Tier Debate: Itachi vs. Pain

[Noctis Arashi]

The fact that Yasaka's Magmata was put on the same level as the Tailed Beast Bomb and Rasenshuriken should give it enough power. Especially if he either powers it up a bit, or just uses more.

[LUCKY.KAKASHI]

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

We don't by the anime cuz many consider it non-canon since it's not directly made by Kishimoto, manga was a mistake

so since we only use manga here , i will use that as an advantage for my debate benefits .


when u see the manga , u only see separated pictures with no clue for time between one picture and other , so i would say Deva can do ct very fast , coz when u see the manga , it shows that in one picture shows deva puts his hands together , and then in the other picture show him completed the cs , so we don't now the time that he really need to cast it , in that case i would say it is instant jutsu .

[Super Sanin 3]

Plus read what Noctis said, going by that logic YM may have the potential to break through it anyways, then GG the paths and now it's Itachi vs Deva Path

[LUCKY.KAKASHI]

Originally Posted by Noctis Arashi

The fact that Yasaka's Magmata was put on the same level as the Tailed Beast Bomb and Rasenshuriken should give it enough power. Especially if he either powers it up a bit, or just uses more.

no it is not fact , where did u get that from ?
the tailed best boom is very Superior to the ym .

because
when nagato cast his ct , naruto said : oh that jutsu is problem , right !
and then what itachi said is
itachi : if it is that dangerous , how u still alive ?
now naruto give clue to itachi by saying
naruto : it was tanks to the nine tails
now itachi with his intelligence estimate the power of the nine tail and go out with an exclusion which is : the only way we reach the same level of the nine tails power is by combining 8 tails best boom + rs + ym .

i think thats is what kishi was referring to , while showing how itachis is very smart .

any way , their is no evidence at itachi attack can destroy ct alone .

[LUCKY.KAKASHI]

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

Plus read what Noctis said, going by that logic YM may have the potential to break through it anyways, then GG the paths and now it's Itachi vs Deva Path

OK can u give me scenario for how itachi can win ?

[LUCKY.KAKASHI]

i agree with Noctis Arashi at one point
rs = ym , and pentra path can absorb rs , so he can absorb ym .

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by Bacon

Wall of text here

Paths=/=kakashi. They're dead. I don't think I need to repeat this.

That's within the realm of possibility except Itachi has to cast it on each of them, because there's no telling that he can catch them all at once. So, the others kill him while he's busy with one.

Even when he tried to fight he expected his genjutsu to finish people off by itself.

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

Wall of text here

I believe he used the ribs first then the armor.

Yasaka Magatama is not confirmed to be a spiritual weapon. So, idk about that.

Okay okay, I think everyone's forgetting it's six+ on one, and that Pain already knows about his abilities, while Itachi will have to figure out which one does what. What stops them from ganging up on him? Seriously. And can he really take a crap ton of boss summons, lasers, rockets, and the paths themselves all at the same time? He's not that good.

Originally Posted by Noctis Arashi

Wasn't itachi the one to deduce CT's weakness?

Also, shared vision and chakra links should make it to where one genjutsu is going to effect all of them. Including Nagato.

Essentially, I see itachi winning. CT isn't going to finish itachi like nothing. It's really becoming a bad habit that people consider CT insta-win essentially.

He was able to deduce it because it's extremely obvious. Deducing CT's weakness only made him look smart because he was fighting alongside two idiots.

They don't have the same brains, nervous system, etc. They're puppets. I still don't see how using genjutsu on one will affect all of them, even with shared vision.

Because it is. Itachi doesn't have a Rasen Shuriken or a Tailed Beast Bomb to help him out this time.

[321zigzag3]

Chibaku Tensei partial formation survived KN6 tailed beast bomb, which was massive multi city block size to very small mountain buster.

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

Plus read what Noctis said, going by that logic YM may have the potential to break through it anyways, then GG the paths and now it's Itachi vs Deva Path

That long range move, we don't know how strong it is.

Also, Itachi needs MS especially Susanoo and Amaterasu to finish the Paths. His Base skills aren't just enough in general partially because of shared vision and durability.

Other than genjutsu which is still not the most effective when its 6 on 1.


Itachi's Susanoo is the main reason why he can survive in the end.

Tsukiyomi is debatable only if the effects can transfer to Nagato the main body which not everyone believes.

Also genjutsu on one body doesn't effect the rest unless it is an area of effect.

The bodies share only vision not minds, and only because Nagato is looking through all of their eyes.

The paths are separate from each other.

[TheBlackChidori]

Several reasons.

Itachi obliterated Nagato's strategy without any knowledge of him, while simultaneously saving Bee and Naruto.

Made the soul-sucking useless with a couple Kunai to the eyes. Found CT's weakness in a couple seconds, then managed to sword blitz him. (Oh but it came out of the smoke TBC, it doesn't count). Bullcrap. Nagato is supposed to be a high tier ninja, he should know to DODGE when the smoke clears.

Couple that with Yata mirror basically rendering most of Nagato's paths useless, Amaterasu takes care of all the summons, and Nagato hasn't shown that he can resist Tsukiyomi. No jutsu has ever worked on Itachi, even Toad Mouth Trap. He ripped through that with Amaterasu.

Nagato only wins this fight if he starts with prep, IE 6 Paths of Pain and his real body having distance from the main fight. But Itachi proved that with no prep, he's the better Shinobi.

No one's dodged Totsuka Sword yet. Why is that? Because as it stands, there's no feat to resist it. There's also the fact that Itachi had Shisui's eye before giving it to Naruto.



And if you're saying Tsuki won't work, prove it. Because Frog Song worked. Chakra receivers mean that everything that affects the bodies is going to affect Nagato himself. Genjutsu is chakra interference. They share vision, so if one path falls to prey to it, they're all going to see it. Frog Song didn't affect all the bodies because it is Genjutsu through hearing, not sight.

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Made the soul-sucking useless with a couple Kunai to the eyes. Found CT's weakness in a couple seconds, then managed to sword blitz him. (Oh but it came out of the smoke TBC, it doesn't count). Bullcrap. Nagato is supposed to be a high tier ninja, he should know to DODGE when the smoke clears.

You mean Hell Realm's ability? Which is mainly interrogation which limits the soul sucking?

Its not human paths. Yeah no.

Nice ignoring that Kabuto commented Nagato's lack of mobility.

Couple that with Yata mirror basically rendering most of Nagato's paths useless, Amaterasu takes care of all the summons, and Nagato hasn't shown that he can resist Tsukiyomi. No jutsu has ever worked on Itachi, even Toad Mouth Trap. He ripped through that with Amaterasu.

Yeah Susanoo is the only real thing Itachi had.

Too bad Amaterasu can't be spammed repeatedly due to stamina issues.

He has plenty of summons too.

Nagato only wins this fight if he starts with prep, IE 6 Paths of Pain and his real body having distance from the main fight. But Itachi proved that with no prep, he's the better Shinobi.

No.

Itach is a better ninja but anyway are now implied around similar tier.

And if you're saying Tsuki won't work, prove it. Because Frog Song worked. Chakra receivers mean that everything that affects the bodies is going to affect Nagato himself. Genjutsu is chakra interference.

Toad Song apparently did affect Nagato? No it didn't. We didn't even see him in genjutsu.

@bolded which is why Nagato turned into stone along with Preta Path.
No he did not.

They share vision, so if one path falls to prey to it, they're all going to see it. Frog Song didn't affect all the bodies because it is Genjutsu through hearing, not sight.

This argument only works if, Tsukiyomi affects the main body. If it does then all bodies get hit.

But if its only limited to one body the rest don't get affect if Nagato doesn't get affected.

The bodies only share vision because Nagato is looking through all them.

The bodies themsevles aren't connected to each other.

[Kuromaki]

@ziggy That's the point I've been trying to make about genjutsu.

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

Several reasons.

Itachi obliterated Nagato's strategy without any knowledge of him, while simultaneously saving Bee and Naruto.

Made the soul-sucking useless with a couple Kunai to the eyes. Found CT's weakness in a couple seconds, then managed to sword blitz him. (Oh but it came out of the smoke TBC, it doesn't count). Bullcrap. Nagato is supposed to be a high tier ninja, he should know to DODGE when the smoke clears.

Couple that with Yata mirror basically rendering most of Nagato's paths useless, Amaterasu takes care of all the summons, and Nagato hasn't shown that he can resist Tsukiyomi. No jutsu has ever worked on Itachi, even Toad Mouth Trap. He ripped through that with Amaterasu.

Nagato only wins this fight if he starts with prep, IE 6 Paths of Pain and his real body having distance from the main fight. But Itachi proved that with no prep, he's the better Shinobi.

No one's dodged Totsuka Sword yet. Why is that? Because as it stands, there's no feat to resist it. There's also the fact that Itachi had Shisui's eye before giving it to Naruto.



And if you're saying Tsuki won't work, prove it. Because Frog Song worked. Chakra receivers mean that everything that affects the bodies is going to affect Nagato himself. Genjutsu is chakra interference. They share vision, so if one path falls to prey to it, they're all going to see it. Frog Song didn't affect all the bodies because it is Genjutsu through hearing, not sight.

This is the six paths vs. Itachi. Hence why I said Pain and not just Nagato. I actually think Itachi stands a better chance of winning a fight with Nagato than with the paths, but that's for another time.

Shisui's eye no longer applies because a. it was placed in Naruto and b. It's scripted to protect Konoha, which Pain can very well do without having to lose to Itachi.

Anyway, don't they get prep? It's a tier debate.

Frog Song worked because it paralyzes anyone who hears it.

[321zigzag3]

Healthy Nagato's lack of real mobility actually screws him against Itachi. Sure he is more powerful than the Paths in terms of jutsu execution and power, but the only downside compared to the Paths are lack of mobility. Which really hurts him.

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

Wall of text

I don't think I need to repeat the toad song incident, they got caught and were killed. Preta revived them.

paths can revived, which means they mortal(in an unconventional sense, more like objects if you will ), which means they can die

I never said he would be able to,but that depends if they are bunched up like when they fought naruto or if they split up like when they fought jaraiya.

But obviously there is a disconnect between our train of thought. You must think even if itachi could catch a few and decommission them, he's still be stomped by whoever was left.

While in my mind, I'm thinking once the reviver is dead,the rest fall like a house of cards. The summons are killed by susano sword. Susano tanks shinra tensei and the sword pierces deva. etc etc etc

I <3 you kuro,but our definitions are just different.

[Kuromaki]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

Healthy Nagato's lack of real mobility actually screws him against Itachi. Sure he is more powerful than the Paths in terms of jutsu execution and power, but the only downside compared to the Paths are lack of mobility. Which really hurts him.

This leads me to question why Nagato is far above Itachi on the list, but the Pains aren't.

Originally Posted by Bacon

I don't think I need to repeat the toad song incident, they got caught and were killed. Preta revived them.

paths can revived, which means they mortal(in an unconventional sense, more like objects if you will ), which means they can die

I never said he would be able to,but that depends if they are bunched up like when they fought naruto or if they split up like when they fought jaraiya.

But obviously there is a disconnect between our train of thought. You must think even if itachi could catch a few and decommission them, he's still be stomped by whoever was left.

While in my mind, I'm thinking once the reviver is dead,the rest fall like a house of cards. The summons are killed by susano sword. Susano tanks shinra tensei and the sword pierces deva. etc etc etc

I <3 you kuro,but our definitions are just different.

It wasn't really a wall compared to the walls of text I just faced. ._.

They got caught because it's sound based and it affects all who hear it. Except for the users, naturally.

It's not that easy. They can move around and attack. I feel like people here are imagining that the six Pain will stand there and let the sword hit them, assuming Itachi even used Susanoo to start off and that they gave him the opportunity to use it.

Also, Deva and Naraka take priority above the rest, which is why they appeared to be at the back of the formation against Naruto.

[Super Sanin 3]

I think it depends on the scenario, I think the reason the paths are good in a debate is that they share a common 1 hit killer, CT and since Deva Path is less likely to die before using it, then he auto-wins IIRC he had to get closer to Nagato to be able to but since that's negated here he's assumed to not need to, what's the best combo though? 6 paths of Pein then Nagato himself

[TheBlackChidori]

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3

You mean Hell Realm's ability? Which is mainly interrogation which limits the soul sucking?

Its not human paths. Yeah no.

It's the same thing basically. Nagato was using all the bodies abilities and was attempting to rip Naruto's soul out of it's body. Itachi stopped it with Kunai. So what's it matter?

Nice ignoring that Kabuto commented Nagato's lack of mobility.

You can't use that, because after he absorbed KB's chakra, he was moving just fine. He went into Prime mode.

Yeah Susanoo is the only real thing Itachi had.

Too bad Amaterasu can't be spammed repeatedly due to stamina issues.

He has plenty of summons too.

We're not using stamina as an issue here. You're talking about an Edo Tensei'd Nagato, so Edo Tensei'd Itachi works just as well. So far they have no stamina limits. Unless this debate is about diseased, dying blind Itachi. In which case, that's a little bit too one-sided, don't you think? I do.

Toad Song apparently did affect Nagato? No it didn't. We didn't even see him in genjutsu.

It affected multiple paths, rendered them incapable of fighting until they were revived. Therefore it affected Nagato.

@bolded which is why Nagato turned into stone along with Preta Path.
No he did not.

We're not talking about nature chakra here. That was solely used on Preta Path. Had Nagato absorbed that energy with his main body, he too would have had the same thing happen to him. As I said, if Nagato is miles away hidden in a tree, he has a huge advantage.

This argument only works if, Tsukiyomi affects the main body. If it does then all bodies get hit.

But if its only limited to one body the rest don't get affect if Nagato doesn't get affected.

The bodies only share vision because Nagato is looking through all them.

The bodies themsevles aren't connected to each other.

What? They're not connected to eachother? What the hell is the point of the chakra receivers? When any path of pain uses an attack, it's Nagato supplying the chakra. Therefore they're connected.

An example is all the bodies dropping to the ground so Deva Path could use CST. Now if this happens, which is really Pain's only chance of beating Itachi, it becomes one on one, and Deva Path alone was defeated by base Naruto, so I'm sure what is basically EMS Itachi, won't have a problem.

This is the six paths vs. Itachi. Hence why I said Pain and not just Nagato. I actually think Itachi stands a better chance of winning a fight with Nagato than with the paths, but that's for another time.

Shisui's eye no longer applies because a. it was placed in Naruto and b. It's scripted to protect Konoha, which Pain can very well do without having to lose to Itachi.

Anyway, don't they get prep? It's a tier debate.

You're making this battle so one-sided.

Pain gets all 6 paths, Nagato away at a safe distance, Itachi gets his Shisui eye taken away which he had up until around his fight with Sasuke, and I doubt it had any specific script at that point.

Which still makes me wonder why he didn't just use it on Madara, but w/e I won't get into that.




What matters in this fight is where is Nagato? Because if he's on the battlefield with the paths, Itachi can just go after him with Totsuka and end everything.

Amaterasu completely works on everyone in this fight except Deva Path. The only reason "Nagato" was able to push it away is because he had the Deva powers on his own. The other 5 paths don't.


Either way, Pain get's all bodies to start, then Itachi starts in a fully formed Susano'o, since he has prep. On top of that, he has exploding clones that are each capable of taking a body out, so I guess he can place a few of those around too. And on top of being on top of that, there's the starting distance, completely in range for Totsuka sword from the get go.

We can't start getting into the debate of whether or not Totsuka would even work on the bodies. That would be dumb cause none of us have any facts to support our argument.

That's why this is a neverending debate, because matter's of souls and genjutsu resistance comes into play, and neither of us has any solid concrete evidence stating that Jutsu A would work against Opponent B.

[TheBlackChidori]

In regards to the tier list, I'll comprimise putting them as equal with Pain's name up top, but do I think Pain is stronger? No.

I think Itachi was a much stronger ninja then Naruto was at that time, even with the help of Sage Mode and Kyuubi. He's also much more intelligent, no one can argue that.

[heroeking]

Itachi easily seals up Pain, since he has knowledge

[321zigzag3]

Originally Posted by Bacon

I <3 you kuro,but our definitions are just different.

To sum it up, you are just saying Susanoo rampage mainly.

Originally Posted by Kuromaki

This leads me to question why Nagato is far above Itachi on the list, but the Pains aren't.

Also, Deva and Naraka take priority above the rest, which is why they appeared to be at the back of the formation against Naruto.

Nagato is overall more powerful but he is more suited to face Itachi with Pain.


The funny thing, other than Amaterasu or Totsuka sword, Itachi has nothing to take on Animal Path's summons and Asura Path.

Even Human Path is much superior in strength and durability to Itachi.

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

It's the same thing basically. Nagato was using all the bodies abilities and was attempting to rip Naruto's soul out of it's body. Itachi stopped it with Kunai. So what's it matter?

You can't stop Human Path's ability with kunai.

Human Path just rips the soul with mere touch.

Hell Path is the one with the Hell King Enma.

You can't use that, because after he absorbed KB's chakra, he was moving just fine. He went into Prime mode.

No he didn't, Nagato didn't really move. He was at the same spot. What are you talking about?

The only time he "moved" per say was when he tossed Killerbee aside like a ragdoll.
Just because chakra restored health, still doesn't mean automatci regain usage of legs all the way which is why Kabuto said lack of mobility.

We're not using stamina as an issue here. You're talking about an Edo Tensei'd Nagato, so Edo Tensei'd Itachi works just as well. So far they have no stamina limits. Unless this debate is about diseased, dying blind Itachi. In which case, that's a little bit too one-sided, don't you think? I do.

Except there is this idea that Edo Tensei provides infinite chakra, I am not sure though.

It affected multiple paths, rendered them incapable of fighting until they were revived. Therefore it affected Nagato.

Yet we don't know that.

We're not talking about nature chakra here. That was solely used on Preta Path. Had Nagato absorbed that energy with his main body, he too would have had the same thing happen to him. As I said, if Nagato is miles away hidden in a tree, he has a huge advantage.

You yourself said genjutsu will travel through the receivers.

Preta Path absorbs, its effect has to travel back to Nagato by what you are saying. No?

What? They're not connected to eachother? What the hell is the point of the chakra receivers? When any path of pain uses an attack, it's Nagato supplying the chakra. Therefore they're connected.

The chakra receivers, receive chakra from Nagato only. The chakra isn't connected to each other.

Why do you think only Preta was affected? By your logic Deva Path should have turned into stone too.

An example is all the bodies dropping to the ground so Deva Path could use CST. Now if this happens, which is really Pain's only chance of beating Itachi, it becomes one on one, and Deva Path alone was defeated by base Naruto, so I'm sure what is basically EMS Itachi, won't have a problem.

You mean chakra depleted Deva vs Base Naruto with knowledge but you are correct. But again its not DBZ nor A>B>C strictly.

What matters in this fight is where is Nagato? Because if he's on the battlefield with the paths, Itachi can just go after him with Totsuka and end everything.

Amaterasu completely works on everyone in this fight except Deva Path. The only reason "Nagato" was able to push it away is because he had the Deva powers on his own. The other 5 paths don't.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TheBlackChidori

In regards to the tier list, I'll comprimise putting them as equal with Pain's name up top, but do I think Pain is stronger? No.

I think Itachi was a much stronger ninja then Naruto was at that time, even with the help of Sage Mode and Kyuubi. He's also much more intelligent, no one can argue that.

Nagato is overall stronger minus the lack of mobility but Pain is more suited to fight Itachi in comparison.

That was mainly intelligence.

Originally Posted by heroeking

Itachi easily seals up Pain, since he has knowledge

This is obvious but if Pain has knowledge it changes things.

[LUCKY.KAKASHI]

Originally Posted by Super Sanin 3

I think it depends on the scenario, I think the reason the paths are good in a debate is that they share a common 1 hit killer, CT and since Deva Path is less likely to die before using it, then he auto-wins IIRC he had to get closer to Nagato to be able to but since that's negated here he's assumed to not need to, what's the best combo though? 6 paths of Pein then Nagato himself

i dont know why u r assuming that nagato stand 2 far away from Deva path !