Spoiler Naruto vs. Sasuke Without Hax Powers

[Pyro]

Recently I've been wondering; if Naruto didn't have any fox powers, and Sasuke didn't have any sharingan powers, who would win in a fight? I would say Naruto, because he still has sage mode.

[megabbaut]

Sasuke gets raped horribly.

He relies on his Sharingan for every single thing when it comes to a fight.

[SilentBlade]

we have to consider, with the kyuubi( up to now) it has been repressing a massive amount of Naruto's actual power...therefore without the fox there, and with the full chakra flow Naruto would be exceptional more powerful than he has been through most of the series!

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by SilentBlade

we have to consider, with the kyuubi( up to now) it has been repressing a massive amount of Naruto's actual power...therefore without the fox there, and with the full chakra flow Naruto would be exceptional more powerful than he has been through most of the series!

Actually, I don't think that's true. The reason Naruto has so much chakra is because Minato made the seal to let a little of the Kurama's chakra into Naruto to mix with his own.

[Maruko]

Naruto wins. Sasuke loves his Sharingan too much! Look at Kakashi,he has it too but he trains and fights without it,he doesn't spam it. I know it drains him but he's haxed even without it. Sasuke should fight without kekkei genkai,at least on battle,then he'll see how tough it is to fight someone without storm god as backup!

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Maruko

Naruto wins. Sasuke loves his Sharingan too much! Look at Kakashi,he has it too but he trains and fights without it,he doesn't spam it. I know it drains him but he's haxed even without it. Sasuke should fight without kekkei genkai,at least on battle,then he'll see how tough it is to fight someone without storm god as backup!

Yeah, it's been a very long time since I've seen Sasuke fight without the sharingan.... Actually, when has he ever fought a real fight without it?

[Haku Uchiha]

Originally Posted by Pyro

Actually, I don't think that's true. The reason Naruto has so much chakra is because Minato made the seal to let a little of the Kurama's chakra into Naruto to mix with his own.

actually kakashi said that without Naruto having to use his own chakra to suppress the 9-tails it would be 10X greater than his or was that someone else either way Jiraiya or Kakashi one of them said that if Naruto didn't have some of his chakra to suppress kurama it would be alot stronger and massive keep in mind that in order to do sage mode you have to have massive chakra like Jiraiya, Naruto has a large amount of chakra too even without the fox when he first did the Kage bushion he made 1000s of clones with his chakra alone

[ILIKEPIE]

Originally Posted by Pyro

Yeah, it's been a very long time since I've seen Sasuke fight without the sharingan.... Actually, when has he ever fought a real fight without it?

that is easy that was before he unlocked his sharingan so ever fight before he unlocked it against Haku

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by Haku Uchiha

actually kakashi said that without Naruto having to use his own chakra to suppress the 9-tails it would be 10X greater than his or was that someone else either way Jiraiya or Kakashi one of them said that if Naruto didn't have some of his chakra to suppress kurama it would be alot stronger and massive keep in mind that in order to do sage mode you have to have massive chakra like Jiraiya, Naruto has a large amount of chakra too even without the fox when he first did the Kage bushion he made 1000s of clones with his chakra alone

I think you misunderstand what Pyro is saying. Minato made the seal so that the fox's chakra would slowly leak into and merge with Naruto's Chakra. There by making Naruto's potential chakra level far greater than it ever could have been naturally.

So essentially, you're right in that the current Naruto would have a much bigger chakra reserve if he weren't suppressing the fox. This much has been stated. Problem is, if not for the fox's chakra molding into naruto's all this time, that potential extra chakra wouldn't exist anyway.

If Naruto had never became the fox's Jinchuuriki, his chakra would be nowhere near what it is right now. Mind you it would still be far above average due to naruto's family genetics

[kalmeast]

^ hmmm...wait, r u sayin Naruto's original mass of chakra is due to the fact that kuubi's chakra has been leakin to him all along? I don remember it stated anywhere tho'... I believe Naruto's natural chakra is proportional to Jiraiya's that why he was able to learn sage mode, and that capability of learning SM has nothin to do wit Kuubi chakra at all...OR i'm i wrong?


@OP...besides naruto having more chakra and endurance and nvr giving up spirit, Naruto is a "smarter" fighter than Sasuke.

[SilentBlade]

you are right Kal, If i recall correctly during the chakra nature training Kakashi states that if Naruto didn't have to use so much chakra to suppress the Kyuubi he would have somthing like 1000x chakra compared to himself.

Essentially speaking, we find through the series (even through Yamato) that Naruto has an extremely large chakra pool that is being hindered (not helped) by the Kyuubi.

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by Haku Uchiha

actually kakashi said that without Naruto having to use his own chakra to suppress the 9-tails it would be 10X greater than his or was that someone else either way Jiraiya or Kakashi one of them said that if Naruto didn't have some of his chakra to suppress kurama it would be alot stronger and massive keep in mind that in order to do sage mode you have to have massive chakra like Jiraiya, Naruto has a large amount of chakra too even without the fox when he first did the Kage bushion he made 1000s of clones with his chakra alone

It was Kakashi, and I think what he meant was that if Naruto stopped suppressing the 9 tails chakra, he would have all the 9 tails' chakra. Not sure though, you may be right.

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

^ hmmm...wait, r u sayin Naruto's original mass of chakra is due to the fact that kuubi's chakra has been leakin to him all along? I don remember it stated anywhere tho'... I believe Naruto's natural chakra is proportional to Jiraiya's that why he was able to learn sage mode, and that capability of learning SM has nothin to do wit Kuubi chakra at all...OR i'm i wrong?


@OP...besides naruto having more chakra and endurance and nvr giving up spirit, Naruto is a "smarter" fighter than Sasuke.

Yeah. The problem is that Sasuke has better taijutsu skills (actually, I wonder how good they would be without his sharingan...), and a larger pool of jutsu. Still if Naruto is able to use SM he would win.

[MinatoXNaruto]

Originally Posted by Haku Uchiha

actually kakashi said that without Naruto having to use his own chakra to suppress the 9-tails it would be 10X greater than his or was that someone else either way Jiraiya or Kakashi one of them said that if Naruto didn't have some of his chakra to suppress kurama it would be alot stronger and massive keep in mind that in order to do sage mode you have to have massive chakra like Jiraiya, Naruto has a large amount of chakra too even without the fox when he first did the Kage bushion he made 1000s of clones with his chakra alone

No. He said that if he didn't have the kyuubi in him then he would be able to control his chakra better

[EvL j3st3r]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

^ hmmm...wait, r u sayin Naruto's original mass of chakra is due to the fact that kuubi's chakra has been leakin to him all along? I don remember it stated anywhere tho'... I believe Naruto's natural chakra is proportional to Jiraiya's that why he was able to learn sage mode, and that capability of learning SM has nothin to do wit Kuubi chakra at all...OR i'm i wrong?


@OP...besides naruto having more chakra and endurance and nvr giving up spirit, Naruto is a "smarter" fighter than Sasuke.

Well, looking back I have to admit that it's not stated so directly as I had thought. My bad. But in ch. 91, Jaraiya does inform us that Minato set the seal in a manner that allows some of the fox's chakra to leak through and combine with Naruto's chakra. So obviously that does account for some portion of Naruto's massive chakra. How much is an unanswered question I suppose, so maybe I should take back my statement that it would be "nowhere near" what it is now if he didn't have the fox. But it would certainly be less to some extent or another.

Now as I've said, Naruto would still have an awesome chakra supply if he had never harbored the fox. I'm not denying that. His bloodline alone warrants him to beyond normal in that category.

@silentblade..........I too am aware of what Kakashi said. Pretty sure it was 100x tho (anime reference). I'm not questioning that in itself. I'm saying that the fox may be responsible for a great part of that chakra that's actually being used to supress him bc, as stated above, the 9 tails chakra is constantly leaking through the seal and merging with Naruto's chakra supply.

So to summarize, it's possible that the chakra we're saying is off limits bc of the fox may only exist in the first place bc of the fox.

[Haku Uchiha]

well if Naruto can use SM and Sasuke can't use sharingan then Naruto would win name one fight that if sasuke didn't use he would still win go on take your time

[SilentBlade]

lets consider this, the bloodline. Uzumaki and the actual powers there in. We look at Yamato after Naruto accidentally attacks Sakura in 9 tails mode. Essentially I think what comes out is that it takes a lot of chakra to suppress the 9-tails chakra so that the gate doesn't crack open and Naruto loses control. We see even with the gate not open and just leaking in that the fox chakra can greatly influence Naruto (even through the pain arc).

Then I would argue that its not the kyuubi at all being responsible for Naruto's power, in fact I would make the opposite argument. Looking at the battle in the current situation, we see that there is an observation that Naruto can push harder than he typically has because his chakra isn't being tied up with the Kyuubi either, its only these last couple chapters that the Kyuubi lends or combines with Naruto.

[e710]

Naruto has gotten faster and stronger while Sasuke has kept relying on MS powers. FRS I don't see Sasuke avoiding it or blocking it.

[kalmeast]

I see...well, the easier way i understand it is this....

Naruto gets kuubi chakra in TWO WAYS...
- when he's extremely angry or agitated, that hate gives the fox the upperhand to leak his chakra into Naruto (eg...Naruto vs Deidara, Naruto vs Orochimaru, Naruto vs Pain, naruto vs Haku)
- The other way is when Naruto is completely outta chakra then he gets raw kuubi chakra as jiraiya said that he had to completely use up his own first...(eg. naruto vs Neji, Naruto vs Gaara, in all these instances the chakra wasn't triggered by agitation/anger but emptiness of his own chakra...)

perhaps this should clear things up making both arguments right...

[SilentBlade]

its not empty so much as in a life threatening situation. And it inevitably hurts him in the end. I don't know, if my understanding is correct the fox has been a hinder more than a help when it came to how much power Naruto could use.

If i recall properly, Kushina was chosen because the Uzumaki had a special type of chakra. We combine that with the KG we see that has gone with the Uzumaki (without the Kyuubi). Atleast that is where I draw my conclusion.