is the fourth the best hokage? - Page 5

Souret · 10-08-2012, 09:44 AM

I think the 3rd was the best because he was hokage for such a long time and he took part in so many wars/battles plus as has already been said he took on three really strong ninja even if two were just reserections. He saved everyone loads of times and he was like a father figure to the entire village, he was loved by almost all of them and he trained three of the most powerful ninja including a hokage candidate who trained the fourth who trained the ninja who was again a candidate for hokage, and then of course the current hokage. Plus I love his staff and he was Asuma's dad that just makes him awesome.

PrinceofPeace · 10-08-2012, 03:36 PM

[QUOTE=paradigm1977;6290053]so because Hashirama didn't know Madara got away and with a DNA sample, you give him a free pass...and say no mistakes. And that makes more sense than good wartime use of ET.
If you read my whole statement before you respond you would know that I admited that UNKNOWINGLY having Madara escape with his DNA was his ONLY mistake! ET has cost more lives than Madara escaping! Also Hashirama did not do it on purpsoe and this is his ONLY misktae as Hokage while Tobirama made many more

So it's ok to kill your enemy with ninjutsu and leave them on the battlefield. But it's not ok to kill them as part of a sacrifice for your Edo tensei ninjutsu to bring another enemy back to life to interrogate them? The cost you say I forgot is one enemy to bring back one of yours. Or two enemies to bring one of them back for interrogation.
It has never been show to use ET to interrogate someone so you can not say this happened! We do not know the intentions of this jutsu! Interrogation would not work! They would feel no pain and they could release themselves or start to break out of the ET and decay. Genjutsu would be the only option but an ET and still break out of it. Killing is just wrong peroid! Also You are playing god! WHo are you to bring back the dead! ET has not been shown to be used in this way so this is not a good feat and a very unlikely successful plan.

And using ET is not a wimp move, it's a boss move. Is Tobi's T/S ninjutsu fair (yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? how about minato's FTG(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? Rinnegan(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? Tsukoyomi(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? How about fighting against Kamui?(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job) And you are comparing Kabuto lessoning the restrictions of his ET seal, to give the ETs there own personality, to a weakness on Tobirama's part. No that was Kabuto's strategy. You don't get that argument either. Oro didn't lose control of the 1st and 2nd (yeah but Oro was standing still when the ET's were active so Oro had to focus and stand still while the ET's attacked and The ET's stood still while Oro attacked).

And you also didn't point out that the more/number of ETs controlled at once affects.... your ability to control them(another drawback of this jutsu). As kabuto told Tobi. That is how Sasori escaped, and Sai's brother. Kabuto's strategy and Oro's strategy was to fight with them(FALSE! Only Oro fought with them while Kabuto hid and made them do all the work). Just like it was kabutos strategy to lessen the restrictions. Yet you don't think Tobirama is allowed his own strategy of using them for intelligence or medic use
(it has not been seen! We do not know how he used the jutsu and what his limits were ! We only know that they were less than Oro's and Kabuto's ability! This is corrupt jutsu! Bringin back the dead to do your work when other alive people should do it.If ET did something good it would have been mentioned)?

How about this? Good guys are inherently more likely to use ET in a way that benefits their village. bad guys use ETs to benefit themselves. I say that strategy is allowed.
How can you say that when a good guy has not use that jutsu in battle?

Sarcasm won't help your cause. An attack like that is a once in a long while to a one time responsibility of a hokage. It's not a frequent thing.
It is not Sarcasm....lol..... WHile Tobirama was in charge two major attacks happened (Gold n Silve bros) n (Kinku force) Tobirama was not cruel enough nor strong enough to use ET in the battle.

I think you lost this part of the argument. He just didn't trust others to use ET, because it was dangerous and powerful.
How did I lose when I countered all of your points?? You can not prove that ET was used for good! No good guy has used that jutsu! Also we do not know how , when , why, nor what happened when he used it! How is this a good feat for Tobirama as hokage?? Hashirama invented tons of ninjutus that helped build the village... how did ET help ? ET has done more KNOWN harm than good

You ask why didn't Tobirama do this ninjutsu and that... I'll tell you. One is that when Kisami created that giant Orb of water, he was powered up with chakra from the 8 tails.(still a better feat than anything Tobirama has shown. It is not a requirment for Kisame to get that much chakra he just took the advantage of absorbing the chakra first. A 30% Kisame made a huge ocean so he can make the water globe)

It wasn't all his own chakra. So he could create more water than usual. A second reason is because if Tobirama created the usual giant flood wave Kisami rode on, then what's his brother and Oro gonna float on(actually yes by applying chakra to their feet)?

3rd, the jutsues have powered up over the course of the series. Why can't he breath underwater forever? come on... he doesn't have gills like Kisami.(cuz Tobirama sucks lol jk) It has nothing to due with water technique. The "Great Shark Bullet technique," is great if it hits. It's not the widest attack out there.(it was pretty big and it is still a stronger jutsu than anything Tobirama has shown! It goes after the ninjutsu and is not easily dodged! The jutsu would eat anything Tobirama would throw at it and Tobirama would get hit... care to explain how it does not hit Tobirama)

And using one handed seals is the mark of a genious, something never credited to Kisame anyway.(wow one feat.. big deal! Kisame has more chakra and better jutsu's! Who cares if Tobirama can do a jutsu in one hand seal! Tobirama has about 3 jutsu so it is not that impressive! How does this make Tobirama a good hokage? There is no way Kisame would lose)

You don't see summons by Tobirama so you figure he has none? How much screentime has kisami gotten? Come on.. hope you don't think kisami can defeat Tobirama(we go by feats not by screentime! Looks like Tobirama was not important enough to have screen time so deal with it! Yes Kisame would beat Tobirama how would Tobirama beat 1,000 sharks or Giant Shark Misssile? Kisame broke out of Aoba's genjutsu so he can break out of Tobirama's! Kisame can abosrb any ninjutsu from Tobirama and Kisame has shown better strenght from breakin out of wood style so and up close fight would be the end for Tobirama).

Tobirama can use genjutsu.(in the anime he could use genjutsu which is OFF-CANON so it does not count! Pluse Samehada can break him out of genjutsu or Kisame bites off his tounge! Kisame can sense his enemy with Samehada as well plus Kisame knows a lot about genjutsu from Itachi) where's Kisami's tech for that?(already explained) Where's Kisami's S/T ninjutsu? So no Kisami is not better overall. Any Konoha Kage could defeat him.

WOW that is such a lie! You think Kisame would lose to the 3rd or the 5th?????? Wow make the thread in Narutoverse or I will and I will meet you there ... are you game?

So you think Kurama is that much more powerful than a group of 20 elite ninja(yes actually! Kurama was destorying the whole leaf village until Minato got involved. ALso it took Kumo a lot of Kumo ninja to take control of their own BIjju)?

Ok, why didn't Kurama kill the Gold and Silver brothers(Because Kurama thought they died because he swallowed them! What is your point here?? The bros lost the battle over alll) ?

Why is it that 2 Akatsuki members at a time, sometimes one, can capture a jinchurikeAnd 2 akatsuki members can take out 20 kumo ninjas or the Bros! The Akatsuki members are S-rank ninja while the Kumo ninja were not)?

Do you remember that the Bijuu are weaker when not channeled through a host? It's because they are wild and don't use strategy. It's established that they are weaker without a person to guide them.(yes but they are still powerful! The Leaf vilage would have been destroyed without Minato ) Kisame took on a jinchurike by himself, yet he would have been killed by Jiraiya if not for Itachi's Ame(What is your point).

Can Jiraiya kill 20 elite ninja at the same time? No, he can't. And you have no proof ( Jiryria was fighting in the war so he did kill 20 ninja at once! That is like Saying Pain can not tkae on 20 ninja at once! So what if Jiryria canor cannot. You are getting way off topic cuz you did not mention Tobirama once so far. If you want to make a thread in the nartoverse go ahead. WIth Jiryria's Summonings all 3 boss toads he would stop them! Not to mention SOTU or SM)

Hashirama defeated kurama and Madara. Not yet. One, he had help, and two Madara split with his DNA. If Madara thinks he could lose to hashirama, then how do you know he was going all out anyway? (what are you saying??? You have not even mentioned Tobirama) Since he split with DNA that might have been the main plan. He doesnt need to risk defeat if he thinks he can get more powerful later. Until it's proven Madara slinked away in defeat as a last ditch option, you don't get this either(even Madara said that Hashriama was the stronger one! If he was not than Madara would have won! Madara could not handle Hashriama 1v1 so Madara needed Kurama while Hashirama needed NO HELP!! Tobirama could not even beat Hashirama nor Madara nor Kurama! ).

On top of that, Madara's attack was obviously to fight Hashirama, because hashirama was supposed to have to defend the city vs Madara and Kurama. Konoha being attacked was most likely the bait to draw out hashirama. So he didn't save the city.
WOW... just WOW ..... You are just assuming you have no proof but I do! The point is Hashirama did protect the leaf from Harm and hashiram did not lose the battle! Madara did ! yes Madara got away but he ran away cuz he could not win! Madara said it himself that Hashirama was stronger and the villagers saw that it was true! That is why hashirama is hokage and that is why Madara never beat Hashirama!

What chapter did it say Hashirama taught Tobirama? Honestly, Tobirama looks older. So I hope you didn't just pick Hahsirama because he was hokage first and figure, he must have taught Tobirama. And then use that as a point against me.
Big bros teach lil bros! Honestly it is not that hard to believe! What bro did not teach their young ones?? Itachi taught Saskue! Who cares if Tobirama looks older that is your opinon! The point is Hashirama is older and stronger! Hashirama also taught Hiruzen!

You are also wrong in saying that hashirama created the will of fire. He did not. That came down the line from his Senju ancesters. (Proof of that?? The point is that Hashirama started it and he was the one to bring it back and pass it down!)You claim there would be nothing to pass down if not for Hashirama? He and Tobirama got it from the clan. And Tobirama passed it to hiruzen to the sennin to naruto. Sure Hashirama trained Hiruzen too, but he was on Tobirama's team. So that is the tie breaker. Any Will of Fire claim for influencing generations goes to Tobirama.
Tobirama would not have gotten the WILL of FIRE if it was not for hashirama passing it down first to Tobirama! Tobirama did not pass this down to the Sannin the 3rd hokage did!

You are wrong in giving hashirama credit for essentially creating the village/"creating the picture" (when he wasn't hokage, the topic of this thread) and Tobirama "colored it". Awesome, Hashirama is a great carpenter with wood style. You give him "Hokage" props for that. Let's not, because that isn't a hokage role. I would have done the same thing. Any wood user would do that. Like Yamato did. You don't get that either.
Agreed

Now you want to blame Tobirama for Hiruzen's personality(I blame Tobirama for not being a good teacher and making Hiruzen to weak to confidently go after Oro!). Well should we blame Hashirama for having no students of his own of note (Hashirama taught Hiruzen and Tobirama). His only genetic connection is to Tsunade. But Hiruzens training couldn't overcome her genetic predisposition to gambling addiction and not wanting to be a medic Nin anymore and leaving Konoha(how is she involved with if Hashirama was a good kage? She was the grandaughter of Tobirama too so what is your point Hashriaram nor Tobirama taught her).

The elders had to get things going to pressure Jiraiya, another lazy bum to bring her back. Using personalities of students wont really work well for either of us and isn't indicative of the talent of the teacher. Why blame Hiruzen for the invasion of the sound? (It was not Hiruzen's fault it was DANZO's fault! He was working with Oro at the time) He was old by then. and didn't work security. No hokage does. If you want to plave all of Hiruzen's faults on Tobirama, then I take away ALL your will of fire pass down that went through Hiruzen. Which means I get Naruto. He, jiraiya, kakashi, and Minato all came through him.
Again I am lost by your logic

I'll think more on the police force thing.(what is their to think about??) You would like to say that Tobirama was wrong for establishing that to restrain Uchiha influence(yeah cuz it is true! It was wrong .. how was it right). So even if(there is no if you can not prove that I am wrong) it was done negatively/that way, rather than a show of good faith, we should assume he was wrong to do so. And yet the 3rd wanted to work things out, but the Uchiha weren't gonna have it.(wrong again!! It was not the Uchiha's that caused the problem it was TOBIRAMA's STUDENTS!! (the elders and Danzo) they also did not trust the Uchiha's and they wanted Itachi to kill them all! See how wrong and corrupted Tobirama's students are!!! This shows that Tobirama was a bad teacher and that his students followed his unujust ways) I guess we also have to assume the Uchiha have to join the police force? That way it's a real negative. On this part, I have to brush up.(See thank you for finally agreeing! This was one of Tobirmama's mistakes/failures as Hokage! )[/QUOTE]

The point is yet again Hashriama made less mistakes/failures as Hokage
-Unknowingly/Unwillingly Madara escaped with his DNA (in his defense This was a very intense situation! They are both S-level foes and Madara used Izangmi to fake the death).

Tobirama's failures
-Did not trust the Uchiha and the uchiah started to rebel
-Defeated by 20 Kumo ninja (we do not know their power level and we Tobirama did not even defeat all 20.... this is not as impressive as hashirama's battle)
-Devloped Edo tensi ( there are no good SHOWN feats of ET doing good ! Overall the jutsu has done more harm than good)
-Taught Danzo and elders (Elders are lazy and fight Tsuande and do not trust Naruto. Danzo is corrupted and selfish and did not like How Tobirama picked the Hokage plus Danzo worked with Oro)

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@ People who think Hiruzen was the best Hokage

..... Honestly what did he do as Hokage? He did not help improve the village at all!!! All he did was
-Lead the village during war
-Regained titile as Hokage
-Letting Saskue survive
-"taking care or Naruto"-he did not do the best job of that

But that does not compare to his mistakes
-Not killing Oro when he had the chance
-Standing by while the Uchiha Massacure happened (he should of stopped it)
-Doing nothing during the Hyga incident
-Did not improve the village's status
-Defeated by Oro and Edo's
-Not respected (people talked about the beast inside Naruto which was agianst the law)
-Naruto (who was not even a genin) stole a secret Scroll

Hiruzen was the longest reigning Hokage but he did not do much! He is all hype

No matter how you slice it Hashirama is teh BEST hokage cuz he made less mistakes and had a lot of success
Hashirama
-protected the vilage from Madara and Kurama
-Shared the bijju with other countries as a sign of peace
-defeated kakazu
-Raised his brother to take care of the villag and be hokage
-Kept and passed down a scroll of pwerful ninjutsu

BTW
-You are assuming way too much and I doubt you are very knowledable on the subject because you did not know (and are still doubting) that Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha

You asssume that ET was used for good but even if your scneiro was possible they would have thought of it yet they did not use it. Summonings someone from the dead would have been mentiond! THe good guys are just too good to use ET.
Even if ET was good ... how does it prove that Tobirama was a great hokage?ET is just a jutsu! He did not use it to defeat or use it to help make the village better

Most ppl thought the jutsu was a disgrace (like the kages from other regions) ! Tobirama was not highly respected. He was taken the the easiest out of all the hokages.

The only thing he did was Orgainze the village and fight the kumo nin.... not very impresses! It is like how you said Hashirama was like a carpenter. I would have done the same thing as Tobirama and orginze the village with rules

paradigm1977 · 10-08-2012, 10:36 PM

@princeofpeace.

Requoting is now too much effort for each of our extremely long posts. But here is a few things I remember from the one you just posted.

Kisame didn't create an ocean, it was a single wave that became a lake - at rest.

You say Hashirama trained Tobirama, when that was never shown, Yet you also say that I cant say ET was used for good intent even though we didn't see that. You get training, I can't habve motivation for usage. You reference Itachi teaching Sasuke. Proof? Ninjutsu? I only remember Itachi pushing him away.

You also claim that Hashirama taught Tobirama the Will of Fire. Really? It wasn't their father? Maybe a sensei senju to both of them? See you claim things that weren't shown than offer an easy alternative. Then you say I can't have an easy alternative, because we didn't see it. Where does Hashirama get the credit for inventing the will of fire? He didn't it started with the younger son wanting peace and love and it evolved down the line of his descendants. Do you have a chapter saying Hashirama invented it?

I know I won't change your mind on the possibility of ET being used for good.

Kurama didn't swallow the gold and silver bros. intentionally. They jumped into it's mouth on purpose. So that wasn't accurate.

Your first quote is that I didn't read your full statement. I did read it all. You referenced the wrong post of your own.

You didn't really counter me by saying ET is not a wimp move by saying, "he used other people." That's it's own power. Mind control in a story of mutants in X-men is not a wimp power. Its a power and very effective. It is what it is, the only wimp powers are those that aren't effective. I don't expect you to change your mind on this, so there's no point to argue that anymore.

You told me "False," when I mentioned that it was Oro and Kabuto's strategy to fight "with them." in reference to why their particular strategy in using ETs, when I say Tobirama can have his own. You totally missed that "with" is correct when you are are referring to ETs as a tool to use. I am saying they are using ETs to fight. Like using a knife. ETs are ninjutsu, you fight with ninjutsu. I didn't say they fought with/beside. I was showing with/possession. That went over your head, when you should have really assumed the context was used in a way to match what happened.

I do have to give you the point on Tobirama using Genjutsu and the anime not being cannon. And Kisame, if he wants to bite off his tongue, could break out of the genjutsu Tobirama may or might not have.

You told me tobirama did not pass down the will of fire to the sennin, Hiruzen did. Yes but you had created the initial context before me when you said Hashirama passed down the will of fire. As if he has influenced the generations of ninja, since you also claim Hashirama created it. So you are letting me say Hiruzen tained the senin, but did not pass the will of fire to them. But those were actually seperate points and maybe posts by you. So you created the lineage context not me. And that was your context because you want to claim the will of fire solely for hashirama, and say he passed it down. And you think Tobirama was a horiible teacher than claim hahasirama trained Tobirama, no proof, we don't even know the age seperation and you give hashirama credit for Hiruzen. Hiruzen was Tobirama's prized student, hashirama was Iruka sensei. hahha. thats going to far. But really, the best hashirama did for teaching was share, to some extend hiruzen. That's it. There is no lineage of those trained by Hashirama himself, but it had to be hashirama that gave the Will of Fire to everyone. Where does the manga say that?

Another of your points is that when I said Hashirama did not defeat Madara and Kurama, you first say, what about Tobirama, I didn't mention him, then say that madara even admitted Hashirama was stronger. You first You miss the fact that the initial context of this started with you saying Hashirama defended the city and defeated Madara and Kurama. And that was a feat for Hashirama and saying he's the best hokage. So the point I was making wasn't for me to push Tobirama, but to take away from you pushing Hashirams Hokage rep with this. The context is Madara's motivation in THAT FIGHT, was to gain DNA. But you warp this aspect of our debate into Hashirama is stronger so of course he won and Madara left. And madara should have killed him and taken the DNA. Saying hashirama is stronger than Madara is not the same thing as giving rep on defending the city as a hokage role when Madara attacked. And the point of view on this was Tobi's and he finished with "or so they thought..." meaning Madara did not die.

I did forget that chakra can be applied to feet so Tobirama could use a large water attack. However you saved me by contradicting yourself. with useful knowledge. If Oro isn't attacking/movng because he has to focus on the ETs when they attack.... so how can he move chakra to his feet to float on the water when Tobirama does that big attack we didn't get to see? ? So that means that this swings back to me as a legit reason why Tobiama shouldn't flood the area. And I know your counter is that there was still no feat.

You said the great shark bullet "goes after ninjutsu." I don't think that is correct, the great shark bullet goes in the direction you fire/aim it, just like a standard shark bullet.

You say I'm wrong and it Tobirama's students who caused the problem with the Uchiha, not the uchiha clan. You say It was the Elders and Danzo worried about them. But they started the problem. I reread ch. 590 where Itachi explains everything to Sasake. All it covered was that there was gonna be a coup and that would weaken the village so Danzo and the advisors wanted the Uchiha dead. Danzo wanted Itachi to kill the Uchiha, so the village wouldn't have a civil war and be weakened. So this whole plan came after the intel of an uprising. And we already knew that there really was gonna be a coup. So you are wrong again. So what chapter supports what you are saying?

I said Jiraya can't kill 20 elite ninja at once. You wrote, he was in the war, of course he killed 20 at once. That isn't even a logical assumption. At least when I argued for ET it was an argument of motiavation. You are argueing an unseen battle.

I mentioned That it wasn't Hiruzen's fault that the hidden sound attacked. You write, it wasn't it was danzo's for working with Oro. But I was commenting on you first, listing the invasion of the sound as a fault for Hiruzen being Hokage. And you messed up the context again, because you aren't following what you initially wrote, to understand how I'm commenting on it. Then I mention you cant blame Tobirama as a teacher for mistakes his students make. That is drawing your criticism in Hiruzen making mistakes and not being the best hokage to your saying Tobirama's students sucked. You said both. So this should make sense in me stating don't blame Tobirama for the mistakes of his students. or their personalities/decision making mistakes.

All in all we both had points that were correct and incorrect. I've had a hard time finding a mention of the the will of fire originating from the younger son and into the senju clan. But also if it started with Hashirama. But I pointed out where in the story you were also wrong, and how you have not followed my context in some areas because you weren't following it as it's own response to your prior statement. So, I say and offer a consssion that you might know more than me on Naruto, but I cant argue with someone and put out this kind of effort when you lose track of context and don't let me be subjective when you are. You just aren't following a lot of things.

It's too much effort to take this further. we went too in depth on too many areas. The last two posts took forever.

my concessions of defeat.

Maybe I should change my mind on Tsunade powering up and beating Kisami with Taijutsu? I'll give that to you, and even Hiruzen.

And since I don't know how fast Tobirama can use whatever S/T jutsu he has, we'll say he can't block great shark bullet. though frankly, it's not that big that you can't avoid it. It's not kakuzu wind and fire combo toasting kakashi, or Madara's flame or 1000 sharks...powerful IF it hits. Unless a more powerful water or earth jutsu blocks it. Or a rinnegan.

PrinceofPeace · 10-09-2012, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

@princeofpeace.

Requoting is now too much effort for each of our extremely long posts. But here is a few things I remember from the one you just posted.

Kisame didn't create an ocean, it was a single wave that became a lake - at rest.
still more impressive than anyting Tobirama did with water ninjutsu. I think it was a lake but it just looked so huge like an ocean... idk it was big

You say Hashirama trained Tobirama, when that was never shown, Yet you also say that I cant say ET was used for good intent even though we didn't see that. You get training, I can't habve motivation for usage. You reference Itachi teaching Sasuke. Proof? Ninjutsu? I only remember Itachi pushing him away.
I was hoping you would bring up this point. Yes there is no proof for each point so we can not assume there for ET was onl

You also claim that Hashirama taught Tobirama the Will of Fire. Really? It wasn't their father? Maybe a sensei senju to both of them? See you claim things that weren't shown than offer an easy alternative. Then you say I can't have an easy alternative, because we didn't see it. Where does Hashirama get the credit for inventing the will of fire? He didn't it started with the younger son wanting peace and love and it evolved down the line of his descendants. Do you have a chapter saying Hashirama invented it?
Agreed my fualt

I know I won't change your mind on the possibility of ET being used for good.
Well we have not seen it be used in a good way. Even if it was it is not worth the deaths caused and the wrongness of playing with the dead

Kurama didn't swallow the gold and silver bros. intentionally. They jumped into it's mouth on purpose. So that wasn't accurate.
....They still did not beat Kurama

Your first quote is that I didn't read your full statement. I did read it all. You referenced the wrong post of your own.
lol which one??

You didn't really counter me by saying ET is not a wimp move by saying, "he used other people." That's it's own power. Mind control in a story of mutants in X-men is not a wimp power. Its a power and very effective. It is what it is, the only wimp powers are those that aren't effective. I don't expect you to change your mind on this, so there's no point to argue that anymore.
IMO it is a wrong jutsu! The way kabuto uses it is very effective but seeing that Tobirama is the worst at it.... I doubt he would be good
You told me "False," when I mentioned that it was Oro and Kabuto's strategy to fight "with them." in reference to why their particular strategy in using ETs, when I say Tobirama can have his own. You totally missed that "with" is correct when you are are referring to ETs as a tool to use. I am saying they are using ETs to fight. Like using a knife. ETs are ninjutsu, you fight with ninjutsu. I didn't say they fought with/beside. I was showing with/possession. That went over your head, when you should have really assumed the context was used in a way to match what happened.
Well at this point I doubt Tobirama actually used the jutsu! We do not know how he used it if at all! He probably tried it once and thought it was too powerful or hard to contain... maybe he thought it was immorall to use? Overall this is an EVIL jutsu used for EVIL puposses.

I do have to give you the point on Tobirama using Genjutsu and the anime not being cannon. And Kisame, if he wants to bite off his tongue, could break out of the genjutsu Tobirama may or might not have.
Also I belive Samehada could sense his enemy

You told me tobirama did not pass down the will of fire to the sennin, Hiruzen did. Yes but you had created the initial context before me when you said Hashirama passed down the will of fire. As if he has influenced the generations of ninja, since you also claim Hashirama created it. So you are letting me say Hiruzen tained the senin, but did not pass the will of fire to them. But those were actually seperate points and maybe posts by you. So you created the lineage context not me. And that was your context because you want to claim the will of fire solely for hashirama, and say he passed it down. And you think Tobirama was a horiible teacher than claim hahasirama trained Tobirama, no proof, we don't even know the age seperation and you give hashirama credit for Hiruzen(Hiruzen did say that Hashirama was his sensi that is why oro brought Hashriama back from the dead to play with Hiruzen's emotions. Tobirmam taught more things to Hiruzen but Hashirama also helped train him. Unlike Hashirama he did not teach any bad kids like Tobirama did). Hiruzen was Tobirama's prized student, hashirama was Iruka sensei. hahha. thats going to far. But really, the best hashirama did for teaching was share, to some extend hiruzen. That's it. There is no lineage of those trained by Hashirama himself, but it had to be hashirama that gave the Will of Fire to everyone. Where does the manga say that?
I agree with you about the Will of Fire! Hashirama and TObirama both passed it down from their clan yet the SO6P younger son started it.

Another of your points is that when I said Hashirama did not defeat Madara and Kurama, you first say, what about Tobirama, I didn't mention him, then say that madara even admitted Hashirama was stronger. You first You miss the fact that the initial context of this started with you saying Hashirama defended the city and defeated Madara and Kurama. And that was a feat for Hashirama and saying he's the best hokage. So the point I was making wasn't for me to push Tobirama, but to take away from you pushing Hashirams Hokage rep with this. The context is Madara's motivation in THAT FIGHT, was to gain DNA (proof? Are you saying Madara had no intention of killing Hashirama? Madara could have gotten the DNA and left but he choose to stay and fight). But you warp this aspect of our debate into Hashirama is stronger so of course he won and Madara left. And madara should have killed him and taken the DNA. Saying hashirama is stronger than Madara is not the same thing as giving rep on defending the city as a hokage role when Madara attacked. And the point of view on this was Tobi's and he finished with "or so they thought..." meaning Madara did not die.
Overall this is a win for hashirama.. but no a complete victory
-Hashirama defeated Kurama and Madara while protecting the village
BUT
-Madara lived (barely) and escaped with hashriama's DNA

I did forget that chakra can be applied to feet so Tobirama could use a large water attack. However you saved me by contradicting yourself. with useful knowledge. If Oro isn't attacking/movng because he has to focus on the ETs when they attack.... so how can he move chakra to his feet to float on the water when Tobirama does that big attack we didn't get to see? ? So that means that this swings back to me as a legit reason why Tobiama shouldn't flood the area. And I know your counter is that there was still no feat.
Have no fear Hashirama is Here!! Hashirama can use wood style to make a dome to protect himself and Oro! Oro does not have to move and does not have to apply chakra to his feet

You said the great shark bullet "goes after ninjutsu." I don't think that is correct, the great shark bullet goes in the direction you fire/aim it, just like a standard shark bullet.
Your right it does not home in on ninjutsu but it is not as easy to dodge it as you think. This jutsu is still stronger than anything Tobirama has shown that can be used so quickly.

You say I'm wrong and it Tobirama's students who caused the problem with the Uchiha, not the uchiha clan(it takes 2 to tango! The Uchiha's did have some fault but the elders should have trusted the uchiha). You say It was the Elders and Danzo worried about them. But they started the problem. I reread ch. 590 where Itachi explains everything to Sasake. All it covered was that there was gonna be a coup and that would weaken the village so Danzo and the advisors wanted the Uchiha dead(If Tobirama trusted the Uchiha and did not distance them from the village than the Uchiha would have no reason for a coup. The elders should have agreed with Hiruzen and talked it out). Danzo wanted Itachi to kill the Uchiha, so the village wouldn't have a civil war and be weakened. So this whole plan came after the intel of an uprising. And we already knew that there really was gonna be a coup. So you are wrong again. So what chapter supports what you are saying?
chp. 399 clearly shows that Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha's
as you brout up lets look at the first few pages of chp.590- it clearly shows that Hiruzen was against the Uchiha massacure! he wanted to talke with them and use words and let him think of a stragtey! he was the only one that was taught by Hashirama.. (and Tobirama) that wanted peace BUT the other elders (taught by Tobirama) wanted to fight and kill

I said Jiraya can't kill 20 elite ninja at once. You wrote, he was in the war, of course he killed 20 at once. That isn't even a logical assumption. At least when I argued for ET it was an argument of motiavation. You are argueing an unseen battle.
And the every fight of Tobirama has also been unseen. The point is Kurama is a bigger threat than 20kumo ninja. When Kurama was attacking the leaf it took on more than 20 ninja! The 3rd could not handle it alone it took the whole village!

I mentioned That it wasn't Hiruzen's fault that the hidden sound attacked. You write, it wasn't it was danzo's for working with Oro. But I was commenting on you first, listing the invasion of the sound as a fault for Hiruzen being Hokage( Oh well I meant Danzo my bad?) . And you messed up the context again, because you aren't following what you initially wrote, to understand how I'm commenting on it. Then I mention you cant blame Tobirama as a teacher for mistakes his students make(if you can not blame them for their mistakes than you can not take credit for their success! So the teaching feats for all hokages do not matter then). That is drawing your criticism in Hiruzen making mistakes and not being the best hokage to your saying Tobirama's students sucked. You said both. So this should make sense in me stating don't blame Tobirama for the mistakes of his students. or their personalities/decision making mistakes.
Teachers should take credit for the good and the bad
also
Hiruzen did have some fault in the sound/sand invasion! He could have cancelled the exams and he should have killed Oro from the start

All in all we both had points that were correct and incorrect. I've had a hard time finding a mention of the the will of fire originating from the younger son and into the senju clan. But also if it started with Hashirama. But I pointed out where in the story you were also wrong, and how you have not followed my context in some areas because you weren't following it as it's own response to your prior statement. So, I say and offer a consssion that you might know more than me on Naruto, but I cant argue with someone and put out this kind of effort when you lose track of context and don't let me be subjective when you are. You just aren't following a lot of things.
Agreed we both sux... and ROCK!!

It's too much effort to take this further. we went too in depth on too many areas. The last two posts took forever.

my concessions of defeat.

Maybe I should change my mind on Tsunade powering up and beating Kisami with Taijutsu? I'll give that to you, and even Hiruzen.

And since I don't know how fast Tobirama can use whatever S/T jutsu he has, we'll say he can't block great shark bullet. though frankly, it's not that big that you can't avoid it. It's not kakuzu wind and fire combo toasting kakashi, or Madara's flame or 1000 sharks...powerful IF it hits. Unless a more powerful water or earth jutsu blocks it. Or a rinnegan.

I think my major mistakes were
-Will of Fire did not come from Hashirama
-Hashirama teach Tobirama

Those were my major mistakes that I will admit to but this does not make Hashirama a bad hokage

Hashirama made less mistakes than Tobirama and hashirama did more for the world. He is stronger than his lil brother as well

The only thing Tobirama did was organize the village

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-09-2012, 02:54 PM

I say the second Hokage was the best, he created the police force in order to give the Uchiha clan purpose, he created the ninja academy in order for future generations of the leaf village shinobi to be taught. He created so many programs that are important and useful to the village today.

He also IMO was the first in of a line of very important and great men and poerful shinobi.

I mean just think about it he taught Hiruzen who taught Jiraya, who taught Minato, who Taught Kakashi who taught Naruto.

He was also as considered to be one of the strongest ninja of his era and second right behind his brother Hashirama, he could create massive amounts of water out of thin air and preform poerful water ninjutsu without the need of a water source. Now he may not have been the most powerful, but IMO he was the best.

@Prince

In defense of the whole Tobirama being killed by 20 Kumo ninja, it was not that simple, it was 20 Kumo ninja specifically trained the Kill Tobirama so I personally can see how that would be hard. the whole village was just specifically trained the take down Kurama, even one person specifically trained to kill you is difficult to overcome so just think about if it were 20 shinobi specifically trained to kill you, to know you strengths and weaknesses. I mean only two of them survived so give the man some credit.

PrinceofPeace · 10-09-2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

I say the second Hokage was the best, he created the police force in order to give the Uchiha clan purpose,
I would not give Tobirama credit for the Police Force ! I explained above already why it was not a good thing. The Police Force did not give the uchiha's "Purpose"! It was just a way for them to be in once spot so it made the ANBU watching them a lot easier. Tobirama did not trust the uchiha and this was his sneaky way of giving them a false sense that he trusted them! Tobirama just wanted to separate them from the leaf. Tobi explains it best when he tells Saskue the truth about The Uchiha's

he created the ninja academy in order for future generations of the leaf village shinobi to be taught. He created so many programs that are important and useful to the village today.
This is the ONLY thing I give Tobirama credit for.

He also IMO was the first in of a line of very important and great men and poerful shinobi.

I mean just think about it he taught Hiruzen(Hashirama also taught hiruzen so I guess he gets credit for him and his students as well!

! Hiruzen did not teach bad students unlike Tobirama did !) who taught Jiraya, who taught Minato, who Taught Kakashi who taught Naruto.
I doubt Tobirama can take credit for his student's students... STUDENTS!!! But if you want to include the good children.... YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE THE BAD AS WELL! Tobirama also taught Danzo and look at the trouble he caused! Danzo was evil! He misused the ANBU and formed ROOT to take down the Hokage! Danzo worked with Oro and they almost destoryed the Leaf! Danzo also killed an innocent frog from delivering a message! Danzo did not help when Pain was invading! Danzo also tried to use genjutsu to have things his way. Bassically Danzo is selfish!
Also lets not forget the elders! The elders always fought with Tsuande and they did not have faith in their next generation especially Naruto! Do not forget what casued the Uchiha Massacure!!! Danzo and the elders enforced it to happen!!! They were full of distrust and wanted the Uchiha's dead instead of putting love and faith into them!
Hiruzen was not perfect either! He failed to kill Oro when he had the chance and he did not stop the Uchiha Massacure from happening!
Overall Tobirama was not the best teacher

He was also as considered to be one of the strongest ninja of his era(that is not very impressive he is still the weakest hokage and all hokages are the strongest in thier era..... but I serisouly doubt he was the strongest when Muu or 2MK would have easily taken him down) and second right behind his brother Hashirama, he could create massive amounts of water out of thin air and preform poerful water ninjutsu without the need of a water source(as well as Kisame!!!). Now he may not have been the most powerful, but IMO he was the best.
Why he only did one thing which was organizing the village! He had many mistakes while Hashirama only made one mistake! Do not forget the legacy of him! Thanks to Tobirama Kabuto is able to bring back and undead army to wreck havic on mortals. This jutsu has wrongfully brought back the dead as play things! The dead should stay dead! Tobirama had no control of the jutsu and he should have destroyed it! We have seen no substaial good come out of ET!

@Prince

In defense of the whole Tobirama being killed by 20 Kumo ninja, it was not that simple, it was 20 Kumo ninja specifically trained the Kill Tobirama so I personally can see how that would be hard. the whole village was just specifically trained the take down Kurama, even one person specifically trained to kill you is difficult to overcome so just think about if it were 20 shinobi specifically trained to kill you, to know you strengths and weaknesses. I mean only two of them survived so give the man some credit.
How do you know that the team was trained to kill Tobirama? Also Even if someone had knowledge on Kurama it would still be hard to defeat! Not to mention MADARA UCHIHA! Each could kill 20 kumo ninja! I am not saying that Tobirama is weak for losing to them but I am saying that
Madara Uchiha AND Kurama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>20 kumo ninja
Those 2 are way more of a threat than 20 kumo ninja! Even if those ninja had knowledge/prep how would they stop a TBB? Or susanoo? or Genjutsu? or Amaterasu? honestly do you guys really think 20 fodder kumo ninja can beat those 2?

Tobirama made the most mistakes as a hokage

Tobirama is referenced a lot during the war and many ppl proably wished he was never born due to the ET! If I was a solder in the war and I had to fight my undead friend I would be like " Thanks a lot Tobirama"

Tobirama is the weakest hokage (without prep and knowledge for Tobirama and Tsuande (which most battles happen under those conditions) Tsuande would crush him with Yiin release and kataysu acid spam)

Hashirama is the BEST hokage because he only made one mistake and he did a lot for not only his village BUT THE NINJA WORLD and he was respected/feared for his power

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-09-2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Tobirama made the most mistakes as a hokage

Tobirama is referenced a lot during the war and many ppl proably wished he was never born due to the ET! If I was a solder in the war and I had to fight my undead friend I would be like " Thanks a lot Tobirama"

Tobirama is the weakest hokage (without prep and knowledge for Tobirama and Tsuande (which most battles happen under those conditions) Tsuande would crush him with Yiin release and kataysu acid spam)

Hashirama is the BEST hokage because he only made one mistake and he did a lot for not only his village BUT THE NINJA WORLD and he was respected/feared for his power

OK first off lets get something straight, first off Hashirama NEVER taught Hiruzen, Hiruzen only got close to Hashirama because of Tobirama. I never said I gave him credit, I just found it interesting how all these people were basically alike on some way when it came to their morals.

Tobirama did not make the police force to trap the uchiha, the elders of the village decided that they weren't going to trust the uchiha. Tobirama made the ninja academy, the Anbu Black Ops and the military force. The village would be nothing without him.

Tobirama made ET, so freaking what, he's not the first man to invent a forbidden jutsu and we don't know what purpose his jutsu was for. For all we know he might have felt bad about Madara's brother and wanted to bring him back to life for all we know.

Tobirama taught Danzo, so waht Hiruzen taught Orochimaru, Jiraya taught Nagato, Mitato taught Obito and Kakashi taught Sasuke, so what is your point? Him having a evil student doesn't make him a bad Hokage or teacher, you can't control what other people do, you can only teach them the best way you can, but if they decide that they want to screw up then that is on them. Sure you might feel guilty, but it's not your fault.

Tobirama was the second strongest right behind his brother which mean there weren't many people who could beat him. He was a powerful water ninja and unlike Kisame he didn't need a chakra stealing sword to be that strong.

I know because it was stated in the manga when they were describing the silver in gold brothers, they were apart of a special force put together that was trained specifically to kill Tobirama. Tobirama killed everyone in that force, except for them who barely escaped with their lives and had severe injuries when they left the fight, so I hardly call that being weak.

I never said that it would be easy to handle Kurama, but I bet money if the Uzumaki clan had still been around and had been specifically trained to handle him that it would have been much easier.

I know that Tobirama wasn't the strongest Hokage, but IMO we was the second strongest behind his brother, not counting if Tsunade used strength of a hundred which even then she would have hard time with him.

It's my opinion and you don't get to tell me who I should or should not think was great Hokage, but I am allowed to defend my choice against whatever dirt you might try and throw at him.

So in closing he wasn't the strongest, but he was the best, name one Hokage that's done more for the village than him? and don't bring up Hashirama protecting the village because they've all protected the village before tell me something Hashirama's actually done for the village?

PrinceofPeace · 10-09-2012, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

OK first off lets get something straight, first off Hashirama NEVER taught Hiruzen(ummmm actually Hashirama did teach Hiruzen), Hiruzen only got close to Hashirama because of Tobirama. I never said I gave him credit, I just found it interesting how all these people were basically alike on some way when it came to their morals.
Oro summoned both Hokages to play with Hiruzen's emotions. Tobirama and Hashirama both taught Hirzuen! Did Tobirama teach Hirzuen more... yes! But was he the only one to teach him ? NO!! Hashirama helped!

Tobirama did not make the police force to trap the uchiha, the elders of the village decided that they weren't going to trust the uchiha. Tobirama made the ninja academy, the Anbu Black Ops and the military force. The village would be nothing without him.
saying the village would be nothing without it is a bit too far. Tobirama made the police force to distance the Uchiha's from government affairs. Tobi explains that in chapter 398

Tobirama made ET, so freaking what, he's not the first man to invent a forbidden jutsu and we don't know what purpose his jutsu was for. For all we know he might have felt bad about Madara's brother and wanted to bring him back to life for all we know.
So you think brining back Madrara's bother is worth killing an innocent person as a sacrifical pawn? Madara is dead so why bring back an Uchiha when Tobirama does not trust the Uchiha's I do not care what the reason is! It is not right to play with the dead like your god! You should do the work in battle yourself! We do not know anything of how or why Tobirama created the jutsu! ALl we know is that the jutsu has casued a lot of deaths and is immoral! How is ET good? Tobirama should have completley destoryed/sealed the jutsu away

Tobirama taught Danzo, so waht Hiruzen taught Orochimaru, Jiraya taught Nagato, Mitato taught Obito and Kakashi Taught Sasuke, so what is your point. Him having a evil student doesn't make him a bad Hokage or teacher, you can't control what other people do, you can teach them the best way you can, but if they decide that they want to screw up then that is on them.
The teacher is responsible for the success and failures of their students. Kakashi blames himself that Saskue has turned bad. If you do not take credit for who they are than this is not a good feat at all.

Tobirama was the second strongest right behind his brother which mean there weren't many people who could beat him. He was a powerful water ninja and unlike Kisame he didn't need chakra stealing sword to be that strong.
Tobirama is not the 2nd strongest hokage! Minato or the 3rd even Tsunade could defeat him! Tobirama was not even the strongest of his era! The 2MK or the 2TK could take him any day! kisame could beat Tobirama without his sword in one move! Tobirama did not have Samehada when he was fighting guy and 1,000 sharks or Giant Shark Missle would finish Tobirama

I know because it was stated in the manga when they were describing the silver in gold brothers, they were apart of a special force put together that trained specifically o kill Tobirama.(I need chapter and page please or I do not belive you! I know you do not doing this but it can not be helped! I know they were special but that does not mean they were specifically to kill Tobirama) Tobirama killed everyone in that force, except for them who barely escaped with their lives and had severe injuries when they left the fight, so I hardly call that being weak.
Compared to Hashirama defeating Madara and Kurama.. it just does not compare! 20 kumo ninja are nothing compared to the strongest bijju and the strongest uchiha!

I never said that it would be easy to handle Kurama, but I bet money if the Uzumaki clan had still been around and specifically trained the handle him that it would have been much easier.
But could they Handle Madara aswell???? HECK NO!! Kurmama could beat the Uzuamki's by fighting long ranged with sonic roars and throwing stuff or TBB

I know that Tobirama wasn't the strongest Hokage, but IMO we was the second strongest behind his brother, not counting if Tsunade used strength of a hundred which even then she would have hard time with him.
Tobirama was not even the 2nd strongest senju ! Tobirama was not even teh 2nd strongest Kage so what do you mean 2nd strongest?

It's my opinion and you don't get to tell me who I should or should not think was great Hokage, but I am allowed to defend my choice against whatever dirt you might try and throw at him.
Go ahead I am just going to TRY and counter the points you make that you think or good while I say while they might not be as good as you think (like the police force or ET)
The point is Tobirama did more debatle things or mistakes than hashirama did

So in closing he wasn't the strongest, but he was the best, name one Hokage that's done more for the village that him? and don't bring up Hashirama protecting the village because they've all protected the village before tell me something Hashirama's actually done for the village?
Here is a list
1-Tamed Bijju and shared them with other villages
-Not only was this a good way to strenghten his village but this showed how powerful hashiram was and this act made peace with other nations. Hashirama kept the strongest bijju and sealed it within his wife.

2-Protected his scroll of secrets
-Had a scroll of powerful techiniques that he kept out of the hands of evil.This helped keep the village strong

3-Defeaeted Kakazu
-it is not fair to say that you can not bring up a feat that Hashirama has done while Hokage! Your just saying that cuz hashirama has protected the village more times successfully without dying

4-Sealing abiltieis
-passed down his necklace to help seal bijju! Unlike Tobirama Hashirama is still referenced a lot more in a postivie way! If it was not for hashirama passing down the necklace 4Tails naruto would have killed Yamato and Sakura

5-Other
-Helped train Hiruzen
-Helped pass down the Will of Fire
-Was feared/respected and was the strongest of the kages

Tobirama's actions are debatable to say the least! Hashirama did not make as many mistakes and he did a lot for his village!

The only thing I give credit tor Tobirama for is establishing the
-Chunnin Exams
-Academy

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-09-2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Tobirama's actions are debatable to say the least! Hashirama did not make as many mistakes and he did a lot for his village!

The only thing I give credit tor Tobirama for is establishing the
-Chunnin Exams
-Academy

Tobirama was Hiruzens Sensei, not Hashirama

Once again you have no idea what his intentions for this jutsu was, you have no idea if Tobirama even got as far as using a sacrifice, as it was said he never perfected it, but they never said why. For all we know he could have stopped developing the jutsu before it even got that far.

If I'm not mistaken Hashirama is the reason for medical ninjutsu and look what became of that, dark medical ninjutsu, poision, even more effective ways of doing human experimentation, you cannot blame Tobirama for what became of his jutsu.

Yes, because Madara has no reason to lie on the Senju, the man who hates them so much that when he wasn't chosen to be Hokage just up and left his clan and then sent Obito back to help kill his clan, who he claimed to only want to protect.

We don't know when he first started working on that jutsu and we have no idea if he even got so far as to even use human sacrifices so let's not even try that one.

Now you know that is not true, Tobirama was the second strongest Senju, he and Hashirama were the strongest Senju, just like Madara and Izuna were the strongest Uchiha. Hiruzen could not defeat Tobirama and without strength of a hundred Tsunade has no chance either and you know it.

How can he hold himself responsible when he was dead by the time Danzo went bad? He's not responsible for Danzo's personal choices, that's like if you had a son who became a serial killer, you could have raised him the best you could, to be kind and know killing was wrong, but if he decided to kill people that's on him. Now of course emotionally you're going to think it's your fault, but in truth it is not, plain and simple.

Yes, Hashirama gave the other villages weapons to use against his home which they did not hesitate to use. Yes let all give ever country a WMD, that will solve everything.

I say don't bring it up because as the Hokage, it's your job to protect the village, so they've all done it, there's nothing special about what Hashirama did in that department.

You say Tobirama was killed by fodder ninja, well um news flash so was Hashirama so how weak does that make him? the fodder ninja sent after him weren't trained specifically to kill him and not single on of them were special unlike the silver and gold brothers who barely managed to kill Tobirama.

And I don't see what is so special about the Hashirama protecting a ninja scroll that Naruto and failure academy student was able to steal, if he was so great about protecting it, he would have placed jutsu trap or something.

Passing down the will of fire is not something you can just give Hashirama credit for alone it was started with the younger son and passed down to the Senju it was an ideal that he, his brother and his entire clan shared and passed on to the villagers.

All Hasirama did was protect to the village which isn't special because they all did it and he helped build the village with his wood style. It may be harsh to say so, but it is true that the village would be nothing without him.

PrinceofPeace · 10-09-2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

Tobirama was Hiruzens Sensei, not Hashirama
Yes Tobirama was the sensi of Hiruzen but Hashirama helped teach hiruzen you can find that in any Hashirama bio! I know you read Narutopedia and you can find it there! It was also mention in the first 5 min of ep.71 by Oro before the edo's attack.

Once again you have no idea what his intentions for this jutsu was, you have no idea if Tobirama even got as far as using a sacrifice, as it was said he never perfected it, but they never said why. For all we know he could have stopped developing the jutsu before it even got that far.
He must have used a sacrifice and finished the jutsu cuz Tobirama recongnized the jutsu when Oro finished it . Plus the ANBU member knew what it was. The point is that Tobirama started the jutsu

If I'm not mistaken Hashirama is the reason for medical ninjutsu and look what became of that, dark medical ninjutsu, poision, even more effective ways of doing human experimentation, you cannot blame Tobirama for what became of his jutsu.
You can not prove Hashirama was the reason for med ninjutsu! You can not prove that he was the first to use it. Comparing this with ET is ridculous! Unlike ET Medical ninjutsu has been used for good intentions and saved lives.... ET on the other hand just causes pain and death EVERY SINGLE TIME

Yes, because Madara has no reason to lie on the Senju, the man who hates them so much that when he wasn't chosen to be Hokage just up and left his clan and then sent Obito back to help kill his clan, who he claimed to only want to protect.
Can you prove Madara lied? When has Madra ever lied? Obito only lied about his name cuz Madara's name had power! Obito did not lie about what happened to Itachi and the history of the Uchiha's though!

We don't know when he first started working on that jutsu and we have no idea if he even got so far as to even use human sacrifices so let's not even try that one.
I explained this above already

Now you know that is not true, Tobirama was the second strongest Senju, he and Hashirama were the strongest Senju, just like Madara and Izuna were the strongest Uchiha. Hiruzen could not defeat Tobirama and without strength of a hundred Tsunade has no chance either and you know it.
Back in the day before Tsuande came into the picture he was the 2nd strongest senju! But currently after seeing Tsunade in the war she is stronger than Tobirama! hiruzen could not defeat Tobirama cuz he was a edo! Tsunade could win without that she just needs kataysu and acid spam! Tsuande can dodge or punch away the water attacks

How can he hold himself responsible when he was dead by the time Danzo went bad?(his teachings should have stayed with him. just like his teachings stuck with hiruzen and he was good) He's not responsible for Danzo's personal choices, that's like if you had a son who became a serial killer, you could have raised him the best you could, to be kind and know killing was wrong, but if he decided to kill people that's on him.(not the way I see it! Parents are supposed to prevent that and raise their kids as good citizens! To protect them and teach therm right from wrong! If the kids kill it is a reflection on their parents. If a kid does not understand math it is a reflection on their teacher. If a kid/team is not good at soccer it is a reflection on the coach) Now of course emotionally you're going to think it's your fault, but in truth it is not, plain and simple.
I think the students are irreleveant so lets just take them out of the arugment please! If you do not blame them for the bad it is not fair to just blame them for the good

Yes, Hashirama gave the other villages weapons to use against his home which they did not hesitate to use. Yes let all give ever country a WMD, that will solve everything.
This was a sign of peace!! Not every country used their bijju for war. Hashirama did not have to give them a bijju but he wanted to as a sign of peace. If they kept the bijju the village would have been too strong and the other villages would have teamed up to destory the leaf. The leaf would be too popular and hated!

I say don't bring it up because as the Hokage, it's your job to protect the village, so they've all done it, there's nothing special about what Hashirama did in that department.
So it is the Hokage's job to improve the village like make the Academy or Chunnin exams so shall I not count that?? HECK NO!!! THat is a good feat for Tobirama and protecting the village from kumo is also a good feat. Protecting/improving your village is what a hokage does. We are trying to find the best hokage so we have to loook in those two areas.

You say Tobirama was killed by fodder ninja, well um news flash so was Hashirama so how weak does that make him? the fodder ninja sent after him weren't trained specifically to kill him and not single on of them were special unlike the silver and gold brothers who barely managed to kill Tobirama.
We do not know of Hashirama's death! ALl we know is that he died in the the 2nd war! Hashirama was old and we have no info on the fight. PLUS HASHIRAMA WAS NOT HOKAGE AT THE TIME SO IT IS IRRELEVANT

And I don't see what is so special about the Hashirama protecting a ninja scroll that Naruto and failure academy student was able to steal, if he was so great about protecting it, he would have placed jutsu trap or something.
Naruto stole it whie hiruzen was Hokage so hashirama did not have any say in it. Hiruzen should have protected it better! At least The scrolls were not as dangerous as ET and it did not leave the village!

Passing down the will of fire is not something you can just give Hashirama credit for alone it was started with the younger son and passed down to the Senju it was an ideal that he, his brother and his entire clan shared and passed on to the villagers.
Agreed they both had a part in it

All Hasirama did was protect to the village which isn't special because they all did it and he helped build the village with his wood style. It may be harsh to say so, but it is true that the village would be nothing without him.(I already listed what Hashirama did besides protect the village)
hashirama did not only protect the village! If it was not for hashirama their would be no village! It would have been destoryed or not even made! Hashirma was respected and admired! Only one person dared to fight him! hashirama made peace with the other nations and nobody wanted to fight anyone as a nation while he was hokage! Hashirama gave bijju to other nations as a sign of peace... and guess what their was peace at the time!! Also he passed down a way to make sure naruto did not lose control of his bijju!

Either way you look at it their were more issues/mistakes when Tobirama was Hokage
-their was not peace
-he started and did not destroy or finish ET
-Kumo did not respect him
-He did not make peace in anyway
-died as hokage, failed to protect his village and live
-did not trust the uchiha so he distance them

success of TObirama
-established Academy
-established Chunnin Exams

Not countering
-his students because he " cannot control their actions or how they end up"-according to you

DO you think Tobirama's successes out way his mistakes? how are Tobirama's small success bigger than hashirama's successes?

paradigm1977 · 10-09-2012, 10:51 PM

@princeofpeace. Can you handle my annoying attorney power up mode?

My comments in red below.

You told me "False," when I mentioned that it was Oro and Kabuto's strategy to fight "with them." in reference to why their particular strategy in using ETs, when I say Tobirama can have his own. You totally missed that "with" is correct when you are are referring to ETs as a tool to use. I am saying they are using ETs to fight. Like using a knife. ETs are ninjutsu, you fight with ninjutsu. I didn't say they fought with/beside. I was showing with/possession. That went over your head, when you should have really assumed the context was used in a way to match what happened.
Well at this point I doubt Tobirama actually used the jutsu! We do not know how he used it if at all! He probably tried it once and thought it was too powerful or hard to contain... maybe he thought it was immorall to use? Overall this is an EVIL jutsu used for EVIL puposses.

You told me tobirama did not pass down the will of fire to the sennin, Hiruzen did. Yes but you had created the initial context before me when you said Hashirama passed down the will of fire. As if he has influenced the generations of ninja, since you also claim Hashirama created it. So you are letting me say Hiruzen tained the senin, but did not pass the will of fire to them. But those were actually seperate points and maybe posts by you. So you created the lineage context not me. And that was your context because you want to claim the will of fire solely for hashirama, and say he passed it down. And you think Tobirama was a horiible teacher than claim hahasirama trained Tobirama, no proof, we don't even know the age seperation and you give hashirama credit for Hiruzen(Hiruzen did say that Hashirama was his sensi that is why oro brought Hashriama back from the dead to play with Hiruzen's emotions. Tobirmam taught more things to Hiruzen but Hashirama also helped train him. Unlike Hashirama he did not teach any bad kids like Tobirama did).

My counter is that Tobirama, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Minato, Tobirama, and Hiruzen all taught at least one powerful ninja that was evil and one powerful that was good, except oro. Undertsandably. But hashirama was not talented enough to create either a powerful evil or a powerful good GOOD ninja on his own of any note.

Overall this is a win for hashirama.. but no a complete victory
-Hashirama defeated Kurama and Madara while protecting the village
BUT
-Madara lived (barely) and escaped with hashriama's DNA

No barely lived, you believe everything Tobi tells you then you restate it as fact. Was this something he told Sasuke before mentioning how Konoha mind raped his older brother? Or was this when Itachi told Sasuke everyone "thought Madara died," and you figure, they thought it cuz it was a close call and Madara crawled away on his stomach like a loser, while his clone clutched his chest and toppled over in front of captain "no remarkable students of his own?" So who told Itachi this story? Bet I know.....Obito!

I did forget that chakra can be applied to feet so Tobirama could use a large water attack. However you saved me by contradicting yourself. with useful knowledge. If Oro isn't attacking/movng because he has to focus on the ETs when they attack.... so how can he move chakra to his feet to float on the water when Tobirama does that big attack we didn't get to see? ? So that means that this swings back to me as a legit reason why Tobiama shouldn't flood the area. And I know your counter is that there was still no feat.
Have no fear Hashirama is Here!! Hashirama can use wood style to make a dome to protect himself and Oro! Oro does not have to move and does not have to apply chakra to his feet

You mean that same Wood Dome Hashirama used to defend, in that fight with Tobirama by his side, but Tobirama teleported right behind the enemy and used Ultimate water bomb for instant eradication jutsuuuuuuu.................. with one hand....... and disintigrated the enemy, and accidentally, Hashirama's wood dome? Funny thing is, no one else remembers this battle and so no one else credits the feat for either of them.

You say I'm wrong and it Tobirama's students who caused the problem with the Uchiha, not the uchiha clan(it takes 2 to tango! The Uchiha's did have some fault but the elders should have trusted the uchiha). You say It was the Elders and Danzo worried about them. But they started the problem. I reread ch. 590 where Itachi explains everything to Sasake. All it covered was that there was gonna be a coup and that would weaken the village so Danzo and the advisors wanted the Uchiha dead(If Tobirama trusted the Uchiha and did not distance them from the village than the Uchiha would have no reason for a coup. The elders should have agreed with Hiruzen and talked it out).

The coup was way later. How do we know Hiruzen didn't exacerbate the issues with the Uchiha to make Tobiramas police force nice gesture into the yolk that weighed down the Uchiha?

Why should the leaders take Hiruzen's advice? Didn't you say Tobirama made Hiruzen weak and that is why he didn't kill Oro? But now that it is more convenient for your argument, Hiruzen should be trusted on this decision and the elders should put aside their opinion, Because the elders would not think these two circumstances are related in potential disaster and consequence for the city.

Danzo wanted Itachi to kill the Uchiha, so the village wouldn't have a civil war and be weakened. So this whole plan came after the intel of an uprising. And we already knew that there really was gonna be a coup. So you are wrong again. So what chapter supports what you are saying?
chp. 399 clearly shows that Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha's
as you brout up lets look at the first few pages of chp.590- it clearly shows that Hiruzen was against the Uchiha massacure! he wanted to talke with them and use words and let him think of a stragtey! he was the only one that was taught by Hashirama.. (and Tobirama) that wanted peace BUT the other elders (taught by Tobirama) wanted to fight and kill.

Because they also had Tobi's history lesson and knew that revenge was in the Uchiha blood. There's a difference between having arbitration with your employee and then working with him/her later, and saying" Hey you wanted to kill us, we found out, but we have talked about it, and I feel fine living with you next door. Because I BELIEVE this conversation has changed you heart. I have faith and know that I have NOTHING to fear from you.

I said Jiraya can't kill 20 elite ninja at once. You wrote, he was in the war, of course he killed 20 at once. That isn't even a logical assumption. At least when I argued for ET it was an argument of motiavation. You are argueing an unseen battle.
And the every fight of Tobirama has also been unseen. The point is Kurama is a bigger threat than 20kumo ninja. When Kurama was attacking the leaf it took on more than 20 ninja! The 3rd could not handle it alone it took the whole village!

Is this where we skip feats and say "there were ninja in the village," so..... there must have been over 20 elite ones, even though I don't know there names and faces right now. And Kurama just killed these unseen 20 elite ninja, not just our weak ninja. So Kurama is stronger.

I mentioned That it wasn't Hiruzen's fault that the hidden sound attacked. You write, it wasn't it was danzo's for working with Oro. But I was commenting on you first, listing the invasion of the sound as a fault for Hiruzen being Hokage( Oh well I meant Danzo my bad?) . And you messed up the context again, because you aren't following what you initially wrote, to understand how I'm commenting on it. Then I mention you cant blame Tobirama as a teacher for mistakes his students make(if you can not blame them for their mistakes than you can not take credit for their success! So the teaching feats for all hokages do not matter then).

So teaching good and evil, which an english teacher (in the USA) for 10 year olds can do, is more important than giving rep to a hokage who teaches ninjas to be powerful with ninjutsu? Right? That is what you mean by if Tobirama or Hiruzen cant take blame for Moral mistakes, they cant take credit for justu power developed? So Hashirama not having any students with poor personality or any kind of jutsu strength, is better than teaching a strong jutsu user who never followed the path of their teacher? Was Hashirama good at teaching anything? Proof?

That is drawing your criticism in Hiruzen making mistakes and not being the best hokage to your saying Tobirama's students sucked. You said both. So this should make sense in me stating don't blame Tobirama for the mistakes of his students. or their personalities/decision making mistakes.
Teachers should take credit for the good and the bad
also
Hiruzen did have some fault in the sound/sand invasion! He could have cancelled the exams and he should have killed Oro from the start

Maybe he wanted to talk it out like you said he should have done with the Uchiuh? But wait, your argument coin flipped the other way. Before it was talk, then fight. Now it's fight , then talk...or no talk.

Your turn.

PrinceofPeace · 10-09-2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

@princeofpeace.-green

My counter is that Tobirama, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Minato, Tobirama, and Hiruzen all taught at least oneninja that was evil and one that was good, except oro. Undertsandably. But hashirama was not talented enough to create either a powerful evil or GOOD ninja on his own of any note.

lol you said TObirama twice
Correct hashriama was not a sensi but he did HELP teach Hiruzen cuz he saw something special in him. At least Hashriama did not raise an evil student! While TObirama raised 3 corrupted ones. This is not a mistake by Hashirama just because he was not a sensi!

No barely lived, you believe everything Tobi tells you then state it as fact. Was this something he told Sasuke before mentioning how Konoha mind raped his older brother(before)
? Or was this when Itachi told Sasuke everyone "thought Madara died," and you figure, they thought it cuz it was a close call and Madara crawled away on his stomach like a loser, while his clone clutched his chest and toppled over in front of captain "no remarkable students of his own?" So who told Itachi this story? Bet I know.....Obito!
Everything Tobi said is ture (besides when he said he was Madara uchiha) Even itachi said that Everything that Tobi said was true. Just like in law everyone is innocent till proven guilty! What Tobi said is true until you prove Tobi was lying! Madara did not use a clone to fake his death he was forced to use izangmi (but i could be wrong)

You mean that same Wood Dome Hashirama used to defend, in that fight with Tobirama by his side, but Tobirama teleported right behind the enemy and used Ultimate water bomb for instant eradication jutsuuuuuuu.................. with one hand....... and disintigrated the enemy, and accidentally, Hashirama's wood dome? Funny thing is, no one else remembers this battle and so no one else credits the feat for either of them.
.... huh I did not understand anything? I might be tired tis all lol

All I am saying is that Hashirama can use wood style to raise himself and Oro above ground and Tobirama will make a wave to force Hiruzen into the wall

Or Hashirama makes a wood dome to form around him and Oro

or Hashirama maeks a walll in front of Oro yet in back of Tobirama and tobirama floodes the area

paradigm1977 · 10-10-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

All I am saying is that Hashirama can use wood style to raise himself and Oro above ground and Tobirama will make a wave to force Hiruzen into the wall

Or Hashirama makes a wood dome to form around him and Oro

or Hashirama maeks a walll in front of Oro yet in back of Tobirama and tobirama floodes the area

I was executing a cruel block move on you using the wood dome feat, since we never saw Hashirama use it. So Instead of denying you a feat that should be easy for Hashirama, since Yamato used it, I would take your side on the feat and stuff my own made-up Tobirama feat in next to yours and claim I saw both during the same fight. But since no one saw that fight, since I made it up, Hashirama doesnt get wood dome and Tobirama doesn't get my made up ultrapowerful water jutsu. I then went further and pretended Tobirama's no feat jutsu accidentally destroyed Hashirama's no feat jutsu because Tobirama is that much more powerfull than Hashirama. Just playing...

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-11-2012, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Either way you look at it their were more issues/mistakes when Tobirama was Hokage
-their was not peace
-he started and did not destroy or finish ET
-Kumo did not respect him
-He did not make peace in anyway
-died as hokage, failed to protect his village and live
-did not trust the uchiha so he distance them

success of TObirama
-established Academy
-established Chunnin Exams

Not countering
-his students because he " cannot control their actions or how they end up"-according to you

DO you think Tobirama's successes out way his mistakes? how are Tobirama's small success bigger than hashirama's successes?

OK before I answer you on what you've just said I need to add a few things I forgot last time.

First off, Kisame did use the shark skin against Guy, because if you remember he had absorbed chakra from shark skin before he faught him so my point still stands on that.

Secondly you say people are wishing Tobirama was never born because of ET, lets look as what Hashirama did. He gave the othwer villages WMD's to use against his village and started the first great ninja war. Because of his cell, they had to deal with an army of zetsu, Yamato got experimented on by Orochimaru, not to mention the people who came before him that dies in the experiments. They have to deal with an OP Madara and from what I am seeing and OP Obito.

Now I'll read your new post and tell you about those too

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-11-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Either way you look at it their were more issues/mistakes when Tobirama was Hokage
-their was not peace
-he started and did not destroy or finish ET
-Kumo did not respect him
-He did not make peace in anyway
-died as hokage, failed to protect his village and live
-did not trust the uchiha so he distance them

success of TObirama
-established Academy
-established Chunnin Exams

Not countering
-his students because he " cannot control their actions or how they end up"-according to you

DO you think Tobirama's successes out way his mistakes? how are Tobirama's small success bigger than hashirama's successes?

No freaking duh, he knew what it was, there was no other jutsu that could bring people back to life, that doesn't mean that he used a sacrifice. He was the one who deemed the jutsu forbidden, it's not like he's the first person to make a forbidden jutsu and have other people that are too smart for their own good take advantage of it.

Actually I can, because in the fight against Madara, he told Tsunade that Hashirama was a better medical ninja that her and that he was first person to be able to heal other people, along with the fact that could heal himself instantly. You keep bringing up ET. but once again, Medical ninjutsu started human experimentation and Dark medical ninjutsu so it might as well be as bad as ET.

Can you prove that Madara didn't lie? I mean how does he know what happened in the village when he was trapped underground the entire time?

Wong, even while Tsunade was around he was regarded as the second strongest Senju, Tsunade was only rcognized for two things and that was advancing medical ninjutsu and becoming one of the three legendary Sanin. Tobirama is faster Tsunade, not to mention that dodging water style is next to impossible. Hiruzen could not defeat Tobirama period, it had nothing to do with him being an edo.

The reason I say it is not your fault when your kids or your students go bad, is because it is their choice, am I saying that people don't blame themselves for it, but no it is not their fault. Good teaching doesn't mean squat sometimes, so are you telling me that with psychopath starts killing people, that's their parents fault? that with kid is dyslexic and can't read that if their teachers fault? You can't get through to everyone, you can only get through to some.

An yet that symbol of peace started a war, Tobirama may have made ET, but he didn't start a war.

The reason I say protecting the village isn't a special featg is because they've all done it. The only Hokages who I know that have actually done something to improve the village is Tobirama and Tsunade. Tusnade advanced the medical core and Tobirama did so much more for the village than just the Academy and the Chunin Exams. He made the leafs military, and the Anbu, all of which the leaf still need and use today, without these programs the leaf would have so sense of order.

Am I saying that protecting the village, wasn't great, no and I saying that Hashirama wasn't stronger than his brother no, but this isn't about who was the strongest, its about who was the best and Tobirama was the best.

Every Hokage died during their duty as Hokage, Hashirama dies before the first great ninja war, because he died before Tobirama who did die in the first great ninja war. Fodder ninja are ninja who aren't worht mentioning by name so since he died in battle and none of his killers were woth mentioning then he was killed by fodder ninja and it does count because we wanted to go by who was Hokage, Tobirama was even Hokage when he died, Hiruzen was.

So Hasirama's not responsible to his scroll being stolen while he was dead, but Tobirama is responsible for what people did with ET and Danzo while he's dead?

And what good did that do them, Naruto broke the necklace and he lost control before they even knew where the necklace was, not to mention that they only stopped him After he lost control so it didn't keep him from losing control of anything.

PrinceofPeace · 10-11-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

OK before I answer you on what you've just said I need to add a few things I forgot last time.

First off, Kisame did use the shark skin against Guy, because if you remember he had absorbed chakra from shark skin before he faught him so my point still stands on that.

Kisame was hiding without food or water inside of Samehada. He needed extra energy for battle. Kisame did not move (which for sharks that is impossible). Kisame stole some chakra from the both of them to revitalise him after being within Samehada for so long. So bassically Samehada was draining Kisame's energy while inside Samehada. Even 30% kisame (who barely used Sameahada) has shown better power than Tobirama!

Secondly you say people are wishing Tobirama was never born because of ET, lets look as what Hashirama did. He gave the othwer villages WMD's to use against his village and started the first great ninja war.

I would not go as far to say that they are wishing that Tobirama was never born but he is not the most famous person right now. They curse him but he did great things as well.

Have the bijju harmed other villags...No (besides Garra but the Sand was being maipulated by the sound/Oro)! I will admit when Hashirama did this I was like " WHAT ARE YOU DOING ?!?!?!!??!

" Lol but then I thought about it! Look at it this way and you will se Hashirama was REALLY AWESOME
Why Did Hashirama give the bijju to other villages?

For PEACE!!
- That is what Hashirama wanted to do! If Hashirama kept the bijju the leaf would be the most dangerous village! The other nations would team up and try and take down the Leaf village! As A sign of trust/peace he wanted to share the bijju power with other villages

Other villages would want their bijju!
- Villages have tried to steal bijju from other villages countless times ESPECIALLY KUMO!! The kumo bros tried to take down the fox and fodder kumo ninja attempted to steal Kushina because she had Kurama inside of her! If Hashirama kept all of the bijju's within his village than all of the villages would attack the leaf trying to get the bijju

TOO MUCH POWER
- Hashirama was not going to live forever so when he is gone... THEN WHAT! It would be a chanllenge keeping all of the bijju in line! The village would be full of jinjuriki! Also Not everyone would be able to contain the beast inside them! Constantly the bijju would break free of their host and wreck havic over the village!

Overall
-You gotta admit sharing the bijju was a GREAT idea. Keeping the bijju or sharing them both were risky but keeping all of them in one place was even more dangerous. This was a brililtant idea by Hashirama

because of his cell, they had to deal with an army of zetsu,
This is Hashirama's ONLY MISTAKE AS HOKAGE!! Unknowingly to Hashirama, Madara survived the battle with Hashirama and Hashirama's DNA was stolen as well. Madara used the DNA for the zetsu/gedo maze/Obito. His cells saved lives while ET killed lives.
Yamato got experimented on by Orochimaru, not to mention the people who came before him that dies in the experiments.
It is unknown how Oro got his hands on the 1st's DNA. Luckily Oro used it for good without him even knowing. Yamato saved Naruto and kept him in line. WIthout Yamato Naruto would have not been able to learn Rasen-SHuriken and defeat Kakazu! So mentioning Yamato is a pro for me and a con for you.

They have to deal with an OP Madara (THAT IS SO FALSE)
and from what I am seeing and OP Obito.
NO WAY ! The reason why they are dealing with OP Madara is because of TOBIRAMA's EDO TENSI!!! Who cares if he was Wood style he would still be dead! Now that he is brought back to life with Edo tensi he is a threat. With or without Wood style he would still cause trouble

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edo tensi vs Hashirama's genes being stolen

These are two issues that the hokages did not have much control over cuz they died.... but it is still their fault that it happened!
So which is wose?

IMO EDO TENSI IS HORRIBLE and here is why
-Edo tensi has done nothing but EVIL!!!!!!!!!

-Unlike Hashirama's genes it has saved lives and gave people great power/strenght. WIthout it Naruto would have gone on an endless Rampage in 4tails state. Naruto could have died and killed Yamato,Sakura, Sai and other innoncent people. yamato would not be who he is without Hashirama.

-Edo tensi has taken too many vital lives. It has done nothing but evil! It killed hundreds of ppl and plays with the dead. Idk what Tobirama was thinking! WHo does he think he is playing with the dead like that.

-Hashirama did not create his cells. They are apart of him so Hashriama did not consider his cells to be a forbbiden jutsu! His cells are not a mistake it is what makes Hashirama who he is !

Now I'll read your new post and tell you about those too

So and um yeah GO HASHIRAMA

btw Not done but you can go on and counter my post

Mangetsu Hozuki · 10-11-2012, 12:26 PM

PoP, you keep saying that ET is an evil Jutsu, hence Tobirama is evil because he created it. By that logic, the SoSP is evil, too, because his teachings gave way to ninjutsu in the first place! Also, Tobirama only made an imperfect ET. It was Oro who used the ET for evil, and Kabuto just copied him.

And you said that while Hashirama's cells save lives, ET detroys them. HELLO. ET brings people back to life. It is the caster who decides whether or not to use it for good/evil. And Hashirama's cells have done their fair share of killing, too - Madara, Zetsu, etc. But you say that this is his only mistake. That people went after he died and used his cells for evil, and it was beyond his control. Well, the same could be said for Tobirama. His only mistake was that people went after he died, and used his well-meant jutsu for despicable purposes.

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-11-2012, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

So and um yeah GO HASHIRAMA

btw Not done but you can go on and counter my post

Before I go on and counter what you just said, yes we are dealing with an OP Madara because of Hashirama's cells, because if it wasn't for his cells. He would not have been able to make 25 wood clones and give them all Susanoo, he would not have been able to use wood style at all, and cut Tusnade in half. Most of the reason that Madara is OP is because of Hashirama's Cells.

Yes, Yamato was a good thing, but what about all the people who died in the experiments before him?

ET was Kabuto's plan, they were planning on brining Madara back another way and then guess what, they still would have had to deal with an OP Madara.

Kisame used Shark Skins power to face, guy, it's as simple as that. Tobirama was considered to be the the most powerful water style ninja of his time and he did not need any extra chakra to do that.

First off what you are saying isn't true, if Hashirama hadn't given those village the Bijuu then there would have been no war, because even before they had the Bijuu, none of the other villages wanted to mess with the leaf because they had the Uchiha and the Senju. The other villages were too stubborn and would never work together back then.

All the wars have been over that tailed beast, if Hashirama would have just sealed them away, none of that would have happened in the first place.

Yes, the idea of peace if always a good idea, but giving people who don't like you powerful weapons is a terrible idea.

No Hashirama didn't create his cells, but he could have ordered for his body to be burned upon his death now couldn't he. You don't know what Tobirama was thinking when he made that Jutsu, he may not have intended to play with the dead, he may have been in dark place when his brother died and REALLY wanted him back. All I know is that Tobirama deemed it forbidden which means he knew the jutsu was morally wrong, what people do with it after his death, really isn't his fault. As it was said he never even finished the jutsu, Orochimaru and Kabuto did.

PrinceofPeace · 10-11-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotarubi Hyuuga

Before I go on and counter what you just said, yes we are dealing with an OP Madara because of Hashirama's cells, because if it wasn't for his cells. He would not have been able to make 25 wood clones and give them all Susanoo, he would not have been able to use wood style at all, and cut Tusnade in half. Most of the reason that Madara is OP is because of Hashirama's Cells.
Madara is not OP just beacuse he was wood style but becaues
-he has infinte chakra
-he can regeneaate
-experience
-EMS Sharigan
-Rinnegan
(wood style is just an added bonus)
WHO CARES if he has wood sytle it would not matter anyone if he was reanimated THANKS TO TOBIRAMA'S ET

Yes, Yamato was a good thing, but what about all the people who died in the experiments before him?
It was horrible and it was thanks to Oro that they died.... but it was worth it! I know that sounds terrible but here me out!
If it was not for Oro experimenting
-Yamato would not be who he is
-Naruto would have gone on a rampage and killed everyone in 4tails state
-naruto would not have learned RasenShuriken so kakazu would be alive
-Naruto would not be allowed to leave the village cuz their would be no way to tame him
-Yamato would not have been able to track the Kumo nin
-Bassically Everything yamato accomplished would have never happened

At least Hashirama's cells did some good.... what good has ET done?

ET was Kabuto's plan, they were planning on brining Madara back another way and then guess what, they still would have had to deal with an OP Madara.
EXACTLY I AGREE... you bassically are supporting me. Thanks to Tobirama's jutsu the kages would still have to fight edo Madara with or without Hashirama's cells

Kisame used Shark Skins power to face, guy, it's as simple as that. Tobirama was considered to be the the most powerful water style ninja of his time and he did not need any extra chakra to do that.
If TObirama was hiding in Samehada which was draining his energy than Tobirama would need a chakra replenish as well.

Forget it I am not disccusing this anymore. The point is Kisame would beat Tobirama! Who cares if he would have his sword or not cuz Tobirama would have his sword. I believe Tobirama would still lose but wheter he wins or losses does not mean he is the better hokage. If you want to debate this further lets do it in the Narutoverse

First off what you are saying isn't true, if Hashirama hadn't given those village the Bijuu then there would have been no war(Prove it), because even before they had the Bijuu, none of the other villages wanted to mess with the leaf because they had the Uchiha and the Senju(before the bijju the world was in even more chaos! Clan was fighting clan and their was blood everywher. Prove that the world would have been better without the bijju. If this was true or not the bijju would still be around and they had to be dealt withWhat I put in bold IS NOT TRUE! During the 2nd/3rd Shinobi war the Leaf village still had the Senju and the uchiha yet the world still fought with them. Their were wars against the leaf. . The other villages were too stubborn and would never work together back then.

I am going to have to disagree with you with the statement that i underlined. Have you not been paying attention in this war? Even after all of the drama the villages are working together against a common threat (AKASUKI) So if they could work toghether after all of the drama why would they not be able to work togheter before all of the drama and fight the leaf? They could at least steal a bijju !Prove that they would be too stubborn

All the wars have been over that tailed beast, if Hashirama would have just sealed them away(????), none of that would have happened in the first place.
(You make it sound sooo easy! Where and how would Hashirama seal them away?!?! He is not an expert on sealing and seals do not last forever!)

Yes, the idea of peace if always a good idea, but giving people who don't like you powerful weapons is a terrible idea.
As I already explained this is the ULTIMATE form of trust and peace.
Sharing is better than keeping all of the bijju to himself and here is why.

-Hashirama is not going to live forever so he can not constnatly control them
-Where would he keep them
-Other villages would be jealous and attack the leaf
-The bijju would break out and destroy the villages

No Hashirama didn't create his cells, but he could have ordered for his body to be burned upon his death now couldn't he
(Actually it is not that simple! We do not know the condition of hashirama's body! Maybe it is unobtainable for the leaf. Maybe Hashirama saved others and let his be a sacrfice and destroying it compeltely is impossible. We do not know a lot about his death so we do not know why his body was not destoyed. Honestly it would be almost impractical to predict the future an see that your genes would be stolen ! It would be VERY RARE for that thought to come up. Also it would be sad/rude to burn a corpse who led you and was your leader. Overall we do not know if Hashirama's body was able to be destoryed so that the genes would not be found)
. You don't know what Tobirama was thinking when he made that Jutsu, he may not have intended to play with the dead, he may have been in dark place when his brother died and REALLY wanted him back(this is no excuse! Rule #25 of being an ninja that you learn in school. DO NOT LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU! Tobirama has no right him to use a dead body as a sacrifice and call back someone from the dead like he is god! Tobirama is Hokage and should know better. Tobirama knew the cost of the jutsu because he created it. I am not saying Tobirama is a bad guy but he should know better and should have done something else to get over the death of his brother. We do not know what happened to make Tobirama create that jutsu so lets not assume. The point is Tobirama made the jutsu)
. All I know is that Tobirama deemed it forbidden which means he knew the jutsu was morally wrong, what people do with it after his death, really isn't his fault.
(So lets look at the stament in bold shall we?
-By this statement It means that Hashriama's cells going into evil hands is not his fault either. This also means that Tobirama's ET is not his fault either. But unforunately it IS! They created it and they were in charge of it. As you said hashirama could have been burned (which is very harsh and no body from that far in the past could have predicted his cells would be use for evil) Yet the point can also be made that Tobirama should have never even thought of using a jutsu with these cost and should have destoyed the jutsu compelety. They have to take responsibitlity for thier actions. It is not compeltely their fault but they have blame.
BUT
Here is the difference between ET and Cells

Bad
-Powered up and made the zetsu
-Powered up Madara (but that would not matter if he was brought back to life... due to ET.. great job TObirama)
-Saved Obito
-Had something to do with gedo maze

Good
-Saved Obito (at least it saved a life.. this is both, If He did not have wood style Kakashi would be dead)
-Made Yamato... um Yamato
-Saved Naruto( If yamato did not have Hashirama cells than 4tails Naruto would have went on a rampage)
-Let Naruto out of the village (thanks to Hashirama cells in Yamato. Naruto can go on missions safely with Yamato making sure he stays in line
-Helped Naruto learned RasenShuriekn (Yamato kept The Fox at by with the cells)

Overall Hashirama's cells have done more good than evil

ON THE OTHER HAND
ET-Bad
-Kills people everytime it is activated
-Plays with dead when they should stay dead
-Is the biggest issue in the war
-Immoral
-Can be released and is hard to control ppl

ET-good
...nuthing that makes up for the evil it caused
As it was said he never even finished the jutsu, Orochimaru and Kabuto did.
Well Tobirama still started it. If he did not than nothing bad would have happened. TObirama is not all to blame but partially.

@Manguetsu Hozuki (he is in this color)

PoP, you keep saying that ET is an evil Jutsu, hence Tobirama is evil because he created it.(just because he created an immoral jutsu does not mean he is immoral. If you steall candy that does not make you evil but the act you made was evil. If you read my post's above you would have know that I do not think TObirama is evil)

By that logic, the SoSP is evil, too, because his teachings gave way to ninjutsu in the first place
(this is COMPELETY ONE SIDED!! thanks to SOSP medical ninjuts is also invented and other ninja arts are made to help do good deeds and save lives. Not all ninjutsu neeed a sacrifice to be done. You are taken this way out of hand. Just because he creatd ninjutsu does not make him evil. He had good intenions for ninjutsu. Tobirama knew finally realized his intenions were not good which is why he made it forribeden.
! Also, Tobirama only made an imperfect ET. It was Oro who used the ET for evil, and Kabuto just copied him.
So... he still created it! If it was not for him their would be no zombies of ET. Other ppl perfected stealing but he created the concept of stealing

And you said that while Hashirama's cells save lives, ET detroys them. HELLO. ET brings people back to life.
You call that life? It is not truely a life! THEY ARE ZOMBIES and they can not die! Plus you need a dead sacrfice to use this jutsu so it costs a life everytime. This jutsu wrongfully plays with the dead like you are a god

It is the caster who decides whether or not to use it for good/evil.
Well this jutsu has never been used for good by a good guy so..... yes this jutsu is EVIL

And Hashirama's cells have done their fair share of killing, too - Madara, Zetsu, etc.
Hashirama's cells have done more GOOD than bad....can you say the Same thing for ET... NO YOU CAN NOT

But you say that this is his only mistake. That people went after he died and used his cells for evil, and it was beyond his control. Well, the same could be said for Tobirama. His only mistake was that people went after he died, and used his well-meant jutsu for despicable purposes.
Other mistakes/failures of TObirama besides ET
-Did not trust the Uchiha
-The Police Force was established to distance the Uchiah's from governmental affairs
-Their was not peace during his reign
-He was not feared/respected
-He died fighting 20kumo nin
-Sword of Thunder god was stolen

Hashirama made FAR less mistakes and had MORE achievements
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I just realaized Tobirama was a FAIL as a senju
why because...
-he had no super strenght
-no healing abilities
-no sealing abiliteis
-no wood style
-one nature transformation
-no genjutsu (anime is OFF-cannon)

ALtoughth so I do not look like a hater Tobirama had
-kenjutsu (like the senju)
-ST ninjutsu (unique as a Senju)
-sensory (unique as a Senju)

Hotarubi Hyuuga · 10-11-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

@Manguetsu Hozuki (he is in this color)

PoP, you keep saying that ET is an evil Jutsu, hence Tobirama is evil because he created it.(just because he created an immoral jutsu does not mean he is immoral. If you steall candy that does not make you evil but the act you made was evil. If you read my post's above you would have know that I do not think TObirama is evil)

By that logic, the SoSP is evil, too, because his teachings gave way to ninjutsu in the first place
(this is COMPELETY ONE SIDED!! thanks to SOSP medical ninjuts is also invented and other ninja arts are made to help do good deeds and save lives. Not all ninjutsu neeed a sacrifice to be done. You are taken this way out of hand. Just because he creatd ninjutsu does not make him evil. He had good intenions for ninjutsu. Tobirama knew finally realized his intenions were not good which is why he made it forribeden.
! Also, Tobirama only made an imperfect ET. It was Oro who used the ET for evil, and Kabuto just copied him.
So... he still created it! If it was not for him their would be no zombies of ET. Other ppl perfected stealing but he created the concept of stealing

And you said that while Hashirama's cells save lives, ET detroys them. HELLO. ET brings people back to life.
You call that life? It is not truely a life! THEY ARE ZOMBIES and they can not die! Plus you need a dead sacrfice to use this jutsu so it costs a life everytime. This jutsu wrongfully plays with the dead like you are a god

It is the caster who decides whether or not to use it for good/evil.
Well this jutsu has never been used for good by a good guy so..... yes this jutsu is EVIL

And Hashirama's cells have done their fair share of killing, too - Madara, Zetsu, etc.
Hashirama's cells have done more GOOD than bad....can you say the Same thing for ET... NO YOU CAN NOT

But you say that this is his only mistake. That people went after he died and used his cells for evil, and it was beyond his control. Well, the same could be said for Tobirama. His only mistake was that people went after he died, and used his well-meant jutsu for despicable purposes.
Other mistakes/failures of TObirama besides ET
-Did not trust the Uchiha
-The Police Force was established to distance the Uchiah's from governmental affairs
-Their was not peace during his reign
-He was not feared/respected
-He died fighting 20kumo nin
-Sword of Thunder god was stolen

Hashirama made FAR less mistakes and had MORE achievements
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I just realaized Tobirama was a FAIL as a senju
why because...
-he had no super strenght
-no healing abilities
-no sealing abiliteis
-no wood style
-one nature transformation
-no genjutsu (anime is OFF-cannon)

ALtoughth so I do not look like a hater Tobirama had
-kenjutsu (like the senju)
-ST ninjutsu (unique as a Senju)
-sensory (unique as a Senju)

OK first off let me clear something up here, I'm not saying he did miss his brother when he made ET, all I am saying is that since he never finished the jutsu and deemed it forbidden, that you don't know if he intended to play with the dead, he may have accidentally discovered that the jutsu could raise the dead and stopped right there. For all we know ET could have been an attempt at a reanimation jutsu like Chiyo's, but once he figured out that it didn't work that way then he might have stopped.

Basically the worst thing you've got on Tobirama is ET and I only bring up Hashirama's cells and the wrong he's done, because seem to think that choices made after someones death puts them at fault.

So if the person who made bleach at fault for it being a key ingredient of mustard gas? No they are not.

You keep saying that Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha, but he did, if he did not he would have left Kagami behind to be decoy while he got away, in fact he gave Kagami a shot at being Hokage, if Kagami would have offered himself up them Tobirama would have recognized him as being ready and the right choice to be Hokage. If he didn't trust the Uchiha Kagami wouldn't have been on him team to begin with.

It does matter if he has wood style becase even if he weren't brought back by ET, Obito was going to bring him back with the rinnegan he stole from Nagato and then we'd still be dealing him right now.

Yes I do think Hashirama could have sealed them all, because just look at it this way. The Uzumaki were still around and in great number and while they were around, any seal they made and put on someone or something stayed unless that person just so happened to be female and giving birth. So once again he could have sealed them away.

Burning someone body is no harsh or disrespectful, in come cultures it actually the highest form of honor to have your body burned upon death, in the old days, only people who were considered to be heroes got their bodies burned.

As for Tobirama's ET, you can't undo what you've already done and he may not have been the only one working on the jutsu so for all we know, he might have thought he destroyed all the notes, but someone else who was too smart for their good could have kept their notes and continued to work on it.

You say they still had the Uchiha and the Senju during the other wars, but none of those wars would have come up if Hashirama didn't give them all WMD's

Tobirama was not a fail Senju, I'm not sure who said this, but only Hashirama had wood style and healing abilities. The Senju could not seal, that was Uzumaki's.

Yes Tobirama was killed by 20 Kumo ninja, THAT WERE AND i YET AGAIN repeat that they were specifically trained to kill him. If he were not feared or respected then they wouldn't have build team just to kill him.

The Police force was not meant to distance them, everything that went wrong in that situation was because of the elders lack of faith in Tobirama's trust in the Uchiha.

There was no peace during his reign because his brother terrible idea started a war.

So, you're going to hold him responsible for sword that was stolen, after he was long dead? You can't hold people responsible for things that happened after they were dead. Yes, I bring up things that happened after Hashirama was dead, but only because you insist upon blaming the man for things that happened after he died.

How can prove that there wouldn't have been a war, back them, how can prove that the villages wouldn't have worked together.

Simple, none of the other villages even wanted to fight the leaf until WHEN? Until after Hashirama gave then their WMD's. didn't none of the other villages want none until they finally got weapon that would equal things out.

They wouldn't have worked together back then because, the generation now, is kinder and more for working towards peace, while back then everybody just wanted to fight and prove who was strongest. They were pretty much cold-hearted as you will notice when comparing the new generations to the older generations, I mean just look at how Cold Onoki was in the beginning and he's old as dirt. Look at the hard bone Danzo. There was no such thing at the hidden villages working together back then.

Yes, Yamato was good, but that doesn't make up for the lives lost.

In the end Tobirama did more for the village, he gave it structure and order and the power to be able to fight off other village if they decided to attack, which they did.

I think I might be forgetting something, but I'll read over it again in a minute.

10-08-2012, 09:44 AM	#81
Souret Special Jonin Candidate Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Little place called Wonderland Posts: 5,601 Rep Power: 14 Member's Picture Albums	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? I think the 3rd was the best because he was hokage for such a long time and he took part in so many wars/battles plus as has already been said he took on three really strong ninja even if two were just reserections. He saved everyone loads of times and he was like a father figure to the entire village, he was loved by almost all of them and he trained three of the most powerful ninja including a hokage candidate who trained the fourth who trained the ninja who was again a candidate for hokage, and then of course the current hokage. Plus I love his staff and he was Asuma's dad that just makes him awesome. __________________ Just Call Me Intellectual Hoe⚜ -JAFL ScrappY Approves! Life Lives, Life Dies, Life Laughs, Life Cries, Life Gives Up and Life Tries. But Life Looks Different Through Everyones Eyes. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Shoukry my Sexy S Sister Amazon my ganster Sister To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-08-2012, 03:36 PM	#82
PrinceofPeace Special Jonin Candidate Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Village Hidden in the SUMMIT Posts: 14,503 Rep Power: 8	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? [QUOTE=paradigm1977;6290053]so because Hashirama didn't know Madara got away and with a DNA sample, you give him a free pass...and say no mistakes. And that makes more sense than good wartime use of ET. If you read my whole statement before you respond you would know that I admited that UNKNOWINGLY having Madara escape with his DNA was his ONLY mistake! ET has cost more lives than Madara escaping! Also Hashirama did not do it on purpsoe and this is his ONLY misktae as Hokage while Tobirama made many more So it's ok to kill your enemy with ninjutsu and leave them on the battlefield. But it's not ok to kill them as part of a sacrifice for your Edo tensei ninjutsu to bring another enemy back to life to interrogate them? The cost you say I forgot is one enemy to bring back one of yours. Or two enemies to bring one of them back for interrogation. It has never been show to use ET to interrogate someone so you can not say this happened! We do not know the intentions of this jutsu! Interrogation would not work! They would feel no pain and they could release themselves or start to break out of the ET and decay. Genjutsu would be the only option but an ET and still break out of it. Killing is just wrong peroid! Also You are playing god! WHo are you to bring back the dead! ET has not been shown to be used in this way so this is not a good feat and a very unlikely successful plan. And using ET is not a wimp move, it's a boss move. Is Tobi's T/S ninjutsu fair (yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? how about minato's FTG(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? Rinnegan(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? Tsukoyomi(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job)? How about fighting against Kamui?(yes because he is not summoning someone to do his job) And you are comparing Kabuto lessoning the restrictions of his ET seal, to give the ETs there own personality, to a weakness on Tobirama's part. No that was Kabuto's strategy. You don't get that argument either. Oro didn't lose control of the 1st and 2nd (yeah but Oro was standing still when the ET's were active so Oro had to focus and stand still while the ET's attacked and The ET's stood still while Oro attacked). And you also didn't point out that the more/number of ETs controlled at once affects.... your ability to control them(another drawback of this jutsu). As kabuto told Tobi. That is how Sasori escaped, and Sai's brother. Kabuto's strategy and Oro's strategy was to fight with them(FALSE! Only Oro fought with them while Kabuto hid and made them do all the work). Just like it was kabutos strategy to lessen the restrictions. Yet you don't think Tobirama is allowed his own strategy of using them for intelligence or medic use (it has not been seen! We do not know how he used the jutsu and what his limits were ! We only know that they were less than Oro's and Kabuto's ability! This is corrupt jutsu! Bringin back the dead to do your work when other alive people should do it.If ET did something good it would have been mentioned)? How about this? Good guys are inherently more likely to use ET in a way that benefits their village. bad guys use ETs to benefit themselves. I say that strategy is allowed. How can you say that when a good guy has not use that jutsu in battle? Sarcasm won't help your cause. An attack like that is a once in a long while to a one time responsibility of a hokage. It's not a frequent thing. It is not Sarcasm....lol..... WHile Tobirama was in charge two major attacks happened (Gold n Silve bros) n (Kinku force) Tobirama was not cruel enough nor strong enough to use ET in the battle. I think you lost this part of the argument. He just didn't trust others to use ET, because it was dangerous and powerful. How did I lose when I countered all of your points?? You can not prove that ET was used for good! No good guy has used that jutsu! Also we do not know how , when , why, nor what happened when he used it! How is this a good feat for Tobirama as hokage?? Hashirama invented tons of ninjutus that helped build the village... how did ET help ? ET has done more KNOWN harm than good You ask why didn't Tobirama do this ninjutsu and that... I'll tell you. One is that when Kisami created that giant Orb of water, he was powered up with chakra from the 8 tails.(still a better feat than anything Tobirama has shown. It is not a requirment for Kisame to get that much chakra he just took the advantage of absorbing the chakra first. A 30% Kisame made a huge ocean so he can make the water globe) It wasn't all his own chakra. So he could create more water than usual. A second reason is because if Tobirama created the usual giant flood wave Kisami rode on, then what's his brother and Oro gonna float on(actually yes by applying chakra to their feet)? 3rd, the jutsues have powered up over the course of the series. Why can't he breath underwater forever? come on... he doesn't have gills like Kisami.(cuz Tobirama sucks lol jk) It has nothing to due with water technique. The "Great Shark Bullet technique," is great if it hits. It's not the widest attack out there.(it was pretty big and it is still a stronger jutsu than anything Tobirama has shown! It goes after the ninjutsu and is not easily dodged! The jutsu would eat anything Tobirama would throw at it and Tobirama would get hit... care to explain how it does not hit Tobirama) And using one handed seals is the mark of a genious, something never credited to Kisame anyway.(wow one feat.. big deal! Kisame has more chakra and better jutsu's! Who cares if Tobirama can do a jutsu in one hand seal! Tobirama has about 3 jutsu so it is not that impressive! How does this make Tobirama a good hokage? There is no way Kisame would lose) You don't see summons by Tobirama so you figure he has none? How much screentime has kisami gotten? Come on.. hope you don't think kisami can defeat Tobirama(we go by feats not by screentime! Looks like Tobirama was not important enough to have screen time so deal with it! Yes Kisame would beat Tobirama how would Tobirama beat 1,000 sharks or Giant Shark Misssile? Kisame broke out of Aoba's genjutsu so he can break out of Tobirama's! Kisame can abosrb any ninjutsu from Tobirama and Kisame has shown better strenght from breakin out of wood style so and up close fight would be the end for Tobirama). Tobirama can use genjutsu.(in the anime he could use genjutsu which is OFF-CANON so it does not count! Pluse Samehada can break him out of genjutsu or Kisame bites off his tounge! Kisame can sense his enemy with Samehada as well plus Kisame knows a lot about genjutsu from Itachi) where's Kisami's tech for that?(already explained) Where's Kisami's S/T ninjutsu? So no Kisami is not better overall. Any Konoha Kage could defeat him. WOW that is such a lie! You think Kisame would lose to the 3rd or the 5th?????? Wow make the thread in Narutoverse or I will and I will meet you there ... are you game? So you think Kurama is that much more powerful than a group of 20 elite ninja(yes actually! Kurama was destorying the whole leaf village until Minato got involved. ALso it took Kumo a lot of Kumo ninja to take control of their own BIjju)? Ok, why didn't Kurama kill the Gold and Silver brothers(Because Kurama thought they died because he swallowed them! What is your point here?? The bros lost the battle over alll) ? Why is it that 2 Akatsuki members at a time, sometimes one, can capture a jinchurikeAnd 2 akatsuki members can take out 20 kumo ninjas or the Bros! The Akatsuki members are S-rank ninja while the Kumo ninja were not)? Do you remember that the Bijuu are weaker when not channeled through a host? It's because they are wild and don't use strategy. It's established that they are weaker without a person to guide them.(yes but they are still powerful! The Leaf vilage would have been destroyed without Minato ) Kisame took on a jinchurike by himself, yet he would have been killed by Jiraiya if not for Itachi's Ame(What is your point). Can Jiraiya kill 20 elite ninja at the same time? No, he can't. And you have no proof ( Jiryria was fighting in the war so he did kill 20 ninja at once! That is like Saying Pain can not tkae on 20 ninja at once! So what if Jiryria canor cannot. You are getting way off topic cuz you did not mention Tobirama once so far. If you want to make a thread in the nartoverse go ahead. WIth Jiryria's Summonings all 3 boss toads he would stop them! Not to mention SOTU or SM) Hashirama defeated kurama and Madara. Not yet. One, he had help, and two Madara split with his DNA. If Madara thinks he could lose to hashirama, then how do you know he was going all out anyway? (what are you saying??? You have not even mentioned Tobirama) Since he split with DNA that might have been the main plan. He doesnt need to risk defeat if he thinks he can get more powerful later. Until it's proven Madara slinked away in defeat as a last ditch option, you don't get this either(even Madara said that Hashriama was the stronger one! If he was not than Madara would have won! Madara could not handle Hashriama 1v1 so Madara needed Kurama while Hashirama needed NO HELP!! Tobirama could not even beat Hashirama nor Madara nor Kurama! ). On top of that, Madara's attack was obviously to fight Hashirama, because hashirama was supposed to have to defend the city vs Madara and Kurama. Konoha being attacked was most likely the bait to draw out hashirama. So he didn't save the city. WOW... just WOW ..... You are just assuming you have no proof but I do! The point is Hashirama did protect the leaf from Harm and hashiram did not lose the battle! Madara did ! yes Madara got away but he ran away cuz he could not win! Madara said it himself that Hashirama was stronger and the villagers saw that it was true! That is why hashirama is hokage and that is why Madara never beat Hashirama! What chapter did it say Hashirama taught Tobirama? Honestly, Tobirama looks older. So I hope you didn't just pick Hahsirama because he was hokage first and figure, he must have taught Tobirama. And then use that as a point against me. Big bros teach lil bros! Honestly it is not that hard to believe! What bro did not teach their young ones?? Itachi taught Saskue! Who cares if Tobirama looks older that is your opinon! The point is Hashirama is older and stronger! Hashirama also taught Hiruzen! You are also wrong in saying that hashirama created the will of fire. He did not. That came down the line from his Senju ancesters. (Proof of that?? The point is that Hashirama started it and he was the one to bring it back and pass it down!)You claim there would be nothing to pass down if not for Hashirama? He and Tobirama got it from the clan. And Tobirama passed it to hiruzen to the sennin to naruto. Sure Hashirama trained Hiruzen too, but he was on Tobirama's team. So that is the tie breaker. Any Will of Fire claim for influencing generations goes to Tobirama. Tobirama would not have gotten the WILL of FIRE if it was not for hashirama passing it down first to Tobirama! Tobirama did not pass this down to the Sannin the 3rd hokage did! You are wrong in giving hashirama credit for essentially creating the village/"creating the picture" (when he wasn't hokage, the topic of this thread) and Tobirama "colored it". Awesome, Hashirama is a great carpenter with wood style. You give him "Hokage" props for that. Let's not, because that isn't a hokage role. I would have done the same thing. Any wood user would do that. Like Yamato did. You don't get that either. Agreed Now you want to blame Tobirama for Hiruzen's personality(I blame Tobirama for not being a good teacher and making Hiruzen to weak to confidently go after Oro!). Well should we blame Hashirama for having no students of his own of note (Hashirama taught Hiruzen and Tobirama). His only genetic connection is to Tsunade. But Hiruzens training couldn't overcome her genetic predisposition to gambling addiction and not wanting to be a medic Nin anymore and leaving Konoha(how is she involved with if Hashirama was a good kage? She was the grandaughter of Tobirama too so what is your point Hashriaram nor Tobirama taught her). The elders had to get things going to pressure Jiraiya, another lazy bum to bring her back. Using personalities of students wont really work well for either of us and isn't indicative of the talent of the teacher. Why blame Hiruzen for the invasion of the sound? (It was not Hiruzen's fault it was DANZO's fault! He was working with Oro at the time) He was old by then. and didn't work security. No hokage does. If you want to plave all of Hiruzen's faults on Tobirama, then I take away ALL your will of fire pass down that went through Hiruzen. Which means I get Naruto. He, jiraiya, kakashi, and Minato all came through him. Again I am lost by your logic I'll think more on the police force thing.(what is their to think about??) You would like to say that Tobirama was wrong for establishing that to restrain Uchiha influence(yeah cuz it is true! It was wrong .. how was it right). So even if(there is no if you can not prove that I am wrong) it was done negatively/that way, rather than a show of good faith, we should assume he was wrong to do so. And yet the 3rd wanted to work things out, but the Uchiha weren't gonna have it.(wrong again!! It was not the Uchiha's that caused the problem it was TOBIRAMA's STUDENTS!! (the elders and Danzo) they also did not trust the Uchiha's and they wanted Itachi to kill them all! See how wrong and corrupted Tobirama's students are!!! This shows that Tobirama was a bad teacher and that his students followed his unujust ways) I guess we also have to assume the Uchiha have to join the police force? That way it's a real negative. On this part, I have to brush up.(See thank you for finally agreeing! This was one of Tobirmama's mistakes/failures as Hokage! )[/QUOTE] The point is yet again Hashriama made less mistakes/failures as Hokage -Unknowingly/Unwillingly Madara escaped with his DNA (in his defense This was a very intense situation! They are both S-level foes and Madara used Izangmi to fake the death). Tobirama's failures -Did not trust the Uchiha and the uchiah started to rebel -Defeated by 20 Kumo ninja (we do not know their power level and we Tobirama did not even defeat all 20.... this is not as impressive as hashirama's battle) -Devloped Edo tensi ( there are no good SHOWN feats of ET doing good ! Overall the jutsu has done more harm than good) -Taught Danzo and elders (Elders are lazy and fight Tsuande and do not trust Naruto. Danzo is corrupted and selfish and did not like How Tobirama picked the Hokage plus Danzo worked with Oro) ------------------------------------------------------ @ People who think Hiruzen was the best Hokage ..... Honestly what did he do as Hokage? He did not help improve the village at all!!! All he did was -Lead the village during war -Regained titile as Hokage -Letting Saskue survive -"taking care or Naruto"-he did not do the best job of that But that does not compare to his mistakes -Not killing Oro when he had the chance -Standing by while the Uchiha Massacure happened (he should of stopped it) -Doing nothing during the Hyga incident -Did not improve the village's status -Defeated by Oro and Edo's -Not respected (people talked about the beast inside Naruto which was agianst the law) -Naruto (who was not even a genin) stole a secret Scroll Hiruzen was the longest reigning Hokage but he did not do much! He is all hype No matter how you slice it Hashirama is teh BEST hokage cuz he made less mistakes and had a lot of success Hashirama -protected the vilage from Madara and Kurama -Shared the bijju with other countries as a sign of peace -defeated kakazu -Raised his brother to take care of the villag and be hokage -Kept and passed down a scroll of pwerful ninjutsu BTW -You are assuming way too much and I doubt you are very knowledable on the subject because you did not know (and are still doubting) that Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha You asssume that ET was used for good but even if your scneiro was possible they would have thought of it yet they did not use it. Summonings someone from the dead would have been mentiond! THe good guys are just too good to use ET. Even if ET was good ... how does it prove that Tobirama was a great hokage?ET is just a jutsu! He did not use it to defeat or use it to help make the village better Most ppl thought the jutsu was a disgrace (like the kages from other regions) ! Tobirama was not highly respected. He was taken the the easiest out of all the hokages. The only thing he did was Orgainze the village and fight the kumo nin.... not very impresses! It is like how you said Hashirama was like a carpenter. I would have done the same thing as Tobirama and orginze the village with rules __________________ NaruHina FOREVER(unless Naruto dies with Saskue which I approve) Saskue: Pshh destroying the leaf. B!tch please that is soooo 4 chapters ago Life doesn't play fair... So neither do I Don't worry be Happy now To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by PrinceofPeace; 10-08-2012 at 07:52 PM.

10-08-2012, 10:36 PM	#83
paradigm1977 Chunin Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Posts: 1,139 Rep Power: 6	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? @princeofpeace. Requoting is now too much effort for each of our extremely long posts. But here is a few things I remember from the one you just posted. Kisame didn't create an ocean, it was a single wave that became a lake - at rest. You say Hashirama trained Tobirama, when that was never shown, Yet you also say that I cant say ET was used for good intent even though we didn't see that. You get training, I can't habve motivation for usage. You reference Itachi teaching Sasuke. Proof? Ninjutsu? I only remember Itachi pushing him away. You also claim that Hashirama taught Tobirama the Will of Fire. Really? It wasn't their father? Maybe a sensei senju to both of them? See you claim things that weren't shown than offer an easy alternative. Then you say I can't have an easy alternative, because we didn't see it. Where does Hashirama get the credit for inventing the will of fire? He didn't it started with the younger son wanting peace and love and it evolved down the line of his descendants. Do you have a chapter saying Hashirama invented it? I know I won't change your mind on the possibility of ET being used for good. Kurama didn't swallow the gold and silver bros. intentionally. They jumped into it's mouth on purpose. So that wasn't accurate. Your first quote is that I didn't read your full statement. I did read it all. You referenced the wrong post of your own. You didn't really counter me by saying ET is not a wimp move by saying, "he used other people." That's it's own power. Mind control in a story of mutants in X-men is not a wimp power. Its a power and very effective. It is what it is, the only wimp powers are those that aren't effective. I don't expect you to change your mind on this, so there's no point to argue that anymore. You told me "False," when I mentioned that it was Oro and Kabuto's strategy to fight "with them." in reference to why their particular strategy in using ETs, when I say Tobirama can have his own. You totally missed that "with" is correct when you are are referring to ETs as a tool to use. I am saying they are using ETs to fight. Like using a knife. ETs are ninjutsu, you fight with ninjutsu. I didn't say they fought with/beside. I was showing with/possession. That went over your head, when you should have really assumed the context was used in a way to match what happened. I do have to give you the point on Tobirama using Genjutsu and the anime not being cannon. And Kisame, if he wants to bite off his tongue, could break out of the genjutsu Tobirama may or might not have. You told me tobirama did not pass down the will of fire to the sennin, Hiruzen did. Yes but you had created the initial context before me when you said Hashirama passed down the will of fire. As if he has influenced the generations of ninja, since you also claim Hashirama created it. So you are letting me say Hiruzen tained the senin, but did not pass the will of fire to them. But those were actually seperate points and maybe posts by you. So you created the lineage context not me. And that was your context because you want to claim the will of fire solely for hashirama, and say he passed it down. And you think Tobirama was a horiible teacher than claim hahasirama trained Tobirama, no proof, we don't even know the age seperation and you give hashirama credit for Hiruzen. Hiruzen was Tobirama's prized student, hashirama was Iruka sensei. hahha. thats going to far. But really, the best hashirama did for teaching was share, to some extend hiruzen. That's it. There is no lineage of those trained by Hashirama himself, but it had to be hashirama that gave the Will of Fire to everyone. Where does the manga say that? Another of your points is that when I said Hashirama did not defeat Madara and Kurama, you first say, what about Tobirama, I didn't mention him, then say that madara even admitted Hashirama was stronger. You first You miss the fact that the initial context of this started with you saying Hashirama defended the city and defeated Madara and Kurama. And that was a feat for Hashirama and saying he's the best hokage. So the point I was making wasn't for me to push Tobirama, but to take away from you pushing Hashirams Hokage rep with this. The context is Madara's motivation in THAT FIGHT, was to gain DNA. But you warp this aspect of our debate into Hashirama is stronger so of course he won and Madara left. And madara should have killed him and taken the DNA. Saying hashirama is stronger than Madara is not the same thing as giving rep on defending the city as a hokage role when Madara attacked. And the point of view on this was Tobi's and he finished with "or so they thought..." meaning Madara did not die. I did forget that chakra can be applied to feet so Tobirama could use a large water attack. However you saved me by contradicting yourself. with useful knowledge. If Oro isn't attacking/movng because he has to focus on the ETs when they attack.... so how can he move chakra to his feet to float on the water when Tobirama does that big attack we didn't get to see? ? So that means that this swings back to me as a legit reason why Tobiama shouldn't flood the area. And I know your counter is that there was still no feat. You said the great shark bullet "goes after ninjutsu." I don't think that is correct, the great shark bullet goes in the direction you fire/aim it, just like a standard shark bullet. You say I'm wrong and it Tobirama's students who caused the problem with the Uchiha, not the uchiha clan. You say It was the Elders and Danzo worried about them. But they started the problem. I reread ch. 590 where Itachi explains everything to Sasake. All it covered was that there was gonna be a coup and that would weaken the village so Danzo and the advisors wanted the Uchiha dead. Danzo wanted Itachi to kill the Uchiha, so the village wouldn't have a civil war and be weakened. So this whole plan came after the intel of an uprising. And we already knew that there really was gonna be a coup. So you are wrong again. So what chapter supports what you are saying? I said Jiraya can't kill 20 elite ninja at once. You wrote, he was in the war, of course he killed 20 at once. That isn't even a logical assumption. At least when I argued for ET it was an argument of motiavation. You are argueing an unseen battle. I mentioned That it wasn't Hiruzen's fault that the hidden sound attacked. You write, it wasn't it was danzo's for working with Oro. But I was commenting on you first, listing the invasion of the sound as a fault for Hiruzen being Hokage. And you messed up the context again, because you aren't following what you initially wrote, to understand how I'm commenting on it. Then I mention you cant blame Tobirama as a teacher for mistakes his students make. That is drawing your criticism in Hiruzen making mistakes and not being the best hokage to your saying Tobirama's students sucked. You said both. So this should make sense in me stating don't blame Tobirama for the mistakes of his students. or their personalities/decision making mistakes. All in all we both had points that were correct and incorrect. I've had a hard time finding a mention of the the will of fire originating from the younger son and into the senju clan. But also if it started with Hashirama. But I pointed out where in the story you were also wrong, and how you have not followed my context in some areas because you weren't following it as it's own response to your prior statement. So, I say and offer a consssion that you might know more than me on Naruto, but I cant argue with someone and put out this kind of effort when you lose track of context and don't let me be subjective when you are. You just aren't following a lot of things. It's too much effort to take this further. we went too in depth on too many areas. The last two posts took forever. my concessions of defeat. Maybe I should change my mind on Tsunade powering up and beating Kisami with Taijutsu? I'll give that to you, and even Hiruzen. And since I don't know how fast Tobirama can use whatever S/T jutsu he has, we'll say he can't block great shark bullet. though frankly, it's not that big that you can't avoid it. It's not kakuzu wind and fire combo toasting kakashi, or Madara's flame or 1000 sharks...powerful IF it hits. Unless a more powerful water or earth jutsu blocks it. Or a rinnegan. __________________ Where are the Akatsuki Avatars? I want Kakuzu. Last edited by paradigm1977; 10-08-2012 at 10:52 PM.

10-09-2012, 02:54 PM	#85
Hotarubi Hyuuga Chunin Exam Proctor Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: In the Universe Posts: 1,754 Rep Power: 4 Member's Picture Albums	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? I say the second Hokage was the best, he created the police force in order to give the Uchiha clan purpose, he created the ninja academy in order for future generations of the leaf village shinobi to be taught. He created so many programs that are important and useful to the village today. He also IMO was the first in of a line of very important and great men and poerful shinobi. I mean just think about it he taught Hiruzen who taught Jiraya, who taught Minato, who Taught Kakashi who taught Naruto. He was also as considered to be one of the strongest ninja of his era and second right behind his brother Hashirama, he could create massive amounts of water out of thin air and preform poerful water ninjutsu without the need of a water source. Now he may not have been the most powerful, but IMO he was the best. @Prince In defense of the whole Tobirama being killed by 20 Kumo ninja, it was not that simple, it was 20 Kumo ninja specifically trained the Kill Tobirama so I personally can see how that would be hard. the whole village was just specifically trained the take down Kurama, even one person specifically trained to kill you is difficult to overcome so just think about if it were 20 shinobi specifically trained to kill you, to know you strengths and weaknesses. I mean only two of them survived so give the man some credit. __________________ O M F G !Those rocks look like Cinnamon Toast Crunch!! To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. PSN: ReckoningLord Through brightest day, through blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight, let all who worship evils might, beware my power, green lanterns light! Holding some special in my heart Last edited by Hotarubi Hyuuga; 10-09-2012 at 03:05 PM.

10-09-2012, 10:51 PM	#91
paradigm1977 Chunin Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Posts: 1,139 Rep Power: 6	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? @princeofpeace. Can you handle my annoying attorney power up mode? My comments in red below. You told me "False," when I mentioned that it was Oro and Kabuto's strategy to fight "with them." in reference to why their particular strategy in using ETs, when I say Tobirama can have his own. You totally missed that "with" is correct when you are are referring to ETs as a tool to use. I am saying they are using ETs to fight. Like using a knife. ETs are ninjutsu, you fight with ninjutsu. I didn't say they fought with/beside. I was showing with/possession. That went over your head, when you should have really assumed the context was used in a way to match what happened. Well at this point I doubt Tobirama actually used the jutsu! We do not know how he used it if at all! He probably tried it once and thought it was too powerful or hard to contain... maybe he thought it was immorall to use? Overall this is an EVIL jutsu used for EVIL puposses. You told me tobirama did not pass down the will of fire to the sennin, Hiruzen did. Yes but you had created the initial context before me when you said Hashirama passed down the will of fire. As if he has influenced the generations of ninja, since you also claim Hashirama created it. So you are letting me say Hiruzen tained the senin, but did not pass the will of fire to them. But those were actually seperate points and maybe posts by you. So you created the lineage context not me. And that was your context because you want to claim the will of fire solely for hashirama, and say he passed it down. And you think Tobirama was a horiible teacher than claim hahasirama trained Tobirama, no proof, we don't even know the age seperation and you give hashirama credit for Hiruzen(Hiruzen did say that Hashirama was his sensi that is why oro brought Hashriama back from the dead to play with Hiruzen's emotions. Tobirmam taught more things to Hiruzen but Hashirama also helped train him. Unlike Hashirama he did not teach any bad kids like Tobirama did). My counter is that Tobirama, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Minato, Tobirama, and Hiruzen all taught at least one powerful ninja that was evil and one powerful that was good, except oro. Undertsandably. But hashirama was not talented enough to create either a powerful evil or a powerful good GOOD ninja on his own of any note. Overall this is a win for hashirama.. but no a complete victory -Hashirama defeated Kurama and Madara while protecting the village BUT -Madara lived (barely) and escaped with hashriama's DNA No barely lived, you believe everything Tobi tells you then you restate it as fact. Was this something he told Sasuke before mentioning how Konoha mind raped his older brother? Or was this when Itachi told Sasuke everyone "thought Madara died," and you figure, they thought it cuz it was a close call and Madara crawled away on his stomach like a loser, while his clone clutched his chest and toppled over in front of captain "no remarkable students of his own?" So who told Itachi this story? Bet I know.....Obito! I did forget that chakra can be applied to feet so Tobirama could use a large water attack. However you saved me by contradicting yourself. with useful knowledge. If Oro isn't attacking/movng because he has to focus on the ETs when they attack.... so how can he move chakra to his feet to float on the water when Tobirama does that big attack we didn't get to see? ? So that means that this swings back to me as a legit reason why Tobiama shouldn't flood the area. And I know your counter is that there was still no feat. Have no fear Hashirama is Here!! Hashirama can use wood style to make a dome to protect himself and Oro! Oro does not have to move and does not have to apply chakra to his feet You mean that same Wood Dome Hashirama used to defend, in that fight with Tobirama by his side, but Tobirama teleported right behind the enemy and used Ultimate water bomb for instant eradication jutsuuuuuuu.................. with one hand....... and disintigrated the enemy, and accidentally, Hashirama's wood dome? Funny thing is, no one else remembers this battle and so no one else credits the feat for either of them. You say I'm wrong and it Tobirama's students who caused the problem with the Uchiha, not the uchiha clan(it takes 2 to tango! The Uchiha's did have some fault but the elders should have trusted the uchiha). You say It was the Elders and Danzo worried about them. But they started the problem. I reread ch. 590 where Itachi explains everything to Sasake. All it covered was that there was gonna be a coup and that would weaken the village so Danzo and the advisors wanted the Uchiha dead(If Tobirama trusted the Uchiha and did not distance them from the village than the Uchiha would have no reason for a coup. The elders should have agreed with Hiruzen and talked it out). The coup was way later. How do we know Hiruzen didn't exacerbate the issues with the Uchiha to make Tobiramas police force nice gesture into the yolk that weighed down the Uchiha? Why should the leaders take Hiruzen's advice? Didn't you say Tobirama made Hiruzen weak and that is why he didn't kill Oro? But now that it is more convenient for your argument, Hiruzen should be trusted on this decision and the elders should put aside their opinion, Because the elders would not think these two circumstances are related in potential disaster and consequence for the city. Danzo wanted Itachi to kill the Uchiha, so the village wouldn't have a civil war and be weakened. So this whole plan came after the intel of an uprising. And we already knew that there really was gonna be a coup. So you are wrong again. So what chapter supports what you are saying? chp. 399 clearly shows that Tobirama did not trust the Uchiha's as you brout up lets look at the first few pages of chp.590- it clearly shows that Hiruzen was against the Uchiha massacure! he wanted to talke with them and use words and let him think of a stragtey! he was the only one that was taught by Hashirama.. (and Tobirama) that wanted peace BUT the other elders (taught by Tobirama) wanted to fight and kill. Because they also had Tobi's history lesson and knew that revenge was in the Uchiha blood. There's a difference between having arbitration with your employee and then working with him/her later, and saying" Hey you wanted to kill us, we found out, but we have talked about it, and I feel fine living with you next door. Because I BELIEVE this conversation has changed you heart. I have faith and know that I have NOTHING to fear from you. I said Jiraya can't kill 20 elite ninja at once. You wrote, he was in the war, of course he killed 20 at once. That isn't even a logical assumption. At least when I argued for ET it was an argument of motiavation. You are argueing an unseen battle. And the every fight of Tobirama has also been unseen. The point is Kurama is a bigger threat than 20kumo ninja. When Kurama was attacking the leaf it took on more than 20 ninja! The 3rd could not handle it alone it took the whole village! Is this where we skip feats and say "there were ninja in the village," so..... there must have been over 20 elite ones, even though I don't know there names and faces right now. And Kurama just killed these unseen 20 elite ninja, not just our weak ninja. So Kurama is stronger. I mentioned That it wasn't Hiruzen's fault that the hidden sound attacked. You write, it wasn't it was danzo's for working with Oro. But I was commenting on you first, listing the invasion of the sound as a fault for Hiruzen being Hokage( Oh well I meant Danzo my bad?) . And you messed up the context again, because you aren't following what you initially wrote, to understand how I'm commenting on it. Then I mention you cant blame Tobirama as a teacher for mistakes his students make(if you can not blame them for their mistakes than you can not take credit for their success! So the teaching feats for all hokages do not matter then). So teaching good and evil, which an english teacher (in the USA) for 10 year olds can do, is more important than giving rep to a hokage who teaches ninjas to be powerful with ninjutsu? Right? That is what you mean by if Tobirama or Hiruzen cant take blame for Moral mistakes, they cant take credit for justu power developed? So Hashirama not having any students with poor personality or any kind of jutsu strength, is better than teaching a strong jutsu user who never followed the path of their teacher? Was Hashirama good at teaching anything? Proof? That is drawing your criticism in Hiruzen making mistakes and not being the best hokage to your saying Tobirama's students sucked. You said both. So this should make sense in me stating don't blame Tobirama for the mistakes of his students. or their personalities/decision making mistakes. Teachers should take credit for the good and the bad also Hiruzen did have some fault in the sound/sand invasion! He could have cancelled the exams and he should have killed Oro from the start Maybe he wanted to talk it out like you said he should have done with the Uchiuh? But wait, your argument coin flipped the other way. Before it was talk, then fight. Now it's fight , then talk...or no talk. Your turn. __________________ Where are the Akatsuki Avatars? I want Kakuzu. Last edited by paradigm1977; 10-09-2012 at 11:18 PM.

10-11-2012, 12:26 PM	#97
Mangetsu Hozuki Chunin Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The Netherworld. Or school, either one. Posts: 963 Rep Power: 3	Re: is the fourth the best hokage? PoP, you keep saying that ET is an evil Jutsu, hence Tobirama is evil because he created it. By that logic, the SoSP is evil, too, because his teachings gave way to ninjutsu in the first place! Also, Tobirama only made an imperfect ET. It was Oro who used the ET for evil, and Kabuto just copied him. And you said that while Hashirama's cells save lives, ET detroys them. HELLO. ET brings people *back* to life. It is the caster who decides whether or not to use it for good/evil. And Hashirama's cells have done their fair share of killing, too - Madara, Zetsu, etc. But you say that this is his only mistake. That people went after he died and used his cells for evil, and it was beyond his control. Well, the same could be said for Tobirama. His only mistake was that people went after he died, and used his well-meant jutsu for despicable purposes. __________________ Ranger of The Night's Watch For Castle Black! Village Hidden in Blood *Officially a cat-addict.* To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Spoiler: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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