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Old 04-06-2012, 12:58 PM   #61
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?

Also even if Suigetsu is just water, he still has chakra. Just like if he were to go into a puddle Neji would be able to mess with his chakra by poking the puddle, I don't have much doubt that Itachi can seal a water giant. Plus in 414 4-5, we can see Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode when he makes giants or appears at all.

So to attack he is pretty much setting his own loss. That is, if Itachi doesn't simply walk out of the water and onto the island itself.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:18 PM   #62
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Frost ninja View Post
Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?
That's a really intriguing idea-theoretically it is possible because Itachi can use Water Release techniques and the Hydrification technique isn't a Kekkei Genkei.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #63
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Totsuka is a spiritual sealing sword. So thats why. Its different. Or so it supposed to be.

Itachi never attempted to use Totsuka on Kabuto anyway so you cannot use that scenario.

Plus Kabuto's liquidification is more manually based from what I have seen.

The Finger doesn't require Kabuto to look at it but its likely weaker than sharingan genjutsu. Plus Kabuto being a skilled medic with quite great chakra control and able to master Sage Mode, its likely Itachi is seeing it won't be as effective.

If Itachi does, and if he does catch him. He could always trick him that so he could Tsukiyomi to subdue him.
It shouldn't matter if physical attacks don't affect Suigetsu. The sword cannot pierce him, so it's useless.

I'm saying that Itachi had no idea where Kabuto was. If he stabbed the ground with the Totsuka it would simply go through liquid-Kabuto, it would not suck up all the water, it would have no effect.
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I have to give this one to Itachi. I know Suigetsu has the locational advantage, but Itachi has super powered Genjutsu and the Totsuka sword which are pretty much insta-KOs as well as a very high intellect. Suigetsu has not demonstrated any resistance to Genjutsu so saying he could break out of one of Itachi's genjutsus is pretty ridiculous. As far as the water body goes, I'm pretty sure the Totsuka sword would still be effective if it hit a part of his chakra manipulated water body, because it seals the soul/chakra.
Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.
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Originally Posted by Frost ninja View Post
Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?

Also even if Suigetsu is just water, he still has chakra. Just like if he were to go into a puddle Neji would be able to mess with his chakra by poking the puddle, I don't have much doubt that Itachi can seal a water giant. Plus in 414 4-5, we can see Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode when he makes giants or appears at all.

So to attack he is pretty much setting his own loss. That is, if Itachi doesn't simply walk out of the water and onto the island itself.
That jutsu has never been shown to work this way, this isn't your fanfiction. Two water form users can't "force the other out of the water", it isn't a mind control technique, it's Hydration Technique. What does Itachi do whilst inside the water assuming he's capable of something like that? And Suigetsu has better stamina than Itachi so I don't know what better chakra reserve you're talking about.

Neji wouldn't be able to hurt him, physical attacks are useless. I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea. Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode? this is incorrect, each time he's been hit with a physical attack it's been completely transformed into water, such as when Karin kicked his face, it turned into water. If Itachi tries to stab him with Totsuka he simply liquifies and appears somewhere else in the water as already been shown. the piercing and sealing effect are not synonymous.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:34 PM   #64
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
It shouldn't matter if physical attacks don't affect Suigetsu. The sword cannot pierce him, so it's useless.
Again, because the sword is spiritual, people are not unanimous on such thing.

Quote:
I'm saying that Itachi had no idea where Kabuto was. If he stabbed the ground with the Totsuka it would simply go through liquid-Kabuto, it would not suck up all the water, it would have no effect.
We don't know how Totsuka would affect liquidification. Regardless Kabuto's is not automatic.

But we do know this. Itachi is not attempting to use Totsuka because Kabuto is needed alive.

But again we don't know if Totsuka can affect him if Kabuto is already liquid.


Quote:
Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.
Its not just mere knowledge that makes it useless. Its the utilization of it.

Anyway full knowledge won't protect from the Finger Pointing if Itachi does decide to use it anyway.

But genjutsu is all he has other than the Totsuka thing which is debatable.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
]It's not like this was an option when Kabuto spread himself out in his water form, Itachi had no idea where he was.
They need him alive to end the ET
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #66
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

Quote:
Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Again, because the sword is spiritual, people are not unanimous on such thing.

We don't know how Totsuka would affect liquidification. Regardless Kabuto's is not automatic.

But we do know this. Itachi is not attempting to use Totsuka because Kabuto is needed alive.

But again we don't know if Totsuka can affect him if Kabuto is already liquid.

Its not just mere knowledge that makes it useless. Its the utilization of it.

Anyway full knowledge won't protect from the Finger Pointing if Itachi does decide to use it anyway.

But genjutsu is all he has other than the Totsuka thing which is debatable.
It shouldn't matter if it's spiritual, it still is a physical sword and to seal its target it has to pierce its target. This is a fact. Without the ability to pierce its target it has no way to seal it. Suigetsu can turn into liquid to avoid being pierced easily.

It's still required to look at his finger last I recall, and regardless he has Hydration technique for a reason. In that case Itachi still has no attacks capable of killing him, assuming he is caught(which might I remind you, he won't be).
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #67
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

suigetsu is weak, all itachi needs is tsukuyomi
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #68
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.
What exactly would Suigetsu do with that knowledge? He's a bumbling idiot
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:44 PM   #69
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
It shouldn't matter if it's spiritual, it still is a physical sword and to seal its target it has to pierce its target. This is a fact. Without the ability to pierce its target it has no way to seal it. Suigetsu can turn into liquid to avoid being pierced easily.
Thats also the other side of the aspect. Not everyone accepts this but we will see though.

I am just throwing things out there.

Quote:
It's still required to look at his finger last I recall, and regardless he has Hydration technique for a reason.
Itachi said he casts it with the finger, I don't recall looking at the finer being the requirement.

Its like casting genjutsu with handseals but ITachi bypasses it with the finger casting due to his sheer skill with it.

Quote:
In that case Itachi still has no attacks capable of killing him, assuming he is caught(which might I remind you, he won't be).
WHich is why I mentioned on the chance he did, Tsukiyomi.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:45 PM   #70
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #71
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't think Susano'o would have such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #72
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by vermillion rage 7 View Post
suigetsu is weak, all itachi needs is tsukuyomi
Useless.
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Originally Posted by MinatoXNaruto View Post
What exactly would Suigetsu do with that knowledge? He's a bumbling idiot
Not look into Itachi's eyes or fall into any of his genjutsu.

I would ask you to support Suigetsu's "idiocy" however that's expected to go without an answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Thats also the other side of the aspect. Not everyone accepts this but we will see though.

I am just throwing things out there.

Itachi said he casts it with the finger, I don't recall looking at the finer being the requirement.

Its like casting genjutsu with handseals but ITachi bypasses it with the finger casting due to his sheer skill with it.

WHich is why I mentioned on the chance he did, Tsukiyomi.
I'm confident like the rest of Itachi's genjutsu it required for the victim to look at his finger. During Naruto's flashback of realization if you will, he was specifically shown staring at his finger and recalling Itachi using said genjutsu.

I think if all he had to do was point his finger and hit anyone he wanted without them specifically seeing it themselves that defeats the purpose, especially given conditions.

Again though, Suigetsu has knowledge and also has Sasuke, a Mangekyou Sharingan user as his teammate. He should have enough knowledge and sense to deal with genjutsu--and be ready for this one if anything, he has full knowledge on how it works regardless of how we see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't Susano'o has such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below.
How is it out of character? What is Suigetsu going to do with as little screentime as he has? Breathing is out of character. It's confirmed fact that below is its weakness, and Suigetsu has full knowledge. That answers that.
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:58 PM   #73
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Yellow Flash View Post
This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't think Susano'o would have such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below.
How is it OOC for Suigetsu to take advantage of his location especially against someone as powerful as Itachi. Even without giving him full knowledge he would still know who Itachi is and that Itachi can mess him up. So why not try to attack him right away. Even when he first met Sasuke he threatened him as soon as he broke his tank.

Every jutsu has a weakness, Itachi said so himself ;)
There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #74
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like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
Yea ok, like Itachi wouldn't see Suigetsu's chakra with his sharingan.

Quote:
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Not look into Itachi's eyes or fall into any of his genjutsu.

I would ask you to support Suigetsu's "idiocy" however that's expected to go without an answer.
He doesn't need to look into his eyes. He's already in one

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There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.
Madara doesn't have Yata Mirror.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:06 PM   #75
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Kuromaki View Post
How is it OOC for Suigetsu to take advantage of his location especially against someone as powerful as Itachi. Even without giving him full knowledge he would still know who Itachi is and that Itachi can mess him up.
That's exactly why it's out of character. When has Suigetsu ever done that? Against Kirabi he was given a huge water source, but only used it as a last resort.
Quote:
So why not try to attack him right away. Even when he first met Sasuke he threatened him as soon as he broke his tank.
Have a touch guy act all you want, Sasuke would defeat Suigetsu in a fight.
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Every jutsu has a weakness, Itachi said so himself
There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.
True, but even so, you think someone who has mastered the technique isn't aware of this weakness? I'm sure he has countermeasures for when attacked there. Itachi isn't revered as a genius for nothing.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:15 PM   #76
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Yea ok, like Itachi wouldn't see Suigetsu's chakra with his sharingan.

Madara doesn't have Yata Mirror.
Suigetsu's chakra would likely be scattered in the water so good luck with that. And even if he did see it, what is he going to do?

When has the yata mirror appeared under itachi? It hasn't. Susanoo has its weaknesses too, it is not a perfect jutsu and Itachi admitted this himself.
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That's exactly why it's out of character. When has Suigetsu ever done that? Against Kirabi he was given a huge water source, but only used it as a last resort.

Have a touch guy act all you want, Sasuke would defeat Suigetsu in a fight.

True, but even so, you think someone who has mastered the technique isn't aware of this weakness? I'm sure he has countermeasures for when attacked there. Itachi isn't revered as a genius for nothing.
It wasn't a last resort because they weren't fighting in the water to begin with, it's not until later that they reached the water that Suigetsu decided to use the lake.

This isn't a matter of whether he can beat Sasuke in a fight. I was providing proof on Suigetsu's eagerness to start a fight.

Countermeasures like what?
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #77
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Suigetsu's chakra would likely be scattered in the water so good luck with that. And even if he did see it, what is he going to do?

When has the yata mirror appeared under itachi? It hasn't. Susanoo has its weaknesses too, it is not a perfect jutsu and Itachi admitted this himself.
Itachi's Susanoo weakness would most likely be chakra drainage, not a freakin opening below him
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:21 PM   #78
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
This only works, if Itachi is standing on the Water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaia View Post

I'm confident like the rest of Itachi's genjutsu it required for the victim to look at his finger. During Naruto's flashback of realization if you will, he was specifically shown staring at his finger and recalling Itachi using said genjutsu.
You sure that is not anime only? Plus there is no indication or any other than just I must look at the finger.

All it was just casting through the finger.

Quote:
I think if all he had to do was point his finger and hit anyone he wanted without them specifically seeing it themselves that defeats the purpose, especially given conditions.
Sharingan part makes sense since its the hypnotic eye but the finger?

What given conditions? Itachi only used it against Naruto back then.
He had no reason to use it to other scenarios.

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Again though, Suigetsu has knowledge and also has Sasuke, a Mangekyou Sharingan user as his teammate. He should have enough knowledge and sense to deal with genjutsu--and be ready for this one if anything, he has full knowledge on how it works regardless of how we see it.
Perhaps he does although Suigetsu's genjutsu breaking feats are lacking on panel.

However on the chance he is caught with Tsukiyomi then ITachi arguably wins but getting to that part is another story.

Although considering how intelligent ITachi is or how Kishimoto wants to portray him as such, who knows he could always trick Suigetsu.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:21 PM   #79
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

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Originally Posted by Kuromaki View Post
It wasn't a last resort because they weren't fighting in the water to begin with, it's not until later that they reached the water that Suigetsu decided to use the lake.
It was most definitely a last resort. He used it so Taka could escape.
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This isn't a matter of whether he can beat Sasuke in a fight. I was providing proof on Suigetsu's eagerness to start a fight.
And what does this prove? Naruto has the same characteristic, so what's your point?
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Countermeasures like what?
Like anything to protect himself...?

And I'm not a debater anymore, so I won't reply to the next post. It's nothing personal, I just resent debating now.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:35 PM   #80
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Default Re: Suigetsu vs. Itachi

Just because Suigetsu has knowledge that Itachi uses Genjutsu doesn't mean that he can avoid it or break out of it. Look at Naruto for instance, he's been put in a Genjutsu by Itachi almost every time he meets him even though he knows he has Genjutsu and not to look into his eyes. And as I said before, according to what has been shown in the manga, there is no way Suigetsu could break out of one of Itachi's genjutsus. The only ones who have done this are Kurenai and Sasuke, a Genjutsu specialist and a fellow Sharingan user.
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