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View Poll Results: Who wins?
Sagepain 7 58.33%
JLI2infinity 5 41.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:54 PM   #1
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Default Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

please do not vote right away

Sagepain- juugo, (PTS) Kabuto, Kidomaru
vs
JLI2infinity- kankuro, darui, kitsuchi

-they are bloodlusted
-battle takes place in forest of death
-active animals and traps
-no knolwedge
-standard prep
-start at different sides of forest

All feats

Who Wins?
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

I will give this fight to my team because they have a range advantage even against someone like Kidomaru, they have the skills and experience of three Allied Shinobi Force captains on their side, and a larger arsenal with which they can defeat the enemy.

Kankuro is just as adept as Kidomaru at hiding in the shadows and attacking from a distance but unlike Kidomaru he is far more experienced at doing it (seeing as he didn't die in his fight) and has both greater destructive capability and versatility. All of that on top of two teammates who can defend him from Kidomaru's arrows.

Juugo is really only a threat when he's bloodlusted but considering Kitsuchi gave a V2 cloaked Kinkaku a punch that sent him flying I wouldn't really hold my breath for him taking my team out.

Kabuto is the biggest threat but back in part 1 even though he was Kakashi level he was much better suited for things like espionage then straight up combat. We already saw how he got injured and cornered in the past while running away from some Suna jonin. With nothing but standard prep he isn't hurting anyone. Kitsuchi will have him buried before he gets within 20 yards of using that scalpel. Darui can snipe him or if Kabuto manages to sneak up on them he can just pull out his sword which gives him more range and an advantage over someone who's not as skilled in taijutsu. And Kankuro can just melt him with Sasori's flamethrowers.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

kankuro vs kimdomaru-once kimdomaru has found kankuro, he will be able to summon his spider, which would keep kankuro occupied as h fights all he smaller spiders, while this happens, kidomaru could either use his chakra web to trap kankuro as he has no way to escape (weapons can not cut them, chakra is needed) as this happens, kidomaru would be able to use his bow and kill him, or while he fights the spider, hide and do the same, also if kankuro trys to attack, kidomaru uses his gold Armour kidomaru wins

Kitsuchi vs kabuto- from my knowledge, PTS kabuto has no defence against attacks such as earth release:sandwich technique kitsuchi wins

jugo vs darui- jugo bloodlusted means he goes straight away transforms, and while like this, he tanked a full force punch from the raikage, and along with chakra cannons which make close combat useless jugo wins
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE susanoo View Post
kankuro vs kimdomaru-once kimdomaru has found kankuro, he will be able to summon his spider, which would keep kankuro occupied as h fights all he smaller spiders, while this happens, kidomaru could either use his chakra web to trap kankuro as he has no way to escape (weapons can not cut them, chakra is needed) as this happens, kidomaru would be able to use his bow and kill him, or while he fights the spider, hide and do the same, also if kankuro trys to attack, kidomaru uses his gold Armour kidomaru wins

With Just Kumosokai after he summons Kyodaigumo he can end the fight against all of them if they don't dodge. Of course thats assuming they can, Kitsuchi can potentially just create an earth wall to intercept the web attacks.

Once Kido catches Kankuro or any of his puppets they become useless for the rest of the fight.


Kitsuchi vs kabuto- from my knowledge, PTS kabuto has no defence against attacks such as earth release:sandwich technique kitsuchi wins

Kabuto has Hiding like a mole Technique, that saves him from nearly any kind of Earth Technique except for jutsu like Swamp of the underworld.
At the same time Kabuto makes his way towards Darui or Kitsuchi and attacks the opponents legs with a chakra scapel.


jugo vs darui- jugo bloodlusted means he goes straight away transforms, and while like this, he tanked a full force punch from the raikage, and along with chakra cannons which make close combat useless jugo wins
Jugo in CS2 can tank Darui's Laser circus but his Black Lightning can still be a threat. Because of this I actually think Darui could win.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Hmmm-Sagepain almost completely copied my team!! Ah well, that means he's got good taste

This one is a tough one. JLI2's team is pretty OP, but Kidomaru is at a huge advantage in the forest of death. I want to give it to Sagepain, due to a similar team structure and therefore foolproof battle plan, but this team just doesn't have the same scouting abilities that mine does, which means that the two teams will find each other at roughly the same time eliminating 1/2 of Kidomaru's usefulness (setting up traps and coordinating a surprise attack) and stopping surprise arrow and underground ankle attacks from happening.

If the two teams do meet head on I can see Kitsuchi possibly using Mountain Sandwich right away (due to bloodlust) and in that case I can only see Kabuto coming out okay-Juugo and Kidomaru could possibly survive the technique with CS2, but they would still be stuck inside the mountain with nowhere to move. Then it's just PTS Kabuto against Kankuro, Kitsuchi, and Darui which he's not going to win (Kabuto was compared to Kakashi in skill and Darui is like the Kumo version of Kakashi, and he'll have two powerful Jonin for support).

If Sagepain can convince me that his team can accurately locate JLI2's first and succeed in a surprise attack (or offer some other compelling evidence on how his team would win) I may change my mind, but right now I'm leaning towards JLI2.

I'll be following this match-it's got the potential to be a great debate.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Juugo vs Kankuro (Kankuro wins)
-Lets remember that Jugo is BLOODLUSTED so he can instantly go into CS2! This is good and bad! Not only may he hurt his teammates but this guy is LOUD LOUD LOUD!! He would instantly give off his postition saying he wants to KILL KILL KILL!!! Kankuro would hear wher he is and start to make traps. Kankuro would most likely find Juugo first because Juugo yelles and stuff. his apperance would scare off animals and make them run in the other direction. Kankuro would then use posion mist and Juugo would be too hot-headed to think and he would breath in the mist. Eventually the posion would take effect and all that Kankuro has to do is evade and think rationally.

Darui vs Juugo (Juugo Wins)
-Juugo can talk to animals and find out where is opponent is. Juugo would then go to his foe and try to get close. He would then blitz into CS2 and rentlesly attack his foe. Darui does not have anything to stop and kill him.... Darui could only stall but Not even Darui could do as much damage as Juugo did on Ay!!

Juugo vs Kutishci (Kutischi Wins)
-Opening Earth Rising + Earth Sandwhich= GG
--------------------------------------------------
Kabuto vs Kankuro (Kankuro Wins)
-I do not see Kankuro losing this. How does Kabuto break the puppets? He could cut the theads but Kankuro has too many weapons a his disposal. Kabuto has no long range ninjutsu which is the main reason why he loses

Kabuto vs Kitchi (Kabuto wins)
Kitchi tries to use Earth Sandwhich but Kabuto goes underground to dodge. Kitchi would think he won but than Kabuto attacks from below and takes out his legs

Kabuto vs Darui (Dauri wins)
-kabuto can not dodge forever and Dauri has too many powerful long ranged ninjutsu
-----------------------------------------------
Kidomaru (i do not know much about him)

Kidomaru vs Kitushi (Kitushi wins)
-Earth Sandwhich squashes him like the bug he is

Dauri vs Kidomaru (Darui wins)
-trom release finds and hit him

Kankuro vs Kidomaru (Kankuro wins)
-Kankuro has multiple puupets !! 2 to defend and 2 to attack!!!!
Good luck getting past that especially with posion bombs
-------------------------------------
JL2 has more kills so I believe he will win!!!
------------------------------------------
Juugo is the MVP IMO!! juugo can talk to animals and find the enmies location and use that to their advantage!
I may have been wrong on some of the matchups so feel free to comment
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Guys I don't see the purpose of these individual match ups here. I mean I do understand they are a great way to break down every aspect of the teams but in this fight my group has the unique advantage of working amazingly together.

Juugo will most likely help Sagepain's team find mine first but they won't be able to win.

Kankuro does NOT lose to Kidomaru. I can't believe this is being suggested. Not only does Kankuro have a shielding puppet he has Sasori along with the Mother and Father puppet. That trio alone is a ridiculous arsenal but if that wasn't enough like I said before Darui and Kitsuchi are there to block and / or shoot down any incoming arrows. As for the spider summon, Kankuro could blow that thing to kingdom come with Sasori's explosive tags. Web traps aren't helpful here. Darui can just throw raiton enhanced shuriken to rip them to shreds if someone happened to get caught.

I understand that fighting styles are different and all that but I think something you guys are forgetting is the power scaling of the Sound 4 they were low to mid jonin level even at their best. And their strengths were explicitly stated in the manga. Jidanbo was the weakest followed by Kidomaru then Sakon-Ukon and finally Tayuya being the most powerful. PTS Kankuro absolutely pwned Sakon and Ukon yes I'm aware that they had fought Kiba and all of that but you have to acknowledge that if Kidomaru respected Sakon as his superior he must have understood the level of opponent that was within his skill level. A jonin level Captain of the ambush squad in possession of the secret weapon of an Akatsuki member certainly isn't it.

I see you all have Juugo as an important factor here but I don't know how he even manages to get close to my team full of long range fighters. Tanking Laser Circus doesn't mean he's fit to fight afterwards. Juugo's regen. after taking A's blow, depended on him taking cells from a nearby corpse.

But my solution to the Juugo problem is simple. Kankuro directs Crow towards bloodlusted Juugo, once Juugo punches through it and continues charging toward him Kankuro uses Crow's detached head and fires a poison gas bomb into Juugo's back. Juugo dies from the toxin. In his bloodlusted form Juugo does not have the awareness nor the wit to think through his opponent's attack pattern.

I don't need Kitsuchi or Darui to use their best moves this round I'm saving them for later in the tournament.

Last edited by JLI2infinity; 10-22-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage View Post
If Sagepain can convince me that his team can accurately locate JLI2's first and succeed in a surprise attack (or offer some other compelling evidence on how his team would win) I may change my mind, but right now I'm leaning towards JLI2.

I'll be following this match-it's got the potential to be a great debate.
My Team actually consists of a Medic/Spy, Tracker/Fighter, and a Long Range/Strategist. Its really balanced.

Jugo finds the enemy before they find his team via talking to animals.
From there Kidomaru sets webs everywhere to detect there movements before they actually encounter each other and to gain the advantage with an ambush.

Jugo comes in from there blindspot in CS2 going straight for the kill without thinking, while Kido uses his Kumosokai in the direction of the enemies escape route trapping them all at once. Fight ends via immobilization of enemies.

Only one avoiding that web is Darui with chakra flow. Thats when Kabuto takes him out with Hiding like a mole+Chakra scapel to the legs.

@JLI2: Kankuro has no feats with Mother and Father so thats not usable, but your other points were great.
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Last edited by Sagepain; 10-22-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Guys I don't see the purpose of these individual match ups here. I mean I do understand they are a great way to break down every aspect of the teams but in this fight my group has the unique advantage of working amazingly together. I agree. Using good team strategy is pretty much the purpose of this contest (I thought).

Juugo will most likely help Sagepain's team find mine first but they won't be able to win.

Kankuro does NOT lose to Kidomaru. I can't believe this is being suggested. Not only does Kankuro have a shielding puppet he has Sasori along with the Mother and Father puppet. That trio alone is a ridiculous arsenal but if that wasn't enough like I said before Darui and Kitsuchi are there to block and / or shoot down any incoming arrows. As for the spider summon, Kankuro could blow that thing to kingdom come with Sasori's explosive tags. Web traps aren't helpful here. Darui can just throw raiton enhanced shuriken to rip them to shreds if someone happened to get caught.
I have counters for this, but I'm conflicted about laying out all my cards when we will probably have our teams match up later.

I understand that fighting styles are different and all that but I think something you guys are forgetting is the power scaling of the Sound 4 they were low to mid jonin level even at their best. And their strengths were explicitly stated in the manga. Jidanbo was the weakest followed by Kidomaru then Sakon-Ukon and finally Tayuya being the most powerful. PTS Kankuro absolutely pwned Sakon and Ukon yes I'm aware that they had fought Kiba and all of that but you have to acknowledge that if Kidomaru respected Sakon as his superior he must have understood the level of opponent that was within his skill level. A jonin level Captain of the ambush squad in possession of the secret weapon of an Akatsuki member certainly isn't it.
Power scaling really isn't a good argument here. Jirobo lost to Choji on steroids (a skill he can only use once a couple of months). Kidomaru lost because he was overconfident and didn't realize he could be attacked back through his own thread by Gentle Fist. Tayuya lost because her best skill (genjutsu) was ineffective against Temari's wind, and Sakon+Ukon don't have as good of an excuse, but they fought against Kankuro, a long range fighter, which is a disadvantage for them. Kidomaru also never recognized Sakon as his superior, he believed himself to be the strongest. (At any rate he was definitely the smartest) and by that logic Konohamaru should have just curled up into a ball instead of owning one of the Pain bodies.

I see you all have Juugo as an important factor here but I don't know how he even manages to get close to my team full of long range fighters. Tanking Laser Circus doesn't mean he's fit to fight afterwards. Juugo's regen. after taking A's blow, depended on him taking cells from a nearby corpse.

But my solution to the Juugo problem is simple. Kankuro directs Crow towards bloodlusted Juugo, once Juugo punches through it and continues charging toward him Kankuro uses Crow's detached head and fires a poison gas bomb into Juugo's back. Juugo dies from the toxin. In his bloodlusted form Juugo does not have the awareness nor the wit to think through his opponent's attack pattern. Yup.

I don't need Kitsuchi or Darui to use their best moves this round I'm saving them for later in the tournament. Oh, how crafty!
@Sagepain: That sounds logical-let's see how JLI2 responds.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagepain View Post
My Team actually consists of a Medic/Spy, Tracker/Fighter, and a Long Range/Strategist. Its really balanced.

Jugo finds the enemy before they find his team via talking to animals.
From there Kidomaru sets webs everywhere to detect there movements before they actually encounter each other and to gain the advantage with an ambush.

Jugo comes in from there blindspot in CS2 going straight for the kill without thinking, while Kido uses his Kumosokai in the direction of the enemies escape route trapping them all at once. Fight ends via immobilization of enemies.

Only one avoiding that web is Darui with chakra flow. Thats when Kabuto takes him out with Hiding like a mole+Chakra scapel to the legs.

@JLI2: Kankuro has no feats with Mother and Father so thats not usable, but your other points were great.
Well you had an awesome counter so I'll have to use a strategy I was saving for later against Godaime in this thread since your teams are so similar.

My team doesn't have to go out searching for others. They can reshape the terrain as they see fit. Both Darui and Kankuro have both demonstrated their ability to lay traps for their techniques. If you remember the fight between the ambush squads, Kankuro created a special strategy to avoid being ambushed. He placed his salamander doll underground in front of him to trap oncoming attackers and then he had the Iwa shinobi use his doton to raise the platform they were standing on and create trenches. Not only did this hide them from the enemy it also made it impossible for the enemy to sneak up on them.

If you want to see the set up it's Chapter 517, page 8, except I am improving it by having Darui use his suiton to create a moat to surround their base. With standard prep and tools my team can create a strong hold in the center of the forest. Even with the animals informing Juugo where they are no one can sneak up on them. The enemy will have to make themselves known if they wish to attack.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

you say that your team would be ready for an ambush.... but what about underground????

this is how I see it
----------------------------
Juugo asks a bird to find the enemy

bird finds enemy and reports back to Juugo and the other team does not know of their position

Bird tells Juugo that they are setting up a trap and staying in once place. Bird also tells them the enemies location

SagePain's Team then sneaks up onto enemy.

Kabuto goes underground and attacks from below! Kabuto grabs and disables the legs of Dauri or Kitshchi or Kankuro

Juugo can jump in the air with jet boosters than fire lasers from above

Kidimaro hides in trees and starts to lay traps
----------------------------------------------
So I guess what I am asking is how does the other team react to kabuto going underground? I know salamander would be underground but there is a chance that an animal would warn Juugo and his friends that their is a puppet underground.
Kabuto may not even attack kankuro first and Salmander can not detech enemies underground

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

JLI2 had to be all smart. I always envisioned the other teams coming towards mine, now I have to think of a good strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post

Bird tells Juugo that they are setting up a trap and staying in once place. Bird also tells them the enemies location
This is assuming Juugo can find a bird intelligent enough to relay information more complex than a general location and number of enemies, which is possible considering the multiple animals with human-level intelligence in the Narutoverse, but as far as I can remember there hasn't been a bird shown with this level of intelligence yet.

Oh god-this just reminded me of Ninja Ostrich-and I thought I had banished it from my brain!


SagePain's Team then sneaks up onto enemy.

Kabuto goes underground and attacks from below! Kabuto grabs and disables the legs of Dauri or Kitshchi or Kankuro
I feel like JLI2's team would have some kind of detection system, but I'll let him expand on that.
Juugo can jump in the air with jet boosters than fire lasers from above
Yeah, no. He's going to have to cross a fairly long distance to reach them and would be pretty obvious jumping through the air.
Kidimaro hides in trees and starts to lay traps
And...
----------------------------------------------
So I guess what I am asking is how does the other team react to kabuto going underground? I know salamander would be underground but there is a chance that an animal would warn Juugo and his friends that their is a puppet underground. What...? That doesn't make any sense unless one of the animals that Juugo sent out conveniently happened to arrive at the exact time Kankuro sent Sanshou underground.
Kabuto may not even attack kankuro first and Salmander can not detech enemies underground
A few observations in yellow.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Kabuto can stil attack underground! The possiblity that he attacks kankuro first is 1/3! kabuto has a higher chance to attack the others who have no counter for underground attacks.

Kabuto easily destroys the puppet with chakra scapel anyway
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
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Lee, how would you counter MANDA II??
Read this in another thread. Does this mean Kabuto has access to Manda II? or is there a difference between Kabuto and PTS Kabuto? because if there is then what exactly has TS Kabuto done that PTS Kabuto hasin't?
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

How am I losing right now?

Prince has done a majority of the debating. If I get eliminated on this I swear...

Anyways...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace View Post
you say that your team would be ready for an ambush.... but what about underground????

this is how I see it
----------------------------
Juugo asks a bird to find the enemy

bird finds enemy and reports back to Juugo and the other team does not know of their position

Bird tells Juugo that they are setting up a trap and staying in once place. Bird also tells them the enemies location

SagePain's Team then sneaks up onto enemy.

Kabuto goes underground and attacks from below! Kabuto grabs and disables the legs of Dauri or Kitshchi or Kankuro

Juugo can jump in the air with jet boosters than fire lasers from above

Kidimaro hides in trees and starts to lay traps
How does Kabuto go under a moat created from Darui's Suiton. I know they go underground but Kakakshi was at most like 10-20 feet under he didn't go excavate where the fossils are. Not to mention if you looked at the set up you would see that there were numerous explosive tags and wires set up for when the enemies enter the base.

And even if he could why would Kabuto risk a certain death for a possible kill. As soon as he enters the base if he manages to get one of my teammates the other two will own him. And that leaves Kidomaru and Juugo to take on two people more intelligent and experienced than them. Kabuto is a medical ninja key to his team's success he is also their mastermind he admitted himself he's not suited for close combat which we witnessed when he got owned in two moves by Tsunade and had to resort to taking advantage of her hemophobia.

Suggesting he goes underground and can get a kill and escape is like saying you could accurately guess and click on a single tile in minesweeper and avoid losing when the whole the grid is filled with more mines than normal tiles.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagepain View Post
Read this in another thread. Does this mean Kabuto has access to Manda II? or is there a difference between Kabuto and PTS Kabuto? because if there is then what exactly has TS Kabuto done that PTS Kabuto hasin't?
Manda II wan't even "born" until after the TS, so obviously PTS Kabuto doesn't have him. I wasn't even planning on having Manda II since I thought he would be too OP, but since Prince is obviously allowing it I will utilize him. There are other characters with Boss summons and OP techs in the tournament here too like Naruto w/ Bunta and Kitsuchi with Mountain Sandwich, so I don't feel too bad.

I'll PM you with a list of things that TS Kabuto has that PTS Kabuto doesn't or at least didn't show (not counting obviously OP things like Edo Tensei, body mods and SM which would get restricted)...I don't want the others to know what I've got up my sleeve
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

REMINDERS:

You have 2 weeks to cast your vote
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:13 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

Ok seriously I want everyone who votes to give a reason why, because I don't think we should be taking the poll seriously if everyone decides to come in and just pick whoever they want without even thinking.

Sagepain hasn't even argued his side like I said before so I hope polls aren't going to be the deciding factor for these threads.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

^ I actually agree with this as well, I haven't been able to post much but the fact that the poll was put up so early was going to cause this problem.
JLI2 received 2-3 votes before the debate even started which was unfair and now I have 5 votes without posting much.

Anyways, since the poll closes on 11/4/2012 then I'm assuming we have until then to debate. I can't get on very much now but by the end of this week I should be able to.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sagepain vs JLI2infinity

YOU HAVE TO POST A REASON AND VOTE.. the most votes wins with given reason and the deadline is so the rounds can move on
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