Why is being a pedophile a mental disorder, but being gay isn't

[sasu_girl]

sasu likes vornie's answer xD

it sounds smart O.o

[Wooster]

The crux of the matter is until recently children were consider just chattel like women and pretty much everyone that did not own a piece of land. So Vorn is even more right than he knows( amzing though that seems ) There are often few laws regarding getting your jollies off on things like rocks or children.

This has been a message by the Wooster. Always here to explain the wisdeom of the ages.

[deidara330]

*Sigh* I agree with Vornmusion's answer, basically.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by [Shikamaru]

Common sense. There is a difference.

A child is incapable of making a choice, and simply isn't attracted to anyone yet. It's a matter of protecting the innocent party, the child.

Men on men is a choice by both parties. It doesn't matter if it's immoral. They're both grown adults, what they do with each other is under the judgement of only morals.

kinda what I said.

[Ino's Girl]

Vorn's answer seems logical

[king kakashi]

vorn's answer is the only on that make sense

[boman265]

I don't care how book smart you were at 11 your sexual maturity does have an internal timer. Maturity in one area doesn't carry over to another. And there are some things you will only learn with time and experience. Its important to have a line somewhere because we don't want 20 year olds screwing 12 year olds. That 12 or 13 year old has so much more to experience how could you ever find some common ground with them? I'm not talking about 18 year old and a 15 year old even. But don't go so far as to say gay people are no different then the predators we see on dateline. People who were sexually abused at a young age are more likely to do it then some one who isn't. Even if they weren't necessarily initially attracted to people younger then them through genetics. Do not fall for this guys garbage because he wrote a lot and used big words. People we respect in history had slaves. But I'm not gonna sit here and justify it. They also had sex with siblings and first cousins. I don't condone that either. Sexual maturity may come quickly for women like around 13 and society in the past may of had an average life span that made it acceptable. But it has no place in this modern era so don't compare a person who likes some one of the same sex to some one who is sexually attracted to children. I believe we can be smarter then the people before us. They may be similar in that each have genetic factors playing a role in certain situations but similarities stop there. Maybe each should fall under the same category of disorder. But being a paedofile is defiantly wrong. I cant believe people could sit here and actually agree that paedophiles just had a bad rap and that we need to learn to accept them in the same way as gay people.

[mrsticky005]

Pedophiles are a bad comparison.

It would be better to ask something like...

Why is being gay ok but sibling incest is not?

[Vornmusion]

Originally Posted by boman265

I don't care how book smart you were at 11 your sexual maturity does have an internal timer. Maturity in one area doesn't carry over to another. And there are some things you will only learn with time and experience. Its important to have a line somewhere because we don't want 20 year olds screwing 12 year olds. That 12 or 13 year old has so much more to experience how could you ever find some common ground with them? I'm not talking about 18 year old and a 15 year old even. But don't go so far as to say gay people are no different then the predators we see on dateline. People who were sexually abused at a young age are more likely to do it then some one who isn't. Even if they weren't necessarily initially attracted to people younger then them through genetics. Do not fall for this guys garbage because he wrote a lot and used big words. People we respect in history had slaves. But I'm not gonna sit here and justify it. They also had sex with siblings and first cousins. I don't condone that either. Sexual maturity may come quickly for women like around 13 and society in the past may of had an average life span that made it acceptable. But it has no place in this modern era so don't compare a person who likes some one of the same sex to some one who is sexually attracted to children. I believe we can be smarter then the people before us. They may be similar in that each have genetic factors playing a role in certain situations but similarities stop there. Maybe each should fall under the same category of disorder. But being a paedofile is defiantly wrong. I cant believe people could sit here and actually agree that paedophiles just had a bad rap and that we need to learn to accept them in the same way as gay people.

The hypocrisy and irony in this post is of such an extent it is mind boggling. As is the lack of reading comprehension.

[boman265]

Unless you can point out my hypocrisy.....And yeah I understood it as you saying paedophiles just got a bad rap in our society and 12 year olds if they say they are smart enough can screw full grown adults. Also right now 20 year old screwing 12 year old would be classified as sexual abuse at the moment if that's what tripped you up.

I'm saying that's complete crap. I can point out exactly where you said that garbage so don't bash my reading skills. Quit acting like some sort of prodigy because if your as intelligent as you say then go and trade away on the stock exchange and make some freaking money instead of talking to me in a Naruto forum. Plz.

[sasu_girl]

Originally Posted by boman265

Unless you can point out my hypocrisy.....And yeah I understood it as you saying paedophiles just got a bad rap in our society and 12 year olds if they say they are smart enough can screw full grown adults. Also right now 20 year old screwing 12 year old would be classified as sexual abuse at the moment if that's what tripped you up.

I'm saying that's complete crap. I can point out exactly where you said that garbage so don't bash my reading skills. Quit acting like some sort of prodigy because if your as intelligent as you say then go and trade away on the stock exchange and make some freaking money instead of talking to me in a Naruto forum. Plz.

i read it a while ago, so i'll try to reexplain with what little i have retained. he's basically saying that neither really help humans and that your sexual maturity depends on the person. (told you it was only a little. and i'm not even sure that's what he said)

[boman265]

I'm saying it may depend on the person but age as much more to do with it because with age comes experience which is how we turn intelligence into wisdom which is where people get true understanding. I'm never gonna let my 12 year old kid have sex with an adult I don't care what her grades are or how mature she says she is. I'll knock the block off any man who would try such an act.

[sasu_girl]

Originally Posted by boman265

I'm saying it may depend on the person but age as much more to do with it because with age comes experience which is how we turn intelligence into wisdom which is where people get true understanding. I'm never gonna let my 12 year old kid have sex with an adult I don't care what her grades are or how mature she says she is. I'll knock the block off any man who would try such an act.

another point of his. that the way society dictates it is how we look at it. if society for some reason decided it was ok, it would be hammered into our minds that it's ok as well. quite frankly, it's only half way you making the decision. the world you grew up in ultimately decided your opinion on the subject. without it being a rule of society that older men shouldn't sleep with younger women, that's also what you believe.

[Kreegah!!!]

I still find it funny that we look to nature for our rationalizations. Foolishness. Whether religiosity governs your morals or whether it is your empirical belief that mankind is self-actualized (or close to it), the end result is the same: we have a responsibility to improve upon Nature's shortcomings--not defend nor enhance them. Instead of just blindly hop-scotching to the tune of Vornmusion's and others' posts that you do not fully comprehend ("...seems smart"?? Really? Seeming smart is exactly how confidence artists take advantage of you! If you don't understand something, ASK!!), I would suggest you research what exactly was said before replying--then when you reply, add to the theory if you agree with it. Show us any flaws and give ideas to improvement. Nothing wrong with Vorn's statement, guys, but you do him no credit by just being yes-men.

/Rebuke

[sasu_girl]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

I still find it funny that we look to nature for our rationalizations. Foolishness. Whether religiosity governs your morals or whether it is your empirical belief that mankind is self-actualized (or close to it), the end result is the same: we have a responsibility to improve upon Nature's shortcomings--not defend nor enhance them. Instead of just blindly hop-scotching to the tune of Vornmusion's and others' posts that you do not fully comprehend ("...seems smart"?? Really? Seeming smart is exactly how confidence artists take advantage of you! If you don't understand something, ASK!!), I would suggest you research what exactly was said before replying--then when you reply, add to the theory if you agree with it. Show us any flaws and give ideas to improvement. Nothing wrong with Vorn's statement, guys, but you do him no credit by just being yes-men.

/Rebuke

the thing is that on a scientific basis, they're almost exactly the same. a hindrance to the reproduction and survival of man kind. however, if you look on a societal basis, pedophilia's not ok because most parents don't like the idea that their children are having sex with people much older. it's quite disturbing to them. they also usually don't enjoy the thought of two people of the same gender engaging in sexual activities, however both fully know what's happening, so it's a little more accepted just because it's consensual. that's the difference. it's a psychological thing, not scientific.

good enough of my own answer, for you?

[The Second Pornkage]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

I still find it funny that we look to nature for our rationalizations. Foolishness. Whether religiosity governs your morals or whether it is your empirical belief that mankind is self-actualized (or close to it), the end result is the same: we have a responsibility to improve upon Nature's shortcomings--not defend nor enhance them. Instead of just blindly hop-scotching to the tune of Vornmusion's and others' posts that you do not fully comprehend ("...seems smart"?? Really? Seeming smart is exactly how confidence artists take advantage of you! If you don't understand something, ASK!!), I would suggest you research what exactly was said before replying--then when you reply, add to the theory if you agree with it. Show us any flaws and give ideas to improvement. Nothing wrong with Vorn's statement, guys, but you do him no credit by just being yes-men.

/Rebuke

^that sounds smart :P
Naw, but really, I've always been one to follow my own ways rather than go with the flow. Even when an idea seems to be the way to go, you gotta ask yourself "is it really the best way? Or are we all being swept up in the moment? What else could we do, say, believe, try?" Have your own opinions- they're immunity from being told you're wrong.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by sasu_girl

the thing is that on a scientific basis, they're almost exactly the same. a hindrance to the reproduction and survival of man kind. however, if you look on a societal basis, pedophilia's not ok because most parents don't like the idea that their children are having sex with people much older. it's quite disturbing to them. they also usually don't enjoy the thought of two people of the same gender engaging in sexual activities, however both fully know what's happening, so it's a little more accepted just because it's consensual. that's the difference. it's a psychological thing, not scientific.

good enough of my own answer, for you?

The answer itself, or the structure of it???

Society is a tool wielded by flawed individuals, but the tool itself is exactly what we need. Evolution of the body is one thing, but we need to focus on evolution of the mind. What's really best? Best for anyone and everyone? For the universe?

Not really a debate since what's best is a stack of twizzlers and candy straws, but the foundation's there.

[McFly]

Be it a disorder or not. Such a act of disturbance isn't morally correct.

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Vornmusion

Because society is full of hypocritical fools and white knight moronic mentality that the people would rather ignore the scientific facts of the situation. There is nothing different about them on a scientific level. The only reason gays even defend its difference is because of the stigma attached to pedophilia and its virus like tendency to destroy the positive reputation of whatever is related to it.
Perhaps I am socially backwards,but I never once made the connection between the homosexual attraction and being a pedophile. That said, I've seen enough rhetoric claiming that gay people are inherently wrong. Does this be any chance have to do with the Catholic Joke and the Pope being a pedophile?


The difference between them is purely metaphysical, held within the mind of society. Pedophilia has been around since recorded time, and in many of the main civilizations of the past it was accepted in one way or another. Many of Americas founders were pedos by todays standards, as were many of the greatest leaders in human history. Each evolution of society finds another reason to justify their reasons for or against it, when this society falls another will take a place and the process will repeat, and eventually we will come to accept it again, and then again outlaw it. The only argument/excuse against the early days was an short life span on average. Which is faulty on its own anyways because that entire argument is based around the concept of it being dangerous for children to birth children or engage in sexual activity. The physical dangers carry some merit, the risk is increased at an early age. Mental damage however is completely subjective and the only true argument against pedophilia now.
So society blissfully brands pedophiles as monsters due to a subjective ideal that means nothing anymore. Children of today are exposed to sexual content to such an extent that on average a young teenager will do more sexual acts and be more sexually aware of themself and others than their parents were when they reached the legal drinking age.
This is true, but it is a fact of society. Take Slavery for instance, it was avoided by some of America's greatest leaders such as Thomas Jefferson and George washington. But with time and persistence, America joined the modern countries who outlawed slavery,such as Great Britian and France. According to these statements, it is true that pedophilia has been branded as a taboo, but it has not been eradicated. Under the veneer of the western world and in many developing countries, women still are being treated as property in brothels and millions of young women are subject to having husbands who are 2 decades older.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with being wired into thinking that pedophilia is bad. You call people ignorant and sanctimonious, but I merely call consider them to be short sighted. If it were not for this short sighted nature, I would not be enjoying the seemingly liberal world in which I inhabit. For instance, I just realized that it's only been 4 decades since the civil rights movement and all of a sudden, centuries of social standards were all but eradicated in the public spectrum. Now is this wrong? Perhaps to a generation after us,but to me I am comfortable with thinking people are born equal, just as I am comfortable in thinking that an attraction toa 16 year old is bad.

As for this notion of awareness, yes kids are more aware than they lead on sometimes. Yet it is only in the form of what they learn in porn, the great majority of kids that I have met and interacted with only knew what a Clit was,but I doubt they actually went through with the sexual act.
Further more, that it is so wrong and unnatural is an ideal going against genetics. Females are wired to want a male older than themselves because older males will have more worldly experience and will provide better protection (in any meaning of the word) than a younger male. Which also stems back to the more animal like instincts we have, because competition between older males means that a male has to prove themselves a better fit father than the other experienced males. It's akin to the difference between having two cubs fight for you and two lions. It doesn't matter which cub wins, they are still a cub.
Males are wired to want females younger than themselves because younger females have less chances of birth failure and are generally able of producing milk in higher quantities for their children and have more energy to take care of them. They also typically have more eggs being younger, thus able of producing more children.
I would love to see some citing on the evidence on these assertions. Do not get me wrong, they are fluffy and well thought out, but you're asserting baseless as fact and not ever mentioning how this is how you simply, feel.
Its important to remember that pedophilia does not mean a 60 year old man that likes 12 year olds. It means attraction to a specific age group by someone that is outside of said age group. A 16 year old that likes 12 year olds will be classified as a pedo. If you are to get technical and overly anal about it, a 13 year old would be one too, as pedophilia is pre-pubescent children, almost always universally defined as someone between the ages of about 10-12. So yes, that by the definition makes the 13 year old a pedo. What a monster.
In short, the stigma against pedophilia is a bunch of bullshit crap that holds society back from reflecting that it itself has made their children exactly what they hated pedos from doing--becoming sexually aware beings. That is why everything involving them needs to be on a case by case basis.

A long time ago I was already helping my father invest in the stock market and thinking of how best to manage my retirement fund with the current economic rates, and making corrections based on an assumed future of the economy. And then I had to take a gander at the housing market of course since that would be one of my biggest investments toward myself. Weighing my assumed average pay at that period of time against a variety of factors. Plus I had to consider my family and their expenses and to make sure I had money to live comfortably while maintaining a future for myself and my children--such as college funds. One part of a great many calculations and possibilities I thought of, and still do.

Why did I tell you all of that? Because I started doing that when I was 11. And people have the nerve to tell me I wasn't mentally developed enough to consent to sex? Go screw yourself, so you were a typical dumbass 11 year old, yay, not everyone develops at the same rate. I skipped the teenage years and moved right to 20+. Which is why now at the age of 19 I mentally feel 30 and all the glorious tiredness that comes with it. Constant stress of life does that to you. I knew damn well what it meant to have sex, and even more so with someone far older than me.
Someone thinks he's better than a lot of people. I personally prefer to beleive that my knowledge is limited and that I have the ability to be sceptical, rather than being smarter simply because I do not accept facts for their face value.
Back to the main topic though, we do have cases of 60 year old men going after 12 year old girls. The difference is judging whether the girl is capable of actually giving consent with understanding. As it is, there are more than enough cases of this happening and the child defending their actions. All of which is thrown aside under the guise of the child not being mature enough to know shes/hes been "duped" into thinking they had something special. When no one infact knows anything. People would of told me the same thing, completely ignoring the fact that I was very much aware of the differences between sex and love. And then someone innocent would of been thrown to rot in prison, and then later ruined forever with the sex offender branded on their record. I knew of a relationship like this, said relationship eventually led to them being married and having children after the younger one was older. And now they are content and happy. Freaks. That doesn't mean every case is wrong and that every pedo is a friendly misunderstood person. There are plenty of people that do bad things to children. That problem however isn't because they are a pedo, the problem is themself. We don't call people that rape women anything other than a rapist. We call people that rape children pedos, and this is the wrong use of the term and you will often find that researchers and psychologists that have knowledge of this field will say the same thing. For the same reason calling someone that has sex with a toddler a pedo is wrong. That isn't a pedo, they have another term for it, because the mindset of the person is completely different. A pedo only likes pre-pubescent children in the age range of about 9-12. You can't compare someone that likes 12 year olds sexually to someone that likes infants sexually. The mindset and psychology involved are completely different. Those that do compare them equally are fools and do not understand anything about the science behind it and should go under a rock in shame for making our species that much worse. If you are one of those people, then pat yourself on the back, you're like the other billions of morons.
Bravo for being technical with your words,but having sex with any child is simply wrong in mine and millions of other people. Fyi: I doubt you understand all the cultural difference of your native country.(which I am asuming is the united states)Which means you shouldn't brand the Asian continent, the overlooked african continent, Europeans, central Americans, south armericans, and so on and so forth.
The point is that pedophilia has an automatic stigma attached to it that is full of so many holes that it makes Swiss cheese blush. Anything positive or logical about it is thrown aside for the sake of trying to make our species look better. And that's all it comes down to in the end, people not wanting to accept what we are. Which ties into the struggles of the gays.
Or might I remind everyone that in the past being gay was considered (among many, many other equally undesirable things) a mental disorder?

You asked what the difference between them was. Nothing.
I agree and find a lot of this funny because the Spartans who laid the foundation for "Democracy's infancy" allegedly believed gay love to be more tender than heterosexual love.
/Rant

I liked to read your point of view vorn,but you come off as arrogant jerk. :3

[Demonfire_Ninja]

First I have to say that paedophilia (and YES you can spell it that way) is in no scientific way related or linked to homosexuality, second I also have to say that the reason some people link that two things subconciously is that the persecution of homosexuality is a common arguement of those who support paedophilia, that since homosexuality was once considered an intellectual disability that people are wrong about paedophilia.

I would also like to state that amazingly our current civilization is one of the first to EVER have laws about the legal minimum age that someone should have sex, this is really an interesting thing, although to be completely honest I think that it is an effect of social progress and evolution.

I think that moving forward is a good thing but also that the current stigma that self revealed paedaphiles (who have not commited any crime) face is rediculous and only compounds the problem, paedaphiles should be able to reveal themselves and get help with controlling their emotions and feellings that they are not allowed to act on in our current society (which I believe is right by the way) instead of being beaten, abused and killed for revealing that they have these emotions that they just can't control.