is the fourth the best hokage?

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

OK first off let me clear something up here, I'm not saying he did miss his brother when he made ET, all I am saying is that since he never finished the jutsu and deemed it forbidden, that you don't know if he intended to play with the dead, he may have accidentally discovered that the jutsu could raise the dead and stopped right there. For all we know ET could have been an attempt at a reanimation jutsu like Chiyo's, but once he figured out that it didn't work that way then he might have stopped.
^this^ is assuming! My point still stands that he should have destoryed the jutsu or sealed it away. Calling it forrbidden makes it even more desirable! Thats like telling a lil kid " Don't touch that button" Overall ET was created by Tobirama and it has caused NOTHING BUT DEATH

Basically the worst thing you've got on Tobirama is ET and I only bring up Hashirama's cells and the wrong he's done, because seem to think that choices made after someones death puts them at fault.
Yes! You are responsible for your actions/what you have created.

So if the person who made bleach at fault for it being a key ingredient of mustard gas? No they are not.
At least Bleach has done good and not bad. If you try to give Tobirama a pass for ET you are giving Hashirama a pass for his cells being stolen. Thus you are giving a pass to Hasriama's ONLY mistake ... but Tobirama still has mistakes still did not do much for his village

You keep saying that Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha, but he did, if he did not he would have left Kagami behind to be decoy while he got away(kagami would not have been able to handle all 20! He was weaker than Tobirama. Tobirama wanted to look like he trusted some of the Uchiha... WHICH IS WHY HE ESTABLISHED THE POLICE FORCE! It was a trap/tricking the Uchiha, a scam if you will), in fact he gave Kagami a shot at being Hokage, if Kagami would have offered himself up them Tobirama would have recognized him as being ready and the right choice to be Hokage(Butttttt he did not. ). If he didn't trust the Uchiha Kagami wouldn't have been on him team to begin with.
"Keep your friends close..... and your enemies CLOSER"
THat is why TObirama had an Uchiha on the team. ALso just because he did not trust them does not mean they are weak. Having a skilled Uchiha on your team makes you stronger. TObirama wanted to look like the trsuted the Uchiha

It does matter if he has wood style becase even if he weren't brought back by ET, Obito was going to bring him back with the rinnegan he stole from Nagato and then we'd still be dealing him right now.
Exactly! The fact that he had Wood style did not matter much

Yes I do think Hashirama could have sealed them all, because just look at it this way. The Uzumaki were still around and in great number and while they were around, any seal they made and put on someone or something stayed unless that person just so happened to be female and giving birth. So once again he could have sealed them away.
There are a few things wrong with this theory
-Hashirama may have not made the treaty with the Uzuamki's yet or may not have been known or so close to them

-If Hashirama did this than the Leaf/whirpool village would have been attacked sooner and much harsher due to their bijju and theri power in sealings. (See this is a great example of what I said before! The Leaf would be tooo powerful and people would try to destroy them just like how people destroyed the Uzumaki's. )

_Being a jinkurki is not fun and not all of them would be willing to be one

-Maybe Hashirama wanted to give them a bijju because he thought the bijju might destroy the village and weaken the village. FOr example Gyuki (8tails) took a lot of lies and took the 3RK near death


Burning someone body is no harsh or disrespectful, in [s]ome cultures it actually the highest form of honor to have your body burned upon death, in the old days, only people who were considered to be heroes got their bodies burned.
Key word SOME
Also it would be VERY unlikely for someone that far in the past to forsee this happeining

As for Tobirama's ET, you can't undo what you've already done and he may not have been the only one working on the jutsu so for all we know, he might have thought he destroyed all the notes, but someone else who was too smart for their good could have kept their notes and continued to work on it.
^This is ASSUMING^

Here I can assume as well!
Maybe madara sold hashirama's DNA to Oro?!?!?!?
You can not prove it so do not say it please
THE POINT IS THAT ET GOT INTO ENEMY HANDS


You say they still had the Uchiha and the Senju during the other wars, but none of those wars would have come up if Hashirama didn't give them all WMD's

Proof^? At least their was peace when Hashirama was hokage and there was not for Tobirama.

THE POINT IS THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN WAR
EVERYBODY vs. THE LEAF

^does that sound better than Iwa vs Kiri vs Kumo vs Kono vs Sand ???
HECK NO

At least the other villages could foucs on other villages instead of just one

Tobirama was not a fail Senju, I'm not sure who said this, but only Hashirama had wood style and healing abilities.(lol did you forget TSUANDE!!! HAHAHAHAHA The Senju could not seal, that was Uzumaki's.(Hashirama also had sealing abilities... how do you think he sealed Kurama? ALso Tsunade has Yin seal (the tattao on her forehead)

I said this... afterall he was the weakest Senju IMO


Yes Tobirama was killed by 20 Kumo ninja, THAT WERE AND i YET AGAIN repeat that they were specifically trained to kill him. If he were not feared or respected then they wouldn't have build team just to kill him.
Please prove what is in bold!
Either way Madara/Kurama would take down 20 ninjas "trained to kill them"

The Police force was not meant to distance them, everything that went wrong in that situation was because of the elders lack of faith in Tobirama's trust in the Uchiha.
Proof?
Here is mine- chp 399
-Tobi says that there was peace
-Tobi says that other villags/nations copied them
-chp 399 pg 12
The poice system was made and the ANBU looked at them BEFORE Hiruzen was hokage and before the elders were elders

There was no peace during his reign because his brother terrible idea started a war.
Proof?
There would have been war either way. There would have been a war eventually!

So, you're going to hold him responsible for sword that was stolen, after he was long dead? You can't hold people responsible for things that happened after they were dead. Yes, I bring up things that happened after Hashirama was dead, but only because you insist upon blaming the man for things that happened after he died.
Yes we are blaming each other after their deaths. They should have taken care of their belongins.. either destroyed them or sealed them but they both did not.

How can prove that there wouldn't have been a war, back them, how can prove that the villages wouldn't have worked together.
You can not prove it! The villages are working toghter now to fight the bigger threat... that is my proof

Simple, none of the other villages even wanted to fight the leaf until WHEN? Until after Hashirama gave then their WMD's. didn't none of the other villages want none until they finally got weapon that would equal things out.
Proof please?!?
The villages wanted to fight for land/power

They wouldn't have worked together back then because, the generation now, is kinder and more for working towards peace, while back then everybody just wanted to fight and prove who was strongest.
(EXACTLY!! ANd who would be the strongest... THE LEAF!
SO what would they do combine villages to defeat the leafs. Over time the villages have gained more and more power and issues with each other. At the beggining their would be less bad blood and issues so they would be more open to work togheter. People wanted peace back then as well)

They were pretty much cold-hearted as you will notice when comparing the new generations to the older generations, I mean just look at how Cold Onoki was in the beginning and he's old as dirt(actually it was AFTER he met Madara and lost to him that is when Ononki was cold but before he watned peace like hashirama and Tobirama and the 2RK ). Look at the hard bone Danzo. There was no such thing at the hidden villages working together back then.
SO Danzo was a product of Tobirama

Yes, Yamato was good, but that doesn't make up for the lives lost.
Yes it does. At least his cells saved lives.... ET DID NOTWIthout Hashirama cells the Allied Force would have lost cuz Naruto would be dead cuz Naruto would not be surpressed

In the end Tobirama did more for the village, he gave it structure and order and the power to be able to fight off other village if they decided to attack, which they did.
Tobirama did ONE THING for his villages but he has wayy tooooo many mistakes. Hashirama did things for the village while making less mistakes
-protected the villagefrom a bigger threat
-globably gave bijju as a sign of peace
-sealed kurama inside of Mito
-Protected village from Kakazu
-Protect the Forbidden Scrol Seal
-Med ninjutsu
-feared and respected ... his era was peaceful
-helped teach Hiruzen
-passing down his Necklace


I think I might be forgetting something, but I'll read over it again in a minute.

Please find me the proof I asked for

So your saying - the
1- Academy
2-Chunnin exams
3-Beating Kumo

Make up for all the bad things he has done
1-Uchiha Police Force
2-Inventing Edo Tensi
3-Losing to 20 Kumo ninja

and beats everything Hashriama did?
-protected the villagefrom a bigger threat
-globably gave bijju as a sign of peace
-Helped build the Leaf Village
-Organized Treaty with Uchiha's
-Convinced Fire Dayimo to let them live their
-Passing Down the Will of Fire
-Only Senju to have Wood Style
-Hyped as a Fairy Tale and near the power of the So6P
-sealed kurama inside of Mito
-Protected village from Kakazu
-Protect the Forbidden Scrol Seal
-Med ninjutsu
-feared and respected ... his era was peaceful
-helped teach Hiruzen
-passing down his Necklace
-----------------------------------------------------------

I just realized a couple things

1- The Sand/Sound took advantage of the Chunnin Exams to destroy the Leaf. Why would Tobriama inbent such a thing? BECAUSE HE TRIED TO TRUST THE OTHER VILLAGES AND ESTABLISH PEACE!! Hmmmmmmm this sounds very familiar ..... oh yeah it is just like Hashirama WHEN HE GAVE BIJJU'S TO THE OTHER VILLAGES AS A SIGN OF PEACE/TRUST.

2-If Tobirama was so great he would have been the 1st Hokage and not Hashirama. Also Madara would have recongized his power ... at least a lil

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Please find me the proof I asked for

SO your saying - the Academy/Chunnin exams/Beating Kumo
Make up for all the bad things he has done and beats everything Hashriama did?

Oh, I'm assuming, but you're assuming that intended to play with the dead, so isn't that pot calling the cettle black. The bottom line is that you can no ASSUME that Tobirama played with the dead like he was god, because do not know the whole story and yet you do anyway.

Once again we get into the Tobirama did trust the Uchiha, prove that he didn't trust them. Show me where the elders didn't move them to the a small corner of the village in order to keep a better eye on them. Oh way, they did so I guess you can't can you?

Exactly, what. Rather he was brought back with ET or not, he still would have been OP with Hashirama's cells.

First off, yes they did, he was married to an Uzumaki so how were they not in close relations with them yet?

Jinchuuriki are not the only way to seal something up, they could have sealed them all in Items.

So you think that being cremated is disrespectful?

But you don't know that that isn't what happened do you and I'm not assuming I'm just telling you waht COULD have happened. If I were assuming I would have just flat out said that he was working on the jutsu with Danzo and that Danzo saved his notes. Please know the difference between assuming an proposing possibilities, thank you.

You can't assume that Madara sold Oro Hashirma's cells because Orochimaru himself said HE retrieved the cells of the first and second Hokage during his fight with Hiruzen.

I mean for crying out loud Kagami was one of his students, so if he didn't trust the Uchiha why would he teach one of them? You as assuming that Tobirama didn't trust the Senju, yes it was said that the police force was used so that Anbu could watch them, but where exactly does it say Tobirama himself ordered for them to be watched?

You prove that the village would have worked together BACK THEN I know what they are doing now, I want you to prove to me that they would have worked together back then.

There was no peace in Tobirama's reign because his brother caused a darn war to start. You prove to that that there would have been a war, show me any sign of the villages even attempting to work together back then. As it was said in the manga, peace started because everyone feared the leaf and it's power since they had both the Uchiha and the Senju, nobody wanted to fight when the leaf village was formed and nobody was trying to work together even though the two most feared clans had now joined forces.

They only got bold after Hashirama gave them their WMD's, prove to me that there would have been a war if he didn't give them the demons and gave them further dreams of greed and obtaining all nine of them.

Every war was over those demons, that he gave them. Yeah Tobirama made ET and it's been used in A war, his choice didn't cause 4 and has only been used in one.

Tsunade learned medical ninjutsu and she can't heal herself instantly without Yin seal. Show me another Senju that has wood style and could heal without Yin seal, then he is Fail Senju, but until them, you're wrong buddy. Hashirama did not have sealing abilities, he had to power to suppress the demons power. the Uzumaki's were the ones who seal the nine tails and he learned sealing from them.


Well I correct myself, it seems that Tobirama actually killed the group that was specifically trained to kill him, known as the Kinkaku force and team made up of at least 20 highly skilled shinobi and then went on to fight the Silver and Gold brothers who didn't actually kill him, but ran off because he came close to killing them as well, but died after they left form the injuries he got from the battle. The Silver and gold brothers who both had powers close to a Jinchuuiki because they'd been eating the insides of the nine tailed fox. So tell how this makes him weak, exactly?

Once again Hashirama's kills weren't even worth mentioning so how can you judge someones strength by how they had died? They were all tired and low on chakra and yet he still nearly killed all of them.

However, this is not about who was the stronger Hokage, it's about who was the best and Tobirama did much more for the village than other Hokage ever did. Tobirama and Tsunade, the only two people that actually improved the village.

I base my choice off of who did more for the village, not what they attempted to do.

Tobirama succeeded in making the Chunin exams

Tobirama succeeded in making the Anbu Black Ops

He Succeeded in making their Military Force

and he succeeded in making the Academy

Hashirama tried to make peace with people who hated him by giving them weapons and failed, horribly.

Danzo was product of his own making, he was jealous of Hiruzen and didn't get Tobirama's teaching until he was about to die. My point is that most of the people back then were cold and didn't really care much about peace.

Hashirama's cells , never saved Naruto, Yamato suppressed him that one time, but where was he all the other times Naruto lost it? No amount if results makes up for lives lost unless you can bring those people back.

And what the heck are talking about haven't even won the war yet.

He passed down his necklace that was nowhere to be found until they actually went looking for Tsunade, what would have happened if Naruto lost control long before then?

Tobirama didn't do one thing for his village, he more than just one, you giving his less credit than he actually deserved and he only did one thing wrong and that was make ET. So where are these soooo many things he did wrong?

Yes ET was bad, but Hashirama's "plan" caused more deaths that ET ever has.

[Dragon Style]

Hold Up!!

Dragon Style: Peace Maker No Jutsu!!!

@Hotarubi Hyuga and Prince of Peace

I fail to see why either of you are arguing, I mean this thread is supposed to be about your choice. Who you personally thought was the best Hokage.

From what I can see this was started because Hyuga tried to explain why how Tobirama died didn't make him weak, which it didn't. I honestly don't judge people off the way they died, because as powerful as some people where, the way they died made absolutely no sense.

So Hashirama Senju was killed by some no name ninja who wasn't even worth mentioning and yet the man he killed named Madara can just slide five Kage's with ease?

I personally think the first and second where the best, I can choose between them, because Tobirama did a lot for the progression of the village while Hashirama did some heavy protecting.

IMO personal opinion ET was a Horrible Jutsu, but Hashirama giving out Bijuu and starting the first of 4 great shinobi world wars isn't any less horrible.

Personally I think that instead of trying to tell each other how horrible the other ones choice was that you should both realize that both your choices were the best in their own way, MUCH better than any of the Hokages that came after them, that's for sure. I mean I'll give Tsunade her due for the medical core, but what have Hiruzen and Minato actually done that tops what Hashi or Tobirama have actually done?

However; on another note who I think is the best Hokage is....Dragon Style: Senju Brothers No Jutsu!!!


Oh and uh P.S. I'M BACK BABY!!!!

[Mangetsu Hozuki]

Whoa. That was anti-climatic. And for all those out there who think Tobirama is my favorite Kage, he's not. :P

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Please find me the proof I asked for

So your saying - the
1- Academy
2-Chunnin exams
3-Beating Kumo
Once again you're giving him less credit than he actually deserves, he also made the Anbu and their Military force

Make up for all the bad things he has done
1-Uchiha Police Force
The Uchiha ploce force was a good idea
2-Inventing Edo Tensi
3-Losing to 20 Kumo ninja
He only lost to two and killed the rest, and two he did lose there basically like Junchuuiki, you want to say losing to Kumo ninja is bad then Hashirama losing to a no name ninja is even worse

and beats everything Hashriama did?
-protected the villagefrom a bigger threat
Once again I already know Hashirama was stronger than him, so unless you're going somewhere more with this, then I really don't care
-globably gave bijju as a sign of peace
4 wars, nuff said
-Helped build the Leaf Village
-Organized Treaty with Uchiha's
-Convinced Fire Dayimo to let them live their
-Passing Down the Will of Fire
Oh, but Tobirama didn't huh, once again you are giving Hasirama sole credit to something that he did not do alone
-Only Senju to have Wood Style
How does him being born with woodstyle make him the better Hokage? So does Tobirama being the only Sensory ninja amoung the Senju make him the better Hokage?
-Hyped as a Fairy Tale and near the power of the So6P
So, Tobirama has a lot of hype too, how does that make him the better Hokage?
-sealed kurama inside of Mito
No he did not, the Uzumaki clan sealed it inside of her and then he learned sealing jutsu's from them, see now you're just giving him credit for things that he didn't do
-Protected village from Kakazu
Kakauzu was only there to kill him and he almost died fighting him, so how does this make him the better Hokage?
-Protect the Forbidden Scrol Seal
That was stolen, by the failure of the academy with ease
-Med ninjutsu
So because he was born with healing abilities, that makes him the better Hokage?
-feared and respected ... his era was peaceful
Tobirama was feared and respected too, look it up, There wasn't any peace in his era because brother caused a war by giving people who hated him and each other WMD's and there obviously wasn't peace during his era because he was killed in it
-helped teach Hiruzen
I notice that you have this as something good Hasirama did, but it's not put down as something good Tobirama did, being kind of bias aren't we?
-passing down his Necklace
Oh, you mean the necklace that did them no good because Naruto broke it? The one that if Minato hadn't showed up would not have saved the village from the nine tailed fox that was about to be fully realized, is that the necklace we're talking about? The one that no one knew where it was for the longest time because no one knew where Tsunade was, the Kushina never wore while she was Jinchuuriki?
-----------------------------------------------------------

I just realized a couple things

1- The Sand/Sound took advantage of the Chunnin Exams to destroy the Leaf. Why would Tobriama inbent such a thing? BECAUSE HE TRIED TO TRUST THE OTHER VILLAGES AND ESTABLISH PEACE!! Hmmmmmmm this sounds very familiar ..... oh yeah it is just like Hashirama WHEN HE GAVE BIJJU'S TO THE OTHER VILLAGES AS A SIGN OF PEACE/TRUST.

Tobirama didn't build the Chunin exams for that reason, they weren't even at peace with the other villages back then. The Chunin exams back then was only for the leaf village, the peace treaty between the villages wasn't signed until after the third great ninja war and Tobirama was long dead by then

2-If Tobirama was so great he would have been the 1st Hokage and not Hashirama. Also Madara would have recongized his power ... at least a lil

If you read the manga correctly when they were picking who should be Hokage between the Uchiha and the Senju, Hashirama only became Hokage because he defeated Madara, it had nothing to do with the fact the Tobirama wasn't great

Madara only recognizes Hasirama so much because he was his rival, and he did recognize Tonirama a little, you don't notice because of how much he talks about Hashirama it didn't mean that he wasn't great. If he wasn't great, people wouldn't refer to him as the greatest water style ninja of all time, if he wasn't great, he would never have become Hokage, he wouldn't have been known as the second strongest Senju

I know that Hashirama is stronger, that doesn't make him the better Hokage, I judge them off of what they did FOR THEIR VILLAGE, not what they were born with, not who they fought or how strong they are. Tobirama was not weak, his only mistake was making ET which like Dragon Style said was just as bad as bad as Hasirama's Bijuu plan.

IMO they were both horrible and don't get wrong, messing with the dead is awful and all, but what Hashirama did cause far more deaths than ET ever has.

I notice how you want to point out all of these so called mistakes that Tobirama made and then give him less credit than he actually desreves on the good he did, but then when it comes to Hashirama, you want to try and pull out all of these good things he was supposed who had done, some that don't have anything to do with him being the BEST, not the strongest, but the best Hokage, some things that he himself didn't even do, but then you don't put anything down for what he's done wrong.

For example you said beat by 20 Kumo Ninja, even though he actually killed all but two who were basically like Jinchuuiki. However, I shall move on to my point, this was put down as a mistake for Tobirama, yet Hashirama being killed by a nameless ninja who wasn't even worth mentioning was not put down as a mistake for Hashirama.

You say that a good thing for Hashirama was that he protected his scroll and yet Tobirama protecting his sword of the thunder god was not put down as something good for him.

You did not hold Hashirama responsible for his scroll being stolen by Naruto because he was dead, but you held Tobirama responsible for his sword being stolen by Aoi even though he was dead as well.

Do you see where you're being bias on this?

Now like Dragon Style Said, this all started because I simply trying to explain why Tobirama being killed by 20 Kumo ninja did not make him weak and that it wasn't as bad as it sounded, but then you for whatever reason decided to come on to my profile and tell me that Tobirama was the weakest Hokage and that he made a ton of mistakes, so yet argument started on a thread that really wasn't meant for debating anyway and I also agree that they were both great in their own ways and they both at least had one terrible idea, however, IMO Tobirama was the best and we can sit here and debate this all year, but it's never going to end because in the end this is matter of personal opinion and when it comes to personal opinions no one is actually ever going to be right, because at the end of the day I'm still going to think Tobirama is the best while you're always to think that Hashirama is best.

However, if you continue to try and put my choice down then I will continue to tell you what's wrong with yours and defend mine.

Now I've said what I had to say, now it's you're move.

[ShadowBlade]

Well i like the fourth he is awesome but if it has to be the best got to say Hashirama Senju but i think Tobirama Senjus water jutsu are awesome as well but the first Hokage has to be the best for me

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

Oh, I'm assuming, but you're assuming that intended to play with the dead, so isn't that pot calling the cettle black. The bottom line is that you can no ASSUME that Tobirama played with the dead like he was god, because do not know the whole story and yet you do anyway.
BOTTOME LINE- Tobirama created the jutsu! We do not know if he used it or not but he made it and that is that. You are assuming way more.

Once again we get into the Tobirama did trust the Uchiha, prove that he didn't trust them. Show me where the elders didn't move them to the a small corner of the village in order to keep a better eye on them. Oh way, they did so I guess you can't can you?
I just gave you the chapter. Tobi explains that Tobirama made the Police force and on the next page he states that the ANBU watched them. Hiruzen was not hokage during that time peroid

Exactly, what. Rather he was brought back with ET or not, he still would have been OP with Hashirama's cells.
IT WOULD NOT MATTER IF HE HAD THE CELLS IF HE WAS DEAD!!!

First off, yes they did, he was married to an Uzumaki so how were they not in close relations with them yet?
Agreed. Yet being a jinjchuuriki is not a fun task

Jinchuuriki are not the only way to seal something up, they could have sealed them all in Items.
-How would they get the items
-where would they get the items
-What item could hold Kurama
-Can the items hold all of the bijju?
-HOw would they have knowledge of such an item
-A bijju in an item makes it easier to steal

So you think that being cremated is disrespectful?
In some cultures... YES

But you don't know that that isn't what happened do you and I'm not assuming I'm just telling you waht COULD have happened If I were assuming I would have just flat out said that he was working on the jutsu with Danzo and that Danzo saved his notes. Please know the difference between assuming an proposing possibilities, thank you.
.(lets just go back FACTS! Not shouda would couda.... that goes for both of us. Possibliteies are ENDLESS! So lets not use them. How is possibilties and assuming different?)

You can't assume that Madara sold Oro Hashirma's cells because Orochimaru himself said HE retrieved the cells of the first and second Hokage during his fight with Hiruzen.
Lets not assume and just use facts

I mean for crying out loud Kagami was one of his students, so if he didn't trust the Uchiha why would he teach one of them?(Keep your friends close and your enemies closer) You as assuming that Tobirama didn't trust the Senju(lol what?????), yes it was said that the police force was used so that Anbu could watch them, but where exactly does it say Tobirama himself ordered for them to be watched?
so you think the ANBU watched the Uchiha by themselves without getting permission from Tobirama! If this is what you are saying than this makes TObirama and even WORSE HOKAGE! The ANBU totally disrespected Tobirama and did what they wanted to do.

You prove that the village would have worked together BACK THEN I know what they are doing now, I want you to prove to me that they would have worked together back then.
WOrking togheter would be their ONLY option
-They are weaker apart

-History repeats themselves

-The leaf would be attacked because it would have the most power so it would be constantly under attacked even if the villages did not work togherther

-Look back at the summit meeting! The kages did not trust each other because of the bad blood/history. But since this is in the beginning their would be no bad history/blood

-EIther way the Village would be under attack


There was no peace in Tobirama's reign because his brother caused a darn war to start. You prove to that that there would have been a war, show me any sign of the villages even attempting to work together back then. As it was said in the manga(if you mention the manga please give the chapter), peace started because everyone feared the leaf and it's power since they had both the Uchiha and the Senju(the leaf did not fear the Uchiha/Senju in one village! If they did than during the 2nd/3rd shonobi wars nobody would have fought the leaf), nobody wanted to fight when the leaf village was formed (nobody wanted to fight cuz other clans/villages/lands were copying their idea! Clans joined toghether to form a village to prevent deaths) and nobody was trying to work together even though the two most feared clans had now joined forces.(clans were working togheter so why not villages)

You keep saying that the wars were over the bijju but can you prove it?

They only got bold after Hashirama gave them their WMD's, prove to me that there would have been a war if he didn't give them the demons and gave them further dreams of greed and obtaining all nine of them.
So are you saying nobody would attack the leaf for being OP? The leaf has the strongest weapons and you think everyone would back away? Kumo tried to steal 9tails from the leaf even though they already had a bijju! So what makes you think that everybody would leave the leaf alone?

Prove that the war started or was about the bijju

The bijju is not what made them greedy. Hashirama would have been the greedy one if he kept them all.
PLUS IT WAS TOO DANGEROUS TO KEEP THEM ALL

-How would all of the bijju be tamed
-How would you prevent them from destroying the village
-Being a jinjuriki is not something that people would be willing to do.
-Eventaully the seals weaken which would be the perfect time for the enemy to attack
-Hashriama was the best/only one who could seal the bijju at the time so when he died what would happen?

Answer that^?

Every war was over those demons, that he gave them. Yeah Tobirama made ET and it's been used in A war, his choice didn't cause 4 and has only been used in one.
PROVE IT YOU KEEP SAYING WHAT I PUT IN BOLD BUT PROVE THAT THE WARS WERE OVER THE BIJJU. How was the 1st war over the bijju?
Even if the 4th war was about the bijju it is not because Hashirama separted them. If Hashirama did not separed them the Leaf would have been destoyed and all of the BIjju's would be easy to be taken away in one spot

Tsunade learned medical ninjutsu and she can't heal herself instantly without Yin seal.(Wow do not try and make it look like you were right hahaha! You forgot Tsuande could heal herself! WHen I said Tobirama was not able to heal himself. I did not say he could not instanly heal himself. I just said he had NO HEALING ABILITIES! Of course Tsunade needs the Yin seal to instantly heal herself but I did not say she could not! ALl I said was that Tsunade could heal herself and Tobirama can not. Also Tsunade has sealing abilities while Tobirama does not. Just admit you are wrong. Tsunade can heal herself without yin seal) Show me another Senju that has wood style and could heal without Yin seal, then he is Fail Senju, but until them, you're wrong buddy(How am I wrong? We only know of a few Senju (Tsunade,Hashirama, Mito, Kushina, Nawoki, Naruto (kinda) .. basscialy we do not know of a lot) The fact that Hashirama could use all of those abilities is what makes him so special/AWESOME! Yes Tobirama is a Fail-Senju (or at least not as good Senju) because he can not do most abilities that his clan has shown to be able to do). Hashirama did not have sealing abilities, he had to power to suppress the demons power(yes he does have sealing abilities the jutsu was Contact Seal. Also He sealed Kurama into Mito). the Uzumaki's were the ones who seal the nine tails and he learned sealing from them.
Okay... you just admited that Hashirama learned sealing abilities... and TOBIRAMA DOES NOT
He has no way of controlling the bijju

Well I correct myself, it seems that Tobirama actually killed the group that was specifically trained to kill him(you still have not proven that they group was trained to kill him... where is your proof that Tobirama killed the 20 ninja?), known as the Kinkaku force and team made up of at least 20 highly skilled shinobi and then went on to fight the Silver and Gold brothers who didn't actually kill him, but ran off because he came close to killing them as well, but died after they left form the injuries he got from the battle. (this is not true! Tobirama battled the bros first which left him close to death... he then lost to all 20 ninjas)The Silver and gold brothers who both had powers close to a Jinchuuiki because they'd been eating the insides of the nine tailed fox. So tell how this makes him weak, exactly?
You need to get your facts stright... and for the 3rd time give me your proof

Once again Hashirama's kills weren't even worth mentioning so how can you judge someones strength by how they had died? They were all tired and low on chakra and yet he still nearly killed all of them.
1-Hashirama was a lot older
2-We can not judge his death because we do not know the situation
3-Hashirama was still stronger than Tobirama and Hashirama beat Madara/Kurama which is way stronger than 20 Kumo ninja
4-The bros were not apart of the Kinku force

However, this is not about who was the stronger Hokage, it's about who was the best and Tobirama did much more for the village than other Hokage ever did. Tobirama and Tsunade, the only two people that actually improved the village.
So Hashirama protecting/building the village was not helping?

I base my choice off of who did more for the village, not what they attempted to do.

Tobirama succeeded in making the Chunin exams
An exucse for the Sand/Sound village to try and destory the Leaf

Tobirama succeeded in making the Anbu Black Ops

He Succeeded in making their Military Force
Which was to distance the Uchiha. Plus the fact this is not operational today so it failed.

and he succeeded in making the Academy

Hashirama tried to make peace with people who hated him by giving them weapons and failed, horribly.
It was bettter than Keeping the weapons to himself and being attacked for it

Danzo was product of his own making, he was jealous of Hiruzen and didn't get Tobirama's teaching until he was about to die. My point is that most of the people back then were cold and didn't really care much about peace.
That is Tobirama's fault and he should have been a better teacher. He should have prolciamed about peace more like his brother

Hashirama's cells , never saved Naruto, Yamato suppressed him that one time(without that one time Sakura Yamato and Sai would be dead. Naruto would have continued on his rampage and killed others or taken his own life. He owuld never forgive himself if he killed his comrades), but where was he all the other times Naruto lost it? No amount if results makes up for lives lost unless you can bring those people back.
-ET took more lives than Hashirama cells.
-Hashirama cells have saved more lives than ET
-ET has caused nothing but PAIN/SUFFERING

And what the heck are talking about haven't even won the war yet.
????whu???

He passed down his necklace that was nowhere to be found until they actually went looking for Tsunade, what would have happened if Naruto lost control long before then?
Ther you go using your POSSIBLITIES!! The point is Tsunade was able to give Naruto the necklace. hashirama trusted the next generations that it would be used to good use AND HE WAS RIGHT

Tobirama didn't do one thing for his village, he more than jus... t one, you giving his less credit than he actually deserved and he only did one thing wrong and that was make ET. So where are these soooo many things he did wrong?
Most of what TObirama did was mistakes. He was not helping and he did not help the next generation in a good way that was unique. He was not that strong and he was nothing special. He lost to weaker threats and his job was easy. Of course after something is build you would add strcture. You are trying to Blame Hashirama for trying to make peace. You try and discredit him and it is unjust

Yes ET was bad, but Hashirama's "plan" caused more deaths that ET ever has.
Yet it saved more lives!

@Dragon Style

-Glad to see that you are back. I was looking through soome threads and I was like " Aww I miss that kid"- No joke I am comopelty honeset

BUT IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE ... what Hokage would you pick?
IMO Hashirama cuz sharing the bijju was not a bad idea! EIther way their would have been war an dother villlages would try to steal their bijju

--------------------------------------

@Hyuga... AGAIN-in blue (I am in yellow)

So your saying - the
1- Academy
2-Chunnin exams
3-Beating Kumo
Once again you're giving him less credit than he actually deserves, he also made the Anbu and their Military force
I missed the ANBU but the Police force was not helpful cuz he did not trust the Uchiha... Plus that force is non-existant now

Make up for all the bad things he has done
1-Uchiha Police Force
The Uchiha ploce force was a good idea
How was it a good idea?
-What did it even do?
Hiruzen was not Hokage when the ANBU were watching them so how did Tobirama trust them if the ANBU were watching them? ARe you saying ANBU did something of their own free will?
2-Inventing Edo Tensi
3-Losing to 20 Kumo ninja
He only lost to two and killed the rest, and two he did lose there basically like Junchuuiki, you want to say losing to Kumo ninja is bad then Hashirama losing to a no name ninja is even worse
Those 2 are weaker than Madara and Kurama so what is your point? ALso The Kumo bros did not kill Tobirama. It was the Kinkur force which they were not apart of. We do not know the conditions of how Hahsirama lost plus Hashirama fought tougher enemies

and beats everything Hashriama did?
-protected the villagefrom a bigger threat
Once again I already know Hashirama was stronger than him, so unless you're going somewhere more with this, then I really don't care
this proves he was better at protectin the village
-globably gave bijju as a sign of peace
4 wars, nuff said
STOP SAYING THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE PROOF
-Hashirama was the only kage/person trying to maintain/establish peace. Prove that their would be no war if he kept the bijju! Prove that the bijju caused 4 wars! If he kept them people would try to steal them due to the power or destory the leaf in fear of how strong they were
-During the 2nd war they just wanted to expand the terroitory.... what bijju were involved?
-How were the bijju involved in the 3rd ninja war in any major/serious way? This was about politicis/power
-If Hashirama did not separate the bijju then the Akaskui/Tobi would have ambushed the Leaf to get all the bijju which would have been a lot easeir/faster
-Helped build the Leaf Village
-Organized Treaty with Uchiha's
-Convinced Fire Dayimo to let them live their
-Passing Down the Will of Fire
Oh, but Tobirama didn't huh, once again you are giving Hasirama sole credit to something that he did not do alone
I did not say he did not. Hashirama passed it down to Tobirama and Hiruzen and so on
-Only Senju to have Wood Style
How does him being born with woodstyle make him the better Hokage?
Wood Style helped build/protect the leaf and stop bijju
So does Tobirama being the only Sensory ninja amoung the Senju make him the better Hokage?
He was not that great of a sensor. Also it did not help the leaf as much as wood style has.
-Hyped as a Fairy Tale and near the power of the So6P
So, Tobirama has a lot of hype too, how does that make him the better Hokage?
Tobirama's hype does not compare to Hashirama! Hashirama was a legend/fairy tale being on par with So6P.... what hype does Tobirama have that even compares?
-sealed kurama inside of Mito
No he did not, the Uzumaki clan sealed it inside of her and then he learned sealing jutsu's from them, see now you're just giving him credit for things that he didn't do
.My fault! Kurama would not have been able to be sealed without Hashirama's help See unlike you I can admit my mistakes but you can not even admit when you left out Tsunade like she could not use Med ninjutsu
-Protected village from Kakazu
Kakauzu was only there to kill him and he almost died fighting him, so how does this make him the better Hokage?
One of the many reasons! The VIllage would have been a lot weaker if Hashirama died.
-Protect the Forbidden Scrol Seal
That was stolen, by the failure of the academy with ease
that was Hiruzen's fault WHO WAS TAUGHT BY TOBIRAMA
-Med ninjutsu
So because he was born with healing abilities, that makes him the better Hokage?
He was not born with Healing abilities he was born with Wood Style. Who was born with Med ninjutsu?!?! You get Med ninjutsu throught HARD WORK
-feared and respected ... his era was peaceful
Tobirama was feared and respected too, look it up, There wasn't any peace in his era because brother caused a war by giving people who hated him and each other WMD's and there obviously wasn't peace during his era because he was killed in it
Tobirama was not feared nor respected
-The GOld/Silver bros took him on
-The 20 kumo ninjas fought them ... AND WON so they were not scared
You do not have proof that keeping the bijju would solve anything.
I did not say their was complete peace during his ENTIRE era I just said that there was peace. A lil bit of peace is better than none at all

-helped teach Hiruzen
I notice that you have this as something good Hasirama did, but it's not put down as something good Tobirama did, being kind of bias aren't we?
I also did not say that he taught bad kids so no! I was just holding back. Tobirama was the main teacher and Hiruzen ended up not being the best Hokage.... 2nd Worst IMO
-passing down his Necklace
Oh, you mean the necklace that did them no good because Naruto broke it? The one that if Minato hadn't showed up would not have saved the village from the nine tailed fox that was about to be fully realized, is that the necklace we're talking about? The one that no one knew where it was for the longest time because no one knew where Tsunade was, the Kushina never wore while she was Jinchuuriki?
WIthout the Neclace Yamato would not have been able to control Naruto in 4tails mode. Kushina was an uzumaki and brining her up is irrelevant. The point is the necklace got to Naruto... at least he passed something good down. TObirama passed down ET... THANKS A LOT
-----------------------------------------------------------

I just realized a couple things

1- The Sand/Sound took advantage of the Chunnin Exams to destroy the Leaf. Why would Tobriama inbent such a thing? BECAUSE HE TRIED TO TRUST THE OTHER VILLAGES AND ESTABLISH PEACE!! Hmmmmmmm this sounds very familiar ..... oh yeah it is just like Hashirama WHEN HE GAVE BIJJU'S TO THE OTHER VILLAGES AS A SIGN OF PEACE/TRUST.

Tobirama didn't build the Chunin exams for that reason, they weren't even at peace with the other villages back then. The Chunin exams back then was only for the leaf village, the peace treaty between the villages wasn't signed until after the third great ninja war and Tobirama was long dead by then
He also did not build ET for evil but look how that turned out. Proof that it was only for the leaf? WHy would it only be for the leaf? The exams would help you look out for strong ninja.

2-If Tobirama was so great he would have been the 1st Hokage and not Hashirama. Also Madara would have recongized his power ... at least a lil

If you read the manga correctly when they were picking who should be Hokage between the Uchiha and the Senju, Hashirama only became Hokage because he defeated Madara, it had nothing to do with the fact the Tobirama wasn't great
Hashirama also did more for his village with Uchiha
-he organized the peace treaty
-built most of the village
-oranized the peace treaty with the Land of Fire

Madara only recognizes Hasirama so much because he was his rival, and he did recognize Tonirama a little, you don't notice because of how much he talks about Hashirama it didn't mean that he wasn't great. If he wasn't great, people wouldn't refer to him as the greatest water style ninja of all time, if he wasn't great, he would never have become Hokage, he wouldn't have been known as the second strongest Senju
WHere does he reconginze TObirama? Even if he did it does not compare to the props Madara gave Hashirama. Being the greatest water stye user does not make him great. IMO Kisame is the strongest water style user even if he got help from Samehada. TObirama is the 3rd strongest Senju.

I know that Hashirama is stronger, that doesn't make him the better Hokage, I judge them off of what they did FOR THEIR VILLAGE, not what they were born with, not who they fought or how strong they are. Tobirama was not weak, his only mistake was making ET which like Dragon Style said was just as bad as bad as Hasirama's Bijuu plan.
I would like a Hokage who is stronger cuz that means he would protect the village better. Hashirama also did things for his village which I mentioned above! Tobirama establishing the Police Force is not a pro for him. Tobirama was a weaker hokage so he was worse at protecting the leaf. Tobirama only estalshed things

IMO they were both horrible and don't get wrong, messing with the dead is awful and all, but what Hashirama did cause far more deaths than ET ever has.(PROOF?)
IMO TObirama was worse. EVEN IF Hashirama cells have caused more deaths at least they have done some good and helped SAVE LIVES!
WHAT GOOD HAS ET DONE?

I notice how you want to point out all of these so called mistakes that Tobirama made and then give him less credit than he actually desreves on the good he did, but then when it comes to Hashirama, you want to try and pull out all of these good things he was supposed who had done, some that don't have anything to do with him being the BEST, not the strongest, but the best Hokage, some things that he himself didn't even do, but then you don't put anything down for what he's done wrong.
If you looked at my other post you would see that you are wrong in this statment

For example you said beat by 20 Kumo Ninja, even though he actually killed all but two who were basically like Jinchuuiki. However, I shall move on to my point, this was put down as a mistake for Tobirama, yet Hashirama being killed by a nameless ninja who wasn't even worth mentioning was not put down as a mistake for Hashirama.
Proof that Tobirama beat all 20 ninja? If he beat them than he could have handeled them with some help or returned back to the village. The Bros were not apart of that 20man team. You do not even have your facts stright of how he died! We do not know the conditions of how Hashirama died. So why try to assume and say opportunites. Hashirama was older and getting weaker but who knows. OVERALL he died during the war under unknown conditions

You say that a good thing for Hashirama was that he protected his scroll and yet Tobirama protecting his sword of the thunder god was not put down as something good for him.
The scroll was anime... OFF-CANNON

You did not hold Hashirama responsible for his scroll being stolen by Naruto because he was dead, but you held Tobirama responsible for his sword being stolen by Aoi even though he was dead as well.
That is cuz Hiruzen was Hokage back then and it is his fault (AND TOBIRAMA"S PRIZED STUDENT) that it got out of hand.


Now like Dragon Style Said, this all started because I simply trying to explain why Tobirama being killed by 20 Kumo ninja did not make him weak and that it wasn't as bad as it sounded, but then you for whatever reason decided to come on to my profile and tell me that Tobirama was the weakest Hokage and that he made a ton of mistakes, so yet argument started on a thread that really wasn't meant for debating
You do not even know the conditions of how Tobirama died. Yes I started it... you act like I started a war. You do not have to debate with me. It is our opinons clashing. Nobody said this was not up for debate.
anyway and I also agree that they were both great in their own ways and they both at least had one terrible idea, however, IMO Tobirama was the best and we can sit here and debate this all year, but it's never going to end because in the end this is matter of personal opinion and when it comes to personal opinions no one is actually ever going to be right, because at the end of the day I'm still going to think Tobirama is the best while you're always to think that Hashirama is best.
We shall see if you can prove your points and give the chpaters of proof

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

The Police force rooted out the enemies within the leaf village, notice how many enemies were able to get in once the Uchiha were gone. The Anbu watching the Uchiha really isn't that big because throught out the entire series the Anbu have watch EVERYONE in the village. Notice how everything didn't start going wrong until after Tobirama was dead, were the uchiha moved to a small corner of the village to be watched better, I don't think so.
Make up for all the bad things he has done
1-Uchiha Police Force

Really? Ginkaku and KINKAKU were not apart of the KINKAKU force? Do you hear how you are sounding right now, I mean his freaking name was in it for cryong out loud. Tobirama did kill the 20 Kumo ninja it was stated that Tobirama was killed by the silver and gold brothers Ginkaku and Kinkaku, none of the other shinobi in that force survived except for them.

It proves that Hashirama was stronger, this add to him being a stronger ninja, not being a better Hokage

Really, all four wars have been over the tailed beast and yet you need further proof that he started a war? Prove to me that there wouldn't have been a war, show me where the other villages showed any sign of working together back then. show me where they showed any signs of even trying to act out before they got the Bijuu.

When Chiyo was explaining the tailed beast she said that wars were faught over control over control of them and Kakashi said "the 3 great shinobi world wars" Sure they might have been fighting for other reasons as well, but as it has been establishes quite a few times, each war was faught over control of those deamons.

What akatsuki? Without the Bijuu as an issue, there wouldn't have even been first one, Obito would never have died, therefore there would be no Tobi or Akatsuki. Madara would still be trapped underground or dead, Nagato , Yahiko and Konan wouldn't have had their lives ruined by the war and he would never would have become Pain. Hashirama and Tobirama would have lived much longer, therefore Danzo couldn't have ordered the assassination of the Uchiha who wouldn't have been moved to a small corner of the village. Itachi would have never had to kill his family, Sasuke wouldn't be a revenge seeking pain in everyones back. Naruto could have had parents and all if Hashirama would have just sealed the darn things and hidden them away.


Once gain the will of fire what started with the younger son and passed down to the Senju, you cannot prove it was an ideal that he started.

OK I know he helped build build the leaf, I never didn't give him credit for that, however being born with wood style does make him the better Hokage?

So now Tobirama isn't that great of sensor even though all he had to do was touch the ground and he'd know exactly how many shinobi there were.

Once again we get down to the I ALREADY KNOW HASHIRAMA WAS STRONGER, but hype does not make you a good hokage. The second Mizukage had hype, but as far as we know he was the worst Mizukage to ever live so how does this make him the better Hokage?
-sealed kurama inside of Mito

Did I not say she advanced the medical core, it was implied, but by healing abilities I did not mean being able to heal other people, I mean being able to heal herself instantly like Hashirama was without Yin seal. This does not make him the better hokage, it just proves that he was born special, unless you can prove to me that there were other Senju who had sealing abilities, instant healing abilities, could use wood style and suppress demon energy then Tobirama was no a fail Senju. A fail is someone like Naruto who is an Uzumaki, but can't seal, a fail is was Obito was since he was an untalented Uchiha. You are not a fail when one or two people in your clan can do something you caon't, it just makes those two people very special.

Yeah, but somehow with all these attakcs happening....there was peace in his era right....

His scroll could have been stolen long before because sword of the thunder god was in the same place as the scroll and Hiruzen was Hashirama's student as well, which by your standers still put him at fault.

Hashirama was born with the ability to heal himself instantly without the need of Yin Seal release and was able to apply this to others according to Madara, this is was inspired the concept of medical ninjutsu.

Those 20 Kumo ninja are dead, except for two and if we're going off of that then Hashirama being attacked by Madara, Kakauzu and killed obviously mean that he wasn't feared or respected either.

People fear and respect Kakashi, but that doesn't mean that won't try to fight him.

first off I sai that he should have sealed them away and you have no proof that would not have been war if kept them.

-helped teach Hiruzen

Uhuh, but everything bad about Hiruzen is solely put on Tobirama right? Hiruzen was great Hokage, who made mistakes just like everybody else.

Naruto's an Uzumaki too, so what is your point? what would have happened if Naruto lost control long before they even knew where the necklace was. How much good would it have done them if Naruto turned full nine tailes during his fight with pain?

Oh and while we're at it Hashirama is cause of 4 wars so this goes both ways, thanks a lot Hashirama.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Proof that is was only for the leaf, because none of the other villages trusted the other ninja enough to enter one another village or let them enter theirs. Hiruzen, the Chunin exams was opened up as a sign of peace after the treaty of alliance was signed after the third great ninja war, Tobirama was long dead by then because he had died in the first great ninja war.

Hashirama caused 4 great ninja wars and yet you don't hold him responsible for that at least I know and am willing to admit that ET was a horrible idea unlike you and Hasirama's Bijuu plan.

Actually he's not because after thinking about it for a while, Kisame could still keep shark skin and not beat Tobirama, because after all he is the greatest water style ninja of all time.

Tobirama only established things? He created things that were important to the villages future

I never said that ET ever did anything good, except if we want to to get technical about it he's protected the village with it since it seems that everyone seems to know he made it. Hashirama's cells are no the only issue, it's the 4 wars his plan started as well.

OK then please show me where you haven't been leaving out good things that Tobirama did and then at the same time leaving out bad things that Hashirama did.

Uh huh, lets see, no one else got away except for Ginkaku and Kinakau so um that pretty much says everything right there. The fact still stands that hw was killed bya no name ninja and it clearly showed in part one that he was nowhere near being old when he died. As it was said by Tsunade "being Hokage is a fools dream that caused every single on of them to die young" she said this is reference to her brother, Dan and all the Hokage (except for Hiruzen, I'm pretty sure she wasn't talking about him)

Tobirama's sword was stolen by Aoi in the anime which was also off canon, but you still count that now don't you?

Then it would be half Hashirama's fault too since he trained him as well

You did start a war, you started a debate war with a teenage girl

I'll be back with those chapter numbers, though I'm more of the person to watch things than read, eh I've read the mange plenty of times before so whatever.

[Dragon Style]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

@Dragon Style

-Glad to see that you are back. I was looking through some threads and I was like " Aww I miss that kid"- No joke I am completely honest

BUT IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE ... what Hokage would you pick?
IMO Hashirama cuz sharing the bijju was not a bad idea! EIther way their would have been war an brother villages would try to steal their bijju

Aww, I missed you peoplez too :3

Well, like Hyuga said we can't prove that there would have been a war either, all we really do know is that the wars fought were over control of the tailed beast.

If I had to choose between them......I'm still not actually sure because what both of them did was no less important than the other IMO. Hashirama protecting the village from people like Madara and Kurama was a big deal, but Tobirama making sure that they would be able to defend themselves long after he was gone was also a big deal as well.

At the moment it is still Toshirama Senju (Tobirama/Hashirama)

But if I HAD to choose between them.......hm that is not a simple question, I'll have to think about it.

[Raiden]

Reading the 1st 2 pages on this thread, and all I gotta say is people are stupid out here "He made them the police force because he did not trust them" really? So by your logic Pop, You saying that we need to fire everyone in the United States of America who work as cops, and give the tittle of "Police officer" to every gang member in the USA because they are not to be trusted? No, because that makes no sense, you don't give somebody that kind of power because you don't trust them.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Reading the 1st 2 pages on this thread, and all I gotta say is people are stupid out here "He made them the police force because he did not trust them" really? So by your logic Pop, You saying that we need to fire everyone in the United States of America who work as cops, and give the tittle of "Police officer" to every gang member in the USA because they are not to be trusted? No, because that makes no sense, you don't give somebody that kind of power because you don't trust them.

Thank you....sooo much for that

[gaara lover 24]

i think da fourth is da best hokage...hez awesome

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Reading the 1st 2 pages on this thread, and all I gotta say is people are stupid out here "He made them the police force because he did not trust them" really? So by your logic Pop, You saying that we need to fire everyone in the United States of America who work as cops, and give the tittle of "Police officer" to every gang member in the USA because they are not to be trusted? No, because that makes no sense, you don't give somebody that kind of power because you don't trust them.

This is totally different! Even Tobi said that the Police Force was not a sign of peace so do not blame me. Wow you are comparing Naruto to the real world
HAHAHAAHAAHHAHA

How do we not trust the police? They did not do anything to us. THey are not jealous and we trust the police.

Overall just ask Tobi and he will tell you that the police Force was made for evil

That is the WORST comparison ever!

The Uchiha Police force was made to distance them from the govenremnet. In THE REAL WORLD! The police are involved with our governemtn.

Also We trust our police force and we do not keep tabs on them

Did you even read what Tobi said?

Also if the Police Force was such a great idea. The Police Force would still be active

If you REALLY read the pages you would see that She has most of her info wrong especially about the battling
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Hyuga

The Police force rooted out the enemies within the leaf village(true), notice how many enemies were able to get in once the Uchiha were gone(??? and how many was that .... what enemies). The Anbu watching the Uchiha really isn't that big because throught out the entire series the Anbu have watch EVERYONE in the village. Notice how everything didn't start going wrong until after Tobirama was dead, were the uchiha moved to a small corner of the village to be watched better, I don't think so.
Make up for all the bad things he has done
1-Uchiha Police Force
As Tobi stated the ANBU watched the Police force UNDER TIGHT SURVIENLANCE AND IT WAS MADE TO DISTANCE THE UCHIHA! The ANBU did not watch anything else as closesely at the time.

Really? Ginkaku and KINKAKU were not apart of the KINKAKU force? Do you hear how you are sounding right now, I mean his freaking name was in it for cryong out loud. Tobirama did kill the 20 Kumo ninja it was stated that Tobirama was killed by the silver and gold brothers Ginkaku and Kinkaku, none of the other shinobi in that force survived except for them.
PROVE IT.
-prove that the bros were in the force
-prove that they were trained to kill them
-prove that the bros killed them
-prove that they were the only ones to survive

If they were part of the team they would have been mentioned in the team. The bros attacked the 2HK first then were disgraced and left the village. The bros left the 2HK in a near death state. Then Tobirama fought the 20man cell but it is unknown if he killed them ... he just held them back

It proves that Hashirama was stronger, this add to him being a stronger ninja, not being a better Hokage
Even Hiruzen said one of the needs of becoming hokage is the strenght to protect his people so this makes Hashirama a great Hokage as well

Really, all four wars have been over the tailed beast and yet you need further proof that he started a war? Prove to me that there wouldn't have been a war, show me where the other villages showed any sign of working together back then. show me where they showed any signs of even trying to act out before they got the Bijuu.
I already did!! But loooks like I will have to repeat myself!
THERE WOULD STILL BE WAR EVEN IF HASHIRAMA KEPT THE BIJJU
why?
-Naruto is the Child of Prophecy so their would still be war cuz he is the savior
-Kumo tried to get 9tails even though they have 8tails so they would fight Kono to get the bijuu
-Each village wanted to be the strongest so if one village had all of the bijju than the other villages would try to take him down
-The villlages are wrking toghether against a stronger thread EVEN WITH ALL OF THE DRAMA.... so why would they not do it now?

You still have not proved that the villages would not have worked togheter.

When Chiyo was explaining the tailed beast she said that wars were faught over control over control of them and Kakashi said "the 3 great shinobi world wars" Sure they might have been fighting for other reasons as well, but as it has been establishes quite a few times, each war was faught over control of those deamons.
So their still would be war! With or without sharing the bijju. So what is the point. OVERALL THEIR WOULD BE WAR. It would be too dangerous to keep all of the bijju in one place


What akatsuki? Without the Bijuu as an issue, there wouldn't have even been first one, Obito would never have died, therefore there would be no Tobi or Akatsuki. Madara would still be trapped underground or dead, Nagato , Yahiko and Konan wouldn't have had their lives ruined by the war and he would never would have become Pain. Hashirama and Tobirama would have lived much longer, therefore Danzo couldn't have ordered the assassination of the Uchiha who wouldn't have been moved to a small corner of the village. Itachi would have never had to kill his family, Sasuke wouldn't be a revenge seeking pain in everyones back. Naruto could have had parents and all if Hashirama would have just sealed the darn things and hidden them away.
So what now you are saying that the Bijju are Hashirama's fault? The bijju were created by the So6P so the akaskui would still be invented. So are you blaming the god of all shinobi for the bijju and the damage that they caused. If it was not for hashiram the bijju would not have been tamed! They would have casued a ruckus! Hashirama did not want nor create the bijju so it is not Hashirama's fault.


Once gain the will of fire what started with the younger son and passed down to the Senju, you cannot prove it was an ideal that he started.
We already agreed with that uet hashirama passed it down as well to Tobirama and Tobirama passed it down to hiruzen and so on and so on

OK I know he helped build build the leaf, I never didn't give him credit for that, however being born with wood style does make him the better Hokage?
Hashirama used the best hav of his abilities and took advantage of his genes. I am not saying having wood style makes him better but how he used his abilities

So now Tobirama isn't that great of sensor even though all he had to do was touch the ground and he'd know exactly how many shinobi there were.
how does sensing make him a good hokage? His sensing ability was not that impresses compared to others. He just found out their numbers. Karin, Shino, Akamaru, C, Kiba, and Hyugas and most sensors can locate the enemy and what they have and their power levels. What Tobirama did was a BASIC level of sensing

Once again we get down to the I ALREADY KNOW HASHIRAMA WAS STRONGER, but hype does not make you a good hokage. The second Mizukage had hype, but as far as we know he was the worst Mizukage to ever live so how does this make him the better Hokage?
-sealed kurama inside of Mito
The Mizukage and Hokages are totally different. Hashirama had better hype than the 2MK. Just cuz 2MK sucked does not mean the 1Hk does

Did I not say she advanced the medical core, it was implied, but by healing abilities I did not mean being able to heal other people, I mean being able to heal herself instantly like Hashirama was without Yin seal. This does not make him the better hokage, it just proves that he was born special, unless you can prove to me that there were other Senju who had sealing abilities, instant healing abilities, could use wood style and suppress demon energy then Tobirama was no a fail Senju. A fail is someone like Naruto who is an Uzumaki, but can't seal, a fail is was Obito was since he was an untalented Uchiha. You are not a fail when one or two people in your clan can do something you caon't, it just makes those two people very special.
Hashirama was not born with Sealing nor healing abilities. ANybody can seal or heal BUT YOU HAVE TO PUT IN THE TIME AND HARD WORK. SOmething that Tobirama did not do. Hashirama went above and beyond while Most Senju's did not.

His scroll could have been stolen long before because sword of the thunder god was in the same place as the scroll and Hiruzen was Hashirama's student as well, which by your standers still put him at fault.
It could.... BUT IT WAS NOT. It is mostly Tobirama's fault cuz you stated that Hashirama did not teach Hirzuen. But Hashirama did teach him BUT!!! Tobirama was his main sesni/teacher

Hashirama was born with the ability to heal himself instantly without the need of Yin Seal release and was able to apply this to others according to Madara, this is was inspired the concept of medical ninjutsu.
NOBODY IS BORN WITH MEDICAL NINJUTSU
The only thing you are born with is a kekki genki trait or hiden.
You get med/seal jutsu with great chakra control and training

Those 20 Kumo ninja are dead, except for two and if we're going off of that then Hashirama being attacked by Madara, Kakauzu and killed obviously mean that he wasn't feared or respected either.
Can you prove that all 20 were killed?

Only Kakazu did not respect Hashirama due to lack of knowledge and the fact the was on a mission
Madara admitted that he respected Hahsirama (and feared him a lil) Madara fought Hashirama due to Madara's pride and wanting to protect the village

on the other hand
20 kum ninja (plus the 2 bros) did not respect nor fear Tobirama
Kabuto and Oro did not respect Tobirama when they stole ET
Tobiramam's students did not respect him cuz they let the village fall. Danzo betayed the village and the elders did not believe in the Will of Fire (next generation) and Hiruzen could not kill his student

People fear and respect Kakashi, but that doesn't mean that won't try to fight him.
Tell that to Obito

first off I sai that he should have sealed them away and you have no proof that would not have been war if kept them.
I already stated this. Theire would have been a war if he kept them
-Keeping all of the bijju would be tooo dangerous
-Kumo would want to steal the bijju again
-The beast would break lose when Hashirama passed and it would be hard to control them
-Most ppl do not want to be jinjuriki and being one sucks or they can not handle it
-Akasuki would ambush the Leaf village
-Naruto is the savior so their would still be war cuz Naruto was not born
-Everyone wants to be the strongest village so villages would go after the one with the most power
-When hashirama died it would be harder to control
-The villages have no reason to not work togheter cuz they have nothing against each other
-Why would the villages not work togher?

-helped teach Hiruzen
both did

Uhuh, but everything bad about Hiruzen is solely put on Tobirama right? Hiruzen was great Hokage, who made mistakes just like everybody else.
it went on both but mostly on Tobirama for being his "official " teacher. At least hashirama helped teach the best one and not the other failure students that Tobirama taught like Danzo and the elders

Naruto's an Uzumaki too, so what is your point? what would have happened if Naruto lost control long before they even knew where the necklace was. How much good would it have done them if Naruto turned full nine tailes during his fight with pain?
IT DID NOT HAPPEN SO STOP SAYING IT. THE POINT IS THE NECKLACE GOT TO NARUTO

Oh and while we're at it Hashirama is cause of 4 wars so this goes both ways, thanks a lot Hashirama.
No not at all. Hashirama did not create the bijju. He tried to make the best out of a bad situation. Keeping the bijju was too risky and he was not going to live forever to control them. He tried to make peace. Tobirama failed when he tried. Hashirama wanted the best for his village and to keep them safe so having bomb level beats all in one place is too risky when you barley know anything about it so the best thing to do would be to share them and let other villages deal with them
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Proof that is was only for the leaf, because none of the other villages trusted the other ninja enough to enter one another village or let them enter theirs. Hiruzen, the Chunin exams was opened up as a sign of peace after the treaty of alliance was signed after the third great ninja war, Tobirama was long dead by then because he had died in the first great ninja war.
Another mistake of his students.

Hashirama caused 4 great ninja wars and yet you don't hold him responsible for that at least I know and am willing to admit that ET was a horrible idea unlike you and Hasirama's Bijuu plan.
If he was responsible for the wars then it would have been mentioned that it was his fault. You think keeping the most dangerous weapons in your villlage when you barley know anything about them is safe? Their unknown dangerous creatures that are way too poweful. They would destroy the village in an instant. Not only was Hashirama giving the bijju a sign of peace it could have also destroyed their villages. At least Hashirama shared the bijju for good intentions. Tobirama had unknown intetions that does not help anything.

Actually he's not because after thinking about it for a while, Kisame could still keep shark skin and not beat Tobirama, because after all he is the greatest water style ninja of all time.
Water Style; Giant Shark Missle BEATS ALL

Tobirama only established things? He created things that were important to the villages future
That is whay I said.

I never said that ET ever did anything good, except if we want to to get technical about it he's protected the village with it since it seems that everyone seems to know he made it. Hashirama's cells are no the only issue, it's the 4 wars his plan started as well.
4 wars 4 wars. You keep saying that but it is not true. Were they part of the reason... YES but there was much more that caused the war. If Hashirama did not share the bijju than the 4 war would already be over before it started. The Akaskui would just ambush the Leaf and steal the bijju. Even fooder Kumo ninja stole Kurama. Keeping all of your eggs in once basket is NEVER a good idea

OK then please show me where you haven't been leaving out good things that Tobirama did and then at the same time leaving out bad things that Hashirama did.
Check my posts above

Uh huh, lets see, no one else got away except for Ginkaku and Kinakau so um that pretty much says everything right there. The fact still stands that hw was killed bya no name ninja and it clearly showed in part one that he was nowhere near being old when he died. As it was said by Tsunade "being Hokage is a fools dream that caused every single on of them to die young" she said this is reference to her brother, Dan and all the Hokage (except for Hiruzen, I'm pretty sure she wasn't talking about him)
How was she not talking about Hiruzen? She said Hokage and she did not say except for! WE do not know the conditions of his death so why do you bring it up? Stop please. It will just bring up assumptions/possiblities. Tobirama was weak for letting them getting away with knowledge. Hashiramma UNKNOWLINGly let madara get away and Kurama was captured
Tobirama's sword was stolen by Aoi in the anime which was also off canon, but you still count that now don't you?
Aren't we?

Then it would be half Hashirama's fault too since he trained him as well
majoritiy is Tobirama's fault since he was the MAIN SENSEI

I'll be back with those chapter numbers, though I'm more of the person to watch things than read, eh I've read the mange plenty of times before so whatever.
Same but this is the only way

[CoolerThanIce]

In my opinion, Hashirama and Tsunade are the best hokages. Minato was great too, he just isn't my favorite.

[Shikamaru Nara]

No. He gave birth to Naruto.

[PrinceofPeace]

Minato only did ONE THING for the village! He did the least for his village. and was not even successful to live and keep on fighting.

Hiruzne-He helped but caused a lot of issues as well... but he inspired many

Tobirama-established the village but that would have happened eventually. Plus he created ET for no good reason.

Tsunade- Healed thousands and helpt rebuild the village (she has most hokage feats)

SO the best is Hashirama
-He protected the village multiple times from different threats. He defeated the strongest tag team than any other hokage has fought. He tammed the bijju and was respected by all. He is the most talked about Hokage
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This is all in order
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[Guntherock]

For now yes, but im betting he will be surpassed by his son. NARUTO UZUMAKI NO1 CANDITATE FOR HOKAGE!!!!!!YEAH!

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Guntherock

For now yes, but im betting he will be surpassed by his son. NARUTO UZUMAKI NO1 CANDITATE FOR HOKAGE!!!!!!YEAH!

lol how is he the best compared to HASHIRAMA SENJU

[Ag_Surfr]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

lol how is he the best compared to HASHIRAMA SENJU

defeated gaara

defeated pain

defeated countless enemies during the current war

is in the process of fighting obito and madara

may or may not fight/defeat a vengeful sasuke

[PrinceofPeace]

Naruto is not hokage I was talking about Minato