Korra vs Roy Mustang

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

At the end of Book 1 it was by emotional turbulence caused by her overwhelming guilt at the failure to protect her friends. You can't cite book 2 because you don't know the circumstances behind it yet. There have been no episodes where she underwent any of the training Aang did to control his chakras.

No, it wasn't caused by emotional turbulence. Aang appeared to her and used energybending. Korra calmly entered the Avatar State and exited afterward. She was in control. Though you have a point that we don't know the total context of the season 2 moment.

You have this slightly irritating habit of responding to one or two sentences in a detailed post. It's not CIS if that's actually a part of her character. We can't just dismiss any time Guy Gardner acts like a major d*** and does something stupid as CIS because that's his real personality. Korra is inexperienced, short tempered, and overconfident in battle it's not CIS it's how she acted throughout the entire series.

That's...exactly what CIS is. Character Induced Stupidity.

But that's not relevant to my main point that once she gets close to fight Roy he precision aims at her eyeballs. It's not a general flame she can wave away, it's a trail of oxygen molecules that explode instantaneously as soon as the snap occurs, at that close range she doesn't have time to react to it, just like Envy couldn't. I was willing to bend and accept that with some good distance Korra can react but this is the girl who's been tied up by some rope grapples, captured by hulking robots, and blindsided numerous times I won't just let you say she can react to a near instantaneous explosion at close range.

I must now ask for evidence that the ignition is "near instananeous" and too fast for Korra to react to. Envy didn't have firebending to defend against it.

[ILIKEPIE]

Standard BG fights do not exempt the contestants from CIS.

That's the rule on it.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by ILIKEPIE

Standard BG fights do not exempt the contestants from CIS.

That's the rule on it.

Ah, ok. Still, I'm not seeing how Korra's character traits are enough to tip this fight in Mustang's favor. She has at least basic knowledge of Mustang's abilities (unlike when she first fought the chi blockers) so she knows how to defend.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Bradley

No, it wasn't caused by emotional turbulence. Aang appeared to her and used energybending. Korra calmly entered the Avatar State and exited afterward. She was in control. Though you have a point that we don't know the total context of the season 2 moment.

That's...exactly what CIS is. Character Induced Stupidity.

I must now ask for evidence that the ignition is "near instananeous" and too fast for Korra to react to. Envy didn't have firebending to defend against it.

1.) Yes he appeared to her when she was extremely depressed after failing to protect everyone, emotional turbulence doesn't have to be a fit or rage or fear, it can also be deep sadness.

2.) CIS is used for things like battle actions that have significant effects on a character's ability, making them perform feats they aren't normally capable of or causing them to execute a subpar performance in spite of their skill set. It's used as an explanation for why someone doesn't fight within the normal range of their capabilities. An example would be if Naruto were to currently fight with Sakura and get knocked out by one punch despite having the speed to run laps around her before she can even swing. CIS is not used for mistakes a character makes due to a lack of experience or focus in battle, or their own personal flaws that affect how they fight. Korra getting caught by those things wasn't CIS, it was just her not being able to keep up in such a high paced, high level battle.

3.) The explosion is instantaneous as soon as the snap is heard. This was part of the explanation of Roy's flame alchemy. The snap isn't caused by Roy snapping his fingers to create the flame trail to his target, the snap is the signal of the combustion that's going to occur instantaneously afterward, it's like hearing a boom during an explosion. So if you had to scale the speed of Roy's attacks it would be the time it takes for Roy to snap his fingers, create the oxygen trail, then for a snapping sound to be heard as oxygen molecules explode.

Korra is aiming for the first two steps for her reaction time. You have her as reacting to him snapping his fingers and creating the trail which takes time from a distance but at close range Korra hasn't demonstrated the reaction feats to bend away the trail. She has been punched, snared, and grabbed at close range before all actions that take just as much time as Roy's flame alchemy. It doesn't matter that Envy doesn't know firebending, he didn't even have time to run before he got lit on fire. He was just sitting there writhing in pain, he only got away thanks to Homunculi regen. and Roy wanting to take his time and watch Envy burn slowly.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Do you hate Korra IWD? Especially that she doesn't start in Avatar state.

ah but much has been said in the way of their capabilities of late

Originally Posted by Larry01239

...so did you create a stomp thread for any specific reason?

the same reason that whitebeard vs Madara topic arose

it serves its purpose

also the entire section stands within a hairs breath of annihilation, you have friggen outsider Quasis coming in here and issuing orders- there is no BG'er staffer with any administrative power..we are cut off and alone here do you understand me? surrounded by enemies who want us shut down and demodded..and your going to cause such a ruckus that it brings in outside heat? Do you have any idea what could happen?

Calm down dudes, I'm not asking you go PBS but overt flaming is a total no no

that being said CoP buddy leave the accusations of the fornication of siblings and animals out of the topic if you wanna discuss how this guy plows the plow horses go VM on NF...and Bradley/Oman easy does it on the mass reporting no one likes a bawwer stand your ground and debate you may not always be right or objective but you are very good at mustering an argument And arguing it with relentlessness and I welcome it here..

now that being said..let's go back to the discussion at hand and let's do it..right

gentlemen..commence...Debate!!

[Cult of Personality]

Feh. I regret nothing. It deserves it.

Waiting on BMC to reply since he's the only one on Korra's side with the slightest shred of credibility (irony, considering I hate him).

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

1.) Yes he appeared to her when she was extremely depressed after failing to protect everyone, emotional turbulence doesn't have to be a fit or rage or fear, it can also be deep sadness.

She wasn't really sad at the moment either.

2.) CIS is used for things like battle actions that have significant effects on a character's ability, making them perform feats they aren't normally capable of or causing them to execute a subpar performance in spite of their skill set. It's used as an explanation for why someone doesn't fight within the normal range of their capabilities. An example would be if Naruto were to currently fight with Sakura and get knocked out by one punch despite having the speed to run laps around her before she can even swing. CIS is not used for mistakes a character makes due to a lack of experience or focus in battle, or their own personal flaws that affect how they fight. Korra getting caught by those things wasn't CIS, it was just her not being able to keep up in such a high paced, high level battle.

Ok. It wasn't about her not being able to keep up, though. She had no idea what she was up against, and opponents were physically faster than anything Mustang's demonstrated. These are not advantages that Mustang is going to have.

3.) The explosion is instantaneous as soon as the snap is heard. This was part of the explanation of Roy's flame alchemy. The snap isn't caused by Roy snapping his fingers to create the flame trail to his target, the snap is the signal of the combustion that's going to occur instantaneously afterward, it's like hearing a boom during an explosion. So if you had to scale the speed of Roy's attacks it would be the time it takes for Roy to snap his fingers, create the oxygen trail, then for a snapping sound to be heard as oxygen molecules explode.

I asked for evidence to the claim that his explosion is instantaneous, but you basically just repeated your claim.. I know we can't exactly post scans here, but reference a chapter or episode so I can go look it up.

Korra is aiming for the first two steps for her reaction time. You have her as reacting to him snapping his fingers and creating the trail which takes time from a distance but at close range Korra hasn't demonstrated the reaction feats to bend away the trail. She has been punched, snared, and grabbed at close range before all actions that take just as much time as Roy's flame alchemy. It doesn't matter that Envy doesn't know firebending, he didn't even have time to run before he got lit on fire. He was just sitting there writhing in pain, he only got away thanks to Homunculi regen. and Roy wanting to take his time and watch Envy burn slowly.

Korra has been punched at close range by combatants who are physically faster than Mustang. Korra also has successfully blocked people at close range (the firebending test, Triple Threat Triads). Again, you need evidence that Mustang's attacks are particularly fast.

[joon61]

Dammit man.
You are the only one saying korra wins this.
She loses,mustang is just to powerful.
This is what i feel.
This should be a rule.
ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ THE MANGA OR WATCHED THE ANIME,SHOULD NOT DEBATE ON THE CHARACTER FROM THAT ANIME.

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

also the entire section stands within a hairs breath of annihilation

How certain are you of this?

Originally Posted by joon61

Dammit man.
You are the only one saying korra wins this.
She loses,mustang is just to powerful.
This is what i feel.
This should be a rule.
ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ THE MANGA OR WATCHED THE ANIME,SHOULD NOT DEBATE ON THE CHARACTER FROM THAT ANIME.

Well he has stated he has for both. Just different interpetation on his part.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Bradley

She wasn't really sad at the moment either.

Ok. It wasn't about her not being able to keep up, though. She had no idea what she was up against, and opponents were physically faster than anything Mustang's demonstrated. These are not advantages that Mustang is going to have.

I asked for evidence to the claim that his explosion is instantaneous, but you basically just repeated your claim.. I know we can't exactly post scans here, but reference a chapter or episode so I can go look it up.

Korra has been punched at close range by combatants who are physically faster than Mustang. Korra also has successfully blocked people at close range (the firebending test, Triple Threat Triads). Again, you need evidence that Mustang's attacks are particularly fast.

1.) She was sad. She felt like she hadn't fulfilled her duties as the Avatar. This isn't debatable it's her own words. Like Rukia said when she saw Ichigo after his fight with Grimmjow "Those eyes don't look like the eyes of someone who just won." Korra was reeling from a Pyrrhic victory and so she had the emotional disposition to enter the Avatar state.

2.) Her getting captured happened multiple times and how often do people know exactly what they're up against in a fight. Her getting caught was a testament to her lack of skill. Sorry to break this to you but you've been overrating this teenage girl the entire thread.

3.) I mean you can continue to ask for evidence all you want but I'm not sure what you're asking for? It's exactly like the example I mentioned the snap for his attacks is like a boom in an explosion. You could ask "Well can you prove to me the boom happens instantaneously with an explosion?" and all I could tell you to do is look at it. That's what happens. Here are the steps to Roy's flame alchemy...

-Initiate friction with snap
-Alchemy chain reaction begins with transmutation circle on his gloves and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere form a trail to the target
-As oxygen molecules combust, the explosion is created and a snap is heard

If you are asking me where in the manga / anime this is explained. I honestly don't remember since I watched and read the series in bits and pieces but if you're trying to dispute a claim that no one else in the debate has had a problem with you do the research for yourself and tell me where my explanation is flawed.

4.) Umm I'm just going to pull your tactic out here and ask how are the equalists physically faster than Roy Mustang? In case you forgot the Equalists are just average citizens who got trained in advanced martial arts. None of them have the powers of benders. So saying they are physically faster than Roy who's a trained soldier with an impressive evasion feat is just you bending the argument to suit your side. The only people in Avatar with superhuman speed or reaction feats are benders like Aang who could run faster than the wind or Ozai who could use his fire jets to fly and keep up with Aang. I'd suspect the only non benders with comparable feats would be very high level master martial artists like Ty Lee or Sokka's sword master (maybe Sokka and Suki in the future after they'd trained more).

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity

1.) She was sad. She felt like she hadn't fulfilled her duties as the Avatar. This isn't debatable it's her own words. Like Rukia said when she saw Ichigo after his fight with Grimmjow "Those eyes don't look like the eyes of someone who just won." Korra was reeling from a Pyrrhic victory and so she had the emotional disposition to enter the Avatar state.

Have you actually watched the end of Legend of Korra? She enters the Avatar State after Aang appears and uses energybending to restore her bending. She is not sad after that point.

2.) Her getting captured happened multiple times and how often do people know exactly what they're up against in a fight. Her getting caught was a testament to her lack of skill. Sorry to break this to you but you've been overrating this teenage girl the entire thread.

She got "captured" all of twice in the show. The first time, her guard was down and she was vastly outnumbered by the Equalists. The second, she was going to win before Tarrlok did something she completely did not expect: he bloodbended her. Mustang doesn't the advantage of numbers, the advantage of surprise, or the advantage of having a broken power that could completely shut her down. Whatever lack of skill those scenarios showed is something Mustang can't exploit, so it's irrelevant.

3.) I mean you can continue to ask for evidence all you want but I'm not sure what you're asking for? It's exactly like the example I mentioned the snap for his attacks is like a boom in an explosion. You could ask "Well can you prove to me the boom happens instantaneously with an explosion?" and all I could tell you to do is look at it. That's what happens. Here are the steps to Roy's flame alchemy...

-Initiate friction with snap
-Alchemy chain reaction begins with transmutation circle on his gloves and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere form a trail to the target
-As oxygen molecules combust, the explosion is created and a snap is heard

If you are asking me where in the manga / anime this is explained. I honestly don't remember since I watched and read the series in bits and pieces but if you're trying to dispute a claim that no one else in the debate has had a problem with you do the research for yourself and tell me where my explanation is flawed.

I know the steps to Roy's alchemy. I'm asking for evidence for the idea that the spark travels from Roy's glove to the target site in a way that's too fast for Korra to react to. Simply explaining the process doesn't prove that.

4.) Umm I'm just going to pull your tactic out here and ask how are the equalists physically faster than Roy Mustang? In case you forgot the Equalists are just average citizens who got trained in advanced martial arts. None of them have the powers of benders. So saying they are physically faster than Roy who's a trained soldier with an impressive evasion feat is just you bending the argument to suit your side. The only people in Avatar with superhuman speed or reaction feats are benders like Aang who could run faster than the wind or Ozai who could use his fire jets to fly and keep up with Aang. I'd suspect the only non benders with comparable feats would be very high level master martial artists like Ty Lee or Sokka's sword master (maybe Sokka and Suki in the future after they'd trained more).

The Equalists have martial arts training and proficiency; Roy Mustang has never demonstrated martial arts proficiency or really any sort of agility. You don't have to be superhuman to simply faster than an average human.

[Nigoyukai]

If this is a no-knowledge straight-up deathmatch, Roy ignites Korra's eyes. After that, she's useless. He'll just burn her to a crisp.

[Wooster]

I've been to Lake Havasu.
Umm, in terms of the fight..they both die of dehydration. I have spoken

Edit: Now that I read the thread and have some base understadning of these characters provided by the posters here:

It matters little if Korra can bend the fire that Roy creates. As I understand it, Roy creates fire that expoldes.
This means that even if Korra removes all the "fire," the explosive force from igniting her in the first places will blow her to bits.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I've been to Lake Havasu.
Umm, in terms of the fight..they both die of dehydration. I have spoken

Edit: Now that I read the thread and have some base understadning of these characters provided by the posters here:

It matters little if Korra can bend the fire that Roy creates. As I understand it, Roy creates fire that expoldes.
This means that even if Korra removes all the "fire," the explosive force from igniting her in the first places will blow her to bits.

Firebenders can protect from explosions. ie when the pirates blew up Zuko's ship and he survived, or when Zuko protected himself from one of Combustion Man's explosions. Korra could also just put out the spark before it reaches the gas pocket, or raise an earth wall in defense.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'd like to know how Oman thinks Korra can defend from having the air in her lungs exploded

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

I'd like to know how Oman thinks Korra can defend from having the air in her lungs exploded

I'd like to know when Mustang has done such a thing. And it's probably best to not confuse other posters by calling me by my NF handle.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Bradley

I'd like to know when Mustang has done such a thing. And it's probably best to not confuse other posters by calling me by my NF handle.

in the 03 anime (and I honestly have no idea why we're using him)

and given the pinpoint accuracy and superior reflexes of his canon version I find it amusing that it's suggested korra can just stop him from blowing her face off

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

in the 03 anime (and I honestly have no idea why we're using him)

What episode?

and given the pinpoint accuracy and superior reflexes of his canon version I find it amusing that it's suggested korra can just stop him from blowing her face off

Accuracy is irrelevant if Korra is able to block it. And I've yet to see any evidence of "superior reflexes" for Roy. If nothing else, Korra can just raise an earth wall to momentarily hold off Roy's attacks, enter the Avatar State, and then it's all over for Roy.

[JLI2infinity]

Originally Posted by Bradley

Have you actually watched the end of Legend of Korra? She enters the Avatar State after Aang appears and uses energybending to restore her bending. She is not sad after that point.



She got "captured" all of twice in the show. The first time, her guard was down and she was vastly outnumbered by the Equalists. The second, she was going to win before Tarrlok did something she completely did not expect: he bloodbended her. Mustang doesn't the advantage of numbers, the advantage of surprise, or the advantage of having a broken power that could completely shut her down. Whatever lack of skill those scenarios showed is something Mustang can't exploit, so it's irrelevant.



I know the steps to Roy's alchemy. I'm asking for evidence for the idea that the spark travels from Roy's glove to the target site in a way that's too fast for Korra to react to. Simply explaining the process doesn't prove that.



The Equalists have martial arts training and proficiency; Roy Mustang has never demonstrated martial arts proficiency or really any sort of agility. You don't have to be superhuman to simply faster than an average human.

1.) Oh you're talking about the second time she entered the Avatar state, I see. This entire time I thought you were referring to the first time where she had to use spirit world hax to bring people's bending back which was kind of weak. TBH if you want to count that as her willingly entering the Avatar state that's fine but for now I will chock that up to fan service and PIS. She has had no formal training for entering the Avatar state, and this was probably Dimartino and Konietzko trying to give the fans one more look at the Avatar state before the show went on hiatus, and possibly because the series was so short we didn't get to see it in action that often. Similar to the book 2 preview we don't know the circumstances behind her entering the Avatar state at that moment, she could've been out there for hours meditating. Entering the Avatar state has never been instant. Even Aang who had a natural proclivity to the spirit world and received training had to create an Earth dome to meditate in so he could prep himself in his fight against Ozai, with no context you can't say Korra can do that mid battle.

2.) It's not just about getting captured. It's about getting hit. She's been hit by stray weapons or basic attacks numerous times. This is just proof that her reaction feats aren't as stellar as you're making them out to be. A giant robot caught her in a grapple, she didn't just Earthbend a wall in front of her because she wasn't fast enough. It wasn't about her being outnumbered either.

3.) All you've been doing is asking for the time delay in Roy's attack. Yet it's a question that can't be answered except for the PIS scenario where Ed was dodging his snaps in the 2003 anime no one's shown the ability to react to it. The best examples I can think of are Envy not being able to outrun it or attack before it was used and a feat I'm sure you'll use to your benefit, where Al got up a giant stone wall to shield himself from the explosion a second before Roy lit Lust on fire. However, in the Al scenario Roy was using some makeshift tools for his flame alchemy (no gloves and a lighter for a spark), he announced his arrival, and the explosion wasn't actually targeting Al. But to best answer your question in FMA Brotherhood literally a second after Roy clicked the lighter / snapped his fingers, the explosion occurred. In his fight with Lust the explosions were happening in the same animation as him clicking the lighter. That is much too fast for Korra to react to at close range.

4.) Roy has never demonstrated any sort of agility? He's a solider that survived in a war zone. He wasn't casually strolling through the battlefield. He was moving around in a life or death situation.

[Uchiha Sora]

Why are people referencing the anime? is it canon?