Spoiler Tobi's Pocket Dimension: Key to Tobi being Obito?

[K3nsh!n]

First of all let me make this clear-THIS IS NOT ANOTHER TOBI=OBITO THEORY!!
The purpose of this thread is to objectively discuss a hypothesis even though it could in fact actually support the Tobi=Obito theories..

I am not a Tobi=Obito theorist and have my own Theory about Tobi being Fugaku to support, so it may appear rather ironic to some readers about me unearthing possible evidence in support of Obito theories

We all know that Obito's age and his apparently inconceivable progress have been the prominent factor in the Tobi=Obito theories being rejected, and being so unpopular...
I don't think so far, any of the Tobi theorists have been able to satisfactorily explain this inconsistency(at least none that I recall)...
So I feel a certain pride-again, even though I am not a Tobi=Obito theorist -when I say that I have found a plausible explanation even they couldn't!

Okay enough chatter...
I will get to point:

Spoiler:

The time period between Obito's supposed death and the Kyuubi attack is barely 1 year. At most it can be 2 years.
No matter how you look at it, 1-2 years is too little time for some knucklehead like Obito to achieve Kage level and become an adult.
But what if that 1-2 years of time could be dilated so that they amount to 5 or even 10 years?
Impossible? Think about it!

Anyone who has watched DBZ would know of the Hyberbolic Time Chamber.
1 year inside the chamber is equivalent to 1 day outside!

What if Tobi's pocket dimension is the same?
Since it is an alternate dimension created by Tobi himself he should, speaking theoretically, be able to manipulate the flow of time inside it!!
So he could make the time flow faster inside the pocket dimension!!

Maybe Obito spent years training inside his pocket dimension while only a few months passed in the real world!
The time he spent inside that dimension could easily exceed 10 years since the Tobi we saw fighting Minato was an adult.

10 years is enough time for someone with Sharingan to achieve extraordinary skill, especially if trained under some competent Uchiha like Madara!!
This could also be why he appears older than Kakashi, because he actually aged that much!

Since Kishi is big DBZ fan, it's actually quite possible!!

*gasp*

OK! Now all that explanation is how I think Kishi would explain the time-gap in case Tobi is Obito. Mind you, there are still other inconsistencies in the Obito theories, which I really don't have an explanation for, since I am not a Tobi=obito theorist.
And I still don't think-or rather want Tobi to be Obito. Because then it would mean my Fugaku theory is wrong
Cheers!!

[nobel89]

you're saying that the kyuubi incident happened 1 or 2 years after Obito's death .. however watch the series when tobi was fighting minato .. kakashi an gai appeared and they were adults .. may be same age as naruto now .. and when it comes to obito's skill , he had a very good plan and powerful sharingan to control the kyuubi and he was able to use the space-time jutsu well but he didn't stand a chance in front of the fourth hokage minato ....

[nobel89]

and my greatest clue which makes me believe toby=obito is what pain said after fighting kakashi " so he also got by with that occuller jutsu"

kakashi uses tha same jutsu and he has obito's eye ...

[uchiha|itachi]

hmmmmmm i see some interesting ideas here....could be true....i don't support tobi=obito but i don't reject it either so i'd say this make sense

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

That's a good idea.

(I had the same thought for my self-made character, I was supposing that he had a whole other dimension and a real world in his imagination, where he can create anything he wants, if he eats in that world, it applies to REALITY, it was really complicated but was awesome, even though I didn't really think of the time manipulation).

Your theory might be true, but it's like connecting illusion to reality since Tobi's dimension is just in his mind or somewhere nobody knows (that's what I think) and kind of impossible to be IMPLIED to reality, however if that's true, Tobi might be Obito, but it might be Fugaku / Kagami too (his marks / scars become explicable, meaning he got really really old).

[K3nsh!n]

Originally Posted by nobel89

you're saying that the kyuubi incident happened 1 or 2 years after Obito's death .. however watch the series when tobi was fighting minato .. kakashi an gai appeared and they were adults .. may be same age as naruto now .. and when it comes to obito's skill , he had a very good plan and powerful sharingan to control the kyuubi and he was able to use the space-time jutsu well but he didn't stand a chance in front of the fourth hokage minato ....

The numbers say otherwise...
Kakashi became Jonin at 13.
Obito died when when he was also 13.
Kakashi's current age is 29-30, say 30.
The Kyuubi incident happened 16 years ago.
Therefore Kyuubi incident occurred when Kakashi was 30-16=14
Since Obito's age is same as Kakashi he also has to be around 14 years of age-if he is Tobi-at the time of of Kyuubi attack!

Originally Posted by uchiha|itachi

hmmmmmm i see some interesting ideas here....could be true....i don't support tobi=obito but i don't reject it either so i'd say this make sense

^This is exactly the kind of attitude I wish other's to have...
I am afraid people will simply dismiss this idea without giving it a second thought just because it will ultimately support Tobi=Obito theories
I want people to look at it logically without any prejudice...
Isn't that how logic is supposed to be? Rational and unbiased?

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

That's a good idea.

(I had the same thought for my self-made character, I was supposing that he had a whole other dimension and a real world in his imagination, where he can create anything he wants, if he eats in that world, it applies to REALITY, it was really complicated but was awesome, even though I didn't really think of the time manipulation).

Your theory might be true, but it's like connecting illusion to reality since Tobi's dimension is just in his mind or somewhere nobody knows (that's what I think) and kind of impossible to be IMPLIED to reality, however if that's true, Tobi might be Obito, but it might be Fugaku / Kagami too (his marks / scars become explicable, meaning he got really really old).

lol!!
You are making things more complicated...
It's nothing like connecting illusion to reality!!
Nor is the dimension just in Tobi's mind! Come on, he collected all those eyes, he transferred people: Sasuke,Karin, himself...
Tobi's pocket dimension is REAL
The WHOLE point of classifying space-time ninjutsu as "space-time" is because they rely on "manipulation of space AND time"!
That's one of the reasons I gave example of DBZ's hyperbolic time chamber- makes things easier to understand.

Tobi is the only one who created an alternate dimension with his sapce-time ninjutsu.
We have never seen Tobirama's space-time ninjutsu, even Minato probably never created a dimension of his own.
So there are no facts supporting this hypothesis.
But like I said manipulation of space and time is an inherent characteristic of all space-time ninjutsu so it should be possible.

And yes! You are right!
Even if it's true that Tobi can manipulate the flow of time in his pocket dimension, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is Obito-but it does make Obito theories more probable...

[kalmeast]

@ K3nah!n. First of all, this is a good "theory"...possible.
Second, if you are a true genius, u gotta learn to give up ur own theory easy when something else makes more sense. geniuses search for truth, and NOT validation of their own ideas....so it shouldn't be a big deal if u have doubts about Fugaku since i assume u're a genius like me

Thirdly, u got me thinking? If itachi's Tsukuyomi can make 1 second last for 3 days, i dont see why not Obito training under similar circumstances where 1 year would be several years in his training.

Originally Posted by nobel89

and my greatest clue which makes me believe toby=obito is what pain said after fighting kakashi " so he also got by with that occuller jutsu"

kakashi uses tha same jutsu and he has obito's eye ...

lol..i thought i was the only one who noticed this sentence! i asked the forum but was ignored
This to me suggest that Nagato fought with Tobi before he relinquished his power to serve Tobi. And Tobi got away with similar jutsu as kakashi. that's why nagato made that comment. Though it doesn't say nothing about obito.

[paradigm1977]

Very creative and makes sense. Similar time manipulation ideas have occured throughout fiction, (the tv show Fringe - just tonight, a similar issue was explored).

However, Minato apologized to Kakashi for not arriving in time. Rin told him "everything" thats in the manga. So it's established that Rin could not save Obito." Those lines are usually left out of the Obito=Tobi argument.

To fit, and not be a mistake. the Konoha ninja, including Minato, would have had to leave Obito's body behind, or at least not bother to look for it, and then assume he's dead (still dead if we use the lines to interpret this as Rin diagnosed him as dead - which I believe is the interpretation the author wants us to have).

I don't believe Minato would leave Obito's body behind. I also don't believe that Susake's dead parents would not have been examined, allowing for the chance that they were discovered to be zetsu clones - ruling out Fugaku.

of the two, I would say that the examiner mistake is still more likely than the left behind decision.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

But you can't manipulate time so easily.
Because if you manipulate time in Tobi's Dimension making it 1 day = 1 month it can't just simply APPLY to reality, there must be a CONNECTION.

[K3nsh!n]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

@ K3nah!n. *Wonders if that misspelling was intentional*First of all, this is a good "theory"...possible.
Second, if you are a true genius, u gotta learn to give up ur own theory easy when something else makes more sense. geniuses search for truth, and NOT validation of their own ideas....so it shouldn't be a big deal if u have doubts about Fugaku since i assume u're a genius like me

As a human being, I am naturally flawed!!

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

However, Minato apologized to Kakashi for not arriving in time. Rin told him "everything" thats in the manga. So it's established that Rin could not save Obito." Those lines are usually left out of the Obito=Tobi argument.

To fit, and not be a mistake. the Konoha ninja, including Minato, would have had to leave Obito's body behind, or at least not bother to look for it, and then assume he's dead (still dead if we use the lines to interpret this as Rin diagnosed him as dead - which I believe is the interpretation the author wants us to have).

I don't believe Minato would leave Obito's body behind. I also don't believe that Susake's dead parents would not have been examined, allowing for the chance that they were discovered to be zetsu clones - ruling out Fugaku.

of the two, I would say that the examiner mistake is still more likely than the left behind decision.

Again that's something for the real Obito theorists to address
Although, I have a feeling I could probably come up with some explanation- if I tried

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

But you can't manipulate time so easily.

That's besides the point...
It's doesn't matter how difficult it is-as long as it can be done!
Kishi already hinted that Tobi's space-time techniques are more advanced than even Minato's.

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

Because if you manipulate time in Tobi's Dimension making it 1 day = 1 month it can't just simply APPLY to reality, there must be a CONNECTION.

I think you are confusing this with Izanagi/Izanami...
I will try and explain it again:

Tobi goes into his dimension for some time and then returns
To the observer who is outside that dimension, Tobi was inside only for a few minutes.
But for Tobi he was inside for hours!!

So who do you think made the correct observation?
Ironically, both of them are right in their observations.
That's because the flow of time inside Tob's dimension is different from the flow of time in the outside world
So there no need to apply it to reality, because IT'S ALREADY REAL!

If there was another observer who could observe both the 1st Obsever and Tobi at the same time, to him it would appear like a watching a split-screen movie where one part (Tobi's) has a higher frame rate than the other (1st observer).

Refer Einsteins General theory of relativity to get a better idea

Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say and all that explanation was unnecessary?

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

I knew exactly what you meant when I read the original post.

By your theory, Tobi's technique works kind of like Tsukuyomi, except Tobi dissapears from the REAL world and goes into his pocket dimension. He has a different time there, but Tobi's jutsu seems like it's partly illusionary to me.

Basically there's possibly another jutsu in here that helps Tobi warp time and kind of make it different from the real world, so it might be a part-illusion in a sort of way. (at least that's what I think)

--

Also, kalmeast you just love promoting yourself to a genius don't you? Anyways, I'm not saying you're bad whatsoever, but a genius is a bit too far (talking on a wide range -- Einstein, Newton, etc. ; you get my point).

And God darn it, I loved this quote of yours kal : "Second, if you are a true genius, u gotta learn to give up ur own theory easy when something else makes more sense. geniuses search for truth, and NOT validation of their own ideas."

[Rasen_Chidori]

How then if Tobi is Obito, did Madara know of Tobi? Seeing as even though he didn't die during his fight with Hashirama, he, considering his appearance, died not too long thereafter. Remember that the 3rd was an old man during the Kyuubi attack so Madara would be at least 20 years older than him.

Obito wouldn't have been born when Madara died. And it's virtually confirmed that Madara knows Tobi, he and Kabuto were speaking about Tobi after Madara was revived. Therefore, Madara had to have known of Tobi BEFORE he died.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

Madara and Tobi were accomplices.

[Rasen_Chidori]

Exactly, so unless Obito or Madara can travel through time, Tobi couldn't be Obito because Madara would've died before he was born.

[kalmeast]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

--

Also, kalmeast you just love promoting yourself to a genius don't you? Anyways, I'm not saying you're bad whatsoever, but a genius is a bit too far (talking on a wide range -- Einstein, Newton, etc. ; you get my point).
oops..this the 2nd time i ever called myself that, and now i'm in trouble... Naa, i dont see myself as a true genius, only casually...
besides..Einstein, Newton, are beyond genius... Kishi is a genius! and give me 6 years and I'll catch up to him

And God darn it, I loved this quote of yours kal : "Second, if you are a true genius, u gotta learn to give up ur own theory easy when something else makes more sense. geniuses search for truth, and NOT validation of their own ideas."
lol... then u must be a genius too

in blue

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

I'll split those 6 years of yours in half

No, you're not in trouble, but if we use the word genius here, its meaning is drastically reduced to the 1/8 of the real MEANING. Also would you mind reading my 2 new threads, I'd really love to hear your thoughts.

Also, I don't believe I'm a genius, at least not in the Narutoverse, my creativity is not really something close to yours, my theories aren't as good, or maybe the are good, but I just lack attention by other people.

[K3nsh!n]

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

I knew exactly what you meant when I read the original post.

I am not sure about that...

Originally Posted by Kyūbi no Yōko

By your theory, Tobi's technique works kind of like Tsukuyomi, except Tobi dissapears from the REAL world and goes into his pocket dimension. He has a different time there, but Tobi's jutsu seems like it's partly illusionary to me.

Basically there's possibly another jutsu in here that helps Tobi warp time and kind of make it different from the real world, so it might be a part-illusion in a sort of way. (at least that's what I think)

When did I say Tobi's technique works kind of like Tsukuyomi?
It was Kalmeast who mentioned Itachi's Tsukuyomi and he wasn't even making a direct comparison...

Tobi's technique is way different from Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
Itachi's Tsukuyomi merely alters victim's perception of time. It's only an illusion.
While Tobi technique actually manipulates the time within his pocket dimension to make it flow faster or slower.
It's NOT AN ILLUSION!
Tobi's dimension is a physical space-if it wasn't he couldn't hoard all those sharigans there or bring people in there physically...

Originally Posted by Rasen_Chidori

How then if Tobi is Obito, did Madara know of Tobi? Seeing as even though he didn't die during his fight with Hashirama, he, considering his appearance, died not too long thereafter. Remember that the 3rd was an old man during the Kyuubi attack so Madara would be at least 20 years older than him.

Obito wouldn't have been born when Madara died. And it's virtually confirmed that Madara knows Tobi, he and Kabuto were speaking about Tobi after Madara was revived. Therefore, Madara had to have known of Tobi BEFORE he died.

Kabuto himself said he made a few changes to Madara ET. He said he resurrected Madara beyond his prime(or something like that-I don't remember exactly)
Obviously an old Madara cannot be at his prime, much less beyond his prime. So ET Madara's current appearance can be considered a result of Kabuto's tampering.
So ET Madara's appearance cannot be used to predict his time of death.
For all we know, he could have died a day before the Kyuubi attack...
--
Again plz note that this is not a thread about Tobi=Obito, so try and not spam me with questions related to such theories...
And although I may have an answer for a few questions(like the one above)don't expect me to know an answer for every single one...
That is not the purpose of this thread.

[paradigm1977]

The time of death attributed to Madara is mainly attributed to his opinion of Nagato as a brat.

It is most likely (and my opinion) he did in fact die then, rather than simply have Tobi watch over him (this refers to Tobi saying Nagato's rinnegan came from him and that he came up with akatsuki).

It's not fact that we know when Madara died, But it is fact that each has an Eye of the Moon plan and know of each other. So that means they worked together, unless someone requires one of the two to specifically say that.

ET Madara's age doesn't matter. Kabuto has surpassed Madara and Oro as a scientist. Hashi's face sticking out of Madara's chest should confirm that. Why that face doesn't stick out of Kabuto's chest....plot no jutsu.

[paradigm1977]

With time in the pocket dimension...

With Tsukuyomi, time is controlled by the user, if they are good enough.

There is no indication that Tobi controls time in the dimension. It may simply be as it is. whether it matches the passage of time in the main dimension or not.

I don't think there is necessarily enough proof that it is a "pocket dimension"

With other likely factual arguments on time lines and such we can rely on more than one character as a factor in a theory. But with the ...other dimension... that Tobi has access to, no one else claims knowledge (or did I forget something) of its' physics.

I just think the dimension operating at a different rate, is an attractive idea to both a reader and a theorist. I would like it to be true just to be even more interesting.

[nobel89]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"] lol..i thought i was the only one who noticed this sentence! i asked the forum but was ignored
This to me suggest that Nagato fought with Tobi before he relinquished his power to serve Tobi. And Tobi got away with similar jutsu as kakashi. that's why nagato made that comment. Though it doesn't say nothing about obito.


every sharingan has special powers like sasuke can put down amaterasu and uchiha sishui has the ultimate gengutsu and tobi and kakashi have space-time jutsu ... kakashi has a left eye while tobi only shows his right one ,i know he used his left eye when he was fighting konan but he uses his right eye when using the what you call pocket dimension jutsu ... like uchiha sishui ,danzo had his eye and he could use his ability while itachi had the other eye and he used his ability on himself ..