Mei vs. Hiruzen

[Kuromaki]

What does Mei giving up have to do with this debate? That's not stamina, that's willpower. Hiruzen was noted to not have that much stamina, which is why he only made 2-3 clones. In the end, he couldn't fully seal Orochimaru because he lacked the stamina to do so. Mei was able to use a large yoton attack, Hidden Mist Jutsu, and at least 3 other large Suitons and also fought Madara's Susanoo clones off panel. This has nothing to do with willpower or the character's personality.

If Hiruzen increases the distance between them, he isn't helping himself.

Enma is durable, good thing Mei's acid and lava were both able to melt Susanoo.

Again, she has fire nature in both of her kekkei genkai. She's supposed to be good at it. She only never uses it because her lava and acid are hotter/more corrosive than regular fire jutsu, and she has never had the need to use fire jutsu on panel. Anyway, her water jutsu are still superior to Hiruzen's fire jutsu, and lava/acid take care of earth jutsu..

To defend against the clones Mei can just surround herself with water or use a Doton to protect herself (since she has earth nature too :P), and acid or lava could take care of them easily. Mei was able to melt off white zetsu from her body almost right away with acid and quickly melted Sasuke's susanoo.

Mei's hand seals are pretty fast since she was able to make hand seals and use a water jutsu in the time that Madara was able to use a giant Katon on Tsunade, and Enma isn't fast enough to blitz her anyway.

Edit: I really don't like how this forum sometimes deletes my entire post after I edit it...

[PrinceofPeace]

So how does Mei have more staminia??? She could not even protect Tsunade from Madara's fire attacks. Mei should have easily been able to counter but she failed. Hiruzen took out 2 edos and battled for a lone time WHILE HAVING A SWORD IN HIS BACK. Thats more impressive than any of Mei's staminia feats.... willpower and stamina go hand in hand

How is Hiruzen gaining distance a drawback for him?? He has more advantages than disadvantages

Lava would destroy enma right away but acid would not. Acid takes time and it painfully damages the opponent more than kill

We can not use that evidence. We have not seen her use any fire attacks. We have no proof of how strong her fire attacks are. Talking about her fire attacks is assuming so NOBODY can use it in debate

Mei will not be able to tell the real one. Again she has not shown any earth attacks so we can not use it in debate. It is assuming

Yet she was not fast enought to protect tsunade the last time. Just because she is good with hand signs does not mean her jutsu's are fast.

Gaining distance- avoids lava and acid
Enma and clones- hard to decide who is real and can attack from afar
Hiruzen has overall better stats

[Kuromaki]

She already protected Tsunade once. Madara used dragon fireballs when all of the Kage were exhausted, and note that no other kage rushed to Tsunade's defense, so Mei's not the only one to blame here.

Hiruzen didn't battle for a long time with a sword in his back. If I remember correctly, that happened when he already used the reaper seal, and Hiruzen's fight with the past kage was also very brief, only like 3 chapters long.

Ok, ok. But I can't see him powering through the acid with ease.

We have no proof exactly how strong they are, but they should be good as I said. Again, she doesn't need fire jutsu anyway when she has way superior lava and acid.

Fodder level ninja can use basic fire and earth attacks. Mei's a kage who was born with those natures. Anyway, that was just food for thought, not really a serious part of the debate :P

If Hiruzen or his clones attack from afar it will actually be easier for Mei to avoid him.

We don't know Mei's stats, so that's just assuming.

[PrinceofPeace]

Mei had to be encouraged to keep fighting. She only saved one person while Garra and Tsunade and Onoki saved all of them! Mei has been shown to be the weakest of the 5 kage. She was the only one to try to save Tsunade because she did the least in battle also she naturally had the best counter against his attack. She is not the only one to be blamed but she is not helping much either.

Bottom Line: Hiruzen withstood more pain for a long time. That is more stamina than Mei has shown. If she had it her way she would have given up by now. Hiruzen did better in that fight than Mei could have done.

It would not be a cake walk fighting through the acid but with the pain Hiruzen went though before he would withstand it to get a few hits in

Can we PLEASE not use earth/fire jutsu in this debate. I know she has them but we have not seen any ability of her using them individually. We do not know what the attacks are or how strong they are or what they do. Does are not facts so lets not use them. That is like for me saying that Hiruzen has other fire or earth attacks (Which he does but the OP is handicaping Hiruzen to let Mei have an advantage)

Same with Hiruzen. If ( actually) WHEN she attacks from afar not only will it be easier to dodge but she will reveal her location.

We have an idea of her stats I beileve she is only better in ninjutsu and hand signs

How is she better than Hiruzen in...
Stamina
Strength
Speed (equal at LEAST)
Genjutsu
Sensing
Experience
Taijutsu
Summonings
Sealings
Intelligence

[Kuromaki]

Again, that has nothing to do with stamina, rather your personal opinion of her.

I'm not handicapping Hiruzen at all, in fact, he's got home field advantage... I have no idea why you think restricting fillers is a handicap when fillers aren't even canon. They're almost fanfiction.

We already went through all of this, you havent really given manga chapters or how Hiruzen survives all of her jutsu.

[PrinceofPeace]

How was earth dragon filler?? It was not in the manga but stili!! Maybe the rooftop shuriken were "filler" but whatever it does not matter Hiruzen still wins

How does Hiruzen NOT have more staminia than Mei???

DISTANCE FOR THE WIN!!!!
Mei's boil style is not instant. Hiruzen can use clones to go in opposite directions and run out of the arena (or just to avoid boil) Thus Boil/Mist is useless

Lava is mid to short range attack and Hiruzen has distance!! In fact the starting distance is enough to dodge. Hiruzen dodged Wood style for a while and Even a tired saskue was able to dodge it

Enma in staff form and swing across the painful boiling mist and hit Mei!!
Hiruzen can also scan the area with multiple shuriken.

Not to mention the homefield advantage and all of the other advantages I listed.
Mei loses due to the distance.

Water dragon is the only way of Mei winning but it can not kill him! The water dragon also has to hit the right Hiruzen. If the attacks hits it would cause a lot of damage but even close to the amount that Hiruzen has already been though

Also he will not be holding back like he did with Orochimaru

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

How was earth dragon filler?? It was not in the manga

You just answered your own question son.

How does Hiruzen NOT have more staminia than Mei???

Prove that he does have more stamina with chapters and page numbers. I'll be waiting.

DISTANCE FOR THE WIN!!!!

Finally one thing we can agree on! Mei is a distance fighter after all!

Mei's boil style is not instant.

It spreads really quickly though.

Hiruzen can use clones to go in opposite directions and run out of the arena (or just to avoid boil) Thus Boil/Mist is useless

Again, that won't be doing anything because Mei has ranged jutsu that could easily take care of them at that distance.

Lava is mid to short range attack and Hiruzen has distance!! In fact the starting distance is enough to dodge. Hiruzen dodged Wood style for a while and Even a tired saskue was able to dodge it

I don't really remember Hiruzen dodging it for a while, maybe like once.

I;m gonna repeat myself here. Tired sasuke without susanoo to hamper him is still pretty fast. Tired sasuke who reacted to mifune who blitzed hanzo.

Enma in staff form and swing across the painful boiling mist and hit Mei!!

Because Mei can't move at all.

Hiruzen can also scan the area with multiple shuriken.

ok...

Not to mention the homefield advantage and all of the other advantages I listed.
Mei loses due to the distance.

That's actually the reason she wins.

Water dragon is the only way of Mei winning but it can not kill him! The water dragon also has to hit the right Hiruzen. If the attacks hits it would cause a lot of damage but even close to the amount that Hiruzen has already been though

What about lava and acid mist? Even if water dragon doesn't hit the right Hiruzen she can still keep attacking

Also he will not be holding back like he did with Orochimaru

Prove that he was holding back against Orochimaru, other than "He was his student"

[PrinceofPeace]

Hiruzen withstood more damage then Mei thus Hiruzen has more staminia

Mei is mostly a short to mid range fighter

Hiruzen can run away from boil even it does spread quickly it has to spread in many directions
Mifune and Hiruzen are both old so around the same speed. Hiruzen is not that slow
She can move but she would stay in boil/mist
Mei would waste a lot of a Chakra and enegy attacking and aiming against all of the clones
You answerd you own question. Hiruzen held back cuz he did not want to hurt his student

[BMC1994]

Hiruzen wins why:

Hiruzen runs to the other side of konoha summon enma and trolls with his extandable staff boil release will never even hit him while the pummeling poor mei with teh large monkey (inner lolz) while barraging her with long range jutsu.

Or mei hits with boil release hiruzen gets desperate makes 2 shadow clones summons death god. Seals her soul 3 times and trololololol tie. He was old anyways.

Or final option mei never gets to use anything as hiruzen clobbers her to death from up close with combined attacks of enma and himself.

also consering he has a 5 in nin , tai and genjutsu in the databook i think it would be hard for mei to outclass him.

also acid CAN be blocked with his cage you know why because hiruzen can manipulate the lenght and width of his staff at will.

[PrinceofPeace]

^ agrred

Hiruzen is overall better than Mei

Mei has hand signs and ninjutsu and thats it

[Cult of Personality]

Originally Posted by BMC1994

Hiruzen wins why:

A good question. Answer: he doesn't.

Hiruzen runs to the other side of konoha

And therefore loses thanks to ringout.

Or mei hits with boil release hiruzen gets desperate makes 2 shadow clones summons death god. Seals her soul 3 times and trololololol tie. He was old anyways.

If he uses Dead Demon Consuming Seal they both die. Or Mei just kills him while he's standing there like an idiot.

Or final option mei never gets to use anything as hiruzen clobbers her to death from up close with combined attacks of enma and himself.

Except for the part where his head gets lavaed off before that happens.

also consering he has a 5 in nin , tai and genjutsu in the databook i think it would be hard for mei to outclass him.

Databook is garbage. We don't use it here.

also acid CAN be blocked with his cage you know why because hiruzen can manipulate the lenght and width of his staff at will.

Great, so he seals himself in airtight and suffocates to death. This is in the unlikely event that Mei's acid can't eat through Enma.

All in all, piss off.

[PrinceofPeace]

There is no ringout in the OP
Mei would not be able to move when she is caught in the sealing jutsu
Not with the distance Hiruzen gains
Databooks is part trash part true

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Hiruzen withstood more damage then Mei thus Hiruzen has more staminia

Mei is mostly a short to mid range fighter

Hiruzen can run away from boil even it does spread quickly it has to spread in many directions
Mifune and Hiruzen are both old so around the same speed. Hiruzen is not that slow
She can move but she would stay in boil/mist
Mei would waste a lot of a Chakra and enegy attacking and aiming against all of the clones
You answerd you own question. Hiruzen held back cuz he did not want to hurt his student

He survived getting slashed a couple times by one of the former Hokage and then used reaper seal on them both. Then he went on to have a brief skirmish with Orochimaru and caught Orochimaru in reaper seal, when Orochimaru stabbed him.

I just proved that she can go long range with chapter 577.

Hiruzen can't run away forever. Retreating from the acid mist would actually give it time to spread.

Good thing Hiruzen can only make a few clones.

I'm afraid that's not enough proof. If hiruzen was forced to bring out Reaper Seal, a suicide technique, then he definitely wasn't holding back.

[PrinceofPeace]

Acid spreading would take more chakra and she only has one long ranged jutsu

Hiruzen has stamina so he can run away long enough to gain good distance. A few clones is more than her

HE was not holding back the whole time but at the beginning he was

[Kuromaki]

Either way, if he retreats, at some point he and his 2-3 clones will be caught in the acid and then it's game over for Hiruzen. Can't do anything if Mei decides to spam lava around her unless he tries to attack her before she can do so.


Doesn't really make a difference that he was holding back at the beginning because they were just exchanging ninjutsu (Hiruzen using fire dragon, Tobirama using water dragon and Hiruzen using earth wall)

[PrinceofPeace]

The acid can not cover the WHOLE VILLAGE using her mid- short and one long ranged attacks would quickly waste chakra

true and....

[Kuromaki]

She doesn't have to since Hiruzen cannot stay away from the acid forever. He has no means to hurt her at long distance and would simply waste his chakra trying to do so, while at the same time running away from the acid mist which would eventually reach him and kill him.

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by Cult of Personality

A good question. Answer: he doesn't.

And therefore loses thanks to ringout.

The battlefield is konoha they onty START AT at the rooftop read the thread again. Hiruzen staff extends easily halfway though konoha as seen in his fight with the kyuubi. And nothing is stated about ring outs.

If he uses Dead Demon Consuming Seal they both die. Or Mei just kills him while he's standing there like an idiot.

Oro was barely able to kill him and that because hiruzen still saw him as his student. In meis case he wont be that nice because doesnt know her.If The death god comes out they both die. And why would he stand there like an idiot he may be old but hes still kage lvl.

I already said that would be a tie. Read better.

Except for the part where his head gets lavaed off before that happens.

Please tell me in which chapter/panel she suddenly became queen of speed/weaving handseals.
Mei has never shown to be that fast the only thing she succesfully hit was a exhausted beat up enraged and nearly blind sasuke.
Besides speed as i said earlyer hiruzen also has the range advantage because of his extandble staff. And Number Advantage if he gets shadow clones off. Yes meis acid can protect but again hiruzen has a range advantage with his staff. The clones could simply distract her with fire jutsu.

Databook is garbage. We don't use it here.

Still being able to battle 3 kage lvl ninja close up and not getting stomped is impressive and a testament to his taijustu skills.

We have seen his ninjutsu which is also quite powerfull.

Genjutsu wise he has atleaast shown to be able to defend himself against an advanced genjutsu by a kage lvl ninja.

There 3 examples that dont make use of the databooks.

Great, so he seals himself in airtight and suffocates to death. This is in the unlikely event that Mei's acid can't eat through Enma.

It cant enma is made out of diamond.
Hiruzen can also dodge remember it an open area.
Hiruzen can also just seal the front of the cage and escape.
Anyway hiruzens cage > mei water justu and acid. not that he has to use it as could just dodge its an open area.

All in all, piss off.

Thats isnt nice.

[Cult of Personality]

The battlefield is konoha they onty START AT at the rooftop read the thread again.

The battlefield is the roof Hiruzen fought Orochimaru on.

And nothing is stated about ring outs.

Contestants MAY NOT leave the battleground unless they are forcibly removed. If a contestant is removed from the battlefield it is considered a ring out and an automatic disqualification for that character.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88740

Oro was barely able to kill him

Orochimaru was holding back and didn't have the ability to puke lava at high speeds.

If The death god comes out they both die.

Supposing he lives that long.

And why would he stand there like an idiot he may be old but hes still kage lvl.

'
Can't move and use the DDCS at the same time, else Hiruzen would have actually, you know, tried to avoid being stabbed in the chest.

I already said that would be a tie. Read better.

Totally ignoring the complete lack of any word that could be interpreted as "tie" and your claim that Hiruzen would win.

Please tell me in which chapter/panel she suddenly became queen of speed/weaving handseals.

Please tell me in which chapter Hiruzen became faster than Sasuke.

Mei has never shown to be that fast the only thing she succesfully hit was a exhausted beat up enraged and nearly blind sasuke.

Dunno where you're getting this, but Sasuke was not enraged, and his visual acuity has nothing to do with his speed. And an exhausted Sasuke >>>>>> Hiruzen all day every day.

Besides speed as i said earlyer hiruzen also has the range advantage because of his extandble staff.

Not really since they're on that roof and Meis got a pretty good range.

And Number Advantage if he gets shadow clones off.

Shadow Clones can be destroyed by a stiff breeze. They are even more useless than you are.

Still being able to battle 3 kage lvl ninja close up and not getting stomped is impressive and a testament to his taijustu skills.

Not really since Orochimaru was holding back so he could cause Hiruzen pain instead of just instantly killing him then and there.

We have seen his ninjutsu which is also quite powerfull.

If by quite powerful you mean useless against someone of Meis level then yes.

Genjutsu wise he has atleaast shown to be able to defend himself against an advanced genjutsu by a kage lvl ninja.

And this matters because? Mei doesn't have any genjutsu...

There 3 examples that dont make use of the databooks.

Great, so he seals himself in airtight and suffocates to death. This is in the unlikely event that Mei's acid can't eat through Enma.

It cant enma is made out of diamond.

Got any proof?

Hiruzen can also dodge remember it an open area.

How do you dodge a cloud? Oh right, you don't.

Hiruzen can also just seal the front of the cage and escape.

And gets killed by the acid cloud.

Anyway hiruzens cage > mei water justu and acid.

Prove it.

not that he has to use it as could just dodge its an open area.

Not that open, and filled with a cloud of acid regardless.

Thats isnt nice.

Nice is relative. This is me being nice. I could be a lot meaner.

[BMC1994]

Originally Posted by Cult of Personality

The battlefield is the roof Hiruzen fought Orochimaru on.
Contestants MAY NOT leave the battleground unless they are forcibly removed. If a contestant is removed from the battlefield it is considered a ring out and an automatic disqualification for that character.

If thats the case hiruzen can just summon enma and push her "out of the ring'' making it an auto lose for her.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88740
Orochimaru was holding back and didn't have the ability to puke lava at high speeds.

The lava wasnt that fast. Prove that it was fast.

You call summoning 2 hokages and using the sword of kusanagi holding back?


Supposing he lives that long.

Supposed mei lives that long hiruzen isnt just some punching bag who does nothing and lets his opponents use their strongest jutsu.

Can't move and use the DDCS at the same time, else Hiruzen would have actually, you know, tried to avoid being stabbed in the chest.
Totally ignoring the complete lack of any word that could be interpreted as "tie" and your claim that Hiruzen would win.

I used the exact word 'tie' in the sentence you quoted
Please tell me in which chapter Hiruzen became faster than Sasuke.

Prove that sasuke is faster. Seriously you consider him faster then a kage get over yourself. He became faster in the damn chapter he was introduced as the hokage. He became faster in the chapter in which he battled the kyuubi . He became faster when he kept up with the first and second hokage in their prime while he was supposed to be retired. He Became faster when he actually caught orochimaru(who is able to go toe to toe with 4tails) with the DDCS.

Please in tell me in which chapter sasuke got faster then hiruzen. and thus faster then orochimaru, the first hokage and the second hokage. And faster then 4tails.

Dunno where you're getting this, but Sasuke was not enraged, and his visual acuity has nothing to do with his speed. And an exhausted Sasuke >>>>>> Hiruzen all day every day.

Sasuke got pwned fighting 1 kage.
Hiruzen fought 3 kage lvl ninja of which 2 immortal of which the defeated all 2 and badly injured the third leaving him unable to jutsu for the remainder of naruto.

Hiruzen>>>>>>>>> Sasuke



Not really since they're on that roof and Meis got a pretty good range.
Shadow Clones can be destroyed by a stiff breeze. They are even more useless than you are.

Even without summoning he can just shadow shuriken her before she spits anything at him.
Enma can extend hiruzen has the range advantage.
Shadow Clones can last multiple hits i think naruto has shown it somewhere.
And you could really stop with the personal insults.

Not really since Orochimaru was holding back so he could cause Hiruzen pain instead of just instantly killing him then and there.
If by quite powerful you mean useless against someone of Meis level then yes.

Holding back ? he almost got sealed.

How are they useless mei again hasnt shown any exceptional speed and durability . Prove that mei is somehow immune to all jutsu -.-.


Great, so he seals himself in airtight and suffocates to death. This is in the unlikely event that Mei's acid can't eat through Enma.

Again he could just make a wall.

Got any proof?

ok not diamand ,adamantite or tine which appearently is as hard a diamond.
there is your prove.

How do you dodge a cloud? Oh right, you don't.
It isnt a cloud it more like a mist.
And gets killed by the acid cloud.

Still can block with a wall/shield of enma.

Prove it.
Hard.As.Diamond. How would water jutsu damage enma.

Not that open, and filled with a cloud of acid regardless.
They are not starting in an acid cloud.
So he is just going stand stand by and do nothing while she weaves seals for her acid?

And he can move and use DDSC how else would he catch his victims?