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Old 03-15-2013, 01:32 PM   #101
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by erndogzetroc View Post
well relativity was a roaring start for human kind, and here's hoping higgs boson will get us closer to the truth. i know much of the universe is made of "stuff" that cannot be quantified with mathematics- "stuff" that skewers every measuring tool that is available to mankind. even when armed with the laws of physics, the universe just keeps going on its own as if powered by it's own motor. i'm not sure if we have the intellectual capacity to really fully know the universe but i'm hopeful. like i said in a previous post, i just hope we don't get hit by a meteor before we get there.
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nah. god of gaps has as much scientific basis as faith. and when you put the two together in a room, play a little barry white in the background, what you get is it's bastard child. intelligent design.

LOLOL TRUUUUU

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i'm actually a catholic so i should believe in the christian god. problem is, it goes against every fiber of my being to believe in flights of fancy and praying for rain. i want to believe.
Sounds like soon to be agnostic atheist to me.

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are you in college and working part time? i'm surprised you have much time for introspection

anyway, i should probably change my avatar because we obviously think alike. i wish i was more like PrinceofPeace: god has no mokuton feats therefore he didn't create the earth.
In college, applying for a job and research position, doing volunteer work. I know that feel bruh. But yeah compared to what my parents did on their 20+ years on a job while raising kids I have plenty of time.

And PoP said that? Wow I love it. Very witty, wish I saw it, would've repped him.

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it's 2013. it's not popular yet but as science progresses and rightwing nuts are getting exposed, you will see more and more younger kids adapting the same approach.

my deconstructing world view comment is just me being hasty. i didn't really follow the whole thread and assumed most would be drinking the jesus juice.
Ahh I see. Naw I joined Jesusholics Anonymous a while back. I'm 2 years clean. I was weaning myself off it for about 3 more before that.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:23 PM   #102
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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JLI2infinity wrote: Sounds like soon to be agnostic atheist to me.
catholic with a crisis in faith

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In college, applying for a job and research position, doing volunteer work. I know that feel bruh. But yeah compared to what my parents did on their 20+ years on a job while raising kids I have plenty of time.

And PoP said that? Wow I love it. Very witty, wish I saw it, would've repped him.
thank god i'm done with college (class of 2009!) and have entered the corporate world. now i don't have to worry about cramming for exams. my only worry now is to remain employed. i do have time for self-relflection though, reading journals, spending more time with the girlfriend, playing the guitar, bettering myself, and stuff like that.

as for that PoP quote, he didn't really say that. i was just making fun of his debating style. that guy, although admirably resilient doesn't have a bone of wit on him LOL.

Back on topic, Hey Shisko, where did you go?
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:07 PM   #103
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by erndogzetroc View Post
catholic with a crisis in faith
Lol that's how it starts.

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thank god i'm done with college (class of 2009!) and have entered the corporate world. now i don't have to worry about cramming for exams. my only worry now is to remain employed. i do have time for self-relflection though, reading journals, spending more time with the girlfriend, playing the guitar, bettering myself, and stuff like that.
Sadly I'm planning on four more years of even more intense school after I finish undergrad That sounds great.

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as for that PoP quote, he didn't really say that. i was just making fun of his debating style. that guy, although admirably resilient doesn't have a bone of wit on him LOL.
Lololol. Ahh I see take my rep sir.

Prince we do love you though. You keep this forum alive. I'm surprised PoP hasn't been member of the month yet.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:08 AM   #104
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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JLI2infinity wrote: Sadly I'm planning on four more years of even more intense school after I finish undergrad That sounds great.
I finished my postgrad in 2010. I was taking it while working full-time. My company was paying for my tuition which helped a lot. If I may ask, what are you taking?

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Prince we do love you though. You keep this forum alive. I'm surprised PoP hasn't been member of the month yet.
I'm surprised too. The guy has 12K posts in less than a year. Balls deep LOL. The guy has elite tanking ability. People throw insult after insult at him but he soldiers on until they give up and abandon the thread. We love him for it though. He should get member of the month.
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:34 PM   #105
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
You present premises, but you do not prove them. The former is easy, and what's already been done. The latter is what has value in doing.

Regarding 'free will' - you seem to be equating being able to know and explain something with controlling it. Is that wise or justified?


Regarding God and a rock - I would also be wary of using paradoxes to 'prove' anything in and of themselves but problems of language in how they're stated. If you're a 'student of philosophy' as you say, I'd read some of Lyotard's work on that.
YOu did not awnser my question.

Can he or not.

GOd if is real can not do anything that is contridicting.
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You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:55 PM   #106
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
YOu did not awnser my question.

Can he or not.

GOd if is real can not do anything that is contridicting.
well you did not answer my question either.

did you just define the christian god as not all knowing based on the premise that humans have free will?

you are using a classical i think therefore i am circular logic here.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:33 PM   #107
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
YOu did not awnser my question.

Can he or not.

GOd if is real can not do anything that is contridicting.
I don't think you understood my reply. I did answer your question, in the way you answer misleading and poorly framed questions such as those - by pointing out how and why they are poorly framed and misleading.

If you're trying to prove, argue or reason that 'God is real,' or 'how God works,' 'what God can do,' etc, it's fallacious to force a question as it's answer that has what you're trying to prove as an implicit premise. It's similar to what 'begging the question is,' though to be honest, your statements are muddled enough that your intent gets lost, so I'll reserve that in application to it. But what you're doing is along the lines of asking "How's it feel to have cooties?" when children are arguing over who actually has cooties. It's an easy trap to get lost in if no one's told you how to get out of it, so consider this post me telling you.

Please reread what I said, this, and I hope that will make sense if you're interested in giving an actual reply. If not, my preemptive response if you post that again is going to be "How's it feel to reason poorly?", as I prefer to respond in kind if we're going to resort to that .
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:52 PM   #108
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

You can't argue about omnipotence, omniscience, or any godly things/enternity. It's beyond the human understanding and leads to nothing but confusion.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #109
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I don't think you understood my reply. I did answer your question, in the way you answer misleading and poorly framed questions such as those - by pointing out how and why they are poorly framed and misleading.

If you're trying to prove, argue or reason that 'God is real,' or 'how God works,' 'what God can do,' etc, it's fallacious to force a question as it's answer that has what you're trying to prove as an implicit premise. It's similar to what 'begging the question is,' though to be honest, your statements are muddled enough that your intent gets lost, so I'll reserve that in application to it. But what you're doing is along the lines of asking "How's it feel to have cooties?" when children are arguing over who actually has cooties. It's an easy trap to get lost in if no one's told you how to get out of it, so consider this post me telling you.

Please reread what I said, this, and I hope that will make sense if you're interested in giving an actual reply. If not, my preemptive response if you post that again is going to be "How's it feel to reason poorly?", as I prefer to respond in kind if we're going to resort to that .
as far as debating the "concept of god," i don't think shisko is even in the same wavelength as you, or me, or JLI2, or anyone who has put forth a coherent argument in this thread. his most recent question / point / or whatever that was, is so poorly framed that i even tried to frame it for him a few posts above: the relationship between free will, destiny, and control. i'm not even sure if i got it right but with shisko, it's a crapshoot.

i think what he's trying to do is trying to prove that the christian version of god is god (looking back at his posts, it's 50% christian god exists, 50% maybe he doesn't exit LOL). it's just odd that his version of the christian god is not consistent with how christians view god. to me, his arguments are just flat out based on biased assumptions that will serve his purpose, whatever that purpose is.

one thing that is admirable about shisko though is that he doesn't copy and paste from google, that much is obvious. some of the stuff in this thread are lifted from science pages or professor interviews. easy giveaway is when the grammar and sentence structure goes from scholarly to something that looks like it was written in crayola, within the same paragraph.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:26 PM   #110
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

God and the bible are just a hoax and tools to enslave the masses.
It's full of the Occult and stolen material from Ancient Religions and nothing more than Propaganda against Satan.
Heck, Satanism isn't REMOTELY about Sacrifices and , it's the Church and Stupid People who made it appear that way.
It's actually about Elevation and Powering Humanity per Meditation.
Those who would do some research would know that it's not about Death or Evil, they believe everything in the Occult has a rational explanation predating religions.
I mean , best example is the Baphomet who was stolen from an Image of Shiva along with the Devils Pitchfork actually referring to the Kundalini Force at the base of the Human Spine referring to the seating position of Meditation thus to a Serpent.

Alot was stolen from Pagan Gentile Religions.
Heck I can name 38.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:52 PM   #111
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Vivi wrote: God and the bible are just a hoax and tools to enslave the masses.
It's full of the Occult and stolen material from Ancient Religions and nothing more than Propaganda against Satan.
NNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! my ears my ears my ears! LOL. i know you're joking...

you do know that if there's a satan, there must be a god.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:54 PM   #112
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

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Originally Posted by erndogzetroc View Post
as far as debating the "concept of god," i don't think shisko is even in the same wavelength as you, or me, or JLI2, or anyone who has put forth a coherent argument in this thread. his most recent question / point / or whatever that was, is so poorly framed that i even tried to frame it for him a few posts above: the relationship between free will, destiny, and control. i'm not even sure if i got it right but with shisko, it's a crapshoot.

i think what he's trying to do is trying to prove that the christian version of god is god (looking back at his posts, it's 50% christian god exists, 50% maybe he doesn't exit LOL). it's just odd that his version of the christian god is not consistent with how christians view god. to me, his arguments are just flat out based on biased assumptions that will serve his purpose, whatever that purpose is.

one thing that is admirable about shisko though is that he doesn't copy and paste from google, that much is obvious. some of the stuff in this thread are lifted from science pages or professor interviews. easy giveaway is when the grammar and sentence structure goes from scholarly to something that looks like it was written in crayola, within the same paragraph.
I've seen Shisko around other threads like this, and at the risk of spoiling it, I've been trying to meet his problem with having a little Dunning-Kruger going on with compassion enough to set him on his way. He's clearly passionate about it, and I'd have it be put to better use if I can get through to him.

I'm not a fan of fundamentalism in most anything, but what I tend to call free-style Christians that make up their own version of it in acknowledged divergence and contradiction to most any form of Christian canon or outside reasoning have a habit of painting themselves into a corner when trying to somehow support it with the Christian foundations they've knowingly thrown away.

Interpretation's great, and if you can back it up, do what you'd like. Plenty of Christian denominations do it within the bounds of the Bible, practice, anything really. But at a certain point, I kinda want to start saying I'm also a Christian, only I believe Jesus was a Buddhist space ghost, and I pray by sinning . You can only stretch something so far until it breaks. Having your own philosophy of life is great, but many people want that and traditional name-brand backing for it at the same time, which holds up to the extent you can hold it up, which most people don't. If you're going to diverge from authority on something like that, and then try to argue for it, you need to be able to support it. Saying you're an Xian that believes pretty much anything that supports whatever you happen to feel like doing at the time is intellectual dishonesty. Assuming you've read the Bible, which it's most adamant supporters tend not to . Kierkegaard read the Bible.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:30 PM   #113
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

First off. NEVER did I say I am talking about the Christian God.

This is a debate aboout God. Hince one.

Now the biggest religions on this planet are Jew, Christian and Muslim. So I am going by that one God. I do not my self know of another. If thsi isn't about that God tell me what it is. Because I am sure it is.

As for my so called 'Crapshot' I was stating that the Bible isn't contridicting like someone said. So before you start putting me down understand what the hell I am even talking about. I understand I do need to with some of you too. But to the one talking about it being contridicting I was stating it isn't you just need to know how to understand it.

Not only that, but you complain about mine arguing? Are you kidding me? Someone here mentioned the darn God partical. News Flash, that was never proven. They are as of 2013 STILL WORKiNG ON IT. They THINK they found it. Not, they found it. So before you talk about my complaining, look at your self.

As for the rock I was just going to say God can not do everything. I am arguing the concept, not if he is real. And if he can, then he can not lift the rock.

If he can't then he can not do anything.

Both ways prove this. If God follows a rule on non-crontridiction.

As for the he knowing everything, If God know I was going to type this, theren am I really making the ability to choose? If it is your choise it should be unknown. If it is known it isbn't IMO.

Could I be wrong? Yes we all could. I am not making crap up, this is stuff brought up.

The Wager i mentioned before I think on here. If you go by that for the single god or any religiong, to a vs. Athiesm then yes it can work. unless you desice to be to literal saying, "Well if you look clos.." yea just stop there as you are just looking for a loop hole to make it not work. These's ways are not really fualting if they are still used. We all just do not know enough compared to experts to even argue this. Non will win as this would have been desiced many years ago.

Also not to complain about what you said about me. It is kinda putting me down and not needed. Just argue what I say, if I sound like I am repeating my self then ignore that and tell me that I am repeating my self. I IMO do not think that is needed.
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You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.

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Old 03-18-2013, 12:47 AM   #114
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Quote:
Shisko Shi wrote: If thsi isn't about that God tell me what it is. Because I am sure it is.
it is. thread title says it is.

Quote:
Now the biggest religions on this planet are Jew, Christian and Muslim.
we'd like to call it judaism. a jew is a person who practices judaism. just so you know, i was born jewish and converted to catholicism in high school. doesn't make me the authority in matters of faith. it just means that i might have some compelling arguments about matters of faith.

Quote:
As for my so called 'Crapshot' I was stating that the Bible isn't contridicting like someone said. So before you start putting me down understand what the hell I am even talking about. I understand I do need to with some of you too. But to the one talking about it being contridicting I was stating it isn't you just need to know how to understand it
i'm assuming you were addressing JLI2's "contradiction and illogical" argument. fair enough but the problem is, as i had mentioned in 3 separate posts, and SRhyse in his latest, you framed your questions so poorly, the idea behind your posts is lost. you might be out of your element here but you'll get lots of practice i promise.

Quote:
As for the he knowing everything, If God know I was going to type this, theren am I really making the ability to choose? If it is your choise it should be unknown. If it is known it isbn't IMO.
so are you equating god having a crystal ball to not having the ability to choose? so to prove that god is not all-knowing, this is how you frame it: if a person's destiny is pre-ordained by god, then that person doesn't have free will. therefore, because every person has free will, god is not all-knowing. ok so how does that help your argument that the god concept does not have contradictions and logical fallacies? please do explain.

Quote:
As for the rock I was just going to say God can not do everything. I am arguing the concept, not if he is real. And if he can, then he can not lift the rock.
sorry, pointless subject. paradox. circular. regress. not a good argument. you should drop this.

Quote:
The Wager i mentioned before I think on here. If you go by that for the single god or any religiong, to a vs. Athiesm then yes it can work. unless you desice to be to literal saying, "Well if you look clos.." yea just stop there as you are just looking for a loop hole to make it not work. These's ways are not really fualting if they are still used. We all just do not know enough compared to experts to even argue this. Non will win as this would have been desiced many years ago.
this i'm really interested in. though the wager is constructed based on christian canon, i'm interested in how the wager can be applied to other ideologies. i read JLI2's responses and i don't necessarily agree with him. i'd like to continue this discussion.

Quote:
Also not to complain about what you said about me. It is kinda putting me down and not needed. Just argue what I say, if I sound like I am repeating my self then ignore that and tell me that I am repeating my self. I IMO do not think that is needed.
is it directed towards me or SRhyse? anyway, never tried to put you down (although reading my previous post, it kinda sounded that way). i was just trying to point out that you tend to move aimlessly with your thesis. you need a more focused attack (and a thesaurus). also if you read my last post, i actually gave you some props for being honest. some of the posts in this thread are blatant c&p material.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:03 AM   #115
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

For the Logical and contridicting part. If like I say God knows everything Blah Blah Blah.

He gave us free will. Ok, so if what I am saying makes sense to you as you summed it up. Then to say he knows everything and we have free will is a contridiction. Like others in the Omni crap. And about doing the rock.

This all leads to him only doing what isn't contridicting.

God created the worlds with a snap of his fingers.- Contridicting.

God fussed the attams and created the big bang. -- Not SO contridicting.

That is what I was getting at.

Not for the Wager, the other ideaoligy means nothing as we are not talking about them. If we are talking about the three I mentioned, then the wager holds.

If we talk about things like Hinduism, Teoism, Zen and others. Then were do they fit in a arguement about the Concept of God?

The wager it's self as all religions hold a way of life. It is belive and follow what ever the rules are and you get what it says. If you don't then you can live with more pleasures but risk torment or what ever it is. becominga fly in reincarnation from bad Karma.

Does this help?
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The Homecoming King
Spoiler:

You're captain of the football team and are heavily involved in other sports. You actually get pretty decent grades, but most people don't know that. Most girls really really REALLY want to date you, but you don't notice or care for them. They're just fangirls. Like Sasuke.
You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:46 PM   #116
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Pardon me if my replies seem truncated, I'm using iPhone.

Quote:
Shisko Shi wrote: He gave us free will.
Says who?

Quote:
Ok, so if what I am saying makes sense to you as you summed it up. Then to say he knows everything and we have free will is a contridiction. Like others in the Omni crap. And about doing the rock.
What is this omni? I probably missed that discussion. Anyway, it's still a paradoxical explanation and it shouldn't be used. Don't use paradox to prove something coz I could easily use the same method to disprove you, then it turns into a vicious cycle.

Quote:
God created the worlds with a snap of his fingers.- Contridicting.
God fussed the attams and created the big bang. -- Not SO contridicting.
That is what I was getting at.
LOL you might wanna read a few posts up. The one with me and JLI2 talking about god of gaps and Barry white.

Quote:
The wager it's self as all religions hold a way of life. It is belive and follow what ever the rules are and you get what it says. If you don't then you can live with more pleasures but risk torment or what ever it is. becominga fly in reincarnation from bad Karma.
I'll humor you and say Pascal's wager is a legitimate argument to prove god's existence (Which in my opinion, is not. Pascal proposes this wager to rationalize his own belief in the existence of god, trying to paint himself as neutral). What you've done here is attach an almost absolutist cause and effect to it, therefore reinforcing pascal's belief that god exists. I'm thinking of pulling a JLI2 and wager for status quo or just go "reject! reject! reject!"

Here's my question: what is your position? Does he exist or not? I'm confused.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #117
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

If you could understand God or everything he did/does, or even His very existent, he wouldn't be God.

Can't argue with that.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:03 AM   #118
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

@Shisko Shi

You never adequately answered any of my contradictions the thread just sort of broke off into a tangent with me talking to erndogzetroc and you giving your opinions about paradoxes. In other words my main point stands strong.

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Originally Posted by erndogzetroc View Post
this i'm really interested in. though the wager is constructed based on christian canon, i'm interested in how the wager can be applied to other ideologies. i read JLI2's responses and i don't necessarily agree with him. i'd like to continue this discussion.
What parts didn't you agree with? I don't mind reopening the discussion. I just think Pascal's wager is a really poor attempt at persuasion to Christianity that relies heavily on fear while not explaining all the alternatives any that the thousands of other world religions have to offer.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:23 PM   #119
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

My opinion? Umm those are not really my opinions.

Theses are actully arcguments used.

I talkjed about the Alpha and omaga part. That is not a contridiction when I explained it.
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You're captain of the football team and are heavily involved in other sports. You actually get pretty decent grades, but most people don't know that. Most girls really really REALLY want to date you, but you don't notice or care for them. They're just fangirls. Like Sasuke.
You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:29 PM   #120
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Default Re: Debate the Concept of God, itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erndogzetroc View Post
Pardon me if my replies seem truncated, I'm using iPhone.



Says who?



What is this omni? I probably missed that discussion. Anyway, it's still a paradoxical explanation and it shouldn't be used. Don't use paradox to prove something coz I could easily use the same method to disprove you, then it turns into a vicious cycle.



LOL you might wanna read a few posts up. The one with me and JLI2 talking about god of gaps and Barry white.



I'll humor you and say Pascal's wager is a legitimate argument to prove god's existence (Which in my opinion, is not. Pascal proposes this wager to rationalize his own belief in the existence of god, trying to paint himself as neutral). What you've done here is attach an almost absolutist cause and effect to it, therefore reinforcing pascal's belief that god exists. I'm thinking of pulling a JLI2 and wager for status quo or just go "reject! reject! reject!"

Here's my question: what is your position? Does he exist or not? I'm confused.
Yes I believe.

But is there really any evidence to prove him not? No Not that I see. It seems pretty dumb.

But I guess I look at it this way.

What do you get if you believe and he is real?

What do you get if he does not exist and you are right?

And vise versa.
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The Homecoming King
Spoiler:

You're captain of the football team and are heavily involved in other sports. You actually get pretty decent grades, but most people don't know that. Most girls really really REALLY want to date you, but you don't notice or care for them. They're just fangirls. Like Sasuke.
You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.
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