Bleach Chapter 455 and beyond prediction

[mrsticky005]

Ichigo and Tsukishima will fight. Whoever else is there will try to prevent the fight but Tsukishima will convince them that it is necessary for some reason.

They fight.

Ichigo gets the upper hand is about to kill Tsukishima. But instead of just killing him Ichigo demands that Tsukishima reverse the spell on his friends
or else he will kill Tsukishima. Tsukishima will grin and then force Ichigo
to kill him. Tsukishima will be dead and it won't do nothing.

Everyone will now think Ichigo is murderer.

Ichigo and Ginjou are now the "badguys".

Ichigo now has but one choice left to go to fix the situation and
reverse the spell on his friends...He'll have to get help from...

That's right. Aizen.

Ichigo and Ginjou will have to sneak into the Soul Society to
break Aizen out of jail so they can use Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu
to reverse the spell put on Ichigo's friends and Ginjou's friends.

craziness happens.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Ichigo and Tsukishima will fight. Whoever else is there will try to prevent the fight but Tsukishima will convince them that it is necessary for some reason.

They fight.

Ichigo gets the upper hand is about to kill Tsukishima. But instead of just killing him Ichigo demands that Tsukishima reverse the spell on his friends
or else he will kill Tsukishima. Tsukishima will grin and then force Ichigo
to kill him. Tsukishima will be dead and it won't do nothing.

Everyone will now think Ichigo is murderer.

Ichigo and Ginjou are now the "badguys".

Ichigo now has but one choice left to go to fix the situation and
reverse the spell on his friends...He'll have to get help from...

That's right. Aizen.

Ichigo and Ginjou will have to sneak into the Soul Society to
break Aizen out of jail so they can use Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu
to reverse the spell put on Ichigo's friends and Ginjou's friends.

craziness happens.

Great prelude to the next arc: Battling the vile Soul King! Aizen = good guy??? Always was! After all, who did he really murder who wasn't a bad guy or a hollow??? Major Plot turning point!

[Shikamaru Nara]

I still don't get why Aizen is alive throughout the entire story.

[tsuki]

nice theory

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

I still don't get why Aizen is alive throughout the entire story.

He planned it in case of Plan A failure, which still works in his favor. You know how he is.

He bonk-eyed the likely Central 46 replacements to merely imprison him for a long time. He could have made for a full pardon, but nobody'd be fooled by that.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Kreegah!

Great prelude to the next arc: Battling the vile Soul King! Aizen = good guy??? Always was! After all, who did he really murder who wasn't a bad guy or a hollow??? Major Plot turning point!

yes eventually it goes there

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru Nara

I still don't get why Aizen is alive throughout the entire story.

His powers prevents him from death via regeneration. He can still die, with Yama's help, but 46 overrules the Captains.

[Kreegah!!!]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

yes eventually it goes there

There is another option, too. According to Kubo's new book, the two Espada in hell are the same two who were in the non-canon (supposedly) manga. What's strange is these hollows do not just feed upon other hollows, but are also many hollows folded in upon each other. What's the point of this long road to nowhere, you ask? Well, there's no indication that the largely unconscious majority of a compound hollow's constituent parts are culled from the dominating personality before the imprisonment. How is that even remotely fair? So there could be a stint there (unless that's covered in the movie--haven't seen it). Or, that could just be yet another thing the Soul King's guilty to: lazy judgments.

Can't wait either way!

[tsuki]

One thing I'd like to say. Can't the Soul society mess with the memories of humans. I seem to remember Rukia doing it a number of times. So would Ichigo really have to go to Aizen?

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by tsuki

One thing I'd like to say. Can't the Soul society mess with the memories of humans. I seem to remember Rukia doing it a number of times. So would Ichigo really have to go to Aizen?

Aizen's Zanpakuto affects perception, not memory, so it wouldn't be able to help any more than any other Zanpakuto anyways. They do have memory wipers, but it only works short-term and subjects with strong enough spiritual awareness can recall the memories shortly after it's used. As I see it, the only way to fix this is to force Tsukishima to do it himself or to trick him into revealing how to undo it. Killing him really won't help.

Let's not forget Tsukishima also has plans for Ichigo, and now Ichigo and Kugo are the only ones trying to stop him. Drop Kugo, weaken Ichigo, plan complete. It's not hard. Of course, Yukio's in the room, so he has to wait for Ichigo and Ginjo to attack first, which he should expect will happen since they have no other options. Moe should also be there, so if Moe has a Fullbring, he might try and protect Tsukishima from an attack. Tsukishima is likely to stop him because he shouldn't be able to put Moe in people's memories and thus Yukio is going to get suspicious if Moe is a Fullbringer. Although in that case, Tsukishima will just pass him off to Yukio and the others as a new recruit, meaning Fullbringer.

[tsuki]

Moe is the one who attacked Orihime right? I think kubo forgot about him, xP

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by tsuki

Moe is the one who attacked Orihime right? I think kubo forgot about him, xP

He made an appearance in "The Dark Beat 2". I think it's just because he doesn't do anything without orders and he doesn't leave the mansion much. Whether or not he's a Fullbringer he should be more important in upcoming chapters. He can fight more, too, since there won't be any girls involved.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Aizen's Zanpakuto affects perception, not memory, so it wouldn't be able to help any more than any other Zanpakuto anyways. They do have memory wipers, but it only works short-term and subjects with strong enough spiritual awareness can recall the memories shortly after it's used. As I see it, the only way to fix this is to force Tsukishima to do it himself or to trick him into revealing how to undo it. Killing him really won't help.

Let's not forget Tsukishima also has plans for Ichigo, and now Ichigo and Kugo are the only ones trying to stop him. Drop Kugo, weaken Ichigo, plan complete. It's not hard. Of course, Yukio's in the room, so he has to wait for Ichigo and Ginjo to attack first, which he should expect will happen since they have no other options. Moe should also be there, so if Moe has a Fullbring, he might try and protect Tsukishima from an attack. Tsukishima is likely to stop him because he shouldn't be able to put Moe in people's memories and thus Yukio is going to get suspicious if Moe is a Fullbringer. Although in that case, Tsukishima will just pass him off to Yukio and the others as a new recruit, meaning Fullbringer.

Well of not the Kyoka Suigetsu then the Hogokyu.Either way Aizen gets involved. Ichigo should kill Tsukishima simply for the fact that it won't help.
Then it's almost as if Ichigo HAS to go to Aizen. Also I think it would be
cooler if Tsukishima's plans failed and Ichigo killed him. Ichigo gets beat
around too much and it's time that Ichigo just demolish someone.
Ginjou should live to keep Ichigo from going too far and killing his friends.

The awesome sauce trio

Ginjou---Good Guy who everyone thinks is a manipulative bastard
Aizen----Bad Guy who is the key to solving this mystery
Ichigo---Insane Guy who knows the truth but nobody believes him


vs

Brainwashed Friends out to avenge their dear "friend" Tsukishima
Bitter Xcution members who see Ginjou as a traitor and a crook
Soul Society in full force to stop the criminals by any means necessary.


It will be epic.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Well of not the Kyoka Suigetsu then the Hogokyu.Either way Aizen gets involved. Ichigo should kill Tsukishima simply for the fact that it won't help.
Then it's almost as if Ichigo HAS to go to Aizen. Also I think it would be
cooler if Tsukishima's plans failed and Ichigo killed him. Ichigo gets beat
around too much and it's time that Ichigo just demolish someone.
Ginjou should live to keep Ichigo from going too far and killing his friends.

The awesome sauce trio

Ginjou---Good Guy who everyone thinks is a manipulative bastard
Aizen----Bad Guy who is the key to solving this mystery
Ichigo---Insane Guy who knows the truth but nobody believes him

vs

Brainwashed Friends out to avenge their dear "friend" Tsukishima
Bitter Xcution members who see Ginjou as a traitor and a crook
Soul Society in full force to stop the criminals by any means necessary.

It will be epic.

I just don't see why Ichigo's father would allow that kind of thing to happen to Ichigo. I also don't see why Tsukishima would plan for Ichigo to regain his powers and then not prepare to face them, unless he had some sort of death wish. And I doubt Tsukishima has a death wish.

Ichigo shouldn't kill Tsukishima. Disregarding morals, torture can be used at the very least, if attempts at interrogation fail, and Ichigo and Ginjo can manage to force Tsukishima to undo what he's done to Ichigo's friends. Of course, torture and interrogation are things that could be used to find out why Tsukishima betrayed Xcution and what Tsukishima planned with Ichigo anyways, both things invaluable in their worth.

At this point, I don't think it'll be so straightforward no matter how it turns out. Orihime and Chad are now defending Tsukishima, and it might even be possible to convince them to stop. Orihime was attacked plainly by Tsukishima and tried to stop Tsukishima from killing someone. Chad first suggested to Ginjo memory manipulation, and attacked Tsukishima earlier, while he was also attacked by Tsukishima within that same hour.

The thing about Tsukishima's power is, if it's as Ginjo described it, Tsukishima can only affect his place in the pasts of people he cuts. He can make it so that people don't remember he attacked them or that people don't remember that he killed because his power would mean he can affect his entire history with a person. However, he can't simply remove from the memories of Xcution the fact that their friends were killed or the fact that their hideout was destroyed, so the only explanation I see is that Tsukishima has now convinced Xcution and Chad that someone else is to blame. The way Yukio spoke, "Isn't it time that we remember," sounds like he's remembering that Tsukishima's their friend, but also sounds like he's remembering who "really" commited murder and betrayed Xcution.

Ginjo said Tsukishima was adding his presence in people's history rather than removing memories, and given that, Tsukishima has to find another person alive to blame on Xcution's misfortunes or else his power shouldn't work so well. It's not Ginjo and it's not Ichigo, so who would it be? I say Urahara or Ichigo's father.

So, even if you're right and Ichigo just kills Tsukishima, do you think that Tsukishima really has taken the evil deeds of his past and moved the blame on to Urahara as a precaution to keep interference out?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

I just don't see why Ichigo's father would allow that kind of thing to happen to Ichigo. I also don't see why Tsukishima would plan for Ichigo to regain his powers and then not prepare to face them, unless he had some sort of death wish. And I doubt Tsukishima has a death wish.

Well actually now I'm thinking Tsukishima doesn't have a death wish
and simply has just underestimated Ichigo. It's like Ichigo said
Tsukishima is an arrogant SOB.

As for Ichigo's father. He's with Urahara doing whatever. It will be lame
if daddy has to come and save the day for baby Ichigo. I dunno what
Isshin and Urahara are up to but I don't want them involved until
AFTER Ichigo kills Tsukishima. When everyone calls Ichigo evil or crazy
Isshin can be one of the few people who believes his son is still good.
Of course he won't be able to prove it but that's the point.


Ichigo shouldn't kill Tsukishima. Disregarding morals, torture can be used at the very least, if attempts at interrogation fail, and Ichigo and Ginjo can manage to force Tsukishima to undo what he's done to Ichigo's friends.

Ichigo should kill Tsukishima because it make things complicated
if things don't work out and the at the 'wost' Tsukishima is dead.
I say no on torture. Beating Tsukishima up a little to get some
answers is one thing. But torture would just make Ichigo look
bad regardless of whether or not his friends think so.
Of course so does killing. But torture is far more malicious.
But besides that it's just too simple. Ichigo tortures Tsukishima
and then Tsukishima reveals the secret and KAZAAM friends are fixed.
That would just be lame and anticlimactic. Sure you can have Ichigo
and Tsukishima fight afterwards but then there's no real conflict.
Kill off Tsukishima and you have a ton of conflict. Which makes for a better story.

Of course, torture and interrogation are things that could be used to find out why Tsukishima betrayed Xcution and what Tsukishima planned with Ichigo anyways, both things invaluable in their worth.

Yeah but it would be dull to find out all those things that way.
Ichigo tortures Tsukishima to talk and then he does. Boring.
I'd rather Ichigo kill Tsukishima and then Ichigo and Ginjou have
to solve the mystery themselves.


At this point, I don't think it'll be so straightforward no matter how it turns out. Orihime and Chad are now defending Tsukishima, and it might even be possible to convince them to stop. Orihime was attacked plainly by Tsukishima and tried to stop Tsukishima from killing someone. Chad first suggested to Ginjo memory manipulation, and attacked Tsukishima earlier, while he was also attacked by Tsukishima within that same hour.

Yeah it's definitely not going to be simple and that's what's great.
I don't think Chad and Orihime would ever hurt Ichigo but I do think
that in their current state of mind that they won't let Ichigo hurt
Tsukishima. Ichigo can't kill his friends so they're an obstacle.
I don't think they can "snap out of it" and they shouldn't.
Ichigo should have to search for the "cure". It doesn't have
to be Aizen but I think Aizen would be the most interesting "cure".


The thing about Tsukishima's power is, if it's as Ginjo described it, Tsukishima can only affect his place in the pasts of people he cuts. He can make it so that people don't remember he attacked them or that people don't remember that he killed because his power would mean he can affect his entire history with a person. However, he can't simply remove from the memories of Xcution the fact that their friends were killed or the fact that their hideout was destroyed, so the only explanation I see is that Tsukishima has now convinced Xcution and Chad that someone else is to blame. The way Yukio spoke, "Isn't it time that we remember," sounds like he's remembering that Tsukishima's their friend, but also sounds like he's remembering who "really" commited murder and betrayed Xcution.

So he can't remove memories? When did it say that? I mean it sounds about right but was that said during Ginjou's explanation of Tsukishima's powers?

Ginjo said Tsukishima was adding his presence in people's history rather than removing memories, and given that, Tsukishima has to find another person alive to blame on Xcution's misfortunes or else his power shouldn't work so well. It's not Ginjo and it's not Ichigo, so who would it be? I say Urahara or Ichigo's father.

Maybe. That could be interesting way to tie those two into the story.


So, even if you're right and Ichigo just kills Tsukishima, do you think that Tsukishima really has taken the evil deeds of his past and moved the blame on to Urahara as a precaution to keep interference out?

It's possible. Though I would still like to see Ichigo and Ginjou become the "bad guys" or at least they can be "corrupted". Maybe Isshin and Urahara are the "bad guys" and Ichigo and Ginjou are the "corrupted followers."

reply in red.

Free Aizen.

[deidara330]

Yeah, Tsukishima's an arrogant SOB. No arguement there. But he mentioned knowing the heights of Ichigo's former powers. Did he really underestimate Ichigo so much as to be unprepared for that?

We should still learn Tsukishima's plan before either happens, or else the mystery of it is anticlimactic, but it could so happen that Isshin and Urahara stop Tsukishima and this ends up being a terrible thing. Urahara mentioned that what they were doing would destroy Ichigo's future, and Tsukishima has some plans for Ichigo.

I know it would be anticlimactic for it to happen, and torture at this point isn't necessarily any better, but hypothetically speaking, it would still be an option. I know it won't happen, either, because Ginjo and Ichigo have both already decided to kill the guy.

Searching for a "cure" would be interesting, but I think Urahara's already planned for it. The most intelligent person in Bleach with ties to Ginjo is plotting something at the exact same time that Tsukishima's taken over anyone with a connection to Ichigo besides himself.

You're right, it's plausable that Tsukishima could remove memories in the process because it was never really said. But it's more likely that Tsukishima can only change memories concerning him, and an easy way to fix the gap in suspicious memory (particularly concerning the Xcution slaughter) is to make the person who did those acts instead be someone all subjects know: Urahara. Ginjo knows Urahara, so perhaps Xcution does as well, and Chad and Orihime have actually had much contact with him. He may not be able to put Urahara in the memory, but the people Tsukishima's affected will naturally fill in the blanks of their own memories and will refuse to use Tsukishima to fill that blank. Tsukishima needs only to tell Xcution that Urahara was behind it all for them to believe him.

So, Tsukishima's got his bases covered. He's manipulated everyone and probably has them all believe that everything he's done was really the fault of Urahara and Isshin (perhaps just Urahara though), and he can certainly convince the supernatural ones that Ginjo and Ichigo are the ones who've really been taken by their evil. Plus he's got a high-speed healer and two combat-central Fullbringers on top of himself. Although, there's still the unknown factor: The unseen Soul Reaper with Urahara and Isshin.

I think I said this in the other thread, but I believe that that Soul Reaper is the parent of the Substitute that Tsukishima killed when he betrayed Xcution. This person likely knows about Tsukishima, as Urahara and Isshin should, and is looking for revenge. This is possibly a way for Tsukishima to die as Ichigo and Ginjo wish without them being scorned by their friends. The Soul Reaper isn't with the duo at the moment, but it could be that he or she was sent out ahead to cause a distraction and give Urahara and Isshin an opening to (whatever the hell they're planning).

Aizen will obviously be brought back into the story. The question is, will it be now, or later? He would certainly explain how Tsukishima and possibly even Ginjo know things about Ichigo that they shouldn't. At the very least, Soul Society or Soul Reapers in it should be getting involved soon.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Yeah, Tsukishima's an arrogant SOB. No arguement there. But he mentioned knowing the heights of Ichigo's former powers. Did he really underestimate Ichigo so much as to be unprepared for that?

I'm hoping he did. I want to see Tsukishima fail.

We should still learn Tsukishima's plan before either happens, or else the mystery of it is anticlimactic, but it could so happen that Isshin and Urahara stop Tsukishima and this ends up being a terrible thing. Urahara mentioned that what they were doing would destroy Ichigo's future, and Tsukishima has some plans for Ichigo.

It's most likely wanting Ichigo's powers. I mean if he wanted Ichigo
dead then he should have killed him BEFORE Ichigo got Fullbring.
But really at this point I don't actually care about Tsukishima's
plans. All I see Tsukishima good for is dying because at "worst"
it beats the bad guy and saves the day making everyone better.
But if all it does is make Ichigo look bad then that's just awesome.


I know it would be anticlimactic for it to happen, and torture at this point isn't necessarily any better, but hypothetically speaking, it would still be an option. I know it won't happen, either, because Ginjo and Ichigo have both already decided to kill the guy.

Thankfully. It might be a "effective" option but it's not too exciting storywise.

Searching for a "cure" would be interesting, but I think Urahara's already planned for it. The most intelligent person in Bleach with ties to Ginjo is plotting something at the exact same time that Tsukishima's taken over anyone with a connection to Ichigo besides himself.

Wait Urahara has ties with Ginjou? Since when?

But as far as I'm concerned Tsukishima has all but done his job.
He just needs to seal the deal to Ichigo's friends that Ichigo is bad.

You're right, it's plausable that Tsukishima could remove memories in the process because it was never really said. But it's more likely that Tsukishima can only change memories concerning him, and an easy way to fix the gap in suspicious memory (particularly concerning the Xcution slaughter) is to make the person who did those acts instead be someone all subjects know: Urahara. Ginjo knows Urahara, so perhaps Xcution does as well, and Chad and Orihime have actually had much contact with him. He may not be able to put Urahara in the memory, but the people Tsukishima's affected will naturally fill in the blanks of their own memories and will refuse to use Tsukishima to fill that blank. Tsukishima needs only to tell Xcution that Urahara was behind it all for them to believe him.


Well having Urahara be the "bad guy" could be cool too. Still I think it would have been better for the Spirit King to be the evil one and
Urahara instead of Aizen was the real arrogant one because it just
flips the whole story around. But as of now I want Ichigo to be the
"bad guy" because it would really test his character. Urahara
has already kinda had experience being a "bad guy" with the Vizards
and being falsely accussed but even when Ichigo was a "criminal"
according to the Soul Society in the first arc he at least knew that
the Soul Society was full of it.



So, Tsukishima's got his bases covered. He's manipulated everyone and probably has them all believe that everything he's done was really the fault of Urahara and Isshin (perhaps just Urahara though), and he can certainly convince the supernatural ones that Ginjo and Ichigo are the ones who've really been taken by their evil. Plus he's got a high-speed healer and two combat-central Fullbringers on top of himself. Although, there's still the unknown factor: The unseen Soul Reaper with Urahara and Isshin.


right now I'm not so much interested with the unseen soul reaper just annoyed.

I think I said this in the other thread, but I believe that that Soul Reaper is the parent of the Substitute that Tsukishima killed when he betrayed Xcution. This person likely knows about Tsukishima, as Urahara and Isshin should, and is looking for revenge. This is possibly a way for Tsukishima to die as Ichigo and Ginjo wish without them being scorned by their friends. The Soul Reaper isn't with the duo at the moment, but it could be that he or she was sent out ahead to cause a distraction and give Urahara and Isshin an opening to (whatever the hell they're planning).

I have no idea who it is. I thought it was Karin but then that's looking to not be the case.

Aizen will obviously be brought back into the story. The question is, will it be now, or later? He would certainly explain how Tsukishima and possibly even Ginjo know things about Ichigo that they shouldn't. At the very least, Soul Society or Soul Reapers in it should be getting involved soon.

I say now. Ichigo, Aizen and Ginjou would make for a great team,
Ichigo and Aizen are polar opposites and Ginjou is a good balance.

reply in red.

[Twilit Lion (Leo)]

I say if it turns out like you predicted sir, then my life is screwed o.o'

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Twilit Lion (Leo)

I say if it turns out like you predicted sir, then my life is screwed o.o'

I'm very sorry to hear that. GO PREDICTION GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Twilit Lion (Leo)]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Dx