Tier Debate: Kisame vs. SM Jiraiya

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

BG Defaults

Kisame gets Samehada and I'm inferring that Jiraiya starts with Ma and Pa.

[TheBlackChidori]

If it's a tier debate he definitely starts out with Sage Mode on.

That said, I need to know what Jiraiya can do against Water Dome.

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

First, there's the whole "Kisame needs to absorb a ton of chakra in order to use Water Dome" argument. If someone wants to expand on that, then be my guest. I'm not too fond of it though.

Regardless, Swamp is an Earth jutsu, which is strong against Water. Considering a 30% Jiraiya was able to make a Swamp big and deep enough to confine Orochimaru's large Snake summonings, I'm pretty sure a Sage-infused Swamp would be enough to restrain the Dome from moving.

Apparently, one doesn't swim in order to move around in the dome. It appears that both Killer B and Kisame simply move without propelling themselves. I see it no different than "Shinobi jumping" from place to place, similar to establishing chakra at one's feet. If that's the case, then Jiraiya can simply "jump" until he's out of the immovable dome.

SM Jiraiya showed better speed feats than V2 Killer B, who Kisame failed to keep up with, both on dry land and in the Dome. In that case, Kisame won't be able to stop Jiraiya from leaving the Dome or blitzing.

Samehada can't absorb any of Jiraiya's Sage Energy unless it wants to turn into a Frog Statue. The same goes for elemental jutsu as shown with Itachi's Fireball. That means jutsu like Goemon or Toad Oil Flame Bullet won't be stopped.

Kisame can't absorb Jiraiya's chakra or jutsu, can't keep up with him, and can't stop him from escaping the Dome.

[Super Sanin 3]

Samehada should be able to absorb some jutsu considering the natural energy is already at proportional levels but it will be limited by things such as heat, etc.

SM Jiraiya's real bane could be Giant Water Shark Bullet (as I know somebody will expand on that)

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain

First, there's the whole "Kisame needs to absorb a ton of chakra in order to use Water Dome" argument. If someone wants to expand on that, then be my guest. I'm not too fond of it though.

I al;ways thought that argument was dumb. Kisame used who knows how much chakra to restore himself after getting heavily injured by Bee, so he could have easily used his own chakra to make the dome. He is also known as the tailed beast without a tail because of his chakra levels alone. If he needed to absorb someone else's chakra before being able to use his ultimate move, then there would be no point in having it. Furthermore, Kisame showed no signs of being chakra exhausted after using the move, far as I remember.

In any case, Kisame would have to pull out his best moves to have the chance to beat Sage Jiraiya.

[Sasuke8642]

sage mode jiraiya

[Schnarf]

Originally Posted by Sasuke8642

sage mode jiraiya

I know you're new here so I'll fill you in on BattleGround debates. Provide reasoning for your answer or you will get trolled.

[megabbaut]

He can use a massive Rasengan to cancel out a water dome like when he bursted a water ballon with a regular Rasengan.

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by megabbaut

He can use a massive Rasengan to cancel out a water dome like when he bursted a water ballon with a regular Rasengan.

Lol what?

I feel like that would just hurt him too, if it was even possible. Which it's not. The water pressure from a dome that size is much different from a water balloon....As well as like 10,000,000x more water.

[Devils Lawyer]

Pretty sure Kisame is the more dominate fighter. First their is his speed. Every bit on par with a base Bee. Then he matched Gai attacks blow for blow in speed and power. Then lets mention the fact that Jiraiya's rasengan is useless. If samehada can absorb the hostile energy of a beast it can absorb sage energy. Then their is finally Kisame's waterdome which pretty much trolls a good 75% of Narutoverse in these battles.

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Pretty sure Kisame is the more dominate fighter. First their is his speed. Every bit on par with a base Bee. Then he matched Gai attacks blow for blow in speed and power. Then lets mention the fact that Jiraiya's rasengan is useless. If samehada can absorb the hostile energy of a beast it can absorb sage energy. Then their is finally Kisame's waterdome which pretty much trolls a good 75% of Narutoverse in these battles.

Kisame got blitzed by V2 Killer B. SM Jiraiya showed better speed feats than V2 Killer B.

Absorbing Tailed Beast chakra isn't that special. Nagato was able to do it too.
However, Sage Energy is completely different. Thought Kishi made that clear enough.
Nagato tried absorbing Sage Energy and the Path turned into stone.
If Samehada does the same, the outcome will also be the same.

I already said how Jiraiya could be able to bypass the Dome.

[e710]

Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain

Kisame got blitzed by V2 Killer B. SM Jiraiya showed better speed feats than V2 Killer B.

Absorbing Tailed Beast chakra isn't that special. Nagato was able to do it too.
However, Sage Energy is completely different. Thought Kishi made that clear enough.
Nagato tried absorbing Sage Energy and the Path turned into stone.
If Samehada does the same, the outcome will also be the same.

I already said how Jiraiya could be able to bypass the Dome.

Is it possible for Jiraiya to stop Kisame from making water dome? He can do it quickly but not right away. What if Jiraiya just charges Kisame while he is forming hand seals?

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by NagatoGod_of_Pain

Kisame got blitzed by V2 Killer B. SM Jiraiya showed better speed feats than V2 Killer B.

Absorbing Tailed Beast chakra isn't that special. Nagato was able to do it too.
However, Sage Energy is completely different. Thought Kishi made that clear enough.
Nagato tried absorbing Sage Energy and the Path turned into stone.
If Samehada does the same, the outcome will also be the same.

I already said how Jiraiya could be able to bypass the Dome.

Since when Killer Bee has been in sync with A speed constantly. Thus proven by him trolling Sasuke. Then once again you add on the attack speed he was creating those sharks against Gai. Kisame has a way better showing against highspeed characters.

No proof either way with Samehada. But the fact remains it can absorb turning to stone would only be a small burden. Jiraiya would be extremely weakened. He has an okay size of chakra but nowhere near a beast level. If someone like Bee can get drained easily Jiraiya has little to no chance.

Waterdome is one of the several water attacks Kisame can do. All of which are on a massive scale. Jiraiya defending it after get his energy drained good luck with that.

[e710]

Jiraiya wouldn't get his energy drained he is superior in taijutsu to Kisame and Ma and Pa are helping him. If Kisame gets stalled from using water dome Jiraiya burns his ass and with no water source near by Kisame doesn't have anything to counter with. If Kisame stalls Jiraiya to get up water dome he has ways to counter it. He can summon toads to hide into if he needs to retreat and he can summon toads to fight Kisame. Also when Naruto got his Sage Chakra absorbed he had used FRS so it wasn't at full strength. Also if the Samehada does absorb all of Jiraiya's Sage Chakra Kisame will be weaponless and he now lost most of his chakra reserves and now can't move that quickly underwater.

[Kuromaki]

Isn't sage energy limitless? I mean, its from nature. In which case Samehada would probably be some frog thing and Jiraiya would still be a sage.

[Devils Lawyer]

Since when is sagemode limitless? Jiraiya can last longer because of ma and pa is drawing it in for him. They get killed that is gameover. Good luck them maintaing a steady flow with thousands of chakra sharks bombarding them moving at a enough speed to rival gated Gai's punches. Jiraiya is fast but he is not that fast. Atleast not in outputting attacks that fast.

Then don't let Kisame get him in the water. Jiraiya would end up getting all around blitzed before making a hand seal to counter. His movements will be hindered massively in the water. Meanwhile Kisame gets faster.

[TOKi04]

No one will win. they' both dead!

[Mauve]

Jiraiya can have his little frog suck both of them in a waterless barrier like he did with Animal Path. He can summon his giant frogs, not to mention Kisame is intimidated by Jiraiya.

[Kakashi11]

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

Isn't sage energy limitless? I mean, its from nature. In which case Samehada would probably be some frog thing and Jiraiya would still be a sage.

It is a living thing so it probally would turn to stone
as we saw when if you absorb SM chakra you turn to a stone toad

then it is just SM Jiraiya vs Kisame with no samaehada

[Super Sanin 3]

Well the point of SM is to equalize the nature energy you draw in at set proportions. You have to equalize spiritual, physical and nature energy for it to work. Let's use numbers to make it easier. Let's assume that for Sage jutsu to work, it has to be equal in all aspects. In that case, suppose a nature-enhanced jutsu needs 20 phy., 20 spiritual and 20 natural energy (as if this was an RPG), and Samehada/Kisame has 100 phy and 100 spiritual (doesnt have natural energy). When it absorbs the katon, it will be 120 phy, 120 spiritual and 20 natural.

According to the "laws" of Senjutsu, nothing will happen since not enough natural energy is applied. Preta path didn't turn to stone when it absorbed SM itself because it was balanced, then Naruto decided to give in a lot of natural energy to tip off the scales and turn Preta into stone. So the only real way I see it turning into stone would be if he grabs onto Jiraiya and tries sucking out its chakra in a grapple.