Kurenai vs Tayuya

[BoxHead]

You DO know that Kurenai has shown only one jutsu in canon, right?

Her tree binding genjutsu is incredibly weak, and a bored Itachi in base managed to reverse it.

At least Shikamaru had his 200+ IQ to help him set up traps so he could eventually try Shadow Strangle but he still had to have his ass saved by Temari.

But anyways, back to Kurenai. You never countered Noctis's point. So... lets just say on the completely improbable chance that Kurenai can get close, manage to pull a genjutsu... what can she do? It's not like she's shown many other battle feats. Tayuya easily wins this.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

No one is messing with you and Tayuya is easy anger, she was angry the entire time she there, she was angry at the leaf Jonin for coming after them, She was angry with Jirobo and constantly talked about him. She was angry at Shikamaru for trying to trick them with such a lame impersonation of Jirobo.

She is easier to make angry than both Sakura and Temari combined she's just an angry person.

[megabbaut]

To be fair Tayuya has never shown any genjutsu defense while Kurenai can just make hand seals to use her genjutsu which takes faster than Tayuya going to CS2 and playing her flute.

[PrinceofPeace]

@HH
-but what would Kurenai do to make her angry? SHe does not wear th typical jonnin jacket so Tayuya would not know she is a jonin. Just she gets angy does not mean she can do different things

@Box
-Itachi is the genjutsu MAster! He even complimented Kurenai! Yes Kurnai got stomped by Itachi but so would Tayuya! We have seen Kurenai break out of genjutsu but not Tayuya. Tauya would need to blitz into CS2 to activate genjutsu which is OOC. Tayuya has no feats that proves she can break out of genjutsu.


Overall after the genjutsu is activated.... the battle is over!! Tayuya has not shown the ability to break out of the genjutsu!!!
Even IF!!!! Tayuya was able to use her summonings Kurnai can use her genjutsu to capture the two monsters with it or a monster and Tayuya

[BoxHead]

Sooooo apparently this genjutsu which involves tying up one person so you can attack them will completely take out all of the demons and their ghost tongues right before Tayuya can kill her?

Tayuya is a genjutsu master, or at least proficient. You can't tell me that Naruto, who barely knows any actual NINjutsu knows how to release and a person who uses genjutsu doesn't.

[CoolerThanIce]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

To be fair Tayuya has never shown any genjutsu defense while Kurenai can just make hand seals to use her genjutsu which takes faster than Tayuya going to CS2 and playing her flute.

I repeat again; a genjutsu user who doesn't have any kind of genjutsu defense or can't break out of a genjutsu just DOESN'T make any sense.

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by BoxHead

At least Shikamaru had his 200+ IQ to help him set up traps so he could eventually try Shadow Strangle but he still had to have his ass saved by Temari.

This.

If anything Tayuya also has her tremendous intelligence as well.Not gonna say its on par with Shikamaru but their battle was definitely one of intellectual basis as well.Heck, she pretty much had Shikamaru cornered who was only able to counter by utilizing every single one of his equipment and Shadow Possession and he still lost.

Even then, PoP relies too much on showings, a Genjutsu pro that hasn't shown how to release means she can't release is like saying just because someone hasn't shown Henge or Shunshin they can't use it when it's the very basics of Ninja Jutsu.

Tayuya is a genjutsu master, or at least proficient.

She's a clear master who is stated to know tens of Genjutsu and Shikamaru was literally "Holy this Chakra!"

Her Genjutsu is stated to be the very worst one could face cause its long ranged,activated by hearing and affecting all senses.

Going by Shikamaru defeating Tayuya requires someone like Kiba or Neji as she likes distance and staying invisible.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by BoxHead

Sooooo apparently this genjutsu which involves tying up one person so you can attack them will completely take out all of the demons and their ghost tongues right before Tayuya can kill her?
Yes. Because Tayuya is tied up she can not play her flute which controls the demons. They would be motionless ...practiacally braindead with no command.

Tayuya is a genjutsu master, or at least proficient.
I have to disagree..... seeing that the only time she used genjutsu was in CS2. SHe had to go into her strongest state to use a genjutsu that was broken out of through pain by Shikamaru. She is FAR from master and at best proficient. If she was so good at it she could of used it in base
You can't tell me that Naruto, who barely knows any actual NINjutsu knows how to release and a person who uses genjutsu doesn't.
??? huh I do not understand the statment????

@Cooler
-I also will repeat myself.... AGAIN! Tayuya has not shown the ability to break out of genjutsu. Itachi was easily able to and Tayuya is no where near on Itachi's level. She has to go into CS2 to use genjutsu afterall so that is not saying she is good at it

@Vivi
-IMO Tayuya is not that smat. She is dumber than Kidimaro and probably on par with sakon/ukon. Tayuya had the advantage in the battle 24/7. Afterall she underestimated her foe constantly. She is so overconfident she does not even carry an additonal weapon. She was foolish. Tayuya just had the upperhand. She did not show any smart feats. She just resonded to the barrage of attacks. Tayuya was dumb enough to get close with the kunai when she could have thrown it. She got caught in the shadows multiple times. She was even fooled by Naruto.
If lucky Tayuya could break out of genjutsu in CS2 but by that time she would get cut with a kunai to the thoat. Tayuya bassically had no plans in her battle. It was just search and destroy with her summoning monsters

[CoolerThanIce]

PrinceofPeace: You sure do rely too much on showings. And just because she's not in the same level as Itachi doesn't mean that she isn't good. You have to be intelligent to be able to use genjutsu and as far as Shikamaru pointed out, she clearly is intelligent. Sure, she's not on Itachi's level, but I'd say that she isn't that far from Kurenai's level. You overestimate Kurenai too much. Let's face it, she only managed to catch Itachi for a little while. Plus, you can't really compare anyone to Itachi, he was a genjutsu genius.

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

@Vivi
-IMO Tayuya is not that smat. She is dumber than Kidimaro and probably on par with sakon/ukon.
Tayuya had the advantage in the battle 24/7. Afterall she underestimated her foe constantly. She is so overconfident she does not even carry an additonal weapon. She was foolish. Tayuya just had the upperhand. She did not show any smart feats. She just resonded to the barrage of attacks. Tayuya was dumb enough to get close with the kunai when she could have thrown it. She got caught in the shadows multiple times. She was even fooled by Naruto.
If lucky Tayuya could break out of genjutsu in CS2 but by that time she would get cut with a kunai to the thoat. Tayuya bassically had no plans in her battle. It was just search and destroy with her summoning monsters

She is STATED to be highly intelligent so don't gimme she's stupid.
It even says as a side note that the battle is one of intelligence.
It's STATED she'd be great at Shogi.
Shikamaru stated the battle is like playing Chess and he's playing without King or Rook against her.
Again he NEEDED his entire equipment to even get rid of the Demons alone.

Getting caught by Shikamaru makes you dumb?It's not like hes a master strategist.
Same with Naruto.Fooled by him doesn't make the other stupid.

And of course she had plans, reread their battle.Shikamaru sums up why Tayuya has no weakness in offense and defense.

Not gonna bother with breaking out cause its obvious she can.

[PrinceofPeace]

@vivi
- I did it says he was stupid. But it was stated that kidimaro is the smartest. But besides what shikamaru said she did not do anything that smart. She was using brute strength the entire time. She used her summoning a well but not in a way that was genius. She has no weakness because she was strong not smart. Just because she was strong does not make her smart.

@cool
Please tell me how she breaks out of genjutsu. That is my main point. She only used genjutsu in CS2 so she i not that proficient in genjutsu. They are in a forest and the genjutsu is forest natured so tayuya may not know it is genjutsu. The fact that both kisame and itachi were caught in her genjutsu is a better feat than anything tayuya did. Even if tayuya could break out it would take a few seconds. It would not be as fast as itachi did it. Kurenai could try and take the flute away or finish it with her ninja tools.

[CoolerThanIce]

PrinceofPeace: She either interrupts her chakra flow, releases herself from the genjutsu by uttering the command "Release" (or "Kai" as it's said in japanese) or inflicts pain on herself (this alternative is mostly used by those who've never learned the other two alternatives though). She could've used genjutsu in CS2 many times before we got to see her in her first episode, and practiced to break out of a genjutsu. You've got a good point about the forest natured genjutsu though.

As for the statement that she wouldn't be fast enough to break free from a genjutsu before Kurenai destroys her flute; What proof do you have?

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

@vivi
- I did it says he was stupid. But it was stated that kidimaro is the smartest. But besides what shikamaru said she did not do anything that smart. She was using brute strength the entire time. She used her summoning a well but not in a way that was genius. She has no weakness because she was strong not smart. Just because she was strong does not make her smart.

She wasn't.Analyze the battle,she had Shikamaru cornered.
The Ghosts were after him and are ethereal, if they hit Shikamaru he can't rend Chakra by himself.Hence Shikamarus hand.One of them barely touched his hand and it twitched tremendously.
In other works, direct confrontation with the ghosts is useless.
How to take them out would be to stop Tayuya from playing the flute, yet that means confronting the Ghosts. Shadow Possession was useless as well cause of their random patterns, failing to get just one has been stated to be the end and Tayuya loves distance.
So the only option was to attack the demons, yet that was only possible for Shikamaru due to Shadow Possession (which is perfect to counter her strategy) and a complicated strategy involving more than 10 steps.
Anybody else, the ghosts would have got them.

[PrinceofPeace]

My bad she can not steal flute cuz she would be standing sill.

Yes those are the two typical ways to break out of genjutsu but we have not seen her do not. The genjutsu could be too powerful. Kisame could not Ben break out of it.

My main points
- tayuya can only use genjutsu in CS2 which was broken out of by a gennin. Kurenai specializes in genjutsu and has feats of breaking out of genjutsu sooooooo
Tayuya's genjutsu !!

-how can you guys be so sure tayuya can break out of kurenai's genjutsu? Kurenai caught stronger foes in it and is more experienced . You all have ASSUMED that just cuz he uses genjutsu that she can break out of it.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Vivi

She wasn't.Analyze the battle,she had Shikamaru cornered.
because she was stronger and was a long ranged fighter
The Ghosts were after him and are ethereal, if they hit Shikamaru he can't rend Chakra by himself.Hence Shikamarus hand.One of them barely touched his hand and it twitched tremendously.
OOC for Tayuya to go stright into the ghost. The monsters would attack for a while. Plus how would Tayuya control them when she is under genjutsu? Summoning the monsters then activating them then using their ghost ablities is plenty of time of Kurnai to catch her in genjutsu
In other works, direct confrontation with the ghosts is useless.
Nobody said kurneai would want to confront them when Kurenai does not like that kind fo combat. She has no feats in that area.
How to take them out would be to stop Tayuya from playing the flute, yet that means confronting the Ghosts.
Kurnai would stop her from playing the flute with genjutsu. Tayuya would not command the monsters to use ghost right away. Even if they did that would just give more opportunity for Kurnai to get the monsters or Tayuya in genjutsu.Kurenai does not have to get close
Shadow Possession was useless as well cause of their random patterns, failing to get just one has been stated to be the end and Tayuya loves distance.
YES YES YES!!! SHADOW POSSESION was USELESS!!! But Shadow Possesion is different than genjutsu. AND YES TAYUYA LOVES DISTANCE. So does Kurenai! It is not because Kurenai is so smart that she cornered Shikamaru it is because she naturally had the upper hand. Shikamaru was constantly at a disadvantage due to his abilities.
So the only option was to attack the demons, yet that was only possible for Shikamaru due to Shadow Possession (which is perfect to counter her strategy) and a complicated strategy involving more than 10 steps.
Anybody else, the ghosts would have got them.

The point is TAYUYA WILL FALL TO GENJUTSU!

Tayuya always brags about how her art is unstoppable. It is plenty of time for Kurenai to use genjutsu on Tayuya.

Plus the monsters do not react right away to the music (for the monsters to start/activate)

When Tayuya falls to genjutsu... then what? Is she going to break out of it in time before Kurenai lands the final blow? How well can Tayuya break out of genjutsu? Will Tayuya know it is genjutsu since she only uses audio genjutsu? How will Tayuya cause herself pain in genjutsu? Does Tayuya have good enough chakra control to break out of genjutsu? Has Tayuya ever been caught in genjutsu? Has Tayuya ever been taught to break out of genjutsu? Is Tayuya as good as breaking out of genjutsu as Itachi?
ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS ARE UNKOWN!!!
Tayuya has a lack of feat and we are ASSUMING. Thus Tayuya can not break out of genjutsu

Unlike Tayuya Kurenai specializes in genjutsu. It is her only way of fighting. Kurenai has more experience and a higher rank. Kuernai also has a better idea of the location. Kurenai has better hype cuz Itachi gave her props for her genjutsu.

Tayuya is overconfident and relies too much on her flute. It is her only weapon and she closes her eyes when she plays. Tayuya would not blitz into CS2 or use the monsters ghost right away.

Unlike Tayuya Kurenai has broken out of genjutsu before.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

what would she do? She's breathing, that's how she made Tayuya angry.

[PrinceofPeace]

Shikamaru's breathing did not make her angry. It was his planning and running. OVerall it certaininly did not make her angry enough to blitz into CS2 or ghost tounges

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

She tried to put her in genjutsu Tayuya angry, Tayuya smash lol let me stop messing with you right now because I'm not even really trying to debate.

[PrinceofPeace]

When tayuya is caught in genjutsu how would she break out to be angry?

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Anger has no logic, it just is lol Prince dude I'm just messing with you.