Korra vs Roy Mustang

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Hey Bradley you are hereby issued a topic ban for repeates fanwanking biased debating and failing to meet the house standards

You are a very savvy poster and can contribute to a wide range of topics but until October 4 you are not to post in any ATTLA threads failure to adhere to this will result in further sanctions

[Bradley]

EDIT: Did you put some sort of character limit on my posts? Anyways, I'm actually a big FMA fan. I'm not biased; I actually supported Mustang in the Zuko vs Mustang thread.


I haven't broken any rules. I've been civil, courteous, and honest. It seems like you are just trying to shut me up because I don't agree with you and no one has bested me in the argument. But it takes two to tango. If people really want me to stop posting in this thread, just stop giving me posts to reply to. If you are sure of your argument and most everyone agrees, why continue posting anyways?

But really, is it so much of a stretch to think that at 50 meters Korra would have enough time to raise an earth wall and activate the Avatar State, grinding Mustang down shortly thereafter?

[Bradley]

Also maybe I should remind you of the "house rules".

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Feats: consistent showings (high end and normal) are the only valid form of evidence- while calculations and other methods of fan interpretation of these feats can be presented in the BG’s nothing trumps consistent feats everything takes else in canon takes a back seat to on panel evidence:

I've simply been asking for feats, and no one has given them.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

BMC seems to vehemently disagree with me yet I'm not topic banning him so that's a cop out

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

BMC seems to vehemently disagree with me yet I'm not topic banning him so that's a cop out

You aren't annoyed by BMC's posts. That's essentially what it comes down to. If you choose to be annoyed by me that doesn't mean I've broken any rules. Really, what have I violated? Making an argument that you don't like is not against the rules. If we're not allowed to disagree then the section is pointless.

And is my core argument even that bad? Really, is it impossible for Korra to raise an earth wall at 50 meters from Mustang and then enter the Avatar State? Yes or no?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Bradley

You aren't annoyed by BMC's posts. That's essentially what it comes down to. If you choose to be annoyed by me that doesn't mean I've broken any rules. Really, what have I violated? Making an argument that you don't like is not against the rules. If we're not allowed to disagree then the section is pointless.

And is my core argument even that bad? Really, is it impossible for Korra to raise an earth wall at 50 meters from Mustang and then enter the Avatar State? Yes or no?

Are you seriously..continuing?

dude I'm giving you a chance..do you want to be temp'd?

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Are you seriously..continuing?

dude I'm giving you a chance..do you want to be temp'd?

I'm asking for a real justification for abusing your mod powers to silence me. I haven't broken any rules and you can't even say something is wrong with my argument. Meanwhile Cult of Personality still gets to skulk around the BG. Of course I don't want to be temped, but I'm not going to sit like an obedient dog whose owner is mad that it's barking.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Bradley

Argument from ignorance fallacy. Just because no one has reacted to it does not mean no one can react to it. No non-waterbender has ever resisted bloodbending; does that mean bloodbending would work on anyone without waterbending? Could Tarrlok bloodbend Sloth, or Father? No. Evidence has to be provided that Tarrlok could bloodbend them, because Sloth and Father are capable of feats that no person in Avatar could do. Same with Korra; she has options to react and defend against Roy's alchemy which his opponents never had. You must provide evidence that Roy is fast enough/powerful enough to overcome these defenses.



Didn't move? Envy was charging toward Mustang. He didn't try to dodge because he wasn't expecting it (he thought Mustang couldn't use his large blasts at close range without killing himself; unfortunately for Envy Roy could do pinpoint strikes). Lust was facing opposite of Roy; she had to turn around to try to attack him and he could blast her before she turned around. Both cases are still at close range, which does not prove Roy could attack too fast for Korra to react at 50 meters.

Evidence for the sky being blue would obviously be a picture of the sky. Evidence for Roy's spark moving fast would obviously be a statement by a character of how fast it moved, an on-panel time frame of the attack, or his attack hitting a character with the ability to dodge or defend and is known to have superhuman reaction feats. Roy has none of those.

Korra's usual range doesn't matter because the fight starts at 50 meters and according to BG rules Korra will fight to the best of her ability. That means activating the Avatar State as soon as possible, after which Roy really stands no chance.

1.) No, sigh, lol I'm not new to the logical fallacies game. I'm not saying there is no one who could react to Mustang's flame alchemy, just that Envy and Lust couldn't and neither can Korra. I'm saying that time time delay between his snaps and the explosion are too small for Korra to exploit to perform bending (which requires martial arts movements). \

2.) You're asking for evidence that an instant attack is instant. And that was the purpose of my sky example. Roy's attacks occur within the same animation or within one or two panels. When Envy first got hit he was mid-sentence then he got hit mid-sentence AGAIN. Roy wasn't prepping his attacks while Envy was speaking he just snapped his fingers and Envy ignited.

This has been your ENTIRE argument

Opponents: Roy ignites Korra with his instant flame alchemy

You: Show me your evidence that it's instant?

Opponents: Every time Roy's used it, the explosion happens almost exactly when he snaps, no one's reacted to it, every time he snaps the explosion happens at the same time

You: Prove to me that his instant attack is instant?

Opponents: You want us to prove an instant attack is instant? It's in the nature of the attack

That's why there's so much frustration here. That's why IWD wants to ban you from this thread. It's because you keep asking for an explanation of the self-evident. All we can do at this point is give you a definition of instant.

Now at the beginning of this thread I was willing to concede that Korra can possibly react to the attack at 50 meters. Maybe by subtly perceiving a flame trail right after Roy snaps, and thus reacting and countering at the same time that he attacks. That was the only way I had Korra surviving. With a good enough distance and some knowledge she should be able to complete her defense the moment Roy attacks. But you seem to be under the impression that no matter where she is after Roy snaps she can just wave her hands and firebend the trail away when that just doesn't make any sense because of Roy's attack speed. There is hardly any delay. Korra has to move at essentially the same time as he does or she can't stop the attack.

3.) I rewatched the episode just to make sure. What are you talking about? She calmly entered the state? She was sitting there crying and someone appears behind her, she says "Go Away" and then he says "But you called me here" Aang appears and says "You are finally connected with your spiritual self...when we hit our lowest point we are open to the greatest change." Korra's eyes begin to glow and she ascends in a tornado blowing out fire, pulling ice pillars from the ground and summoning tidal waves from the ocean. That was her using the Avatar state. Yes it was epic but no she was not calm and as Aang explicitly stated (and I pointed out earlier) there were special circumstances surrounding her transformation.

Changing a story or leaving out special details necessary for a feat is also grounds for temporary banning from a thread.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Bradley

EDIT: Did you put some sort of character limit on my posts? Anyways, I'm actually a big FMA fan. I'm not biased; I actually supported Mustang in the Zuko vs Mustang thread.


I haven't broken any rules. I've been civil, courteous, and honest. It seems like you are just trying to shut me up because I don't agree with you and no one has bested me in the argument. But it takes two to tango. If people really want me to stop posting in this thread, just stop giving me posts to reply to. If you are sure of your argument and most everyone agrees, why continue posting anyways?

But really, is it so much of a stretch to think that at 50 meters Korra would have enough time to raise an earth wall and activate the Avatar State, grinding Mustang down shortly thereafter?

Actually you lost a long time ago. You haven't provided an instance or a legitimate way Korra could block mustang. You tried to use Al seeing a spark. You failed on multiple levels with that. One that is a feat for Al. Two he knew the mechanics of Mustangs attacks which Korra doesnt. Three the major characters of FMA are faster than Korra. You ask for proof which of this which is asinine. A world where the minor characters uses guns vs a world that doesn't.

Now onto point number 2. The issue at hand is you are using fallacy. If you are going to use it at least don't make it so easy to see someone with down syndrome can notice it. You think of yourself as holding an arguement but you are not.

Then the final questions. How does Korra block an explosion she knows nothing about? How does Korra perform a full combat sequence faster than Roy snaps his fingers?

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Bradley

Why would it have to be air tight? The earth wall would push Mustang's gas trail out of the way. Mustang hasn't made explosions behind solid objects before. And if Korra has some knowledge of Mustang's abilities she should know to raise a defense if Mustang sends anything at her.

Read what you just said there. It makes no sense.

But to help you out:
Another name for something not air tight is porous i.e can't push gas.

You need to show that this gal can react to an event faster than a tenth of a second. I doubt you can do that.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Bradley

I'm asking for a real justification for abusing your mod powers to silence me. I haven't broken any rules and you can't even say something is wrong with my argument. Meanwhile Cult of Personality still gets to skulk around the BG. Of course I don't want to be temped, but I'm not going to sit like an obedient dog whose owner is mad that it's barking.

CoP may not be the nicest person alive but he isn't wrong and he is calling.you out, you meanwhile have done gymnastics to argue this match- you have downplayed and dismissed and even ignored examples like the drake feat

Simply put- you may have been civil but.your dogged determination to fanwank makes you more guilty

Now take your ass out of this thread are we clear?

[Wooster]

Awe, but I want to see his answer to my porous wall posit.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Awe, but I want to see his answer to my porous wall posit.

it'll be a very articulate wall of denial of course

but knowing him he'll do it any way

[Wooster]

Although true be told, I am sure most writers would assume a wall blocks gas.

But that hardly matters because it does not seems she can do anything in a tenth of a second, or, I assume, he would have shown an example.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Although true be told, I am sure most writers would assume a wall blocks gas.

But that hardly matters because it does not seems she can do anything in a tenth of a second, or, I assume, he would have shown an example.

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined..

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standards

someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayer

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined..

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standards

someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayer

But that makes sense. At that point you are protecting yourself from the blast, not the gas.
Well, there is the feat that means putting up a wall is pointless

I don't think it is unreasonable point. Assuming Roy can snap like every other human is standard. A spark moving along a gas trail is extremely fast at least faster than a snap. If you don't believe this, light a match in a room full of natural gas.
If you can't move faster than the snap, you aren't moving faster than the spark.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

1.) No, sigh, lol I'm not new to the logical fallacies game. I'm not saying there is no one who could react to Mustang's flame alchemy, just that Envy and Lust couldn't and neither can Korra. I'm saying that time time delay between his snaps and the explosion are too small for Korra to exploit to perform bending (which requires martial arts movements).

"You keep asking us to give you the time it takes for the trail to reach it's target and that's something that's impossible for us to do because no one's shown the ability to react to the trail."

You acted like the detail that no one has reacted Roy's attacks is an excuse to not show the time it takes for the trail to reach its target. And you still insist that Korra can't react to it based on that. That's an argument from ignorance fallacy. You are continuing to ignore the fact that Korra has different defense options than Lust and Envy which would allow her to defend against Roy's blasts.

2.) You're asking for evidence that an instant attack is instant. And that was the purpose of my sky example. Roy's attacks occur within the same animation or within one or two panels. When Envy first got hit he was mid-sentence then he got hit mid-sentence AGAIN. Roy wasn't prepping his attacks while Envy was speaking he just snapped his fingers and Envy ignited.

This has been your ENTIRE argument

Opponents: Roy ignites Korra with his instant flame alchemy

You: Show me your evidence that it's instant?

Opponents: Every time Roy's used it, the explosion happens almost exactly when he snaps, no one's reacted to it, every time he snaps the explosion happens at the same time

You: Prove to me that his instant attack is instant?

Opponents: You want us to prove an instant attack is instant? It's in the nature of the attack

That's why there's so much frustration here. That's why IWD wants to ban you from this thread. It's because you keep asking for an explanation of the self-evident. All we can do at this point is give you a definition of instant.

It's...not self-evident. You are using circular reasoning. I am asking for evidence that the attack is instant, and it's not a defense to just reply "Because it's instant". I mean, could I say that Korra's instant bending is instant? If you challenge me on it, do I get to say that Korra's instant bending is self-evident so I don't have to defend it? No. It's not self-evident, and neither is Roy's attack.

Now at the beginning of this thread I was willing to concede that Korra can possibly react to the attack at 50 meters. Maybe by subtly perceiving a flame trail right after Roy snaps, and thus reacting and countering at the same time that he attacks. That was the only way I had Korra surviving. With a good enough distance and some knowledge she should be able to complete her defense the moment Roy attacks. But you seem to be under the impression that no matter where she is after Roy snaps she can just wave her hands and firebend the trail away when that just doesn't make any sense because of Roy's attack speed. There is hardly any delay. Korra has to move at essentially the same time as he does or she can't stop the attack.

No, my argument is that Korra could have a chance to react at 50 meters. If she was as close as, say, Envy, she probably wouldn't be able to react.

3.) I rewatched the episode just to make sure. What are you talking about? She calmly entered the state? She was sitting there crying and someone appears behind her, she says "Go Away" and then he says "But you called me here" Aang appears and says "You are finally connected with your spiritual self...when we hit our lowest point we are open to the greatest change." Korra's eyes begin to glow and she ascends in a tornado blowing out fire, pulling ice pillars from the ground and summoning tidal waves from the ocean. That was her using the Avatar state. Yes it was epic but no she was not calm and as Aang explicitly stated (and I pointed out earlier) there were special circumstances surrounding her transformation.

Changing a story or leaving out special details necessary for a feat is also grounds for temporary banning from a thread.

Speaking of leaving out details, you just left out the details that as Aang was speaking, Korra was smiling (thus, she was not sad anymore), Aang used energybending on Korra, and that Korra has a very calm expression as she entered the Avatar State. There may have been special circumstances, but then I refer to the moment in the book 2 preview where she activates the Avatar State at will. Either then or sometime afterward she learns to control the Avatar State.

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Actually you lost a long time ago. You haven't provided an instance or a legitimate way Korra could block mustang. You tried to use Al seeing a spark. You failed on multiple levels with that. One that is a feat for Al. Two he knew the mechanics of Mustangs attacks which Korra doesnt. Three the major characters of FMA are faster than Korra. You ask for proof which of this which is asinine. A world where the minor characters uses guns vs a world that doesn't.

Um...what is this Al seeing a spark that you speak of? I never brought it up.

Now onto point number 2. The issue at hand is you are using fallacy. If you are going to use it at least don't make it so easy to see someone with down syndrome can notice it. You think of yourself as holding an arguement but you are not.

...what fallacy?

Then the final questions. How does Korra block an explosion she knows nothing about? How does Korra perform a full combat sequence faster than Roy snaps his fingers?

She has basic knowledge of Roy's explosions as per BG rules. And the issue is not that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers; it's that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers and the spark trail takes to go 50 meters.

Originally Posted by Wooster

Read what you just said there. It makes no sense.

But to help you out:
Another name for something not air tight is porous i.e can't push gas.

A non-airtight object can interact with gas. Try waving a cloth fan in your face. Is the cloth airtight? No. Does it still blow wind in your face? Yes.

So while gas might be able to seep through an earth wall, the gas trail from Roy's alchemy would still be disturbed if Korra were to raise an earth wall in the middle of it. In order for Roy to hit Korra with an explosion behind the wall, there would need to be enough uninterrupted water vapor inside the wall to create a continuous strand of hydrogen and oxygen gas for the spark to travel along. To my knowledge, Roy has never shown the ability to do such a thing. It would be really simple though if you could find a feat of Roy causing an explosion behind a large solid object.

You need to show that this gal can react to an event faster than a tenth of a second. I doubt you can do that.

You need to prove that Roy can snap and the spark can travel 50 meters faster than a tenth of a second first before I have to show Korra can react in that time.

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

CoP may not be the nicest person alive but he isn't wrong and he is calling.you out, you meanwhile have done gymnastics to argue this match- you have downplayed and dismissed and even ignored examples like the drake feat

Drake feat? What?

Simply put- you may have been civil but.your dogged determination to fanwank makes you more guilty

I'm just as big a fan of FMA as I am of Avatar. I love Roy, I just don't agree with the wank he gets from other FMA fans. Your accusations are false.

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined..

Example?

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standards

As I mentioned before, Korra was able to fight Amon, who has reacted to bender lightning from Lightning Bolt Zolt at point blank range.

Spoiler:

someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayer

IIRC I argued that Katara beat Roy as well, thanks to bloodbending. Maybe that deserves a round 2, Tarrlok or Amon vs. Mustang.

[Larry01239]

Ban time?

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

No. Regardless of whether anyone here thinks Bradley is wanking, a bad debater, or whatever else has been said, he's legitimately debating, not flaming, not trolling, not being an idiot. Disagreeing doesn't warrant a ban. That's the whole point of this section.

[Devils Lawyer]

[QUOTE=Bradley;625]

Um...what is this Al seeing a spark that you speak of? I never brought it up.

Then what us your basis for claiming Korra can block explosions. She has no feats to support your claim.

.

She has basic knowledge of Roy's explosions as per BG rules. And the issue is not that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers; it's that

Basic knowledge not full. Not does she have experience against the attack. Yes the issue is
her reaction speed. There is no other issue otherwise she would be stronger.