Kisame (NO SAMEHADA) vs Tobirama

[PrinceofPeace]

Location- Desert

Full Prep
No knowledge
No ET

NO SAMEHADA

All Feats for Kisame THAT DO NOT INVOLVE SAMEHADA

Tobirama has Manga feats

Distance 25ft

Bloodlusted

FYI- Kisame can use all feats that do not involve him absorbing chakra from a foe

So bassically I belive in a way this is 30% Kisame vs Tobirama

Who wins

Cn Tobirama win WITH or WITHOUT Edo Tensi?

Complications if Tobirama uses ET
-He can not move
-edo's are not as strong as the orginial
-the more to control the harder
-it takes time to summon them

[Godaime Kazekage]

If you count all hype for Tobirama then he wins. He has full prep so Edo is ready to go and he also has S/T Jutsu. The desert is also an advantage due to the comment about him creating water in places without any water source (although I don't put much value in this, since Mei used a much larger Suiton in a desert-like climate).

Without hype Kisame wins easily-he's got much more panel time and jutsu diversity.

[PrinceofPeace]

I had to edit the OP

Please say if Tobirama will win with OR WITHOUT EDO TENSI

[Dragon Style]

Dragon Style: GG No Jutsu!!!

Bringer of Darkness, Sword of the Thunder God, this match is over.

You can't break out of bringer of darkness and you can't see in it, so all Tobirama has to do is shock him to death while he attempts to find him.

[BMC1994]

You do know that tobirama even in the manga has like 0 zero feats and kisame shippuuden feats easily .... on him.

[Ultimate combatant]

With just a little hype to use, Tobirama is one of the legend tier characters. So, I say that Tobirama would win.

However, only with little feats he's shown in Manga he'd have troubles with Kisame!!!

[Mangetsu Hozuki]

The hype on Tobirama says he's the best Water User ever to live, or something like that. So, versus another water user, you can say he wins, even without Edo Tensei. However, we are only using manga feats.... so I guess you can only judge him by his fight with the 3rd Hokage.

@ Dragon Style:

We haven't actually seen Tobirama with the Sword of the Thunder God. It has just been said that he had it, and that it was stolen But I agree. What does a Samehada-less Kisame do against utter darkness except get hit by Tobirama's massive water attacks?

Also, we have only Minato's word to go by when we judge his ability of S/T ninjutsu, so that would be hype as well.

[Dragon Style]

Originally Posted by Mangetsu Hozuki

The hype on Tobirama says he's the best Water User ever to live, or something like that. So, versus another water user, you can say he wins, even without Edo Tensei. However, we are only using manga feats.... so I guess you can only judge him by his fight with the 3rd Hokage.

@ Dragon Style:

We haven't actually seen Tobirama with the Sword of the Thunder God. It has just been said that he had it, and that it was stolen But I agree. What does a Samehada-less Kisame do against utter darkness except get hit by Tobirama's massive water attacks?

Also, we have only Minato's word to go by when we judge his ability of S/T ninjutsu, so that would be hype as well.

True, but it was stolen, long after he was dead, by what's his face, Aoi Rokusho

[Nigoyukai]

I see Tobirama winning this even without using Edo Tensei (it's not even going to help him unless you toss some random strong fighters into the mix, though if Tobirama is in Edo Tensei, then Kisame has zero chance of winning) and without anime feats. Going by hype, course.

[PrinceofPeace]

Without ET-TObiram LOSES HARD

Water Dragon/Colding wave/encapment wall- Kisame survived 7TH GATE GUY!!!!!!!!!!!! So do you think a water dragon would do any vital damage? OH PLEASE!! Yes Kisame would get hurt but he has also shown way better staimina by breaking out of Yamato wood style ! Kisame can absorb chakra WITHOUT SAMEHADA btw.. he did it with Aoba right? I could be wrong.
LET US NOT FORGET KISAME HAS EARTH NINJUTSU!!
Kisame can go underground to dodge the water attacks!

Bringer of Darkness- First of all this was in the anime not in the manga.. just sayin! Tobirama is kage level but he is not an expert in genjutsu! On the other hand Aoba is! Kisame in a weakened state was able to cause enough pain to break out of the genjutsu so why could he not break out of the bringer of darkness

Sword of the Thunder god- Not a very strong sword to be broken by genin! The sword is close/mid range combat so Kisame does not have anything to worry about! Kisame just have to keep at bay or go underground or push him back with his sharks/clones/tsunami

Ways for Kisame to win
-Kisame makes 2 water clones. The clones block TObirmama's vision of the real one so Tobirama does not see the real one go under ground. Tobirama will try to destroy the clones that he thinks are the real ones and will not notice that the real one went underground. The clones soon get defeated but Kisame appears behind Tobirama and cuts him with his regular sword or uses sharks to attack

-Kisame would spit out a tusnami to try and catch TObirama in. Tobirama would jump to dodge then stand on the water. Tobirama would then use the water to his advantage and use a water dragon. Kisame would then go under the water swimming at a fast past. He would also use clones so that Tobirama would have to choose which one to hit. Kisame would then get close to Tobirama and then trap him in a water prison. Tobirama would not use his sword cuz he would shock himself. It would be hard for Tobirama to run away when Kisame is a superior swimmer. Also Most water jutsu would not do much damage on Kisame... especially when he can breath under water.

-30% Kisame has been shown to make about 5 sharks. Since this is 100% Kisame how whould Tobirama counter about 20 sharks coming in diffferent directions that can fly in the air? Water dragon would not be able to take all of them out in time especially when Kisame could use the time to hid. Water encapment wall does not protect Tobirama from above nor below. SO Tobirama would evntaully get hit

-What about Water Style: Rain Water Shark Wave??
Even if the sharks were destroyed their would be an attack within a attack! How would Tobirama suspect that?

-

Tobirama with ET
-I do not see him using this in time while Kisame attacks. Plus it would be hard to control and the jutsu would leave him wide open

Overall
-Tobirama just has water ninjutsu which can be easily dodged by going underground. Kisame has more feats and better ninjutsu than Tobirama. Tobirama's water ninjutsu will hurt kisame but will not kill Kisame! I do not see Tobirama winning this.

[Dragon Style]

Dragon Style: Hold Up No Jutsu!!

Um I didn't exactly read everything else, but it clearly says that bringer of darkness cannot be broken out of so how would Kisame be able to break out of it.

Next we've only seen the sword of the thunder god used by Aoi and as seen before like with Suigetsu and Zabuza, Aoi may not have been able to use it as well as Tobirama.

Tobirama would still be able to see while bringer of darkness is in effect and dodge all of Kisame's attacks who would then waste all of his chakra trying to hit something he can't see.

[BMC1994]

Tobirama only has his manga feats here meaning that he doesnt get bringer of darkness here seeing as hashirama was the one who used it in the manga and not tobirama.

With bloodlust it would go :

great shark missle GG.

[JLI2infinity]

Pretty much what everyone's said so far. If he lives up to his hype as the best suiton user in history and the extremely powerful younger brother entrusted by the strongest shinobi to ever live to lead the village then he should have this. But if he performs like he did with the limited details we've heard about him (i.e. getting beaten to within an inch of his life by Kinkaku and Ginkaku and then not being able to hold of 20 Kinkaku squad shinobi and survive) he should flat out lose.

As Prince and BMC detailed above Kisame's feats casually sh*t on Tobirama's, which is why I hold him to be the strongest suiton user in history until proven otherwise. My whole view about databook statements is that we should accept them as long as they don't conflict with canonical material. For example, Haku being FTL was obviously an exaggeration and I'm beginning to believe Tobirama's title as best suiton user ever was just Kishi using folklore for the same purpose, so people wouldn't just assume that Tobirama was a slouch and so fans would actually respect his skill.

[Ultimate combatant]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

Pretty much what everyone's said so far. If he lives up to his hype as the best suiton user in history and the extremely powerful younger brother entrusted by the strongest shinobi to ever live to lead the village then he should have this. But if he performs like he did with the limited details we've heard about him (i.e. getting beaten to within an inch of his life by Kinkaku and Ginkaku and then not being able to hold of 20 Kinkaku squad shinobi and survive) he should flat out lose.

As Prince and BMC detailed above Kisame's feats casually sh*t on Tobirama's, which is why I hold him to be the strongest suiton user in history until proven otherwise. My whole view about databook statements is that we should accept them as long as they don't conflict with canonical material. For example, Haku being FTL was obviously an exaggeration and I'm beginning to believe Tobirama's title as best suiton user ever was just Kishi using folklore for the same purpose, so people wouldn't just assume that Tobirama was a slouch and so fans would actually respect his skill.

Tobirama could create a water Dragon with a single Hand Seal while other Water users such as Kisame need to perform 44 Hand Seals.

Also, obviously Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was way too flawed. It made even Hashirama and Tobirama look barely Kage level. Plus their personality was absent. It was just their body under Orochimaru's control. It was neither Hashirama nor Tobirama. Just Orochimaru's puppets with access to some of their abilities (weakened) and Orochimaru's lack of creativity.

It does no justice to Hashirama and Tobirama to judge their skills just from the fight with Hiruzen.

And even then, Hiruzen was supposedly the strongest Kage during his time (which implies stronger than Ay, Onoki, Fourth Kazekage and Mei)!!!

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by Ultimate combatant

Tobirama could create a water Dragon with a single Hand Seal while other Water users such as Kisame need to perform 44 Hand Seals.

Also, obviously Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was way too flawed. It made even Hashirama and Tobirama look barely Kage level. Plus their personality was absent. It was just their body under Orochimaru's control. It was neither Hashirama nor Tobirama. Just Orochimaru's puppets with access to some of their abilities (weakened) and Orochimaru's lack of creativity.

It does no justice to Hashirama and Tobirama to judge their skills just from the fight with Hiruzen.

And even then, Hiruzen was supposedly the strongest Kage during his time (which implies stronger than Ay, Onoki, Fourth Kazekage and Mei)!!!

I dont really get why everybody thinks that oros edo tensei would be that much weaker/flawed when nothing really indicates it. Kabuto himself even said that orochimaru perfected Edo Tensei.

The only real seen improvement of kabutos edo tensei would be the number of people he can control and bind.

On top of that oro wasnt out to kill him but just hurt/torture him.

Hashi/Tobirama simply look weak because of powerscaling.
I mean the most powerful character we had seen up until that fight is gated lee.
I doubt kishi had future powers in mind like atomic dismantling/NukingMeteors/Reality bending/TBB/Brainwashing without target being aware and many others otherwise i am sure he would have made them look more powerfull.

Other then that i agree with you.

[PrinceofPeace]

@Jin
-EVEN IF Tobirama lives up to his hype of being the strongest suiton user Tobirama would still lose. Kisame would feed on his strong suiton ninjutsu. Also since Kisame is practically a fish and Kisame has great defense/stamina the wate ninjutsu would not do that much damage.

@Dragon

-Where does it say that you can not bring out bringer of Darkness? One of the ways to break out of Genjutsu is by causing yourself pain. So if Kisame bit off his thounge like that last ttime he was under genjutsu then there would not be an issue.

-Sword of the Thunder god is not that special. I doubt Tobirama would be able to get that close without facing the consequences of Kisame. It is just electiricty and the area will be in water so shocking the field would be too dangerous.

@Combat
-So what if he can use water dragon with one hand seal. That does not make him stong but good at hand seals. He used water dragon a lot so he got better at using it. We can not really trust hype but he did lose to kumo ninja

[Dragon Style]

@Prince

Bringer-of-Darkness Technique

This technique exerts an hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses.

It clearly states that no matter how strong the opponent is that they would be forced to sit in darkness, if it could be broken out of then Hiruzen would have done so.

[PrinceofPeace]

Genjutsu will do nothing!

Kisame could not seen when he went underground so it shows that he can still sense others without sight

Also the genjutsu is not instant so he can attack before the jutsu is completed

Additionaly I doubt Tobirama would start the battle with a genjutsu

ALso Kisame is from the mist so he does not need sight

-He is used to the mist and seeing throug it
plus
-he saw through Fugaki and knew he was a traditor

[Dragon Style]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Genjutsu will do nothing!

Kisame could not seen when he went underground so it shows that he can still sense others without sight

Also the genjutsu is not instant so he can attack before the jutsu is completed

Additionaly I doubt Tobirama would start the battle with a genjutsu

But you don't know that for sure do you

ALso Kisame is from the mist so he does not need sight

-He is used to the mist and seeing throug it
plus
-he saw through Fugaki and knew he was a traditor

Actually when Bringer of darkness was used it came up instantly, mist is not the same as total darkness and it is not a Genjutsu, you can't compare a jutau induced mist to a darkness, created by something that messes with your mind.

More proof of instant Genjutsu's that can't be broken out of are Tsukuyomi

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Dragon Style

Actually when Bringer of darkness was used it came up instantly,
Not it did not! GO watch the anime again. The Darkenss was not activated in an instant! It took a few seconds for the shadows to complete surrond Hiruzen.
mist is not the same as total darkness and it is not a Genjutsu, you can't compare a jutau induced mist to a darkness, created by something that messes with your mind.
True but it does make it possible that Kisame can still see a lil bit. ESPECIALLLY when Kisame attacked team guy while underground and he could not see them

More proof of instant Genjutsu's that can't be broken out of are Tsukuyomi
I thought Saskue broke out of it. It is possible to break out of it if A bijju and Jinjuriki constantly flow chakra throughtout themseleves

Genjutsu is not winning this battle