Spoiler The Sharingan not an evolution of the Rinnegan?

[SilentBlade]

This may be an odd question to ask, considering what we saw with Madara, but potentially speaking, might the Sharingan be the result of the Rinnegan being sealed with something similar to the cursed seal of heaven?

First portion of this thought process:
We see Madara with the Rinnegan, but we also see him revived with a portion of Hashirama Senju grafted to his shoulder, which means that the Sharingan alone won't awaken it. With the DNA properly in place and with the amount one could argue that he was able to awaken it based on the state in which he was revived, not prior to receiving the senju DNA. When he is revived it is revealed that he is said to have been revived in his prime, or a more perfect form than perhaps when he died. But it does stand to reason that he was not simply able to awaken the Rinnegan through simple will alone, he needed the DNA from the Senju to be a part of him. But why is that DNA so important? I would state that its not the DNA that's important but more the power to unseal the Rinnegan and make full use of it.

Second portion of the thought process:
We know the similarities of the cursed mark of heaven and the sharingan in appearance, but lets not forget there are similarities in actuality. First of all we know the sharingan uses a tremendous amount of chakra, the mark on the body increases the amount of chakra to the user (almost a reverse effect).

In the second stage of the Cursed seal of heaven, we see black flames and even further a transformation into something with comparable power to the Naruto with atleast 1 tail out (this based on when they were kids of course). One could make the comparison from the second stage sharingan, the black flames (Amaterasu) and the beastly transformation (projection of Susan'o which looked equally dark as Sasuke did when he was transformed).

Third part of the though process:
We know that the Uchiha have been referred to as the "cursed clan" and more than likely for a reason other than the processes of attaining power (we know that all high powered jutsu come at a high cost, the the MS/EMS should be no different), one could argue that it is a result of that first battle between the elder and younger sons of Rikudo Sennin. This may be an assumption on my part, but during their initial battle, I would state that the younger son won (if the elder son won, he'd have likely killed off the younger). With that stated, I would then go so far as to state that the younger son could not bring himself to kill his older brother, so instead he sealed off most of the power of the Rinnegan with that mark, still leaving him with substantial power, but nothing as powerful as it once was. If you observe the Tomoe of the Sharingan vs. the Cursed seal of heave, they are opposites, the cursed seal of heaven infuses power, where one could argue the sharingan limits power. Thats not to say it wouldn't be substantial, but by comparison it probably is much less substantial.

The idea here is that the DNA itself isn't enough, and perhaps even the scroll contained information about how to unseal the Rinnegan (considering Orochimaru's experiments with the cursed seal markings).

The only thing I have a hard time sorting out is Nagato. One could argue that it works in a single direction of someone with a Sharingan achieving a Rinnegan through undoing the cursed seal, but in the other direction it doesn't hold up so well. That said, the only potentially possible thing is that the Uzumaki are primed to awaken the Rinnegan in a similar way that the MS is apparently awakened. We could argue that Nagato experienced something of truly horrifying personal trauma, and we have yet to see Naruto personally experience something like that. However that's all speculation and could be wrong..just a thought though as I consider whats in the scroll and its relationship to Orochimaru.

[Larry01239]

Who ever said Sharingan was an evolution in the first place?

[SilentBlade]

It's been implied a lot of place. The idea of succession went:

Sharingan->MS->EMS->Rinnegan in some sense of the order. The idea that has been tossed around on here has been that its simply a combination of the DNA between Senju and Uchiha to awaken the Rinnegan, however I would argue that its not so simple, and there is more to this idea. The issue I still have is how Nagato ended up with it.

[Larry01239]

The sharingan came from rinnegan, but not an evolution. more a regression

[Sasuke726]

Well thought out theory. Not saying you are riight or wrong, but you propose a very stimulating idea. Good job with your effort.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Larry01239

The sharingan came from rinnegan, but not an evolution. more a regression

maybe mutation would be a better word? I am not sure how to put it, but the general idea is that they are derivative from each other in some way. The way is the mystery and Nagato adds to that even more.

@Sasuke Thank you very much :-)

[Larry01239]

Nagato's rinnegan is actually a mutation of the original

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Larry01239

Nagato's rinnegan is actually a mutation of the original

Right, but if we say that the Uzumaki are more closely related to the Senju then it would hold up that they have the incredible about of life force. That said, perhaps that same distant relationship with the senju is the same distance to the Uchiha? perhaps that was why the Uzumaki and not another Senju was chosen to be the jinchuriki, since it was closer to a neutral selection.

Like i said, all speculation :-)

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

Right, but if we say that the Uzumaki are more closely related to the Senju then it would hold up that they have the incredible about of life force. That said, perhaps that same distant relationship with the senju is the same distance to the Uchiha? perhaps that was why the Uzumaki and not another Senju was chosen to be the jinchuriki, since it was closer to a neutral selection.

Like i said, all speculation :-)

True on the Uzumaki. To take it a step further. While both the Senju and Uchiha are descended from each son, other bloodlines must have been as well. The senju have more fame than the Uzumaki, so there history is better remembered, but the uzumaki might have a more pure bloodline descent from the brothers...maybe than either the Senju or Uchiha.

theory, if the uzumaki are so famed for seals, I wonder if it is purely due to knowledge, or viatlity too, or vitality as a big indicator. If it's the last one, than Uzumaki may be more likely to have a type of chakra that would be good with time/space, since seals are related. And since Tobiramna, a distant relative used it. And for Naruto, his dad.

[Neaohi]

No. Even said by everyone it is.

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

First portion of this thought process:
We see Madara with the Rinnegan, but we also see him revived with a portion of Hashirama Senju grafted to his shoulder, which means that the Sharingan alone won't awaken it. With the DNA properly in place and with the amount one could argue that he was able to awaken it based on the state in which he was revived, not prior to receiving the senju DNA. When he is revived it is revealed that he is said to have been revived in his prime, or a more perfect form than perhaps when he died. But it does stand to reason that he was not simply able to awaken the Rinnegan through simple will alone, he needed the DNA from the Senju to be a part of him. But why is that DNA so important? I would state that its not the DNA that's important but more the power to unseal the Rinnegan and make full use of it.

Madara awakened it before he died. According to him. So he has already used the Senju DNA. He does not directly state, to my memory, that he needed that for the rinnegan. It is stated by Tobi that you need senju and Uchiha DNA for Izanagi.

Kabuto's better science further mixed in senju DNA to push Madara's body/ability even further.

It is possible that Uzumaki DNA can also stand in for Senju DNA. It might also be that Uzumaki's can develop a rinnegan easier than any other clan. Unless Nagato's eyes are Madara's, It took Madara most of his life to find/unlock whatever, the rinnegan, when Nagato got them as a boy. And if you do need senju and dna for rinnegan, and the eyes are Nagato's, than that means not only can Uzumaki stand in for both bloodlines put together, but that Uzumaki's can use Izanagi.

And Naruto is even more like the Sage.

More food for thought.

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

The only thing I have a hard time sorting out is Nagato. One could argue that it works in a single direction of someone with a Sharingan achieving a Rinnegan through undoing the cursed seal, but in the other direction it doesn't hold up so well. That said, the only potentially possible thing is that the Uzumaki are primed to awaken the Rinnegan in a similar way that the MS is apparently awakened. We could argue that Nagato experienced something of truly horrifying personal trauma, and we have yet to see Naruto personally experience something like that. However that's all speculation and could be wrong..just a thought though as I consider whats in the scroll and its relationship to Orochimaru.

Maybe the scroll says Uzumaki are the true bosses, and now Sasuke wants Oro's help to get more powerful!!!

That would be a kishi surprise. bit of a letdown though.

[SilentBlade]

you're potentially right Paradigm! I am not sure if Madara had the extra DNA to push himself further or not to unlock the Rinnegan before death, but it seams like he must have figured something out. My thought though is that the Sharingan is a sealed version with something similar to the Cursed Seal of Heaven, considering its effects.

Also, consider this, perhaps the Uzumaki (having their expertise on seals) were able to unlock the seal? I am not sure, the whole Uzumaki with a Rinnegan throws me a bit, but something along those lines makes sense.

[megabbaut]

The Sharingan was never an evolution in the first place, much less to the Rinnegan or the Byakugan. EMS does not evolve into the Rinnegan. It's a completely different Doujutsu earned when combining Uchiha and Senju DNA (Madara got it when he got Hashirama's face on his arm)

[Narutorious]

It is likely that you need both Senju and Uchiha DNA to achieved the Rinnegan, the only 2 people who has the Rinnegan both has Uchiha and Senju DNA, Madara & Tobi(though we still don't know how he got it, it could possibly be Madara's), we know Madara fought Harishama to attain some of his DNA, and honestly I don't see why they would want Harishama's DNA if it wasn't a requirement to achieved the Rinnegan since they can control the tail beasts with their Sharingans. As for Nagato, Tobi said he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato, I don't see why he would lied to Konan about it.

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

The Sharingan was never an evolution in the first place, much less to the Rinnegan or the Byakugan. EMS does not evolve into the Rinnegan. It's a completely different Doujutsu earned when combining Uchiha and Senju DNA (Madara got it when he got Hashirama's face on his arm)

ah, but are they all different? we're told that there are a lot of similarities between the Byakugan, Sharingan and Rinnegan. We're told that the Sharingan found its origins in the Hyuga, and we're told that the Uchiha were considered decedents of the Elder son, so somewhere down the line, the Elder son who possessed the Rinnegan, through generations something happened.

The question is what? Also we know that the RInnegan is required to read the entire tablet left by SoSP to the Uchiha clan. That said, I would stand by my statement of the Sharingan being a sealed version of the RInnegan, and the need for Senju DNA (or DNA with the life force of the younger son) is so that the user has the power then to unseal the eye.

[Uchiha Sora]

Technically it is an evolution, but it's an inferior one

[SilentBlade]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora

Technically it is an evolution, but it's an inferior one

yeah, the word I should have used was "derivative" instead of evolution, but yeah I do fumble words at times :-p

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

If you could check my posts (I'm on an iPad and I'm too lazy to go and copy it), find my debate with Rikudo Sage about whether or not the Rinnegan is the final stage of Sharingan.

[SilentBlade]

Its not so much the final stage as perhaps the sealed state of it. Or atleast that is what I am looking to show.

[Rikudo Sage]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

If you could check my posts (I'm on an iPad and I'm too lazy to go and copy it), find my debate with Rikudo Sage about whether or not the Rinnegan is the final stage of Sharingan.

Now that I just remember it.. You just got owned on that debate.