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View Poll Results: Kurenai vs Tayuya
Kurenai 10 47.62%
Tayuya 11 52.38%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-17-2012, 02:55 PM   #161
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Ight I'm going to stop debating you on her genjutsu since Tayuya would not make it into CS2 anyway.

By the time she
-takes out her flute
-summons the doki
-brags about her music
-plays her flute
-the reaction time it takes for the doki to respond to the sound

Kureani would have gotten closer then used genjutsu and dissapeared
very true there is no short cut for toyuya,
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #162
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
Ight I'm going to stop debating you on her genjutsu since Tayuya would not make it into CS2 anyway.

By the time she
-takes out her flute
-summons the doki
-brags about her music
-plays her flute
-the reaction time it takes for the doki to respond to the sound

Kureani would have gotten closer then used genjutsu and dissapeared

All wrong.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #163
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Ok everyone remember this is a 50 meter battle while it can be argued that it would take maybe 4 seconds for tayuya to get her summons to react to her flute has kurenai ever shown speed feats to close such a distance in a short amount of time.

Next in the manga Kurenai's only weapon she has ever used is a kunai.

Next saying Kurenai dodged itachi is not a good example primarily because he wasn't using his true speed when he attack with the the kunai which was proven by the fact that she couldn't react after he appeared behind her after kicking her in the water.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #164
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heji Oka View Post
Ok everyone remember this is a 50 meter battle
how do you know it is 50m?
while it can be argued that it would take maybe 4 seconds for tayuya to get her summons to react to her flute has kurenai ever shown speed feats to close such a distance in a short amount of time.
when you factor in Tayuya's smack talk and the her playing the flute and the time for the doki to react to the sound then ....
YES YES YES
Kureani has enough time. ESPECIALLY in the forest! Kureani is jumping not just running. Jumping from tree to tree is faster than just running.
That is why Saskue Retrival Squad tree hopped instead of running

Next in the manga Kurenai's only weapon she has ever used is a kunai.
EXACTLY!!
If Kurenai charages with a kunai then Tayuya will go in for close combat as well with her flute. This is bad for Tayuya since she is getting into a close up fight and now kurenai is close enough to use genjtusu or pressure tayuya with her kunai

Next saying Kurenai dodged itachi is not a good example primarily because he wasn't using his true speed when he attack with the the kunai which was proven by the fact that she couldn't react after he appeared behind her after kicking her in the water.
true.....
but she still dodged it and 50m is not far for a ninja in a forest
@Vivi
-care to be a bit more detailed in why I am wrong? This is VERY poor debating on your part. How am I wrong.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:45 PM   #165
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Just look at previous posts.Everything has been said it's just you being so ignorant.
heck you even negged my post in Young Obito vs Young Naruto cause I was merely requesting more info on which versions they are.

And I said it before as well, I purposely don't go into detail because no matter what one says to you it's like responding to a brick wall.
And I can guarantee you I'm not the only one who thinks so.
There is no point it debating with you, you can ask anyone else here, I'm only to you like this when it comes to debating.
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Last edited by Vivi; 12-17-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:18 PM   #166
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

OK I'm going to put it this way because no matter how much logic I give you, you just won't believe it, because you just don't want to. I'm sorry, you're friend and all which is why I usually try avoid saying this, but you don't believe it simply because you do not want to be wrong. you know that by default we go back the manga, you know that by default if a distance has not been set that it's 50 meters.

Kurenai had one fight in the entire manga and those feats don't give her anything that would help her defeat Tayuya over all. Tayuya just has more going for her than Kurenai and I actually like Kurenai a lot more than Tayuya, but by logic and feat Kurenai would not win period.

Basically all Kurenai has to her name is Genjutsu hype that we can't really use, slow reaction feats slow genjutsu activation time and breaking out of her own genjutsu NOT ITACHI'S her own, look it up he used Genjutsu reversal which is putting the casters genjutsu back on them. By manga feat Kurenai only has one move, so basically you're trying to make one slice of bread last for a year on this one.

I'm sorry, but just wouldn't win and if you choose not to see that then that's on you.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:32 PM   #167
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga View Post
OK I'm going to put it this way because no matter how much logic I give you, you just won't believe it, because you just don't want to. I'm sorry, you're friend and all which is why I usually try avoid saying this, but you don't believe it simply because you do not want to be wrong.
Wow if you were REALLY a friend you would know I could care less if I am right or not. i admitted I was wrong before but you have just not given any proof. ALl you have debated is genjutsu and she can only use genjutsu in CS2 which Tayuya would not blitz into soooo what about Tayuya in base or CS1?? You have not debated anything about that. Most of your comments were off-cannon. You use false arguments about sound genjutsu that you have no proof to back up. You have not convicned anyone. You are not debating well enough to convince me or anyone else to prove yourself right.
you know that by default we go back the manga, you know that by default if a distance has not been set that it's 50 meters.
DO NOT TELL ME WHAT I KNOW
I honeslty thought it was 100ft by default

Kurenai had one fight in the entire manga and those feats don't give her anything that would help her defeat Tayuya over all. Tayuya just has more going for her than Kurenai and I actually like Kurenai a lot more than Tayuya, but by logic and feat Kurenai would not win period.
WHAT LOGIC?? you have not given anything. young Obito (the one who fought Minato ) has less feats than young kakashi but young obito would win so what is your point? Ino has more feats and has been in more battles than Hinata but Hinata>>Ino
Tayuya has also just been in ONE battle so what is your point?

Basically all Kurenai has to her name is Genjutsu hype that we can't really use, slow reaction feats slow genjutsu activation time and breaking out of her own genjutsu NOT ITACHI'S her own, look it up he used Genjutsu reversal which is putting the casters genjutsu back on them. By manga feat Kurenai only has one move, so basically you're trying to make one slice of bread last for a year on this one.
Kurenai broke out of genjutsu and tayuya has not shown the ability to THAT IS THAT THOSE ARE THE FACTS

I'm sorry, but just wouldn't win and if you choose not to see that then that's on you.
That is your
Spoiler:
(WRONG)
opinon that you have not proved to be true
@ Vivi
-what has been ignorant? I have just been using facts
-I negged reped you in that page/thread but I was talking about your last post on this page saying what I said was "all wrong" when you give no evidence that it is false
-you have only ASSUMED in your debating. You made no effort to counter what I said you just say it is wrong which is why I down repped you. If you brought up a VALID point I would listen instead of your ASSUMPTIONS

just try me ONE LAST TIME! How does Tayuya win?
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Tell me
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:46 PM   #168
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

@Prince
Actually I have given you plenty of facts, even after the off-canon stuff was taken out and this happens often. I know when you do or do not know things because I sit here and watch you, people will tell you think 1000 times over and prove you that is is a fact and you will acknowledge that is a fact, but then you get on to another thread you will pretend as if no one has ever explained this fact to you.

For example people constantly have to tell you that Neji's rotation is a dome, they constantly have to tell you that gentle fist does not need a direct hit to do damage.

You will sit there and defend Danzo on one thread by saying Koto does not need prep and then on the next if you're debating against him say that it takes a lot of prep.

I tell you what you know because I've witnessed what you know and if I've posted on the threads and not just read them I will gladly go back and show you when you did all of these things.

If I was NOT your friend then when people PM telling me and I quote "you're friend is and idiot" and so on then I would not defend you. when you ask me to do stuff even when it annoys me I would not do it. I wouldn't even talk to you if I wasn't your friend.

This is my first time telling you this and I avoided telling you this before, because I was your friend and I didn't want to hurt your feelings or upset you, even though it annoys the hell out of me sometimes. There have been times on this forum that I will be the only one that has your back, when no one else believe you I'll at least listen to you and give you the benefit of the doubt......but I'm not truly your friend right?

You know what, later, I'm done arguing on this thread for right now.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #169
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga View Post
@Prince
Actually I have given you plenty of facts, even after the off-canon stuff was taken out and this happens often. I know when you do or do not know things because I sit here and watch you, people will tell you think 1000 times over and prove you that is is a fact and you will acknowledge that is a fact, but then you get on to another thread you will pretend as if no one has ever explained this fact to you.
???huh????
For example people constantly have to tell you that Neji's rotation is a dome, they constantly have to tell you that gentle fist does not need a direct hit to do damage.
i honestly did not understand it. It took me a while to understand why fire ball Jutsu did not work. I also Agree that the gentle fist does not need direct damage. But the thing about rotation is when a stronger attack conceits it what happens?
You will sit there and defend Danzo on one thread by saying Koto does not need prep and then on the next if you're debating against him say that it takes a lot of prep.
if Danzo did not use it already in a day than it does not need prep. When did I give 2 different opinions?

I tell you what you know because I've witnessed what you know and if I've posted on the threads and not just read them I will gladly go back and show you when you did all of these things.
[B] please I would love to see my mistakes and admit to them [B]

If I was NOT your friend then when people PM telling me and I quote "you're friend is and idiot" and so on then I would not defend you. when you ask me to do stuff even when it annoys me I would not do it. I wouldn't even talk to you if I wasn't your friend.
yeah that was TOTTALLY mY fault that cam out sooo wrong. I did not get to read what I said cuz I had to leave. I am so sorry. People sometimes get the idea that I don't like to say I am wrong but I have done it on more than one occasion

This is my first time telling you this and I avoided telling you this before, because I was your friend and I didn't want to hurt your feelings or upset you, even though it annoys the hell out of me sometimes. There have been times on this forum that I will be the only one that has your back, when no one else believe you I'll at least listen to you and give you the benefit of the doubt......but I'm not truly your friend right?

You know what, later, I'm done arguing on this thread for right now.
Again so sorry
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:17 PM   #170
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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Originally Posted by BMC1994 View Post
Rank does not matter ex. Naruto = genin > Tsunade = Kage

If you want an part 1 ex. Naruto = Genin > Iruka = Chuunin

Gaara = Not an jonin > Pretty much all pts jonins.

Temari = Genin > Kurenai.

etc etc etc

And you saying almost every genjutsu can be countered doesnt work in kurenais favor as thats all she uses. Hence everything she does can be countered to / ofcourse according to you/
Every example you named had established reasons why each character wasnt in there proper rank. Furthermore two highly fatigued special ranked jonin almost defeated all four in c2. The only reason they lost was because they got ambushed and was tired.

Temari would get blitzed also. Name one genin in part 1 keeping up with a jonin. As a matter of fact name one genin or Chunin defeating a jonin in Naruto period. Naruto or Sasuke doesn't count.

Yes all genjutsu cam be countered. Doesn't mean easily though. Kurenai was countered easily by Itachi. The strongest genjutsu user in the series. Plus he had the sharigan. It is all about who is more skilled. Naruto was reversing Itachi's genjutsu. But Itachi being the more skilled individual kept the genjutsu going. That being said a jonin in general is the established more skilled individual.

Oh just thought of a perfect example to illustrate my point. Obito and kakasgu went up against a full fledged jonin. Kakashi was a fresh jonin and Obito a seasoned chunin could barely keep up. Said jonin had a basic arsenal. K11 part 1 and the sound 4 barely qualify as decent shinobi by Naruto standards.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:16 AM   #171
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Well PoP as far as far as i know by the rules since the OP didn't specify the distance it falls to default which I believe is 50 meters.

Actually when you read the chapter the one who did most of the talking was shikimaru tayuya would stops talking for the most part once she starts playing the flute.
Next how do you know Kurenai can close that distance, has she shown anywhere in the manga where she could? It's one thing to speculate on what she may be able to do but it's another to prove it, show proof of kurenai at anytime being able to pull of this feat. Just because naruto and friends move fast through trees doesn't mean she can, that is like saying because naruto can beat pain that sakura can beat pain under the same conditions.

Next unlike Tayuya who has shown some taijutsu feats kurenai has none so how is it that kurenai pressure her, next kurenai's gejutsu requires her to make hand signs and then stand still for a moment I have to assume that if she is smart she wouldn't try this so close since it would leave her open to attack.

yes she dodged itachis kunai but only because he didn't think she would get out of the genjutsu, the reason you can't use that as a speed and react feat is because after dodging the kunai she couldn't dodge anything else.

It all sounds like good logic and theory the problem is there is no proof supporting this for kurenai, say that it is common for jonin to do this or that does not mean it is something she can do the only way to help her is to find proof that she can pull off any of what you are saying, until then tayuya wins.

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:07 AM   #172
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heji Oka View Post
Well PoP as far as far as i know by the rules since the OP didn't specify the distance it falls to default which I believe is 50 meters.
agreed
Actually when you read the chapter the one who did most of the talking was shikimaru tayuya would stops talking for the most part once she starts playing the flute.
TAYUYA talks a lot as well. She brags about her flute and she tells the name of her song... I doubt she would insult Kurenai like she ususally does.. but she usually calls her opponenets names.
Next how do you know Kurenai can close that distance, has she shown anywhere in the manga where she could? It's one thing to speculate on what she may be able to do but it's another to prove it, show proof of kurenai at anytime being able to pull of this feat. Just because naruto and friends move fast through trees doesn't mean she can, that is like saying because naruto can beat pain that sakura can beat pain under the same conditions.
do you know how SHORT 50m is? Kurenai is a ninja and above natrual human level. My friend who is on JV track can run 50m under 10 sec. I can run it in 7 sec and the world record is 5 sec. SO it would not take that long and Kurenai can close the distance while making hand seals.

Next unlike Tayuya who has shown some taijutsu feats kurenai has none so how is it that kurenai pressure her, next kurenai's gejutsu requires her to make hand signs and then stand still for a moment I have to assume that if she is smart she wouldn't try this so close since it would leave her open to attack.
what taijutus feats? the only thing she did was clash her flute with Shiakamra'us kunai. That is not taijutsu. Tayuya is not good at close up fighting. Kurenai has better feats. SHe dodged a kunai swipe from itachi and endured a kick to the face. Kurenai instantly made her handseals in ONE PANEL!!! It does not take long. And she dissaperead within page. Is Tayuya fast enough to summong her doki to attack? It is too risky for Tayuya to charge Kurenai. It is genjutsu afterall so Tayuya may think she is imagining Kureani is dissaperaing

yes she dodged itachis kunai but only because he didn't think she would get out of the genjutsu, the reason you can use that as a speed and react feat is because after dodging the kunai she couldn't dodge anything else.
so it is OOC for Kurenai to get into close combat. Also that is a feat. Kurenai instnatnly realized the genjutus was reveresed and kept calm in time to release it and respond to an attack. I believe she also had time to guard herself from Itachi's attack as well. If not feel free to prove me wrong.

It all sounds like good logic and theory the problem is there is no proof supporting this for kurenai, say that it is common for jonin to do this or that does not mean it is something she can do the only way to help her is to find proof that she can pull off any of what you are saying, until then tayuya wins.
I gave you proof above. 50m is a VERy short distance and it's easy to close on it. The genjutsu does not take THAT lon

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Old 12-18-2012, 10:12 AM   #173
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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I gave you proof above. 50m is a VERy short distance and it's easy to close on it. The genjutsu does not take THAT lon
While you may wish to use real world logic this is not the real world while yes it can with logic be said she can close that distance. But by the same logic you and I also know that people who are in above average shape in our world can't run 50 meters in the times you posted. So if you really want to apply this logic it still does not help kurenai's case whatsoever.

Next kurenai has no taijutsu feats only that she can block, show me where she is doing taijutsu of any kind then you have an argument.

Next everything you say that she would do you can't prove anywhere in the manga. You say she would close the distance but how do you know is it in character for her to close the distance between her and her opponent

is it in character for her to use genjutsu when she has no partner present

Is it in character for her to engage in close combat?

Is it in character for her to charge in when she doesn't know her opponents abilities or if they summon a creature in front of her?

Do you know if she would take advantage of the fact tayuya trash talks or would she stand there and let her finish like how all other characters in the manga do with their opponents when they talk.

Do you know how kurenai would react to tayuyas sound base genjutsu or to her curse mark level 2?

Do you know how she would react in a 3 on one situation with the doki or how to deal with them stealing her chakra once pandemonium is activated?

It's one thing to say how you would react but this is not you it's kurenai you have to prove how she would react in these situations supported by the manga until then tayuya still wins.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #174
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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Originally Posted by Heji Oka View Post
While you may wish to use real world logic this is not the real world while yes it can with logic be said she can close that distance. But by the same logic you and I also know that people who are in above average shape in our world can't run 50 meters in the times you posted. So if you really want to apply this logic it still does not help kurenai's case whatsoever.
SO HOW LONG do you think it would take for Kureani to get close enough to use genjutsu

Next kurenai has no taijutsu feats only that she can block, show me where she is doing taijutsu of any kind then you have an argument.
she does not need any. Tayuya has no taijutsu feats either

Next everything you say that she would do you can't prove anywhere in the manga. You say she would close the distance but how do you know is it in character for her to close the distance between her and her opponent
she has to close the distance if she wants to use genjutsu. She uses genjutsu off the bat. And with 50m that is close enough to use genjutsu off the bat

is it in character for her to use genjutsu when she has no partner present
no proof but it is her only fighting feat

Is it in character for her to engage in close combat?
no she hates it

Is it in character for her to charge in when she doesn't know her opponents abilities or if they summon a creature in front of her?
with 50m that is close enough to use gnejutsu. Also by her clothing she would know she is a Oro slave and a threat

Do you know if she would take advantage of the fact tayuya trash talks or would she stand there and let her finish like how all other characters in the manga do with their opponents when they talk.
Kisame talked trashed as well and in the they both stand still so ill give you that one. She would stay still as well.

Do you know how kurenai would react to tayuyas sound base genjutsu or to her curse mark level 2?
she would bite her lip to break out of genjutsu
and she would not be in fear of the demon girl when she fought a sharkish Kisame and the Powerful Itachi

Do you know how she would react in a 3 on one situation with the doki or how to deal with them stealing her chakra once pandemonium is activated?she would have already captured tayuya in genjutsu at that time cuz the doki do not respond to the sound right away


It's one thing to say how you would react but this is not you it's kurenai you have to prove how she would react in these situations supported by the manga until then tayuya still wins.
You just asked random questions. I can do the same thing

How will Tayuya react to fighting a girl?

Will she use close combat first or will she summon?
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:57 AM   #175
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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You just asked random questions. I can do the same thing

How will Tayuya react to fighting a girl?

Will she use close combat first or will she summon?
nice one pop,
why dont every one accept that Kurenai can move faster that shikamaru
can do dodging better than shikamaru
she does not need eye contact to make gengitsu
at the beginning of her gengitsu she will vanish so no one will be able to harm her
she has kunai and can do more and faster damage
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:09 PM   #176
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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You just asked random questions. I can do the same thing

How will Tayuya react to fighting a girl?

Will she use close combat first or will she summon?
No they aren't random they are the questions that need to be answered to show how IC kurenai would face this situation.
Next I can generalize by tayuya's attitude and behavior that it makes no difference what gender but that wouldn't be the point.

Next yes she would summon since it was the first thing she did in her fight with shikimaru.

Kurenai when facing kisame and itachi didn't know the extent of their power which is apparent when kakashi had to remind them how good itachi was.

tayuya while not having a lot of taijutsu still has the fact that she was able to puch naruto back to shikimaru when naruto tried to jump to kimi.

The thing is there is still no proof on your side to help with your arguement.

Does it say that kurenai's genjutsu can reach over or up to 50 meters?

It may not take her too long but saying she would be there before tayuya has her doki ready is just speculation.

Since she could tell by tayuyas clothing that she works for oro and is a threat why would she charge in?

The thing that is missing is the proof so with this I'll leave this alone since I have proven all I need to and will be back once you have some proof of your own to show until then tayuya wins.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:15 PM   #177
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

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nice one pop,
why dont every one accept that Kurenai can move faster that shikamaru
can do dodging better than shikamaru
she does not need eye contact to make gengitsu
at the beginning of her gengitsu she will vanish so no one will be able to harm her
she has kunai and can do more and faster damage
Actual when she used her genjutsu she was in both kisames and itachis line of sight.

I'll gladly admit all of these points above as soon as someone can show me proof of it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:39 PM   #178
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

[QUOTE=Heji Oka;6388027]Actual when she used her genjutsu she was in both kisames and itachis line of sight.
true but her eyes where closed, so the opponent does not need to look at her eyes, unlike the case with sharingan, the enemy need to see her but not looking into her eyes this gives more dstance
she is faster than shika, because of the difference in level, remember how fast she interfered to protect hinata from neji, similar speed to kakashi and guy
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:45 PM   #179
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

[QUOTE=athoatho;6388053]
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Actual when she used her genjutsu she was in both kisames and itachis line of sight.
true but her eyes where closed, so the opponent does not need to look at her eyes, unlike the case with sharingan, the enemy need to see her but not looking into her eyes this gives more dstance
she is faster than shika, because of the difference in level, remember how fast she interfered to protect hinata from neji, similar speed to kakashi and guy
But look at the distance that isn't 50 meters and the kakashi and guy have shown much better speed feats afterward so that is no a good example of how she can close the distance in 50 meters.

while yes her eyes were closed look how close she was when she performed the jutsu, prove that she can affect her target with said jutsu from 50 meters.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #180
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Default Re: Kurenai vs Tayuya

It seems that Ihave missed something, why 50 meters ?
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