Tier Debate: Kisame vs. SM Jiraiya

[e710]

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

Well the point of SM is to equalize the nature energy you draw in at set proportions. You have to equalize spiritual, physical and nature energy for it to work. Let's use numbers to make it easier. Let's assume that for Sage jutsu to work, it has to be equal in all aspects. In that case, suppose a nature-enhanced jutsu needs 20 phy., 20 spiritual and 20 natural energy (as if this was an RPG), and Samehada/Kisame has 100 phy and 100 spiritual (doesnt have natural energy). When it absorbs the katon, it will be 120 phy, 120 spiritual and 20 natural.

According to the "laws" of Senjutsu, nothing will happen since not enough natural energy is applied. Preta path didn't turn to stone when it absorbed SM itself because it was balanced, then Naruto decided to give in a lot of natural energy to tip off the scales and turn Preta into stone. So the only real way I see it turning into stone would be if he grabs onto Jiraiya and tries sucking out its chakra in a grapple.

To me it seemed like Naruto was just helplessly getting his sage chakra taken.

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain

First, there's the whole "Kisame needs to absorb a ton of chakra in order to use Water Dome" argument. If someone wants to expand on that, then be my guest. I'm not too fond of it though.

Highly doubt it. Kisame had the most renowned chakra of any villain. None of his chakra absorbing was really necessary, just a major downside to anyone fighting him. Even the 30% version was able to create a fairly large water source.

Regardless, Swamp is an Earth jutsu, which is strong against Water. Considering a 30% Jiraiya was able to make a Swamp big and deep enough to confine Orochimaru's large Snake summonings, I'm pretty sure a Sage-infused Swamp would be enough to restrain the Dome from moving.

But if he's already in the dome, how is he going to put a swamp UNDER the dome? Not to mention, one large enough to absorb a Water Dome. You have to realize, the Dome is a barrier first and foremost. It's not something that's just going to sneak into a swamp.

Apparently, one doesn't swim in order to move around in the dome. It appears that both Killer B and Kisame simply move without propelling themselves. I see it no different than "Shinobi jumping" from place to place, similar to establishing chakra at one's feet. If that's the case, then Jiraiya can simply "jump" until he's out of the immovable dome.

They may not swim, but Kisame still has the major advantage underwater. He can breathe, he can fuse with Samehada and completely overwhelm Jiraiya, or he can summon sharks INSIDE the dome, hindering Jiraiya's ability to escape. The only reason Killer Bee was able to escape that Dome at all was due to his ink blast that hindered Kisame's view.

SM Jiraiya showed better speed feats than V2 Killer B, who Kisame failed to keep up with, both on dry land and in the Dome. In that case, Kisame won't be able to stop Jiraiya from leaving the Dome or blitzing.

You keep saying this, but I don't see where he showed better speed feats than V2 KB. You forget the whole scene with him matching A's speed. SM Jiraiya's best feat is blitzing one of the Paths.

Samehada can't absorb any of Jiraiya's Sage Energy unless it wants to turn into a Frog Statue. The same goes for elemental jutsu as shown with Itachi's Fireball. That means jutsu like Goemon or Toad Oil Flame Bullet won't be stopped.

Kisame can't absorb Jiraiya's chakra or jutsu, can't keep up with him, and can't stop him from escaping the Dome.

This is definitely the best argument. But I think the Jutsus and the chakra itself work completely differently. Like if Samehada absorbed directly from Jiraiya's body for a while, like he did against Bee, it would make sense that it would petrify.

But the Jutsu's themselves are still absorbed. How many Rasenshurikens did Preta Path absorb of Naruto's, without turning into stone? Jiraiya's strongest attacks are Toad Oil Flame and Giant Rasengan, neither of which are enough to counter Giant Shark Missile. Both will be completely absorbed and Jiraiya will be hit by the attack dead-on. If he manages to survive it, Ma & Pa will not. Then he's out of Sage Chakra, and back in base, and the fight is over.

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Since when is sagemode limitless? Jiraiya can last longer because of ma and pa is drawing it in for him. They get killed that is gameover. Good luck them maintaing a steady flow with thousands of chakra sharks bombarding them moving at a enough speed to rival gated Gai's punches. Jiraiya is fast but he is not that fast. Atleast not in outputting attacks that fast.

Then don't let Kisame get him in the water. Jiraiya would end up getting all around blitzed before making a hand seal to counter. His movements will be hindered massively in the water. Meanwhile Kisame gets faster.

I thought that ma & pa gave him a constant flow of energy,

If they were killed that is a different issue.

[PuffPuffPanda]

Yeah, Dotons will be a problem for Kisame. Especially Yomi Numa, which I believe can counter the Water Dome if a drugged base Jiraiya could restrict the movements of two large snakes.

Also, Samehada is not going to enjoy eating too much Sage chakra and turning into a frog due to the imbalance of energy types.

Kisame was in big trouble in part 1 and he conceded his hype to that of a higher order of the Sannin.

Jiraiya would destroy him with mid-difficulty.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

I thought that ma & pa gave him a constant flow of energy,

If they were killed that is a different issue.

That is true. But them surviving a barrage of Kisame attacks is a pretty hard scenario. Kisame is really underrated that attack against Gai with the sharks was massive and fast. What exactly does Jiraiya have that can defend quickly from massive aoe like that?

[Shikamaru Nara]

Originally Posted by SchnarfTacular

I know you're new here so I'll fill you in on BattleGround debates. Provide reasoning for your answer or you will get trolled.

yuuuuuup.

Anyway can't Jiraiya just SotU him?

:trollya

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Highly doubt it. Kisame had the most renowned chakra of any villain. None of his chakra absorbing was really necessary, just a major downside to anyone fighting him. Even the 30% version was able to create a fairly large water source.

I was not supporting that theory, only mentioning it as I've seen it before. I agree with most of what you've said.

But if he's already in the dome, how is he going to put a swamp UNDER the dome? Not to mention, one large enough to absorb a Water Dome. You have to realize, the Dome is a barrier first and foremost. It's not something that's just going to sneak into a swamp.

Distance is at 50m. No way Jiraiya gets stuck in it without doing anything. Watching a giant tidal wave and standing still doing nothing from 50m away doesn't equate.

Regardless, even if Jiraiya were to get caught in it, what's wrong with using Swamp under the Dome? The Dome is on the surface of the ground. Swamp changes that surface into a bottomless pit of mud. That's how the jutsu works. Sage Energy amplifies jutsu to a remarkable extent. A 30% Jiraiya used a HUGE Swamp. Seriously, HUGE. Now add 70% more for a fully healthy Jiraiya and then add Sage Energy, it shouldn't be that hard.

Not sure what you mean by barrier. It's just a ball of Water jutsu, which is weak against Earth jutsu. Jiraiya's usage of Swamp appears instantaneously under the victim. It's not a trap. He can just set it to appear under the Dome.

They may not swim, but Kisame still has the major advantage underwater. He can breathe, he can fuse with Samehada and completely overwhelm Jiraiya, or he can summon sharks INSIDE the dome, hindering Jiraiya's ability to escape. The only reason Killer Bee was able to escape that Dome at all was due to his ink blast that hindered Kisame's view.

Like I said, if Jiraiya were to be caught in the Dome, he can just run away. Killer B did so and Kisame couldn't catch him. Kisame had to use a diversion so that Killer B would go to him. Jiraiya would simply just run out of the immovable Dome.

You keep saying this, but I don't see where he showed better speed feats than V2 KB. You forget the whole scene with him matching A's speed. SM Jiraiya's best feat is blitzing one of the Paths.

V2 Killer B vs. ET Nagato. This Nagato was the same emaciated one that Jiraiya fought, only through the Paths. Nagato was not at full health or in his prime.

As shown on numerous occasions, the Preta Path's barrier absorbs jutsu on contact, not the body itself. If Nagato is able to fully react to the attack, the barrier absorbs the contact (i.e. Rasenshuriken). However, if Nagato were to be "blitzed", his body would get hit by the attack, though the jutsu will still be absorbed as the barrier is then erected (Odama Rasengan). Thus, if Nagato is able to fully react, the barrier absorbs all contact and jutsu. If Nagato gets "blitzed", the body gets hit.

V2 Killer B was able to "blitz" Nagato from about 1m away, maybe not even. His Lariat made physical contact with the body.
From a good 30-40m away, Jiraiya was able to "blitz" Nagato. His Odama Rasengan made physical contact with the body. If Nagato were able to adequately react, none of those attacks should've made bodily contact as seen with Rasenshuriken.

Better speed feat.

But the Jutsu's themselves are still absorbed. How many Rasenshurikens did Preta Path absorb of Naruto's, without turning into stone? Jiraiya's strongest attacks are Toad Oil Flame and Giant Rasengan, neither of which are enough to counter Giant Shark Missile. Both will be completely absorbed and Jiraiya will be hit by the attack dead-on. If he manages to survive it, Ma & Pa will not. Then he's out of Sage Chakra, and back in base, and the fight is over.

It's clear that Nagato's and Samehada's absorbing abilities are different. Nagaot's is a jutsu that absorbs other jutsu/chakra, while Samehada evidently "eats" chakra. Samehada has never shown the ability to absorb jutsu, only chakra.

As for Giant Shark Missile, Kisame needs to be surrounded by a massive amount of water. In this situation, Kisame's best bet would be to be inside his Dome. The size of the missile itself isn't bigger than a Boss summoning. Gameken with his shield should suffice if Jiraiya can't get out of the way.

[BrifleX]

SO WHATS UP EVERYONE!
this is my first ever post and i LOVE naruto i read the manga as soon as it comes out, but in this debate.....i have to go with kisame, he has the power of kyubii (if i spelled right sorry) jiraiya was really good and all but im pretty sure he said he could take no kyubii, plus besides the fact that kisame is so powerful, he has the samehada (again correct me if i spelled wrong).although i like jiraiya i like kisame better. and it just seems to me, one of them will win by a landslide and in my opinion its kisame

oh and also think of it this way......Toad Vs. Sharks haha

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

That is true. But them surviving a barrage of Kisame attacks is a pretty hard scenario. Kisame is really underrated that attack against Gai with the sharks was massive and fast. What exactly does Jiraiya have that can defend quickly from massive aoe like that?

Jiraiya can use a toad to shield him or help him escape, or Dark Swamp on Kisame if he's quick enough. Idk i was just opening up possibilities.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

Jiraiya can use a toad to shield him or help him escape, or Dark Swamp on Kisame if he's quick enough. Idk i was just opening up possibilities.

My main arguement is Kisame is underated in speed. Especially nursing speed. I mean how there are only a few techniques that can rival his and gai's attacks in speed.

[megabbaut]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Lol what?

I feel like that would just hurt him too, if it was even possible. Which it's not. The water pressure from a dome that size is much different from a water balloon....As well as like 10,000,000x more water.

Sorry for the bump, but I just feel like the huge rasengan would absorb the water and turn it into like a water style rasengan.