awakened the rinnegan then this would make Nagato the non-natural user of the rinnegan right? thus it'd only make sense that he should've also suffered a draw back for using rinnegan powers. Uzumakis have the capability to exceptionaly live a long life but the gedo and rinnegan shortened his life span and that is the draw back.

@Silent

Hmmm.. Naruto purifying chakra.. Not quite sure about it but i'll give you that. The real question here is.. is Naruto really purifying Kurama's chakra? I guess the answer is he purified Kurama's hatred not the chakra.. Do you remember the chakra and mind explanation by the frogs? If so, at first what he did is he separated Kurama's chakra from its mind. This is where Naruto's chakra starts becoming "non toxic" because its no longer carrying the hatred that consumes people and causes them to transform to miniature Kyubi like what happened to the Kin-Gin bros.

Now Naruto was able to distribute chakra to anyone because that chakra that he is giving out is no longer hatred containing chakra. It is now a "user friendly" chakra.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Rikudo Sage

He did that on purpose? I see.. however, the question still remain the same.. Why Nagato became emaciated after using the gedo? He didnt look like that prior to summoning it. What caused it? If we both agree that Madara is the one who awakened the rinnegan then this would make Nagato the non-natural user of the rinnegan right? thus it'd only make sense that he should've also suffered a draw back for using rinnegan powers. Uzumakis have the capability to exceptionaly live a long life but the gedo and rinnegan shortened his life span and that is the draw back.

@Silent

Hmmm.. Naruto purifying chakra.. Not quite sure about it but i'll give you that. The real question here is.. is Naruto really purifying Kurama's chakra? I guess the answer is he purified Kurama's hatred not the chakra.. Do you remember the chakra and mind explanation by the frogs? If so, at first what he did is he separated Kurama's chakra from its mind. This is where Naruto's chakra starts becoming "non toxic" because its no longer carrying the hatred that consumes people and causes them to transform to miniature Kyubi like what happened to the Kin-Gin bros.

Now Naruto was able to distribute chakra to anyone because that chakra that he is giving out is no longer hatred containing chakra. It is now a "user friendly" chakra.

I would say he is purifying the chakra! I say that because all the Bijuu chakra is the same, it came from the Juubi! If you look at Bee in the tailed beast mode similar to Naruto, he looks like Naruto did when he lost control of Kurama! We have yet to uncover what it is that makes the Uzumaki chakra "special" but I would bet it has something to do with that! and on top of that he is able to manipulate it to fit other people (from what we saw in recent chapters). The eight tails does not have hate either anymore, remember that, but that chakra cloak still looks the same, its impure chakra, which probably means it has its limitations in what it can do.

Going off of what Maruko said, if you think about what happened when Nagato lost control, the Gedo came out and pretty much linked into Nagato, instead of Nagato controlling the gedo with his power, the gedo now controlled Nagato, hatred was not what came out of Nagato, and one could argue that it was made more evident because those eyes (once belonging to Madara) were still full of Juubi chakra! Even if his chakra purified it, I would state that to make a contract with the Juubi is like making a deal with the devil, you pay a high price for power, and lose yourself! That said, it wasn't until the end where Nagato regains control of himself enough to make one last act against the Juubi before the toxic exposure to that unpurified chakra (which was no longer purified due to him losing his way) killed him!