Madara vs Luffy

[Frost ninja]

Originally Posted by colorles

Gaaras and his sand might as well be a completely different being than earlier in the series, he's like a 'sand god' now

Doesn't change that his sand still has to move, and its speed feats aren't on par with Luffy's attack speeds. "Sand god" or not.

onoki lightened the meteor, to X degree (well Gaara saying his sand feels alot lighter is an indication, the meteor should have been considerably lightened as well; seriosly it took the absolute perfect combination, consisting of the two ideal beings to do it in onoki and gaara, to stop the first meteor, and then Madara just casually drops a second)

He lightened one, and the second gave a direct impact on the top of the second with no lightening applied to it. So yes, he still tanked a meteor.

break susano? not while Madara is simultaneosly entangling any opponent in mukaton, droping meteors on them, or just staring at them, or perhaps stealing their souls, and much much more. and susano protects Madara more than long enough anyways considering his arsenal

He doesn't need to break susanoo, he needs to outspeed it. Luffy is more than capable of doing so due to Madara's lack of major reactions.

Madara is portrayed in the source material as fast


Proof me.

'god' is not equal to 'God', its a subjective term, while 'God' tends to entail 'omnipotence'

I'm aware. However, as I've said, being a god is irrelevant. You still lose if your outsped.

anyone that survived that meteor survived either due to Gaara or that rubber guy, keep in mind Gaara deflected alot of it which would at least save some (if only a little(of his regiment. and Gaara would make a point to protect Temari

561-4. Took onoki and gaara both to prevent one meteor, nothing was stopping the impact of the second. If nothing else, it would still be fatal to anyone underneath it. Temari isn't even behind cover, and appearently the meteor is of lesser power than the 3rd raigake's lightning punches being the lightning could pierce the rubber and even nearly break it, but a meteor drop could not.

Either way, neither of the two were able to nullify the second meteor yet the tsuchikage who got directly hit by the mass of the second one and what was left of the mass of the first survived with only an injured eye. He was strong enough to just stand up and keep fighting.

Gaaras abilities are different than crocodiles, and alot more precise

Are they? Crocodile seems to be able to be more percise in that his body is sand, so any attacks on him can simply be evaded and countered directly while Gaara's sand is left to deal with his own reactions or lack thereof.



also dont take this to seriosly (not you, remix jaja, if the caps entail such jaja, its just a little jokingly 'debate')

dattebayo

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

\

Except its not massively hypersonic, and theres no proof to say it is aside from an after-effect light show that occurs commonly. Madara has yet to show reactions to the elephant gun, or much anything Luffy has.




529-8 as an example, the glow is still around the pot. Its just for show mostly, it doesn't equate to anything.

But the difference between the two is there is no break between the scene. That is more than eneough proof of the combo. Stream lines in manga has always been an highspeed indicator. Being launched at the speed of light and decelerating pretty much still leaves you deep in the hypersonic range. Especially with that time frame which was practically instant.

Your still forgetting about momentum. Hitting something else doesn't magically prevent you from moving, especially considering neither madara or Muu were grounded, meaning no resistance. The light from the jutsu may simply be an after effect, but the light alone doesn't magically cancel out the laws of physics which were, in this case, demonstrated many many many times before.


See the hidden lotus as an example, if what you say is true then Lee, nor gaara, would move from midair like they do being they are colliding bodies. Yet Gaara gets shot down and lee lands and falls off to the side. Gaara being shot down should've have happened if the ideals of inertia were to suddenly not exist in naruverse. So no, theres no proof that Madara blocked an attack of greater speed than Tsunade's attack is basically. Unless your also stating Tsunade has lightspeed+ attack speeds for being able to move into an attacking position during the insanely short interval it would take for them to get there along with being able to accurately aim and deliver said attack.

Never said it did. I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Ever consider the possibility that they actually had the strength to endure to a certain degree. I know its crazy but just think they may have super strength. Naw thats just crazy talk no one in Naruto has super strength.

As far Tsunade have lightspeed+ reactions negative. She had prewarned Knowledge of the attack. So it wasn't a seconds notice when she switched to an attack. Also there was a slight deceleration due to the jutsu was comming to an end.

IF its as instant and unwarned as you say, then anyone who has ever reacted to, and reacted to someone who had reacted to any tsunade attack are now in lightspeed categories.

However, this is not the case. They appeared, landed, and attacked at basic speed. Light being something that just happened to be there, it happened with the amber pot as well, but if said pot were still moving it would've drove itself into some direction

.

Where is the proof of them stopping landing and launching an attack? If they stopped pretty sure the scene would have depicticted them stopping. But instead it showed them moving at a massively high speed colliding with Madara and Muu. That fact won't change. The mechanics of Mabui technique has apparently indicate she can launch attacks with it. The pot was just a simple material transfer two completely different situations. As far as Tsunade reactions go there has been a two to three year gap since she had a fight. We have no clue what her current stats is. Nor her capabilities but saying she is lightspeed is crazy as hell.
But she did react instantly when comming out of the jutsu. So her reaction speed has had major jump.

[cnorwood]

madara can spam the rock? you realize if he isnt edo (which he isnt in this match) he will die

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by cnorwood

madara can spam the rock? you realize if he isnt edo (which he isnt in this match) he will die

Izanagi pretty much would take care of that.

[colorles]

Originally Posted by Frost ninja

dattebayo

yeah Gaaras sand tends to move....fast. thats all that matters

good for him (but no good on kishis part)

Madara can do other attacks while within susano

read/observe the manga

Madara is portrayed as fast

good for them (speaks more of onokis durabilitiy, as odd as it seems, its kishis manga and if he wants to make onoki withstand a giant meteor/asteroid falling on him, he can)

the whole 'lightening pierces' thing i'm not gonna get into

crocodiles body is sand, but Gaaras abilties with sand are far more lethal and devastating, and the sand is as fast as Gaaras reactions, thus as he has more than shown recently, Gaara has fast reactions



blah blah blah this doesnt matter, you can respond but wajeva

[Kill3r_B-st]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

Izanagi pretty much would take care of that.

show me madara using Izanagi...........

[ReMiX613]

Originally Posted by colorles

its LIKE im DEBATING against King Arthur,,(WANKERS)

and why cant he spam them? considering how lolingly he dropped the second, without even affecting his chakra (keep in mind 'spam' doesnt imply 'infinate', although with edo,,,,jaja)

Gaaras a tricky fighter, he would be rather troublesome to Luffy, and would likely rip him to shreds

Madara hardly needs edo with his dojutsu, although he is an edo so wajeva. but really even without edo, if he wanted to spam 'dat rock' meteor, he just activates susano (which seems to help him 'summon' it), and drops it down on luffy/one piece on a whim. and this is not even mentioning his other sharingan/rinnegan abilities

Madara is portrayed as rather fast, speed is not an 'issue' here

Madara could be 'considered' a 'god' (amoungst a few others) in HST, only if Bleach isnt considered part of HST though anymore (and this is disagreed upon), but if you are including Bleach, well only a few beings in Narutoverse (via sharingan/rinnegan) could resist somwhat, but Bleach is a transcendent verse in comparison to Naruto and One Piece otherwise



also Gaara is a tricky fighter, Luffy getting through Gaaras sand is rather unlikely, especially without getting buried, crushed, or ripped to pieces by it

Originally Posted by colorles

lol that was an 'in side joke'...'out of place' herwa

Madaras still toying around, experimenting with mukaton

Gaaras and his sand might as well be a completely different being than earlier in the series, he's like a 'sand god' now

onoki lightened the meteor, to X degree (well Gaara saying his sand feels alot lighter is an indication, the meteor should have been considerably lightened as well; seriosly it took the absolute perfect combination, consisting of the two ideal beings to do it in onoki and gaara, to stop the first meteor, and then Madara just casually drops a second)

break susano? not while Madara is simultaneosly entangling any opponent in mukaton, droping meteors on them, or just staring at them, or perhaps stealing their souls, and much much more. and susano protects Madara more than long enough anyways considering his arsenal

Madara is portrayed in the source material as fast

'god' is not equal to 'God', its a subjective term, while 'God' tends to entail 'omnipotence'

anyone that survived that meteor survived either due to Gaara or that rubber guy, keep in mind Gaara deflected alot of it which would at least save some (if only a little(of his regiment. and Gaara would make a point to protect Temari

Gaaras abilities are different than crocodiles, and alot more precise



also dont take this to seriosly (not you, remix jaja, if the caps entail such jaja, its just a little jokingly 'debate')

Again i said that i only typed some words in caps to MAKE IT CLEAR what i was trying to tell you.
But it looks like you're not even paying attention to what anybody is trying to say to you and sticking to your own opinion.

Give me proof that Madara can simultaneously do all that.
Give me proof that Gaara can rip Luffy apart.
Give me proof that Madara can SPAM it.
Give me proof that Madara can outclass Luffy in every single category.
Give me proof that Madara can tank a hypersonic+ attack or react to such an attack.
Give me proof that Madara is faster than Luffy.
Give me proof that Madara can tank a hypersonic+ attack that wrecked a cyborg that is made of something many times stronger than steel. Proof that it's stronger than steel? Zoro, pre-time skip barely made a dent on Kuma with his STRONGEST attack. And FYI I'm pretty sure Kuma and the other Pacifistas are made of the same material.
Give me proof that Madara can survive Red Hawk (Note that when Luffy was using the attack, that it was underwater and therefore weakened his attack by so much but his attack was still so powerful that it was capable of creating an explosion underwater while weakened).
Give me proof that Madara is a god.
Give me proof that Madara can even tank a CoA attack, actually, give me proof that Madara can tank ANY of Luffy's attacks at all.

Answer those properly, and we'll talk because at the moment you're just being ignorant, insulting me and blocking out every single thing me and Frost have been trying to tell you and you're siding with your own opinion while earlier in the thread you talk about such things.On the other hand, i am using feats and providing proof.

Until then, I am done talking with you, if i continue talking with you, it will only end in my flaming at you for being ignorant and rude.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Kill3r_B-st

show me madara using Izanagi...........

So you are saying the most powerful uchiha in the history of uchihas can't use Izanagi. Especially considering he has casually shown his mastery over every form of the sharigan. He even knows how to use the abilities of harishima. All knowledge of the sharigan leads back to him anyways.

[Kill3r_B-st]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

So you are saying the most powerful uchiha in the history of uchihas can't use Izanagi. Especially considering he has casually shown his mastery over every form of the sharigan. He even knows how to use the abilities of harishima. All knowledge of the sharigan leads back to him anyways.

page and chapter of feat please..............

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Kill3r_B-st

page and chapter of feat please..............

No need thats asinine. He is the founder and strongest master of the Uchiha. He has already proven his mastery of it with the fact he can summon the fox. I won't be playing look for the chapter game. He controls all three, sharigan, ms, and Rinnegan. chapters 560-563 proves that. So are you saying that you don't have common sense.

[Kill3r_B-st]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

No need thats asinine. He is the founder and strongest master of the Uchiha. He has already proven his mastery of it with the fact he can summon the fox. I won't be playing look for the chapter game. He controls all three, sharigan, ms, and Rinnegan. chapters 560-563 proves that. So are you saying that you don't have common sense.

izanagi=controlling kyuubi?

so sasuke has yata mirror and totsuka sword due to common sense of him having itachi's eyes right?

so kakashi must have killed some unknown friend to achieve his mangekyou due to common sense right?

these my friend are called assumptions not common sense.

[colorles]

Originally Posted by ReMiX613

Again i said that i only typed some words in caps to MAKE IT CLEAR what i was trying to tell you.
But it looks like you're not even paying attention to what anybody is trying to say to you and sticking to your own opinion.

Give me proof that Madara can simultaneously do all that.
Give me proof that Gaara can rip Luffy apart.
Give me proof that Madara can SPAM it.
Give me proof that Madara can outclass Luffy in every single category.
Give me proof that Madara can tank a hypersonic+ attack or react to such an attack.
Give me proof that Madara is faster than Luffy.
Give me proof that Madara can tank a hypersonic+ attack that wrecked a cyborg that is made of something many times stronger than steel. Proof that it's stronger than steel? Zoro, pre-time skip barely made a dent on Kuma with his STRONGEST attack. And FYI I'm pretty sure Kuma and the other Pacifistas are made of the same material.
Give me proof that Madara can survive Red Hawk (Note that when Luffy was using the attack, that it was underwater and therefore weakened his attack by so much but his attack was still so powerful that it was capable of creating an explosion underwater while weakened).
Give me proof that Madara is a god.
Give me proof that Madara can even tank a CoA attack, actually, give me proof that Madara can tank ANY of Luffy's attacks at all.

Answer those properly, and we'll talk because at the moment you're just being ignorant, insulting me and blocking out every single thing me and Frost have been trying to tell you and you're siding with your own opinion while earlier in the thread you talk about such things.On the other hand, i am using feats and providing proof.

Until then, I am done talking with you, if i continue talking with you, it will only end in my flaming at you for being ignorant and rude.

jus kiddlin

simultaeosly do 'all that' as in defend with susano and do other attacks? yet he blatently used susano not only to defend himself, but actually used it to help him 'summon' 'dat rock' meteor,,,,yeah

Luffy cant get past Gaaras sand without getting crushed/ripped apart in the process

Madara already lolingly spammed 2 of them, without any strain on his chakra, and toying around with other techniques

Madara outclasses Luffy in more than enough catagories, the only thing everyone seems to be arguing is speed, and Madara has susano and 'dat rock' meteor regardless, and hes and edo, and on top of that, Madara is portrayed as eceptionally fast, just his skillful movements create mini tornados, and with the predicatablitiy of sharingan, its illusionary abilities, not to mention his other sharingan/rinnegan abilities, he more than 'outclasses' Luffy by far in pretty much everything except perhaps pure punching power. but if you need a 'range area' of Madaras speed, hes portrayed as being at least comparable to Itachi is speed, comparable to Gaaras sand, well any really, really 'high tier' fighters, all of which are at least faster than lightening

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predictability, illusions, etc so on so forth

Madara is portrayed as at least faster than lightening

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predictability, illusions, etc so on so forth

Madara is a 'god' in a sense of being 'top tier', its pretty common for 'top tiers' in fiction to be 'gods' in a sense

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predicatbility, illusions, etc so on so forth. also it should be noted that sharingan can at least 'track' objects moving faster than lightening, likely many times faster than lightening, and this varys from sharingan to sharingan, some sharingan are more 'adept' than others



im rather mindful of your and Frosties responces, im just illumination how the characters are portrayed in the canon sources

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Kill3r_B-st

izanagi=controlling kyuubi?

so sasuke has yata mirror and totsuka sword due to common sense of him having itachi's eyes right?

so kakashi must have killed some unknown friend to achieve his mangekyou due to common sense right?

these my friend are called assumptions not common sense.

No the fact that Izanagi is an inborn ability of the sharigan proves he can use it. That fact is proven by danzo. Controlling the kyuubi requires complete mastery of the sharigan. So him being able to use all the inborn capabilities of the sharigan is in fact common sense. Considering he is the poster boy of Uchiha abilities.

[ReMiX613]

Originally Posted by colorles

jus kiddlin

simultaeosly do 'all that' as in defend with susano and do other attacks? yet he blatently used susano not only to defend himself, but actually used it to help him 'summon' 'dat rock' meteor,,,,yeah

Luffy cant get past Gaaras sand without getting crushed/ripped apart in the process

Madara already lolingly spammed 2 of them, without any strain on his chakra, and toying around with other techniques

Madara outclasses Luffy in more than enough catagories, the only thing everyone seems to be arguing is speed, and Madara has susano and 'dat rock' meteor regardless, and hes and edo, and on top of that, Madara is portrayed as eceptionally fast, just his skillful movements create mini tornados, and with the predicatablitiy of sharingan, its illusionary abilities, not to mention his other sharingan/rinnegan abilities, he more than 'outclasses' Luffy by far in pretty much everything except perhaps pure punching power. but if you need a 'range area' of Madaras speed, hes portrayed as being at least comparable to Itachi is speed, comparable to Gaaras sand, well any really, really 'high tier' fighters, all of which are at least faster than lightening

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predictability, illusions, etc so on so forth

Madara is portrayed as at least faster than lightening

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predictability, illusions, etc so on so forth

Madara is a 'god' in a sense of being 'top tier', its pretty common for 'top tiers' in fiction to be 'gods' in a sense

susano, edo, rinnegan absorbtion, faster speed and sharingan predicatbility, illusions, etc so on so forth. also it should be noted that sharingan can at least 'track' objects moving faster than lightening, likely many times faster than lightening, and this varys from sharingan to sharingan, some sharingan are more 'adept' than others



im rather mindful of your and Frosties responces, im just illumination how the characters are portrayed in the canon sources

I'm sorry, you still haven't given me anything I've asked you on my list.


Madara does not outclass Luffy in any category at all besides versatility.
That panel where he was shown dancing like a ballerina and killing fodder, that little "tornado" was just an effect to show that he span there, like how he span later on in the chapter to kick a fodder away (Which was unnecessary).

NO ONE in Naruto moves faster than lightning. Give me proof that anyone does at all.

The sharingan can't "track" objects that are moving at the speed of lightning.
If you're referring to Itachi and Karin, then that's false because Itachi was given a 5 minute speech (exaggeration) on Kirin and had time to prepare Susano. Many times faster than lightning? Now i know that you're being COMPLETELY one-sided and now you're just making up random stuff without actual feats to back it up.

Again, No one in Naruto is Faster than lightning.

He summoned 2 of them, but that doesn't mean he can "spam" them.
It's the same thing as saying, Sengoku can create a massive shock wave, but can he spam it'? No because he has not shown the feats to do so.

Endurance > Luffy, proof? Magellan fight, Lucci fight, Crocodile fight, Whitebeard War.

Durability > Luffy, proof? Moria (Buffed with 1000 shadows, including Luffy, Zoro's and Sanji's) split Thriller Bark. He then latter landed, over 3 of those monstrous hits that was capable of splitting Thriller Bark. And I'm not talking about the buildings, I'm talking about the ground.

Speed > Luffy, proof? Limit_Tester's Calcs: http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=184491
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=256628

Reflexes > Luffy, proof? Dodged a bullet point blank by tilting his head backwards. More proof? Dodged Mihawk's slash that was capable of traveling possibly over 100m almost instantly and slicing a mountain sized iceburg in half.

Strength > Luffy, you already admitted it but i'll give you proof anyways. Was carrying around and was capable of running up-hill with a massive golden ball on his arm that was calculated to be 714 tons. Proof?
http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost...0&postcount=45


Also refer to this thread : http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=294200

You will find dozens and dozens of feats that proves Madara is inferior to Luffy in every category besides versatility.

I provided proof, now you have to provide proof, otherwise your points are meaningless.

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by ReMiX613

I'm sorry, you still haven't given me anything I've asked you on my list.


Madara does not outclass Luffy in any category at all besides versatility.
That panel where he was shown dancing like a ballerina and killing fodder, that little "tornado" was just an effect to show that he span there, like how he span later on in the chapter to kick a fodder away (Which was unnecessary).

NO ONE in Naruto moves faster than lightning. Give me proof that anyone does at all.

The sharingan can't "track" objects that are moving at the speed of lightning.
If you're referring to Itachi and Karin, then that's false because Itachi was given a 5 minute speech (exaggeration) on Kirin and had time to prepare Susano. Many times faster than lightning? Now i know that you're being COMPLETELY one-sided and now you're just making up random stuff without actual feats to back it up.

Again, No one in Naruto is Faster than lightning.

He summoned 2 of them, but that doesn't mean he can "spam" them.
It's the same thing as saying, Sengoku can create a massive shock wave, but can he spam it'? No because he has not shown the feats to do so.

Endurance > Luffy, proof? Magellan fight, Lucci fight, Crocodile fight, Whitebeard War.

Durability > Luffy, proof? Moria (Buffed with 1000 shadows, including Luffy, Zoro's and Sanji's) split Thriller Bark. He then latter landed, over 3 of those monstrous hits that was capable of splitting Thriller Bark. And I'm not talking about the buildings, I'm talking about the ground.

Speed > Luffy, proof? Limit_Tester's Calcs

Reflexes > Luffy, proof? Dodged a bullet point blank by tilting his head backwards. More proof? Dodged Mihawk's slash that was capable of traveling possibly over 100m almost instantly and slicing a mountain sized iceburg in half.

Strength > Luffy, you already admitted it but i'll give you proof anyways. Was carrying around and was capable of running up-hill with a massive golden ball on his arm that was calculated to be 714 tons. Proof?


Also refer to this thread :

You will find dozens and dozens of feats that proves Madara is inferior to Luffy in every category besides versatility.


Please, try to provide some valid proof.

The fact he blocked a massively hypersonic attack is proof he is more than fast enough to deal with luffy. The feat is way in the region of lightning dodging. Unless you can disprove the feat that fact is abundantly clear. Even without the feat Izanagi+Rock=Luffy dying.

[ReMiX613]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

The fact he blocked a massively hypersonic attack is proof he is more than fast enough to deal with luffy. The feat is way in the region of lightning dodging. Unless you can disprove the feat that fact is abundantly clear. Even without the feat Izanagi+Rock=Luffy dying.

Proof that it was hypersonic? Till then, i have nothing to debate with you on that part.

What stops Luffy from knocking Madara out with a Hakified Jet Pistol before he can even summon it? Or after.

[Kill3r_B-st]

Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer

No the fact that Izanagi is an inborn ability of the sharigan proves he can use it. That fact is proven by danzo. Controlling the kyuubi requires complete mastery of the sharigan. So him being able to use all the inborn capabilities of the sharigan is in fact common sense. Considering he is the poster boy of Uchiha abilities.

common sense=feat?

sense when?

i believe common sense=assumption. what your saying isn't a fact. Fact=feat



Edit: and to your newest post. since you refuse luffy is fast enough to harm madara, what does madara have to harm luffy?

[Vivi]

Originally Posted by Kill3r_B-st

common sense=feat?

sense when?

i believe common sense=assumption. what your saying isn't a fact. Fact=feat

Common sense = Assumption?

Ok so I am gonna assume that despite it isn't a feat that a large amount of Ninjas can use the Substitution Jutsu.

We haven't seen it but it's common sense that they do.

Common sense does apply and works often.

Its not just.Feat.Feat.Feat.

[Super Sanin 3]

Reminds me of Heroking >.>

Although it makes sense he knows Izanagi as he has the senju cells and sharingan needed for it, but he most likely wouldn't go through without unless astly pressured

[Devils Lawyer]

Originally Posted by ReMiX613

Proof that it was hypersonic? Till then, i have nothing to debate with you on that part.

What stops Luffy from knocking Madara out with a Hakified Jet Pistol before he can even summon it? Or after.

I already proved. Tsunade was shot out a jutsu that was blantly stated to be the speed of light. The jutsu was comming to a completion so there was a decrease in speed. But given the time frame the speed can only decrease but so much. Comming from down the speed of light even with a few secs of lag would still have an object still heavly in the hypersonic region.

Even without my above statement Madara countered frs and three other attacks of equal speed already proven to be in the hypersonic range. So him activating Izanagi before he gets smashed is more than possible.

Originally Posted by Kill3r_B-st

common sense=feat?

sense when?

i believe common sense=assumption. what your saying isn't a fact. Fact=feat



Edit: and to your newest post. since you refuse luffy is fast enough to harm madara, what does madara have to harm luffy?

Originally Posted by Vivi

Common sense = Assumption?

Ok so I am gonna assume that despite it isn't a feat that a large amount of Ninjas can use the Substitution Jutsu.

We haven't seen it but it's common sense that they do.

Common sense does apply and works often.

Its not just.Feat.Feat.Feat.

^This