Pain vs Danzo

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Why is Danzo controlling any of the paths when they are nothing but corpses controlled by Nagato?

now what a lot of are leaving out is..what's protecting Nagato himself from being mind controlled by by proxy if one of his meat puppets gets the magic eyeball treatment?

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

Why is Danzo controlling any of the paths when they are nothing but corpses controlled by Nagato?

now what a lot of are leaving out is..what's protecting Nagato himself from being mind controlled by by proxy if one of his meat puppets gets the magic eyeball treatment?

Frog song, if it affected his paths, would affect him by what your implying.

Thus the nagato arc would've ended there. Since he wasn't affected, we can assume that its a camera effect. He can see whats happening, but not necessarily being a direct onlooker.

Such effects could be seen as : Why doesn't the sharingan affect people when they look at the reflection in water?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Frog song, if it affected his paths, would affect him by what your implying.

because an audio based illusion is comparable to a near complete subversion of a persons individuality?

I understand what your saying but their two separate issues: I'm also not implying anything I don't have a dog in this fight I'm just pointing something out.

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Thus the nagato arc would've ended there. Since he wasn't affected, we can assume that its a camera effect. He can see whats happening, but not necessarily being a direct onlooker.

1, two completely different Genjutsus basically

2, PIS is off by default now so that very may have been how things could have gone?

now it's possible the song wasn't strong enough or it's unique nature messed with the frequency so to speak

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Such effects could be seen as : Why doesn't the sharingan affect people when they look at the reflection in water?

Because the Uchiha in question likely didn't have a considerable portion of his energies constantly being networked into the water..with a live feed directly to his brain?

Your comparing mindfucks in mirrors to "Can I mind rape you through a very expensive webcam that's directly hardwired into your brain"

and you should note that I actually don't think Danzo can I was merely pointing out what could be..if any one wants to prove the issue they're welcome too

[Frost ninja]

I understand where your coming from, but I feel it would be like trying to genjutsu Crow and it affecting Kankuro, since they are connected by strings of chakra and whatnot. Crow has a camera in him, so assuming kank was looking through the camera would genjutsu affect him then?

And the audio genjutsu directly attacked their psyche, so I don't think that would just pass under the radar, especially when its a shared system.

[Shisko Shi]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

I understand where your coming from, but I feel it would be like trying to genjutsu Crow and it affecting Kankuro, since they are connected by strings of chakra and whatnot. Crow has a camera in him, so assuming kank was looking through the camera would genjutsu affect him then?

I dont know about that i could be wrong, but that's Nagoto's eye seeing though so it might effect him more but you could be right.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

I understand where your coming from, but I feel it would be like trying to genjutsu Crow and it affecting Kankuro, since they are connected by strings of chakra and whatnot. Crow has a camera in him, so assuming kank was looking through the camera would genjutsu affect him then?

that's also a bit different Crow isn't directly hard wired to the guys brain..The dead bodies function a lot like a very expensive RC car if they car was actively feeding data to your brain

Crow is an independent puppet controlled by chakra strings..not a direct feed

thats my take on it

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

And the audio genjutsu directly attacked their psyche, so I don't think that would just pass under the radar, especially when its a shared system.

it didn't, now either Nagato cut off all reception or it did effect him slightly..I dunno I can't recall what happened when.

[321zigzag3]

If Nagato was affected we would have known about it by now.

Its clear as of now unless later chapters contradicts it, that Nagato doesn't receive the negative feedback.

Otherwise he should have turned into stone as well when Preta Path absorbed too much unbalanced Sage chakra via too much natural energy.

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

that's also a bit different Crow isn't directly hard wired to the guys brain..The dead bodies function a lot like a very expensive RC car if they car was actively feeding data to your brain

Crow is an independent puppet controlled by chakra strings..not a direct feed

thats my take on it

Well true its not directly wired to his brain, it IS directly connected to him via chakra strings. As in its directly tied to his chakra system, without the ability of lessening the intensity as would occur with waves of chakra emission.

Having something going directly into your fingers is a much more direct feed than varying waves of chakra.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Having something going directly into your fingers is a much more direct feed than varying waves of chakra.

I would hardly call controlling a wooden puppet more direct then a bunch of dead guys via jacking your eyesight and nervous system into them through chakra spears

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

I would hardly call controlling a wooden puppet more direct then a bunch of dead guys via jacking your eyesight and nervous system into them through chakra spears

Its direct enough as to where bugs can walk on the strings and get to you. So tying a rope to something is more direct than radio waves, yes. In my opinion.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Its direct enough as to where bugs can walk on the strings and get to you. So tying a rope to something is more direct than radio waves, yes. In my opinion.

that's a physical manifestation of energy then Shino's bugs don't exactly mean that Crow can be used as a middle man for a genjutsu

unlike say Yahiko's body..plus the connection isn't into Kankuros brain

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog

that's a physical manifestation of energy then Shino's bugs don't exactly mean that Crow can be used as a middle man for a genjutsu

unlike say Yahiko's body..plus the connection isn't into Kankuros brain

However Genjutsu doesn't, per se, affect the brain but the chakra system in general. By altering the flow, it creates hallucinations for the senses. Now, so to say, if it were for the brain only then could we assume someone who is... blind, for example, would be unaffected by "visual genjutsu", even if they unintentionally make direct eye contact?

This is where the line gets drawn. How does genjutsu get into the body to affect the senses? It doesn't seem to necessarily need a direct connection like eye contact, and it seems to be negated by the off-looker perspective of seeing it in a reflection, for example.

My best example of Genjutsu would be something like body-phased hypoxia training. Basically, by denying oxygen from existing around certain parts of the body, one can note the sensations they feel in individual parts in order to better recognize them and take the signs of hypoxia.

When one is afflicted by hypoxia, the lack of or heavy alteration of oxygen in the area will cause hallucinations among other things (I say heavy alteration because being stuck in an area with too dense an amount of oxygen will also cause issues). The chakra system is, in effect, our circulatory/respiratory senses in this case. Hypoxia can be felt from remote parts of the body, not necessarily needing the effect of detaining oxygen from the brain. So in this case, we have two sides of this.


One is Nagato, whom is transmitting his thoughts and whatnot on a much more universal level with the pain paths. He does so through a radio signal type deal. However, he seemed to be unaffected by frog song, so we can conclude that the senses themselves do not carry over. Sight may, due to linked vision, however this is entirely due to nagato himself. Assuming one can genjutsu the main by hitting one of the paths would be on the same level as assuming one can genjutsu kankuro by hitting the puppet if he is using the camera to scout. Being attached to the brain or not, since we haven't seen the genjutsu carry over and he is in an off-look perspective, he shouldn't be hit by anything.

The other is kankuro, whom is directly tied to the puppets via chakra strings. It would, in fact, be more logical to assume he could be afflicted by genjutsu since his strings provide a direct link to his chakra (not indirect like the radio waves) as well as a base from which the genjutsu can start (the puppet) and end (kankuro). Furthermore, we don't have evidence to the contrary where as in Nagato's case we have the lack of frog song carrying over. If we can think Nagato can be affected via genjutsu since its attached to the brain, then we should also assume kankuro can be hit through his puppets since it connects directly to the genjutsu's primary target, being the chakra system.

Much like how hypoxia can occur from anywhere, we must also assume that the requirements to trigger genjutsu aren't as strict as direct brain manipulation. Being sound is mere vibrations, and sound genjutsu is chakra-infused sound vibrations, we can assume one could make a sound genjutsu under someone elses feet and use the vibrations of their bones to bring the genjutsu to the top. Mind you, the genjutsu eventually goes to the brain, I won't deny that. However, the input of chakra can be administered from anywhere so long as it makes it to that point, being the brain. Since the entire body is controlled by chakra flow, this means as long as a genjutsu can make a path in (such as the chakra strings) then it can cause a genjutsu to occur.


In the case of Nagato, its very possible genjutsu might not travel back since its not made to go on top of the waves. Now as for it affecting the certain paths, yes they have their own set of controlled senses so its assumable one could see what occured in the genjutsu. However to bind ones psyche is a different sensation. If torture works is questionable since it wouldn't harm the corpse, but something passive like what Jirayia did would allow Nagato to spectate. The only harm came from direct attacks of Sage Swords to the paths. Afterwards, he ended the genjutsu or the sound waves faded off, but since Nagato didn't send the other 3 paths to maul Jirayia in the meantime we might be able to guess that his psyche was temporarily locked in as well.

This is the paradox. On one hand, we can't assume that genjutsu will affect Nagato since he is both in an off-looker stance of things and since there was no concrete evidence that the frog song affected him. However, on the other hand the lack of action from the other paths as well as the idea that even an off-looker can be affected if theres a path for the genjutsu to travel on that make it a subject I have interest in. Whats your take on it?

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

but since Nagato didn't send the other 3 paths to maul Jirayia in the meantime we might be able to guess that his psyche was temporarily locked in as well.

He did.

This is the paradox. On one hand, we can't assume that genjutsu will affect Nagato since he is both in an off-looker stance of things and since there was no concrete evidence that the frog song affected him. However, on the other hand the lack of action from the other paths as well as the idea that even an off-looker can be affected if theres a path for the genjutsu to travel on that make it a subject I have interest in. Whats your take on it?

There is always a possibility but we will never know but we do know this.

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

If Nagato was affected we would have known about it by now.

Its clear as of now unless later chapters contradicts it, that Nagato doesn't receive the negative feedback.

Otherwise he should have turned into stone as well when Preta Path absorbed too much unbalanced Sage chakra via too much natural energy.

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

He did.

After. I'm talking during. The paths weren't shown waking up until after the 3 previous were killed if I recall correctly.



There is always a possibility but we will never know but we do know this.

As for the sage mode ideal, technically he would've turned to stone from when Naruto tracked him since he jused nature chakra to trace the waves.

[321zigzag3]

After. I'm talking during. The paths weren't shown waking up until after the 3 previous were killed if I recall correctly.

Right after Jiraiya "killed" the 3 paths. He was quickly ambushed by Asura Path. It was likelye while the Paths were trapped, the other 3 were coming over.

Also if Nagato was also trapped shouldn't the Toads have been aware of another presence?

We could always speculate though if the Toad Song gave Nagato a brief pause or not, its a never ending argument for both sides although quite more tend to say Toad Song didn't affect Nagato directly.

Another thing is that Nagato has genjutsu defense himself at least we know in the form of in regular dead corpse.

As for the sage mode ideal, technically he would've turned to stone from when Naruto tracked him since he jused nature chakra to trace the waves.

Nagato wasn't absorbing anything so he would not have.

Only Preta's path circulatory system or whatever was in it, beforehand.

[Frost ninja]

Well why would he wait until the three paths "died" before sending in asura? It'd make more sense to save the paths and ambush him then and there

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Well why would he wait until the three paths "died" before sending in asura? It'd make more sense to save the paths and ambush him then and there

Because it's deemed more exciting and dramatic that way.

Also it gives the whole Pain is invincible vibe off.

I personally think plot played more of a presented role there and also Pain likely wanted to further shock into letting his guard down.

Further references from the dialogue after when Asura goes, "I thought you taught me not to let my guard down."

[Frost ninja]

Eh. I still think that the pause means theres no way to prove he was or wasn't affected, since it either acts in motion of the future or in light of the present.

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

Eh. I still think that the pause means theres no way to prove he was or wasn't affected, since it either acts in motion of the future or in light of the present.

My explanation exists and still probable.

[Frost ninja]

As does mine, and plot aside it is the most logical.