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Old 01-04-2012, 02:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

wait huh? Chapter 430 page 2.. Dude you just said "Gamaken is not a boss toad" yet hes one of the three boss toads. In fact Jiraiya did summon each and every 1 of those boss toads on screen.

Boss summon doesnt mean "hachibi level" anyway its simply a title & it doesnt make anything who isnt "boss summon" irrelevant. Even if you dont call Gamaken a boss summon(which he is as seen on the page I showed you, you agreed yourself) as its just a made up title, it doesnt change the fact hes Gamabuntas size and Jiraiya summoned him & totally not irrelevant.

Also, Shima summoned all 3 of those boss summons @ once let alone at all it doesnt make her irrelevant. Pa also isnt irrelevant on account of cutting through pipes & another huge summon like butter, and their combined frog song. Totally not irrelevant actually Ma and Pa are older and more powerful than any other toad in the family including the boss toads.

You know, to add signing a contract means you can summon any toad in the contract as well even if you're not convinced, despite the fact Jiraiya already did on screen summon Gamaken, Gamahiro and Gamabunta who are all the same size as shown at the link above, and the fact you admitted they were boss toads!

So yes..Jiraiya already summoned 3 boss toads and for reference chapter 124 page 11 for gamahiro. Jiraiya vs Pain he summoned Gamaken and he summoned Gamabunta on the 3-way deadlock. And again you said the frogs summoned @ Naruto vs Pain were the only boss toads, each 3 locations youll see Jiraiya summon each of those toads. Not too mention summoning Shima who was the one to summon the toads to Naruto vs Pain, so even if he couldnt which I gave the exact pages and you admitted yourself, shima can do it too.

Anyway after directly contradicting yourself how does Hachibi move when theres 3 boss toads stabbing at him with swords, if he turns hell just run into a boss summon who has lethal weapons face to face..?
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

Hachibi uses the tornado spin the toads get knocked down ,BFR'd or even killed. Then uses TBB(a bijuu bomb only goes in one direction but the resulting detonation is omnidirectional and goes for kilometers).
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

All hes doing is spinning around. Against monsters of his size its not as effective as they can just jump or at least move etc. & if they do that or even if they dont, he'll be bothered by the water bullets along with their weapons already.

And thats just the boss summons I mean Im not talking about Jiraiya himself but Im waiting on heroeking mainly.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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All hes doing is spinning around. Against monsters of his size its not as effective as they can just jump or at least move etc. & if they do that or even if they dont, he'll be bothered by the water bullets along with their weapons already.

And thats just the boss summons I mean Im not talking about Jiraiya himself but Im waiting on heroeking mainly.
They're not going to be able to react fast enough. It was calculated that he would have to be spinning in the double digit mach region to make a crater that large(some say it's an outlier, but this isn't his moving speed just his tentacle spinning speed) And he actually doesn't even need to do the tornado, he could just settle this by an immediate TBB.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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They're not going to be able to react fast enough. It was calculated that he would have to be spinning in the double digit mach region to make a crater that large(some say it's an outlier, but this isn't his moving speed just his tentacle spinning speed) And he actually doesn't even need to do the tornado, he could just settle this by an immediate TBB.
Well chapter 566 page 1 disagrees with you when he still had to bring his tails back & prepare to spin around. Its not that hard to jump in that time and it doesnt change there are 3 boss summons there, all with swords and water bullets. Thats a little different than ineffective trees BTW.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Well chapter 566 page 1 disagrees with you when he still had to bring his tails back & prepare to spin around. Its not that hard to jump in that time and it doesnt change there are 3 boss summons there, all with swords and water bullets. Thats a little different than ineffective trees BTW.
ah i forgot about that. Anyways, waterbullets are at best city block level attacks and Bee could tank worse in base. In released form he tanked a portion of a Mountain buster. So Bee just shoots an MB right off the bat, jiraiya and the toads turn to vapor.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:01 PM   #27
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

Well as I said its not in character @ all for Killer Bee to just enter Hachibi in the start of the fight and blast away at just 1 person. The only way hed do that is if the boss summons are out or Jiriaya pressures him enough but he cant just completely ignore 3 summons in order to kill Jiraiya.

Out of curiosity I wonder what he tanked I dont remember what mountain buster
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Well as I said its not in character @ all for Killer Bee to just enter Hachibi in the start of the fight and blast away at just 1 person. The only way hed do that is if the boss summons are out or Jiriaya pressures him enough but he cant just completely ignore 3 summons in order to kill Jiraiya.

Out of curiosity I wonder what he tanked I dont remember what mountain buster
Yes, i was talking about higher advancement in the fight. At the start jiraiya and bee are pretty equal in abilities and will test eachother. When jiraiya realizes the need and pulls out the summons, Bee is going to transform and it won't take long. For the mountain buster, it was his TBB, it was a portion because he was more or less closer to the side of the blast rather then the center.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

Damn a quote war I hate those. Anyways from my perspective, both can avoid getting killed in the initial skirmish or 2. Jiraiya has been shown to get out of crappy situations and has plenty of ninjutsu, while Bee can out-right tank most blunt forces and has partial Jinchuuriki transformations to assist him.

Examples would be Jiraiya finding the weakness of Konan's intangibility, using a barrier to find an invisible summon while still prepping SM, being able to escape the paths and think of a plan, and finally having his arm ripped apart and still having what it takes to capture the Animal Path despite all 6 paths being present. This guy's a perv but you have to admit he's pretty resourceful.

Bee on the other hand has overpowered opponents like Jugo and was able to avoid Sasuke's attempts to capture him countless times. When he's in trouble, he can resort to his partial transformation (consisting of his hardened hand and his tentacles) which saved him take a punch from A, dodge attacks from the Jinchuuriki paths, surprise opponents by letting him burrow it underground, etc. (off the top of my head)

What it really comes down to are their final forms. From my personal opinion, Jiraiya can manage the time needed to get into SM using boss summons and other diverse ninjutsu that he doesn't even need his hands for. When he IS in SM, I don't think that it'll be as easy to hit him as others thing(changed my opinion from last thread because of other posts). He still has nifty tricks like taking his opponent's attention and blind-siding them, using large Sage-enhanced and/or collaboration jutsu, having 2 toads on his shoulders to support him when in trouble etc. Bee will likely need to pull out V1 to defend against these, which destroys his element of surprise by using the Jinchuuriki transformations. A small Rasengan can deal great damage, so I believe a Rasengan like the one SM Jiraiya used would cause heavy damage.

In my opinion, it comes down to a 50/50 break down as ninja before have detached multiple horns/tails of the Hachibi, and Jiraiya seems suited for that with Pa's tounge, Ultimate Rasengan, Gamabunta's sword etc. I think that he will indeed have some of his frogs killed in the process, and the Hachibi is a mean so... I just went with halfies here
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Yes, i was talking about higher advancement in the fight. At the start jiraiya and bee are pretty equal in abilities and will test eachother. When jiraiya realizes the need and pulls out the summons, Bee is going to transform and it won't take long. For the mountain buster, it was his TBB, it was a portion because he was more or less closer to the side of the blast rather then the center.
Well its not like Jiraiya cant move at all. Team taka managed to get around it or at least were unscathed so if anything the toads can tank the blast as Suigetsu could do it. What I think happened was they moved around it which should be simple enough especially for Jiraiya but regardless they came out without a scratch.

Thats if it was resorted too. though I think Killer Bee, wins I just dont thinkt it would be that easy. Especially with SM if it comes to that he'll give Hachibi a bigger problem.

Wait Im not getting what youre saying, you said KB could tank a portion of a mountain buster in basse but I'm still confused.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:44 PM   #31
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Well its not like Jiraiya cant move at all. Team taka managed to get around it or at least were unscathed so if anything the toads can tank the blast as Suigetsu could do it. What I think happened was they moved around it which should be simple enough especially for Jiraiya but regardless they came out without a scratch.

Thats if it was resorted too. though I think Killer Bee, wins I just dont thinkt it would be that easy. Especially with SM if it comes to that he'll give Hachibi a bigger problem.

Wait Im not getting what youre saying, you said KB could tank a portion of a mountain buster in basse but I'm still confused.
Suigetsu actually sheilded them from it that's why they survived, rock 100s of metres behind them was obliterated. And suigetsu's durability is incredibly different from the toads so we can't compare them in that way. Ah not in base, in full released mode Bee fired a TBB he was enveloped by the blast but survived unscathed.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

Frog Song + Swamp of the Underworld.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Frog Song + Swamp of the Underworld.
Genjutsu doesn't work against bee, TBB turns the swamp into a cloud.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

Just because it can be broken doesn't mean it doesn't work. Frog Song keeps him busy long enough for Swamp of the Underworld to catch Bee. And once he's caught, he can't use TBB to escape without seriously injuring himself. And there's nothing stopping Jiraiya from using it again and again.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:52 PM   #35
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Just because it can be broken doesn't mean it doesn't work. Frog Song keeps him busy long enough for Swamp of the Underworld to catch Bee. And once he's caught, he can't use TBB to escape without seriously injuring himself. And there's nothing stopping Jiraiya from using it again and again.
A superior genjutsu worked on him for several seconds, that's really it. And he's been hit by his own TBB just fine before. And jiraiya's not going to be using the swamp after that...
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:52 PM   #36
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Suigetsu actually sheilded them from it that's why they survived, rock 100s of metres behind them was obliterated. And suigetsu's durability is incredibly different from the toads so we can't compare them in that way. Ah not in base, in full released mode Bee fired a TBB he was enveloped by the blast but survived unscathed.
? Istill dont remember him being enveloped, I dont even remember any other time he used it other than chapter 414 page 7.

Well Suigetsu was just a huge body of water, the toads are the size of Hachibi and theyre actually solid they can accomplish the same thing then.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:55 PM   #37
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A superior genjutsu worked on him for several seconds, that's really it.
Superior is debatable, since Frog Song has never been shown to be able to be broken by the target and can target multiple enemies far superior to anyone that Tsukuyomi has ever worked on.

Either way several seconds is all the time Jiraiya needs.

Quote:
And he's been hit by his own TBB just fine before.
This part I don't remember.

Quote:
And jiraiya's not going to be using the swamp after that...
Jiraiya's not going to be using SotU after Killer Bee shoots himself with TBB because...oh right, there is no reason. Jiraiya reapplies SotU as necessary and Bee dies. The end.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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? Istill dont remember him being enveloped, I dont even remember any other time he used it other than chapter 414 page 7.

Well Suigetsu was just a huge body of water, the toads are the size of Hachibi and theyre actually solid they can accomplish the same thing then.
on page 14 he's within the crater itself, on page 7 the explosion isn't finished yet. And if suigetsu was "just water" he would have been vaporized instantaneously as the water levels were rather then turning to some sort of patroleum jelly .
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:59 PM   #39
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

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Superior is debatable, since Frog Song has never been shown to be able to be broken by the target and can target multiple enemies far superior to anyone that Tsukuyomi has ever worked on.

Either way several seconds is all the time Jiraiya needs.



This part I don't remember.



Jiraiya's not going to be using SotU after Killer Bee shoots himself with TBB because...oh right, there is no reason. Jiraiya reapplies SotU as necessary and Bee dies. The end.
chapter 414 page 14
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: jiraiya vs killer bee

So what you're saying is, Jiraiya uses Swamp of the Underworld and Bee dies.
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