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Old 07-18-2013, 10:48 PM   #1
Alter2Ego
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Default Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternityóas punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)



The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankindís common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. Iím referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)



NOTE #1: Whenever the Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically, it indicates cleansing OR permanent death OR permanent destruction. Literal death by burning, when used in the Bible, is never everlasting and is almost immediate. In other words, it takes the usual length of time that it normally takes a person to die in the world.



NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Sheol" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).



NOTE #3: the words "Gehenna" and "the Lake of Fire" as used in the scriptures refers to permanent death from which there is no resurrection.




DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1.
Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?


4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Not being a Bible scholar (which I doubt much of anyone here is) I honestly don't know. Even if I was I'm STILL not sure I would know. It's difficult to think without bias on this topic because on one hand if I say it's NOT literal then it could be taken as trying to make Christianity more appealing by making hell less grueling but on the other hand I may just think that because I've been more USED to the idea of a "literal hell".

Answers to ?s

1. If there is I would say it be in the descriptions of the Lake of Fire.
Of course that is presuming the Lake of Fire is hell and not symbolic

2. What does that have to do with hell? There's a WORLD of difference
between a righteous God burning unrepentant sinners in hell and
sinners on earth burning their own children to a demonic sacrifice.
Well unless of course you're anti-Christian and equivocate the two.

3. But to answer though the questions 2 and 3: "No" and "No".

4. Good question. I would perceive the idea is that Jesus is the exception
to the rule. I mean if Jesus is God, whether hell was literal fire and torture or not
don't you find it a bit absurd that God couldn't visit a place he created?

5. Not sure I get the question

6. Did someone say they're not aware?

7. Ever notice how the soul is temporary when burning but while in bliss it exists eternally?

8. The best definition I could think of is that it's the essence of your being.

What does that mean to burn though? NO CLUE.

Of course it's a much simpler concept if you consider the Lake of Fire to be hell
and believe in the bodily resurrection of the damned.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Being a heretic again? Again with the endless bible talk that cannot be proven by any side, alter2ego?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.
If we assume heaven is real and eternal bliss is real, what's stopping the fire from being real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?
As Sticky said, has nothing to do with Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alter2ego
4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?
To show that he cares for people and everyone's soul and that there's a chance for everyone to repent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alter2ego
5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?
Death -> Grave -> Torment if you're not a good boy

Quote:
Originally Posted by alter2ego
6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware
And who said they weren't aware? Pointless question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alter2go
7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.
It teaches we have immortal soul that can spend eternity in hell or heaven. I don't see why you cannot get that..

Quote:
8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?
Animals do not have souls.
Soul is kinda your spiritual form, essence, your core of being, you as created by god, and your body is just a vessel for it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Read the part of the book of revelation that explains what happens to the the "unholy Trinity." That should answer your question.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Not being a Bible scholar (which I doubt much of anyone here is) I honestly don't know. Even if I was I'm STILL not sure I would know. It's difficult to think without bias on this topic because on one hand if I say it's NOT literal then it could be taken as trying to make Christianity more appealing by making hell less grueling but on the other hand I may just think that because I've been more USED to the idea of a "literal hell".
ALTER2EGO -to- MRSTICKY005:

As you indicated above, you do not know whether or not literal hellfire torment is a Bible teaching. You also mentioned that if hellfire torment is not literal, it could "be taken as trying to make Christianity more appealing."

So let me ask you this: Are you saying that you prefer to believe an untruth, namely, that Jehovah is a sadist, because the untruth provides you with an excuse for rejecting Almighty God? Do you think it is fair to reject someone based upon false information about the individual?
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:26 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post

Answers to ?s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.
1. If there is I would say it be in the descriptions of the Lake of Fire.
Of course that is presuming the Lake of Fire is hell and not symbolic
ALTER2EGO -to- MRSTICKY005:

You are on the right track with Question 1. The Lake of fire is symbolic. This is made clear by the context within which it is used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?
2. What does that have to do with hell? There's a WORLD of difference
between a righteous God burning unrepentant sinners in hell and
sinners on earth burning their own children to a demonic sacrifice.
Well unless of course you're anti-Christian and equivocate the two.
What does that have to do with hell, you ask. Everything. "Do as I say but not as I do" is called hypocrisy. You are telling me that God says it is wrong for humans to burn their children to death, even though once the child is dead, the pain is over. But according to you, it is okay for God to burn people for eternity so that the pain never ends. And for what? For sins committed during a brief human lifespan.

Besides the hypocrisy of God forbidding the ancient Israelites from ritual burning of their children, after which he turns around and commits a far worse deed in the form of eternal torture, there is the matter of justice. Where is the justice in torturing people with fire for eternity--for sins committed during a brief human lifespan? Please tell me.

Perhaps you do not realize that Jehovah is identified as a God of justice?



"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for ALL HIS WAYS ARE JUSTICE. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4)


I will address the remainder of your answers at another time.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Ironically jehova is only a god of justice in name only
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?
4. Good question. I would perceive the idea is that Jesus is the exception
to the rule. I mean if Jesus is God, whether hell was literal fire and torture or not
don't you find it a bit absurd that God couldn't visit a place he created?
ALTER2EGO -to- MRSTICKY005:

You are assuming much. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is also Almighty God--although that is what the Trinitarians claim. Neither does the Bible teach that hellfire torment is literal--although that is what the hellfire howlers claim.

If you want to argue that Jesus is also God--indicating you are a Trinitarian--please present your arguments along that line in my thread dealing with the trinity. Be sure and present evidence from the Judeo-Christian Bible that prove Jesus is also Jehovah. (I prefer four scriptures at a time.) Here is the weblink to the trinity thread.
http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=133152



Question #4 in this thread is preceded by the verses of scripture at (1 Peter 2:21-22). Those verses distinctly say that Jesus committed no sins. Hellfire torment is supposedly for the wicked sinners; remember?

So back to my question: If God created hell, as you asserted above, then why would God send himself to burn for three days in a place of punishment--after stating at (1 Peter 2:21-22) that: "He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth"?



Oh, and by the way, if Jesus is also Almighty God, who was it that resurrected Jesus from the dead?
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:04 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Quote:
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Oh, and by the way, if Jesus is also Almighty God, who was it that resurrected Jesus from the dead?
He resurrected himself.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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He resurrected himself.
So he cam back to life? Is that really a sacrifice if he knew he was going to die, come back 3 days later and be alive again? Is that really a sacrifice?
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You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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So he cam back to life? Is that really a sacrifice if he knew he was going to die, come back 3 days later and be alive again? Is that really a sacrifice?

A being who is omnipotent, omnisciet and omnipresent, who shatters every concept of reality, time and space, who can eradicate existence in an instant, who basically created everything in this world, who can obliterate us for lolz and who has absolutely no need to do anything for us...willingly gets born into humankind as a ''son'' of carpenter and Son of God, then endures years of mortal pain, temptation and suffering, and ends his life on the cross, one of the most gruesome and painful ways to die on Earth, only to show people how much he loves them and then gets revived to show us how he truly is the Messiah and let us know what the true path is; gives us a chance to follow him...and you say it's not a sacrifice?

If you created a culture and a universe, would you die for them to let them know that you care?


EDIT
Jesus knew he'd die.

"The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

He still willingly accepted it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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A being who is omnipotent, omnisciet and omnipresent, who shatters every concept of reality, time and space, who can eradicate existence in an instant, who basically created everything in this world, who can obliterate us for lolz and who has absolutely no need to do anything for us...willingly gets born into humankind as a ''son'' of carpenter and Son of God, then endures years of mortal pain, temptation and suffering, and ends his life on the cross, one of the most gruesome and painful ways to die on Earth, only to show people how much he loves them and then gets revived to show us how he truly is the Messiah and let us know what the true path is; gives us a chance to follow him...and you say it's not a sacrifice?

If you created a culture and a universe, would you die for them to let them know that you care?


EDIT
Jesus knew he'd die.

"The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

He still willingly accepted it.
If he is Omniscience then he knows everything. Which then would make him one stupid God... Unless... The whole point was to use reverse mind tricks like a jedi to make us eat the fruit to know sin, so we could be cursed, feel pain, and yet he know all about it. But did it anyways so he could commit Genocide on the world for lolZ, a boat made by a man and his family with no shipwright skills and build it to hold all those animals and last as well as they did. Also why would he need to take 6 days to create the universe? And by the Universe it seems Earth. He rested on the 7th. For someone with all power, that seems unlikely to rest. And if you can do anything why does it take you 6 days? Unless you have to see it is good first as stated and took time, in which case that is both a providing of him not being Omniscience/all knowing and he is limited.

But when he did he had to actually create it and then he saw it was good. How can that be if he knows everything?

*Creates Light*

"Mhmm... That seems good, yep lets keep it. Not sure why I did not think it was good before.

Or...

He is not Omniscience and in fact put the tree there in the garden instead of somewhere else, when in fact we did not need to have a tree in the first place, only to eat it because of a walking talking snake. Then God Punishes us for his mistake. Well, both, but he knew it would happen and that Satan was there.

So unless he was stupid he is not Omniscience.

Then if he was Omnipresent, then he was there when Adam and Eve saw the same. Or Eve did at least and proceeded to let it happen.

If he was Omnipotent, which he isn't, he would have all power and can do anything. But he can not and I will explain how.

If god can create anything, then he can kill himself. But he is immortal, because he is also all powerful. But if he kills himself, he is no more.

If he can do anything, then he should also be able to make a rock he can not list. Paradox of a sort.

If he is all powerful and can as you state 'shatter reality in an instant' then why does it take a being who knows everything 6 days to create the universe and has to take time to see if it is good?

Also note in the bible it does not say he created us in HIS image, but rather 'Our' imagie. NKJV and BV. Not to forget he is pretty damn sexist in the beginning and in the rest of the OT. It says both "He" and "Us/Our".

God is also limited in that he is not able to lie, obviously he can not control people.

He also seems to not be able to forgive if he himself needs a son to be killed to die for out sins just to be forgiven because he can not just personally tell us what to do.

When he does it involves killing to which can you blame people being 'sinful'?

Also for an all powerful God, why does he not just show himself or beam up his information rather then an old book?

It also stated twice the creation of Man and women. That is odd. Eve was not even created when he told Adam that you need to eat everything but the Tree of Knowledge.

Also if you notice, the serpent and even God himself stated that the Tree of Knowledge was of Good and Evil. So if it opens sin, allowing us to know between both, how can we be blamed for eating a fruit that tells us what is good and what is bad? Basically we where mindless idiots back then. Can't blame us when you know someone will tempt an idiot women to eating a fruit she has no idea about (some how) or knows if it is bad when she knows no bad or good.

He also states this when Walking through the Gardens in the cool of day "Where are you?" Asking for them. How or why would he do that if he is everywhere and knows everything? He would know he eat the fruit, where he was hiding and saw him or felt him via the Omni's. Omnipotent - (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

It also give the God the other two Omni's.

So because we eat the fruit of Knoweldge, we where cursed, We also had a talking snake, God said this and I quote from NKJV.

"Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

I hope I do not need to point out the bad. Because we did not know evil or good, we have no way to know if it was bad when the snake tells us. How can we trust a 'God' who needs worship to feel good about himself if we should eat the tree or not. So because we eat it and know we know good and bad, which is and can be seen as good, we can not eat from the Tree of Life to which we could before? Asinine.

Anyone else notice that the first 5 of the first 10 commandments are about him?

1) Worship only Me.

2) Don't worship shet that ain't Me.

3) Don't talk crap about big G.

4) Take a day off to worship me.

5) Honor your momma and your momma's baby daddy.

6) Don't kill.

7) Don't F around.

8) Don't steal Crap.

9) Don't lie.

10) Don't want crap that ain't yours.

The later added on after Moses was butterfingers and dropped them to kill 3000 people worshiping a false god who was there while Moses and God had their little alone time... If you... Get me. The revisions come!

11) Worship Me.

12) Don't make metal idols.

13) For 7 days eat bread with out yest.

14) All the first born males of your livestock belong to Me.

15) Take a day off and use it to kiss My ass.

16) At the turn of the year, have a party.

17) Have your people come to see me 3 times a year.

18) Don't make any sacrifices containing yest.

19) Bring me your fresh produce.

20) Don't cook a baby goat in his mothers milk.

The last is my favorite. You know, people get off on that stuff.

Wait a sec... In the exodus 20:3 ''You shall have no gods before me.'' Why does it says 'other gods?' Does that mean god was aware of the existence of other gods?

Lol it's so obvious that whoever who wrote that crap was trying to eradicate polytheism and impose one god.

Also I obviously wrote them in my own words, but that is basically what they are.

Also why does God need people to worship him if he is an all powerful God? Seems... Silly, not to forget the petty human emotion he has.

If I created the universe, I would not have had crap hit the fan like this God seemed to have done. I would have not put a F'ing tree in a garden where the guy might eat it with a snake that talks and say "Hey.. .Bro, have anything here but that one there with the snake." No I would have not even created the snake. Then never put the tree there in the first place, hell I would not have made it.

I also would not kick my creations out because they know know good and evil, I would have still loved them.

Also why is it we are still cursed with painful childbirth? Kinda stupid really.

End result,, I would not have done the mistake.

Also in the Tower of Babel, he knocked us down, and put us in different areas and gave different languages, why? Because as he stated "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do: now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."

Then breaks us up, confuses our language and breaks the tower out of spite of what we can do. Why? Because he is an angry child with a magnify glass to ants.

It is not that we can not understand or comprehend him or his powers, it was just we were way to stupid to understand it back then. Funny how everything with him stopped.

So no I do not love or believe in a God that also tells us to kill. "You shall not work one the 7th day, the Sabbath, anyone who does shall be put to death."
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The Homecoming King
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You're captain of the football team and are heavily involved in other sports. You actually get pretty decent grades, but most people don't know that. Most girls really really REALLY want to date you, but you don't notice or care for them. They're just fangirls. Like Sasuke.
You have a cool headed manner, and it almost appears as serious. When you're out in the games playing, you're just as serious but extremely aggressive. This is what leads the NDF football team to victory (lol in reality the team would suck ass but lets just imagine it otherwise)
You're popular and a lot of people look up to you and see you as most likely to win "Best All Around" in the yearbook. You walk into a party and everyone shouts "AYYY IT'S COLLIIIIIN" and you get attacked by high fives by your teammates and crew and hugs by desperate females. But most people don't know a lot about you personally because you don't let anyone in a lot.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If he is Omniscience then he knows everything. Which then would make him one stupid God
This is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
... Unless... The whole point was to use reverse mind tricks like a jedi to make us eat the fruit to know sin, so we could be cursed, feel pain, and yet he know all about it. But did it anyways so he could commit Genocide on the world for lolZ, a boat made by a man and his family with no shipwright skills and build it to hold all those animals and last as well as they did.
You realise that we can never know why and for what purpose he did all that? Do you realise that Bible should not be taken literally?

God constantly gives people chances to correcet themselves. He wiped the planet but still let Noah alive, because he doesn't want us to perish.

God watches how the things unfold. Don't forget that some things come not from the past premise, but of present times. That's a key thing.

God can change his opinion and will at any time, just like how we can. That's free will and that's how we are in his image.

Noah was able to build the Arc because God gave him spiritual guidance. Skills do not apply when God leads you.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also why would he need to take 6 days to create the universe?
You really believe 6 days = 6 x 24 hours here?
He created thing by thing, enjoyed his creation, marveled it and was glad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
And by the Universe it seems Earth. He rested on the 7th. For someone with all power, that seems unlikely to rest.
He did not get tired, he rested in the sense that he finally had peace to gaze upon the world and enjoy the product of his work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
And if you can do anything why does it take you 6 days? Unless you have to see it is good first as stated and took time, in which case that is both a providing of him not being Omniscience/all knowing and he is limited.
No, you're just pulling things out of your ass now.
He created thing by thing. He started from bottom layers and went towards the top.
If I were creating something I'd do the same, I'd spend time for each aspect of it and shape it slowly and enjoy it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
But when he did he had to actually create it and then he saw it was good. How can that be if he knows everything?
So he cannot marvel at his creation and say: ''Damn, I did well!'' ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
*Creates Light*

"Mhmm... That seems good, yep lets keep it. Not sure why I did not think it was good before.

Or...

He is not Omniscience and in fact put the tree there in the garden instead of somewhere else, when in fact we did not need to have a tree in the first place, only to eat it because of a walking talking snake. Then God Punishes us for his mistake. Well, both, but he knew it would happen and that Satan was there.
You do realise that this has been explained ten times to you and other guys here?
You are wanking now.

Let me say it once more.
You. Cannot. Understand. EVER. Why. God. Does. Things. You. NEVER. Will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
So unless he was stupid he is not Omniscience.
Stupidity is tying to understand why God does things when you know you'll never know why.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Then if he was Omnipresent, then he was there when Adam and Eve saw the same. Or Eve did at least and proceeded to let it happen.
Holy Ghost runs through the universe. And he did not turn his head around, or whatnot, he simply let Eve choose.

And you still fail to comprehend Free Will. We have it as god does, we can change our approach at anytime, just like how he does.
He can burn the world now if he wanted, on a whim. That's free will. He doesn't have to know that he will burn the world one day. Knowing what you will do is not omniscient, that's planning things.


Eve could've avoided the Apple, but she still took it. There was a possibility that she would change her mind, and God knows that there is that possibility.

See what I mean? We can do as we please, God knows that and he gave us that gift. That's the most precious gift we have.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If he was Omnipotent, which he isn't, he would have all power and can do anything. But he can not and I will explain how.
He can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If god can create anything, then he can kill himself. But he is immortal, because he is also all powerful. But if he kills himself, he is no more.
You make no sense.
If he is omnipotent and immortal he can kill himself and still be alive, silly you.
Jesus's mortal body died, not his real form. He ascended after his vessel died.
Our bodies will die, too, but our souls remain as our true essence.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If he can do anything, then he should also be able to make a rock he can not list. Paradox of a sort.
Wait what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If he is all powerful and can as you state 'shatter reality in an instant' then why does it take a being who knows everything 6 days to create the universe and has to take time to see if it is good?
You are like a child asking a priest ''r oceans gods teerz?!?!?!?''
Learn to interpret the Bible, Shi.



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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also note in the bible it does not say he created us in HIS image, but rather 'Our' imagie. NKJV and BV. Not to forget he is pretty damn sexist in the beginning and in the rest of the OT. It says both "He" and "Us/Our".
You realise I am the one who told you that in the past thread?
And if they are of the same image, then it's the same crap.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
God is also limited in that he is not able to lie, obviously he can not control people.
Read dozens of free will posts ^.

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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
He also seems to not be able to forgive if he himself needs a son to be killed to die for out sins just to be forgiven because he can not just personally tell us what to do.
Read free will posts. ^
Jesus died so that we could choose OURSELVES. He doesn't want mindless robots.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
When he does it involves killing to which can you blame people being 'sinful'?
It is no sin when God kills. He made it, he will turn it into ash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also for an all powerful God, why does he not just show himself or beam up his information rather then an old book?
You realise he did show himself many times?
Jesus being one example.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
It also stated twice the creation of Man and women. That is odd. Eve was not even created when he told Adam that you need to eat everything but the Tree of Knowledge.
Adam was made first, Eve was made to make him company. And she still knew.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also if you notice, the serpent and even God himself stated that the Tree of Knowledge was of Good and Evil. So if it opens sin, allowing us to know between both, how can we be blamed for eating a fruit that tells us what is good and what is bad? Basically we where mindless idiots back then. Can't blame us when you know someone will tempt an idiot women to eating a fruit she has no idea about (some how) or knows if it is bad when she knows no bad or good.
If were were mindless idiots, we wouldn't have the option to choose to eat or not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
He also states this when Walking through the Gardens in the cool of day "Where are you?" Asking for them. How or why would he do that if he is everywhere and knows everything? He would know he eat the fruit, where he was hiding and saw him or felt him via the Omni's. Omnipotent - (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
Because that's the BIble and men wrote it? And God won't say ''SUP NUGGAH!'' to Adam out of blue. He will call him. He respected us as his creation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
So because we eat the fruit of Knoweldge, we where cursed, We also had a talking snake, God said this and I quote from NKJV.

"Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

I hope I do not need to point out the bad. Because we did not know evil or good, we have no way to know if it was bad when the snake tells us. How can we trust a 'God' who needs worship to feel good about himself if we should eat the tree or not. So because we eat it and know we know good and bad, which is and can be seen as good, we can not eat from the Tree of Life to which we could before? Asinine.
Adam never would have eaten it if Satan was not involved.
Satan, a notch below God in power, and a rather powerful entity who specialises in mind rapery can easily outpower humans with his might. We are nothing to him and he resented us. He voice raped Eve.

In fact, he is so powerful that there was a war in heaven, God sent legions to deal with him. They had to cast him on Earth and enchain him. Who knows how many archangels (who are tiers above reg. angels)

Why didn't he kill him? Who knows, He probably still loves his First Angel.

Lucifer is pretty damn powerful.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Anyone else notice that the first 5 of the first 10 commandments are about him?

1) Worship only Me.

2) Don't worship shet that ain't Me.

3) Don't talk crap about big G.

4) Take a day off to worship me.

5) Honor your momma and your momma's baby daddy.

6) Don't kill.

7) Don't F around.

8) Don't steal Crap.

9) Don't lie.

10) Don't want crap that ain't yours.
Of course, it's his law. And that's how we enter Heaven, by obeying that law. We disobeyed him, now we suffer on Earth, but out of love he gives us a chance to enter Heaven once more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
The later added on after Moses was butterfingers and dropped them to kill 3000 people worshiping a false god who was there while Moses and God had their little alone time... If you... Get me. The revisions come!
Moses dropped teh tables? That's crap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
11) Worship Me.

12) Don't make metal idols.

13) For 7 days eat bread with out yest.

14) All the first born males of your livestock belong to Me.

15) Take a day off and use it to kiss My ass.

16) At the turn of the year, have a party.

17) Have your people come to see me 3 times a year.

18) Don't make any sacrifices containing yest.

19) Bring me your fresh produce.

20) Don't cook a baby goat in his mothers milk.

The last is my favorite. You know, people get off on that stuff.
That's heresy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Wait a sec... In the exodus 20:3 ''You shall have no gods before me.'' Why does it says 'other gods?' Does that mean god was aware of the existence of other gods?
Other gods as in our false god we worship and invented.
Such as let's worship Shisko! or whatever.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Lol it's so obvious that whoever who wrote that crap was trying to eradicate polytheism and impose one god.
It's Judaism and it's philosophy. Every faith states its the only real one and others are crap.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also I obviously wrote them in my own words, but that is basically what they are.
Read above.

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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also why does God need people to worship him if he is an all powerful God? Seems... Silly, not to forget the petty human emotion he has.
Because that's what he wants. We don't know why he does things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
If I created the universe, I would not have had crap hit the fan like this God seemed to have done. I would have not put a F'ing tree in a garden where the guy might eat it with a snake that talks and say "Hey.. .Bro, have anything here but that one there with the snake." No I would have not even created the snake. Then never put the tree there in the first place, hell I would not have made it.
Satan could have entered a sheep easily. Or a lion. But a snake resembles him.
And again, you know not why god does things.


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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
I also would not kick my creations out because they know know good and evil, I would have still loved them.
He doesn't want possible evil in his domain.

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Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also why is it we are still cursed with painful childbirth? Kinda stupid really.
Because that's how our bodies are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Also in the Tower of Babel, he knocked us down, and put us in different areas and gave different languages, why? Because as he stated "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do: now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."
Because we built a tower to a false nonexistent god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
Then breaks us up, confuses our language and breaks the tower out of spite of what we can do. Why? Because he is an angry child with a magnify glass to ants.
No, because we are bad and we get punished for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisko Shi View Post
It is not that we can not understand or comprehend him or his powers, it was just we were way to stupid to understand it back then. Funny how everything with him stopped.

So no I do not love or believe in a God that also tells us to kill. "You shall not work one the 7th day, the Sabbath, anyone who does shall be put to death."
God tells us to kill? You wrote Commandments up there now you say he tells us to kill? Mind boggled.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Well he did command the isrealites to be completely without mercy and destroy everyone and everything in jericho as well as a several other cities sometimes allowing them to take plunder and what is implicit of sex slaves when it comes to the virgins when they're mentioned
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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ALTER2EGO -to- MRSTICKY005:

Oh, and by the way, if Jesus is also Almighty God, who was it that resurrected Jesus from the dead?
He resurrected himself.
ALTER2EGO -to- FňANOR:

Let me see if I got this clear.

1. Are you saying Jesus resurrected himself?

If so, be sure and quote scripture from the Bible where it says Jesus Christ resurrected himself.


OR


2. Are you saying Almighty God Jehovah DIED, after which he resurrected himself back to life?

If so, be sure and quote scripture from the Bible where it says Almighty God died and resurrected himself.


Remember, to prove that your religious beliefs are Bible-based, you need to quote at least one verse of scripture that backs up your claim. Be sure and clearly explain where the verse says what you claim it is saying.


Another thing, please do not quote more than four (4) verses of scripture at a time.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
ALTER2EGO -to- FňANOR:

Let me see if I got this clear.

1. Are you saying Jesus resurrected himself?

If so, be sure and quote scripture from the Bible where it says Jesus Christ resurrected himself.


OR


2. Are you saying Almighty God Jehovah DIED, after which he resurrected himself back to life?

If so, be sure and quote scripture from the Bible where it says Almighty God died and resurrected himself.


Remember, to prove that your religious beliefs are Bible-based, you need to quote at least one verse of scripture that backs up your claim. Be sure and clearly explain where the verse says what you claim it is saying.


Another thing, please do not quote more than four (4) verses of scripture at a time.
Jesus came back to life because he is the Son, he is the god.

You don't need proof for that, because you know yourself he stated he would die and come back after three days. If you say Father revived him on his own that would mean Jesus is not God, and you know Trinity is singular.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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This is ridiculous.
I'm not sure what was more offensive..Shi's utter failure to understand anything about the religion he walked away from...or this ignorant, mule stupid borderline parody level blaspheming apostate...that thinks he knows how to debate religion that calls himself alterego
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

IWD, I think we can conclude that we, as men, can never understand God and his actions by applying to him the laws which he created to begin with.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by setsun View Post
Well he did command the isrealites to be completely without mercy and destroy everyone and everything in jericho as well as a several other cities sometimes allowing them to take plunder and what is implicit of sex slaves when it comes to the virgins when they're mentioned
and to be fair, that was how war was fought back then and you have to remember the morality and mindset of those people who wrote the bible are going to be so primitive as to be alien to us.

The ten commandments have some pretty good stuff to live by in them...don't cheat on your spouse, don't cause someone else to cheat on theirs, don't murder people, don't ignorantly abandon one set of spiritual beliefs for another you know even less of or become so self obsessed or materialistic that it consumes every facet of your life to where it's idol worship (a commandment more than a few people on this forum should have heeded)

Those are very good thing to live by - the sack of Jericho and other stuff like selling your own children into slavery are morally repugnant...and I won't say otherwise but this was in an era where..for example in China the people had just overthrown a dynasty where ritualized human sacrifice was practiced on an industrial like scale not seen anywhere outside of Mexico and people were doing things like boiling people alive in bronze statues...and crucifying women and children as a matter of foreign policy, in India and Africa women were burned alive as sacrifices to their dead husbands and the same goes for Caos frozen northern home. Human rights as a concept was non existent..

in fact you could argue the ten commandments and the Cyrus charter being the first real human rights documents ever published in history.

Again not defending..the horrifically violent parts of the bible..merely stating "thats what the entire world was like..and worse in some parts"that for all the incredibly effed up morally bankrupt nonsense in the bible...these people did try and unify a code of ethics...that were directed towards saving lives.

Also the Jews did not consider non Jews human beings at the same...and I'm pretty sure you can still find some die hard Orthodox Jews who will outright say something like "I would falsely testify and send a hundred gentiles to death row if it meant sparing one guilty Jew because he is of the blood" while it's incredibly rare...they are as a culture and people an incredibly hard, incredibly tough insular people who have endured nearly seven thousand years of persecution that's shaped their out look to be...incredibly harsh,.

Christians I don't think at least the non insane ones don't embrace the old testament as much as the new because of how incredibly cruel and harsh it was..and because they never had such hang ups

as to Shi's comments about the negative aspects of the bible the murder and all..are "wrong" in this case because he is arrogantly using them without any knowledge of the times, the world they lived in or the context of those events...and using it to bash others without really being aware of the other side.

born out of a self defense mechanism prolly. Repeating the typical atheist arguments without really understanding why they work against certain types of Christians and repeating them in a way that makes them strawmen

What Ego's doing is worse though...he is openly doing a disservice to his own religion and making a mockery of the god he believes in by doing so

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Originally Posted by FŽanor View Post
IWD, I think we can conclude that we, as men, can never understand God and his actions by applying to him the laws which he created to begin with.
Well no we can be morally outraged with how cruel nature is...how violent the evolutionary process is and how chaotically brutal and unforgiving the universe tends to be..but then we'd also have to concede that without all that insanity..we wouldn't be where we are...that while we may find those things to be atrocious...they are at times mind numbingly harsh but they are fair and have in the end been a gift..because we are thriving. Still though...what was the point?

there are plenty of criticisms we can level.. and there's nothing wrong with taking moral objections with the bible either

there is..something foolish about trying God for the crimes of those priests who claim to speak its word...the ignorant primitives who wrote a book in its name and then falsified and manipulated and perverted that book that allegedly contains its words...for their own end,.

you can be very angry with that but its foolishness to blame the all mighty and just adopt a stance against fundamentalists and apply it to all Christians

If such an entity exists... it would be impossible..to quantify it in a scientific capacity..and it would be an intelligence too alien to communicate with..much less ascribe our morals too.

That doesn't mean it's immune to judgment by its creations just that...it's creations are only armed with their perspective of reality and nothing else because it's impossible to put yourself in the others perspective and visa versa for the entity we know as god...and that any issue like that is going to be forever in dispute and never resolved..simply because unless of the sheer alienness between both sides


tldr: the issue of taking a moral stance against a creator entity needs to be done with something other than a strawman argument
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

As you said, the universe is a pretty vicious place; you need to fight your way through the perils and hardships which are incorporated in it the day everything was created. It's just violent and by no means friendly; us being an example of it.

You know -- the big fish eats the small one; that's how it is and that's how it's always been and how it always will be. You need to fight if you want to accomplish something or be seen or even have your voice heard in the crowd. The world won't be there to change our diapers and coddle us on our way up. That's the simple rule we all must understand and I guess accept, so that we can free ourselves of constant wish to understand what cannot be understood.

Instead of being grateful that we are here, that we were given a chance to exist, experience the world and all its splendor (be it good or bad, damn it that;s how the world is; there will always be both and we all know it), to create and devise, and to leave a mark in this endless space no matter how small and insignificant it may be...we blame God or fate or something else outside our reach, and it is kind of defeatist in my eyes. Why should I blame a higher power for my own failure? It's what we made of Earth and humanity that put us in the position we are now.

We channel our minds towards something that was not meant for us, towards the things which are out of reach forever. Yes, I know, we should strive, explore and wonder, that is great and I encourage it, but some things...some things... Let's just leave the work of God to God, just like how he left the work of men to us.

As we were given dominance and power over all on Earth, we are responsible for the consequences.

Poverty, war, crime... We do that; not fate. Not god. A religious one could blame the Devil for poisoning the hearts of men, but evil only grows when it's watered.

I say we should (alongside our curiosity and eternal, ancient wish for knowledge which we should never abandon) also try and do more for ourselves and our domain, for we don't have much time. Let us improve as a race and reach as far as we can, let us shine as the ultimate creation of god and the universe; let's leave a damn mark that will forever say ''men were here!'' and let's find peace with ourselves. The rest will come naturally and God's plans shall come true one day.
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