Suigetsu vs. Itachi

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Sooooo........Itachi wins then? Cause he's clearly not staying on the water, and that's the only possible little chance Suigetsu has of winning.

It seems like all the Itachi supporters think Suigetsu is not allowed to move. Not the only chance Suigetsu has of winning, Itachi leaving the water is Itachi's only chance to survive the first few seconds of the fight. I thought that was a given.

Why would leaving the water give Itachi a win? Assuming and going along with that Suigetsu is incapable of moving of course. He still can't hurt Suigetsu.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Gaia

It seems like all the Itachi supporters think Suigetsu is not allowed to move. Not the only chance Suigetsu has of winning, Itachi leaving the water is Itachi's only chance to survive the first few seconds of the fight. I thought that was a given.

Why would leaving the water give Itachi a win? Assuming and going along with that Suigetsu is incapable of moving of course. He still can't hurt Suigetsu.

Like I said before, if Suigetsu leaves the water too, he's obviously screwed. And if Suigetsu doesn't leave the water too, then what? He just stays in hydrofication mode until he runs out of chakra? Then Itachi wins. Does he try to attack Itachi who's out of the water? Then Itachi counters with susanoo/totsuka sword/yata mirror and wins. As soon as Itachi steps foot on dry land, there's really nothing Suigetsu can do to win.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

Like I said before, if Suigetsu leaves the water too, he's obviously screwed. And if Suigetsu doesn't leave the water too, then what? He just stays in hydrofication mode until he runs out of chakra? Then Itachi wins. Does he try to attack Itachi who's out of the water? Then Itachi counters with susanoo/totsuka sword/yata mirror and wins. As soon as Itachi steps foot on dry land, there's really nothing Suigetsu can do to win.

"It's so obvious he's screwed. Obviously. Anyone with a brain can tell he's obviously screwed. I'm not going to tell why he's screwed but it's oh-so obvious."

How will Suigetsu run out of chakra before Itachi? He has more chakra than Itachi and how will having a world of water at his disposal wear him down? Itachi isn't the one who can sit back and relax, because if he doesn't remain in Susano'o then he's going to be killed by a water gun or drowned. Suigetsu on the other hand can do whatever the hell he wants because Itachi has nothing to hurt him with.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Gaia

"It's so obvious he's screwed. Obviously. Anyone with a brain can tell he's obviously screwed. I'm not going to tell why he's screwed but it's oh-so obvious."

If you want to try and argue Suigetsu winning a land fight with Itachi then go for it.

How will Suigetsu run out of chakra before Itachi? He has more chakra than Itachi and how will having a world of water at his disposal wear him down?

Proof that he has more chakra? Itachi was able to use Susanoo despite being half dead and already having used other chakra draining techniques. What has Suigetsu done?

Itachi isn't the one who can sit back and relax, because if he doesn't remain in Susano'o then he's going to be killed by a water gun or drowned.

When did Suigetsu use water gun? Do you have a scan of that? It's not like Itachi couldn't just dodge anyways.

Suigetsu on the other hand can do whatever the hell he wants because Itachi has nothing to hurt him with.

I think you're severely overestimating Suigetsu's hydrification. He can't just disperse himfelf limitlessly throughout the ocean or something. Even when he uses it, he still keeps a centralized location that is capable of being injured as shown by the fact that he was.


IMO, if the totsuka sword hits that part of him, he'd be sealed.

[Kuromaki]

can't show scans bro

just tell him what chapter& page it is

[Frost ninja]

Suigetsu doesn't really have the attack speed to actually hit Itachi without him reacting... So even if he stays on the water theres not much of anything suigetsu can do that won't get him genjutsu'd.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

can't show scans bro

just tell him what chapter& page it is

Oh, sorry. Didn't realize that was a problem. edit: Ah, I only read the battleground rules. The forum rules ninja'd me.

ch. 414 pg. 5.....or really (afaik) anytime he uses the technique he still has a centralized location.

[Frost ninja]

Thats what I said, even in water giant mode he never is fully puddle'd. He has to form to attack, and once he does its either genjutsu or tosaka stab into the GG.

[MinatoXNaruto]

Exactly. It's almost like Tobi. If he wants to attack, he has solidify in order to do it. Itachi would recognize this in an instant and easily incapacitate Suigetsu rendering him useless

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

If you want to try and argue Suigetsu winning a land fight with Itachi then go for it.

When he has a lake at his disposal and nothing Itachi can do can hurt Suigetsu? Any time.

Proof that he has more chakra? Itachi was able to use Susanoo despite being half dead and already having used other chakra draining techniques. What has Suigetsu done?

When did Suigetsu use water gun? Do you have a scan of that? It's not like Itachi couldn't just dodge anyways.

Susano'o wore him down extremely quickly to the point of his death. He can't kill Suigetsu, so he wastes his chakra.

Yes, when he met Sasuke. Itachi dodge a water gun? Baseless, but I should restrict water gun anyway because with it, it makes it a bigger stomp.

I think you're severely overestimating Suigetsu's hydrification. He can't just disperse himfelf limitlessly throughout the ocean or something. Even when he uses it, he still keeps a centralized location that is capable of being injured as shown by the fact that he was.

Injured by a TBB, which Itachi can only dream of replicating the power of. Injured maybe, not by any physical attacks like Totsuka or punches or kicks.

IMO, if the totsuka sword hits that part of him, he'd be sealed.

Instead, the part that's hit liquifies and he easily moves somewhere else to avoid.

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Suigetsu doesn't really have the attack speed to actually hit Itachi without him reacting... So even if he stays on the water theres not much of anything suigetsu can do that won't get him genjutsu'd.

Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Thats what I said, even in water giant mode he never is fully puddle'd. He has to form to attack, and once he does its either genjutsu or tosaka stab into the GG.

Being "formed" does not mean he's "solid" and susceptible to physical damage. Never once has he been like this. He's immune to physical attacks and beats Itachi. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by MinatoXNaruto

Exactly. It's almost like Tobi. If he wants to attack, he has solidify in order to do it. Itachi would recognize this in an instant and easily incapacitate Suigetsu rendering him useless

He does not solidify. His water form is immune to physical damage.

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by Gaia

Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.

Um... Tosaka seals him, Itachi Genjutsus, or he simply waits until Suigetsu kills himself in chakra loss. I haven't seen any feats to suggest Suigetsu is at all superior in chakra.

Being "formed" does not mean he's "solid" and susceptible to physical damage. Never once has he been like this. He's immune to physical attacks and beats Itachi. Deal with it.

Deal with it? Because TBB seemed to be pretty physical. And it seemed to incap him efficently. And Spirit sword doesn't need to kill him, it just needs to touch him. Meaning, yes. If Suigetsu is existant in the water, he can get hit with it and have his chakra sealed away.

I don't get where you have this illusion that Suigetsu is immune to physical damage when he got tossed by a TBB. And again by a lightning sword.

He does not solidify. His water form is immune to physical damage.

Right... TBB disproves along with the thunder sword.

He gets a Tosaka to the face or a genjutsu. Either way, theres nothing Sui can do to kill Itachi.

Hell, Itachi doesn't even need Susanoo I'm so confident.
Genjutsu is all thats necessary. In every way, Suigetsu has no possible way to win.


Also immune is an absolute and you'd do good to stay away. A planet busting physical will kill liquified suigetsu.

[UchihaXSasuke]

1.Amaterasu can burn him,eighter if in liquid form or normal form
2.Tsukuyomi

[megabbaut]

1. He is water so it doesn't affect him
2. Does not work because he has knowledge

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

1. He is water so it doesn't affect him
2. Does not work because he has knowledge

1. Amaterasu burns away whatever the user sets his sight on (Even water-this is stated multiple times and it is proved that water can't put out Amaterasu in the Taka vs. Killer Bee fight).
2. This has been stated so many times and is starting to get on everyone's nerves-to restate for the billionth time, just because you have knowledge on a tech doesn't mean you can stop it. Look through previous posts in this thread for explanations as to why.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Right... TBB disproves along with the thunder sword.

He gets a Tosaka to the face or a genjutsu. Either way, theres nothing Sui can do to kill Itachi.

Hell, Itachi doesn't even need Susanoo I'm so confident.
Genjutsu is all thats necessary. In every way, Suigetsu has no possible way to win.


Also immune is an absolute and you'd do good to stay away. A planet busting physical will kill liquified suigetsu.

We all know Suigetsu is only weak to Raiton. Which Itachi doesn't have. TBB is an energy based attack which Itachi also doesn't have.

Doesn't need Susano'o? Itachi loses a few seconds into the match without it, he's going to need it to even last. Genjutsu is useless because Suigetsu has knowledge.

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

Fortunately for Suigetsu, Itachi has absolutely no Raitons or energy based attacks on the level of TBB, or anything capable of killing him at all.

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

1. Amaterasu burns away whatever the user sets his sight on (Even water-this is stated multiple times and it is proved that water can't put out Amaterasu in the Taka vs. Killer Bee fight).
2. This has been stated so many times and is starting to get on everyone's nerves-to restate for the billionth time, just because you have knowledge on a tech doesn't mean you can stop it. Look through previous posts in this thread for explanations as to why.

Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

[TRcommander]

Originally Posted by Gaia

Susano'o wore him down extremely quickly to the point of his death. He can't kill Suigetsu, so he wastes his chakra.

You got that backwards......susanoo didn't wear him down to death, he was already almost dead and was still able to use it.

Yes, when he met Sasuke. Itachi dodge a water gun? Baseless, but I should restrict water gun anyway because with it, it makes it a bigger stomp.

So saying that one of the fastest characters in the series who also has the sharigan would be able to dodge a linear attack is baseless? No, what's baseless is you saying that Suigetsu could even use the water gun without telling me when he's actually done so. So yes, water gun should be restricted but not because it somehow stomps Itachi......it's restricted unless you can show me Suigetsu actually using it.

Injured by a TBB, which Itachi can only dream of replicating the power of. Injured maybe, not by any physical attacks like Totsuka or punches or kicks.
Instead, the part that's hit liquifies and he easily moves somewhere else to avoid.

Since when is using the totsuka sword to seal people considered a physical attack?

Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.

Except he is capable of hurting Suigetsu using the totsuka sword if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Gaia

We all know Suigetsu is only weak to Raiton. Which Itachi doesn't have. TBB is an energy based attack which Itachi also doesn't have.

Since when is the totsuka sword not more than just a physical attack?

Doesn't need Susano'o? Itachi loses a few seconds into the match without it, he's going to need it to even last. Genjutsu is useless because Suigetsu has knowledge.

How does knowledge = immunity?

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

I don't think it works like that......pretty sure a planet busting punch would have more than enough energy to destroy Suigetsu no matter what form he's in.

Fortunately for Suigetsu, Itachi has absolutely no Raitons or energy based attacks on the level of TBB, or anything capable of killing him at all.

Totsuka sword and genjutsu.

Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

How does Suigetsu fight Itachi if he can't look at him?

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Gaia

Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

It looks like we are at an impasse. I don't think there's anything we can do to convince you that Itachi can hurt Suigetsu/win the battle, but I will try one more time, nonetheless:
Itachi's Totsuka sword as believed by the Itachi supporters in this thread is a spiritual sword and should be able to "pierce" Suigetsu and bind him even if he's in his water form because it targets the opponents soul/chakra.

Also you've never proven that Suigetsu will be able to hit/hurt Itachi. Itachi has multiple feats showing his fast reaction time and ability to evade attacks. Suigetsu on the other hand has to fight Itachi while not looking at his eyes or hands (something Kurenai and Asuma, two jonin, weren't capable of doing-only Guy could and that's because he had years of practice fighting against Kakashi).

A final method for Itachi to win, besides Totsuka and simply outlasting the Hydrification Technique is to use Amaterasu when Suigetsu tries to attack him. Amaterasu burns away everything the user sees-including water (aka Suigetsu while in liquid form).

I'm not saying this is an easy/certain victory for Itachi, just that it's more likely Itachi would win due to his skillset, intelligence, and battle experience.

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by Gaia

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.

Also tosuka is, by definition, an etherial sword. Its not a physical blade, in fact its made up of the chakra coming from susanoo itself. Chakra is energy, as you've stated in the case of KB, which Suigetsu is not immune to. So him being immune to physical damage, baseless as the claim is, is irrelevant since the sword itself isn't based around its own physicality.

Suigetsu isn't immune to chakra + Tosuka is made of chakra = Suigetsu isn't immune to totsuka.



For the rest of it, no water gun feats means its an unquanfitiable issue. Without proof we can't say for sure how fast it is. Second, Suigetsu hasn't got the speed to hit Itachi without him reacting with a genjutsu, ammy, or susanoo sword to the gullet.

Itachi has all he needs in genjutsu, because Suigetsu doesn't have anything to even come close to hitting Itachi with that won't simply end in his own death.

[Godaime Kazekage]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.

I actually agree with Gaia here-when Suigetsu is attacked physically (punched, kicked, sliced, whatever) he just reforms where he was attacked (while in Hydrification mode of course). The only physical attack I see working on him is something like Asakujaku in which he would be attacked so quickly in so many places he wouldn't be able to reform.

In any case Itachi doesn't need physical attacks to beat him and his most effective techniques are all ninjutsu or genjutsu.

[Gaia]

Originally Posted by TRcommander

You got that backwards......susanoo didn't wear him down to death, he was already almost dead and was still able to use it.

So saying that one of the fastest characters in the series who also has the sharigan would be able to dodge a linear attack is baseless? No, what's baseless is you saying that Suigetsu could even use the water gun without telling me when he's actually done so. So yes, water gun should be restricted but not because it somehow stomps Itachi......it's restricted unless you can show me Suigetsu actually using it.

No, but saying Itachi is one of the fastest characters in the manga is quite baseless.

Since when is using the totsuka sword to seal people considered a physical attack?

Since forever, when it is required to actually pierce you which it cannot do to Suigetsu.

Except he is capable of hurting Suigetsu using the totsuka sword if nothing else.

Except he isn't.

Since when is the totsuka sword not more than just a physical attack?

It never was, because it has to pierce its opponent to seal them. If it can't pierce them, it has no way to be able to seal them.

How does knowledge = immunity?

Because Suigetsu can easily avoid to look into Itachi's eyes to avoid all genjutsu.

I don't think it works like that......pretty sure a planet busting punch would have more than enough energy to destroy Suigetsu no matter what form he's in.

It wouldn't do anything, this is common sense. It would go through him.

Totsuka sword and genjutsu.

Useless because of knowledge and immune to physical damage.

How does Suigetsu fight Itachi if he can't look at him?

By just not looking at his eyes. Conversely I ask of you how does Itachi do anything to win when he can't hurt Suigetsu?

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage

It looks like we are at an impasse. I don't think there's anything we can do to convince you that Itachi can hurt Suigetsu/win the battle, but I will try one more time, nonetheless:
Itachi's Totsuka sword as believed by the Itachi supporters in this thread is a spiritual sword and should be able to "pierce" Suigetsu and bind him even if he's in his water form because it targets the opponents soul/chakra.

I've never seen people claim that Tobi could be sealed by it, because he can't, because he's intangible. Similarly, Suigetsu can simply liquify and reform, Itachi cannoy do anything to hurt him. Totsuka sword sealing is not synonymous with the piercing, and regardless he can't pierce Suigetsu.

Also you've never proven that Suigetsu will be able to hit/hurt Itachi. Itachi has multiple feats showing his fast reaction time and ability to evade attacks. Suigetsu on the other hand has to fight Itachi while not looking at his eyes or hands (something Kurenai and Asuma, two jonin, weren't capable of doing-only Guy could and that's because he had years of practice fighting against Kakashi).

Considering Itachi has far less stamina than Suigetsu, and Itachi can't hurt Suigetsu, I find drowning and keeping Itachi on the defensive and the use of water gun and whatever high level suiton Suigetsu may have heavily effective in dealing with Itachi. Kurenai and Asuma were not inable to do that, nobody you mentioned has full knowledge on Itachi.

A final method for Itachi to win, besides Totsuka and simply outlasting the Hydrification Technique is to use Amaterasu when Suigetsu tries to attack him. Amaterasu burns away everything the user sees-including water (aka Suigetsu while in liquid form).

Itachi outlast Suigetsu? I believe it's the other way around. Itachi can't hurt Suigetsu at all, Suigetsu won't be wasting any chakra, he will be sitting and tanking any attack Itachi can dream of throwing. Itachi again has far less stamina than Suigetsu. Now on the other hand I could claim the same thing in that Suigetsu will wait until Itachi wastes all of his chakra trying to kill Suigetsu, since Suigetsu can't hurt him.

I'm not saying this is an easy/certain victory for Itachi, just that it's more likely Itachi would win due to his skillset, intelligence, and battle experience.

Again, if you are the smartest ninja, the most battle experience, and the most incredible skillset it doesn't mean jack if the opponent has the perfect body that can't be harmed by any of said attacks. And he has full knowledge on everything you're capable of.

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.

It would go through him. I really don't feel the need to waste my time to go back to find one of the most hundred times that Suigetsu was hit by a physical attack and merely liquified, if you think Suigetsu suddenly doesn't have that ability because I haven't posted any scans of it, you're trolling.

Also tosuka is, by definition, an etherial sword. Its not a physical blade, in fact its made up of the chakra coming from susanoo itself. Chakra is energy, as you've stated in the case of KB, which Suigetsu is not immune to. So him being immune to physical damage, baseless as the claim is, is irrelevant since the sword itself isn't based around its own physicality.

Suigetsu isn't immune to chakra + Tosuka is made of chakra = Suigetsu isn't immune to totsuka.

Good thing each time it was used it physically pierced through the victim in order to seal them. Which it cannot do to Suigetsu because he liquifies. If you can find me a panel in which Totsuka sealed someone without piercing them first, then please, I'll be waiting. Until then, your argument about Totsuka being able to seal something it can't pierce has nothing to stand on.

For the rest of it, no water gun feats means its an unquanfitiable issue. Without proof we can't say for sure how fast it is. Second, Suigetsu hasn't got the speed to hit Itachi without him reacting with a genjutsu, ammy, or susanoo sword to the gullet.

See second Mizukage vs Onoki to see how fast it is. Regardless as I said, any of those attacks you listed is ineffective, so no real loss for Suigetsu while Itachi just wasted oodles of chakra trying to see if Amaterasu or any of his other attacks are effective. I don't think you're keeping Itachi's lack of knowledge in mind.

Itachi has all he needs in genjutsu, because Suigetsu doesn't have anything to even come close to hitting Itachi with that won't simply end in his own death.

Good thing Suigetsu can easily avoid being placed in genjutsu.