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Old 01-26-2014, 04:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
I actually find that very disturbing,but am skeptical about the ice age point of view. Human activity isn't so benign as you would have it though, it's actually very scary to think an increase of global temperatures is causing the icecaps to melt. In the us alone, 39 percent of us live on coastal banks and would be drastically displaced by a rise in sea levels. I don't think that's nothing to scoff at.
I never said it was benign I said it was mind bogglingly arrogant for us to think we can end all life as we know it.

sure people would be displaced, others would stare, possibly hundreds of millions...the global economy would collapse...there would wide spread cannibalism like you see in North korea

all of this is horrible..but we've survived it before as a species and we'll survive it again if and when it comes


so my point was it's the ultimate display of hubris for us to say that 'we are king makers and game changers" we are...in terms of how we have shaped the worlds surface,...how we have overcome the laws that govern other animals we are masters of our own fate when every other form of life has been..the exact opposite. But as far as the planet goes and most life on it? We are not yet masters of the house and its yard

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Furthermore as you said, it's debateable about how much influence we have. That's the scariest part since humans do wipe out species every year.
we are also in the middle of a massive extinction event of "hold overs" and mammals and birds not easily able to adapt compared to other species...that started at the end of the last ice age...yeah we've retardedly overfished and over hunted our way into that and we need to take conservation steps big time



also treehugger.com? I'm pretty sure if someone here posted a fox news link you'd roar foul

I'd also point out that now adays a lot of extinction happens because of land cleared for farming and housing...and frankly when it comes to human lives..one human is worth more than every whale on the planet as far as I'm concerned
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This is a fact that human activity is causing some massive changes in the world just by living, nevermind something as abstract and fantastical as bringing about an ice age. The planet is a fragile place which has historically revived itself in altered states for aeons. The problem here is it takes millions of years for evolution to take place, something humans don't have time for.
The planet is a fragile place? Wut? No hardly, in fact it's incredibly tough,...hell the mere genesis of our moon speaks volumes for how phenomenally tough our world is. As for our biosphere...again its insanely tough and honestly? The more we look into it...the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs may have mercy killed the tiny few that remained..after something small and irrelevant namely...diseases did the mass genocide.

We live in a violent, unfeeling world where death and suffering has been the catalyst for our rise as a species multiple times. As for us needing millions of years

ninety years ago..mankind was barely flying

now we're engineering wheat that keeps a billion people from starving to death

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it's not as benign as saying, well we'll just live through this ice age and continue on. :3
How the hell is saying that benign? Do you have any idea just what surviving an ice age and moving on entails? Even with our current tech level?

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
By altering the natural equilibrium which was fragile as it was without our activity, we face the sped up possibility of wiping ourselves out before reaching a star trek age of space travel and sci-fi cloning.
The ecosystem survived stuff like the Toba eruption which pushed out more toxic gases and garbage into the air than anything we've done over the last forty years...hell we as a species survived that.

the world will be fine..most life will be fine...its our civilization that may eventually be on the line

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It's true our approach needs to change, but I'm skeptical as to how well we can actually develop cloning technology and space travel in terms of practicality.
Well Bacon I know that despite you using the more fringe parts of my "we have the tech to do this and this" to try and discredit me...believe it or not we've had the capacity to bioengineer our way out of this since the nineteen sixties

the guy I linked above borlaug, and people like him on the frontier of what we can do with our sciences...they have done things like take certain aspects of Scorpion DNA that allow them to ward of pests and then implant them into Cabbage to create a pest resistant strain..or how they can create crops that can sustain themselves in some of the harshest climates around. These people aren't operating in science fiction and what ifs

this is real...industrial scale farming is real...

it can eliminate an enormous amount of our "carbon foot print" and the biggest reason why it isn't is because of the same people who keep talking about how we're gonna murder our mother being..the power brokers behind the movement...think Genetic engineering is evil

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
IN order for green technology to work, you;d have to develop cars and diesel trucks which can sustain their operations during rh day and save a reserve simultaneously for night use. You'd probaby have to harness natural currents, which seems like a maintaence nightmare in itself(forget building it) and win based energy would have to be commercially available and able to power homes with low amounts of wind. Although making our current green energy 10 times more efficient with a fraction of the forces causing the energy to be produced, is no harder than space travel and looking for new worlds to trigun our way to.
We have a perfectly green source of energy that can produce all the power our carbon factories produce and then some..but the environmentalist movement hates it

so instead of embracing Nuclear power we're stuck wasting resources on what you said above..a logistical and technological nightmare

oh and as someone..who has grown up around the farm industry...people who advocate ethanol have no idea the damage the Ethanol crops outside of soy..do to the soil..if they did they'd be howling "drill baby drill" at the top of their lungs

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I would prefer more natural sources as anyone would, but nuclear power is surprisingly green. Saying that by the Bay as I am isn't popular, but even taking construction of other green sources into consideration, it is an attractive option. It needs careful planning and maintenance, but it isn't a Simpsons prone bungle as it's usually portrayed.
I think it needs good inspectors and a large scale program to make it appealing. As long as the safety regs remain as top notch as they seem to be...like you said pretty much its a good way to go

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Additionally, we spend all manner of trillions on crap that creates jobs in entertainment and technology at the moment. The efforts needed to be taken to help curb climate change would cost far less and make more legitimate business in the process of either industry, and generally make the world more pleasant assuming it did nothing else. So while 'climate denying' is a farce, assuming we were all wrong about what we see going on, we would still be better off trying. Whereas if we did nothing, we're either worse off or screwed in unfathomable ways .
If the US government dumped as much money as it seems to dump into the Green jobs programs into funding research into genetic engineering for crops and livestock...and in large scale fish farms and the like

you'd be able to take..a huge amount of stress off the global fisheries and knock off a large part of land clearing that's going on in the world

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
Al Gore is a poor source of information, but I can sympathize with using stimulation to fight arguments that do little more than stimulate with sensationalism.
Fight fire with fire? When the fire in question is lies, vitriol and intimidation and full on embracing dogma over rational investigation?

that seems less like a good way to combat the ignorance of the other side and a good way to have both sides playing Russian roulette with two fully loaded six shooters

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
Look at who's denying anything regarding climate change and related negative effects too. I'd sooner trust McDonald's and Krispy Creme saying their food was designed to promote good health and beauty . People in sciences related to this aren't exactly making any money on it, but being against it is a big business. You could throw away everything any side on this says and smell the BS by just realizing who's saying it and why.
Being in favor of it isn't profitable? When you have so many "buy a tree to feel less guilty" style companies popping up and the media has invested such a huge and passionate share of their time and energy into it?

I'd say the people funding and pushing both sides of the argument are equally corrupt and despicable.

I mean when science..has been replaced by dogma on both sides...that speaks for something even more frightening than the data they produce. That the people who are the ones that are gonna think their way out of it..have stopped thinking, stopped exchanging knowledge and stopped seeking out viable alternatives.

That's bad

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I'm all for green measures if only to be able to breath in LA . Not all are windmills, and I think telecommuting would do wonders as well, but they're all generally positive whether we're ending the world or not.
Generally positive? I suppose...but the logistics of some of the more wishful thinking green energy projects make their implementation a case of more waste using even more space
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I deeply distrust any positions resting only on convenience and safeguarding existing titans of industry that would need change for it. Hell, just let existing companies contributing the most capitalize on the green measures too. Guarantee they'd all suddenly see the light if given a leg up into a new market.
Call me cynical but the Titans of the energy industry are going to survive and still be the Status quo whether we're running around in electric cars or hydrogen or water fueled or old fashion oil.

I mean the last time they faced a fundamental shake up like the one that's coming it resulted in John D Rockefeller walking off as the single wealthiest human in the history of our entire species with him rocking a meme face and asking "are you frustrated?"

I think they see the writing on the wall as clear as anyone..but the movements of giants are slow..confusing and obfuscating.

I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the settling of the dust cloud...we've got Exon Mobile...funding asteroid mining..and championing their new "energy efficient" fuels while gradually "phasing out oil in favor of their new products"
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:45 PM   #22
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we are also in the middle of a massive extinction event of "hold overs" and mammals and birds not easily able to adapt compared to other species...that started at the end of the last ice age...yeah we've retardedly overfished and over hunted our way into that and we need to take conservation steps big time



also treehugger.com? I'm pretty sure if someone here posted a fox news link you'd roar foul

I'd also point out that now adays a lot of extinction happens because of land cleared for farming and housing...and frankly when it comes to human lives..one human is worth more than every whale on the planet as far as I'm concerned
As I said, we're drastically changing the world simply by living everyday life. The more life you destroy, the more dangers which arise from broken and unsustainable food chains; aka bye bye large portions of the earth's fauna. You can't tell me you know everything will be fine if enough of earth's ecosystems are broken and down and dismantled by human development.

Even if it's hypocritical, humans rely on the environment we're adapted to manipulating for our own gains. If you tamper with the world and cause enough imbalances, that's real danger in of itself.Despite humans being a cancerous species, we're all equally important to the stability the earth created before our time.

-p.s that's not the only link about the shrinking biodiversity

Quote:
The planet is a fragile place? Wut? No hardly, in fact it's incredibly tough,...hell the mere genesis of our moon speaks volumes for how phenomenally tough our world is. As for our biosphere...again its insanely tough and honestly? The more we look into it...the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs may have mercy killed the tiny few that remained..after something small and irrelevant namely...diseases did the mass genocide.

We live in a violent, unfeeling world where death and suffering has been the catalyst for our rise as a species multiple times. As for us needing millions of years

ninety years ago..mankind was barely flying

now we're engineering wheat that keeps a billion people from starving to death
Tough? Rebuilding the global biosphere for life to exist over and over again doesn't means it's tough. If anything the amount of change it goes through and length of time it takes to recover is anything but tough. What's important here is we adapted to a certain environment, whether or not the earth's new equilibrium will be liveable for us is irrelevant. The current one is the one we should care about.

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How the hell is saying that benign? Do you have any idea just what surviving an ice age and moving on entails? Even with our current tech level?
I'm talking about the changes humans bring about,which you argue are not so significant.

Quote:
The ecosystem survived stuff like the Toba eruption which pushed out more toxic gases and garbage into the air than anything we've done over the last forty years...hell we as a species survived that.

the world will be fine..most life will be fine...its our civilization that may eventually be on the line
Doubt a single eruption can outpace 200 years of industrialization,but volcanic eruption and techtonic plates shifting was probably the old school way of climte change.

Yes us being in danger...that's been my whole point. I really don't have to go on from here. We're in danger because of our development as a species...although that's just speculation in of itself. I really am not saying I'm just convinced human activity will infact change everything to the point of our own extinction,but to say it's not possible is scary in of itself.

Besides look how cold it was a few months ago. GLOBAL WARMING MY ASS


Quote:
Well Bacon I know that despite you using the more fringe parts of my "we have the tech to do this and this" to try and discredit me...believe it or not we've had the capacity to bioengineer our way out of this since the nineteen sixties

the guy I linked above borlaug, and people like him on the frontier of what we can do with our sciences...they have done things like take certain aspects of Scorpion DNA that allow them to ward of pests and then implant them into Cabbage to create a pest resistant strain..or how they can create crops that can sustain themselves in some of the harshest climates around. These people aren't operating in science fiction and what ifs

this is real...industrial scale farming is real...

it can eliminate an enormous amount of our "carbon foot print" and the biggest reason why it isn't is because of the same people who keep talking about how we're gonna murder our mother being..the power brokers behind the movement...think Genetic engineering is evil
Why do you assume I'm being hostile or trying to discredit you? I just don't see the practicality of bioengineering as our savior until it's actually done. although I'm not very read up on such topics..it's been years since I een thought about this kind of stuff.


Quote:
We have a perfectly green source of energy that can produce all the power our carbon factories produce and then some..but the environmentalist movement hates it

so instead of embracing Nuclear power we're stuck wasting resources on what you said above..a logistical and technological nightmare

oh and as someone..who has grown up around the farm industry...people who advocate ethanol have no idea the damage the Ethanol crops outside of soy..do to the soil..if they did they'd be howling "drill baby drill" at the top of their lungs
Ok so simpsons lake monster mutations aside and real chernobyl incident, isn't the waste scary in of itself? I know it's highly efficient and probably produces manageable waste for the short term, at least.
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 01-26-2014, 05:12 PM   #23
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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If the US government dumped as much money as it seems to dump into the Green jobs programs into funding research into genetic engineering for crops and livestock...and in large scale fish farms and the like

you'd be able to take..a huge amount of stress off the global fisheries and knock off a large part of land clearing that's going on in the world
I'm with you on smacking around anyone that's afraid of GMOs and the naturalistic nonsense supporting the idea that 'organic' farming at this point is anymore more than a marketing term, and couldn't ever hope to feed the present world, let alone the emerging one with every passing baby that's continually crapped out by people that both can't support it and never thought to consider that before conception . But I also don't think the present funds going from the government to green jobs is all that substantial, and further, that it would have gone to better farming were the program at all absent. So I agree on the farming and all that being a big deal, and the present implementation not ideal, but I also don't think that any attention would have even gone to farming practices without the nuttery portions of the movement in general.

I'm not a big fan of people acting like there's food that's somehow 'inorganic', or that we didn't nix the pesticidal affect on most all of that fairly quickly. There's some minor issues with beef here and there still, but by and large the biggest impediment to present day agriculture is it's own marketing. I mean we already genetically modified most all staple crops today through domestication, now we do it deliberately to a better purpose and it's the boogey man?

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Fight fire with fire? When the fire in question is lies, vitriol and intimidation and full on embracing dogma over rational investigation?

that seems less like a good way to combat the ignorance of the other side and a good way to have both sides playing Russian roulette with two fully loaded six shooters
I can sympathize with the sentiment of that, but with the general state of televised discourse, if you didn't have someone like Gore making it palatable, I'm not sure enough people would care at all to even consider these kinds of things. Popularizers do play a role, and I don't see Gore's to be relatively bad considering the stakes.

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Being in favor of it isn't profitable? When you have so many "buy a tree to feel less guilty" style companies popping up and the media has invested such a huge and passionate share of their time and energy into it?

I'd say the people funding and pushing both sides of the argument are equally corrupt and despicable.

I mean when science..has been replaced by dogma on both sides...that speaks for something even more frightening than the data they produce. That the people who are the ones that are gonna think their way out of it..have stopped thinking, stopped exchanging knowledge and stopped seeking out viable alternatives.
The profitability from things like that are so immensely minor compared to the funds going into making this seem like a multi-sided issue of discourse that they don't even register. Most are by companies already raking it in using it as another marketing buzz word, which only has competitive advantage, and no actual profits are increased, brands are just differentiated when politically convenient.

I don't consider this a matter of dogma on the climate change side either. Being on my end of it and knowing actual people giving the interviews and talks and writing things, it really is akin to the entirety of scholarly discourse and thinking vs a well funded literal handful that has so much money they've perverted the conversation into a two sided affair. Just imagine if everyone on the forum thought this site had the logo that it did, then suddenly 5 people start going on about how there is no logo and we can't be sure there's a logo at all, and then you start seeing ad campaigns about that .

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Generally positive? I suppose...but the logistics of some of the more wishful thinking green energy projects make their implementation a case of more waste using even more space
I agree that some of the bigger projects proposed by some of the hottest advocates are half baked as the ones professing them . But that doesn't discount the need, and the conversation towards better ones. The ones in the position to plead aren't the ones with any training to implement, which is true of most disciplines.

Expecting the ones that can tell you what's going on with this and why to be able to do that in a persuasive, argumentative way is like expecting a Paramedic to recite the law to an criminal he just saved from a gun wound. He drives the ambulance, not the cop car .

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I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the settling of the dust cloud...we've got Exon Mobile...funding asteroid mining..and championing their new "energy efficient" fuels while gradually "phasing out oil in favor of their new products"
Every time someone brings up space or looking out of earth for new efforts I'm reminded that one of our greatest achievements is still making it to the moon for a couple of days and bailing after we tagged it with the Stars and Stripes .
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*Alot of people have been asking to help me with various things on the site, many of which involve sharing files between me and other members. Since I get asked almost every day, to do this or collaborate with me personally, use
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gives you a lot more free space than normal to work with if that helps, but mainly, it's easier than me getting a thousand emails I have to download and upload with a file again to reply
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:13 PM   #24
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As I said, we're drastically changing the world simply by living everyday life. The more life you destroy, the more dangers which arise from broken and unsustainable food chains; aka bye bye large portions of the earth's fauna. You can't tell me you know everything will be fine if enough of earth's ecosystems are broken and down and dismantled by human development.
of course I can and I can cite previous mass extinctions as proof...hell Mammals have survived hundreds...multiple extinction level events that broke the Dinos..each and every time they hit and may have even caused the last one

and with the vast majority of life either being insects germs or ocean based life...honestly..it will be fine

what wont be fine is us, what wont be fine will be a lot of the mammals birds and reptiles that came up over the last million years...a good chunk of them may be gone...or driven to the brink...

but life will comtinue

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Even if it's hypocritical, humans rely on the environment we're adapted to manipulating for our own gains. If you tamper with the world and cause enough imbalances, that's real danger in of itself.Despite humans being a cancerous species, we're all equally important to the stability the earth created before our time.
Humans are a cancerous species? Do you even hear yourself? What the hell? We are the single most successful form of life outside of plants and virus's and we are the only species since plants to shape the entire planet to suit our needs...and we have the power to and readily do save entire species

and we're cancerous? Why because we utilize resources more efficiently than other species?

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-p.s that's not the only link about the shrinking biodiversity
I know I was screwing with you

the implication that, that massive die off is solely our fault..is ignorant.

We've a high body count to be sure but not higher than good old mother nature herself.
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Tough? Rebuilding the global biosphere for life to exist over and over again doesn't means it's tough.
Are you kidding me?

Do you have any idea just what life on this planet has survived? Hell what our species has?

how many times its been driven to the brink only to explode back to prosperity with the intensity of a super nova?

Life is insanely resilient...

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If anything the amount of change it goes through and length of time it takes to recover is anything but tough.
the amount of time? A million years is nothing on a cosmic scale...if anything we've rebounded insanely fast

consider what other planets...Mars being a great example..which we think now at one point supported life... the same disasters likely hit it that hit our tiny blue marble in her early years..

and we're alive...

You underestimate just how violently cruel nature is

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What's important here is we adapted to a certain environment, whether or not the earth's new equilibrium will be liveable for us is irrelevant. The current one is the one we should care about.
and I'm saying we are swiftly reaching a level of technology where..the ecosystem and the earths concerns and balances are going to be rendered irrelevant and subordinate to the will of the human race.

We aren't there yet and it would be arrogant..to assume we are just as much able to destroy our world as we are its masters now. But we're close maybe a hundred years off maybe more or maybe less depending on how the world goes

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I'm talking about the changes humans bring about,which you argue are not so significant.
I argue that they are significant to us, not to the history of the planet

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
Doubt a single eruption can outpace 200 years of industrialization
and you'd be absolutely wrong...if it weren't for ocean based primitive plants spewing their oxygen based pollution into the world the entire world would right now be a toxic ball of carbon gas and volcanic ash.

The power of some of the bigger Volcanic eruptions of the last two centuries alone..have done stuff like..cause prolonged winters, lower global temperatures and blacken out the skies for weeks over entire regions

and these are relative babies compared to what nearly wiped us off the map..or was happening every single day all the damn time back in the beginning

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,but volcanic eruption and techtonic plates shifting was probably the old school way of climte change.
Don't be silly...its the only way for climate change to happen

what we are doing is basically dumping a few gas trucks worth of fuel into a thousand acre wide forest fire...its going to cause one violent ass flash in the pan..but nothing else


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Yes us being in danger...that's been my whole point. I really don't have to go on from here. We're in danger because of our development as a species...
No we are only alive because of our development as a species... in fact we are winning the game so to speak...surviving, prospering and we will continue to thrive...because of our development...that is evolution and we are extensions of nature..and the only ones that are finally beginning to control it...and that's not bad at all


We are in danger..as a species because of our reliance on a fuel source that is not the most efficient, and extremely limiting and dangerous not just to us but to the environment as well. That dependency has placed us at risk...and like addict its time to start getting off the sauce

don't confuse the two...we are not better off as primitives in caves or sucking grass and eating monkeys like our Chimp cousins

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
although that's just speculation in of itself. I really am not saying I'm just convinced human activity will infact change everything to the point of our own extinction,but to say it's not possible is scary in of itself.
Most people think that...when we have survived way worse than whats coming

I'll never understand why...mind ye I;m not advocating "weathering the storm" i'm advocating "lets invest in the industry and technology that will make the storm our '

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Besides look how cold it was a few months ago. GLOBAL WARMING MY ASS


it's a conspiracy Bacon!!

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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
Why do you assume I'm being hostile or trying to discredit you? I just don't see the practicality of bioengineering as our savior until it's actually done. although I'm not very read up on such topics..it's been years since I een thought about this kind of stuff.
And I posted to you a link of a guy who used that same science to save a billion lives

so claiming it's impractical is silly...When it's a historical reality that a large percentage of our species exists today because of one dude and his limited tinkering with food crops..that happened...and the moment it happened it pissed on any arguments saying we can't use technology and human ambition to get out of our problems.



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Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
Ok so simpsons lake monster mutations aside and real chernobyl incident, isn't the waste scary in of itself? I know it's highly efficient and probably produces manageable waste for the short term, at least.
ermm Chernobyl happened because of mind numbing incompetence in an era when the USSR was in such bad shape that it basically could barely feed itself much less maintain its extensive facilities...

that isn't the norm...by any stretch of the imagination.

As for waste..actually I'm pretty sure the waste management for nuclear waste is more efficient than for oil..and carbon

its just..well it can be riskier depending on how well regulated the dumping is...and all


it takes longer to "decay" and the storage area is deadlier but that aside..I think its one of the most if not the most efficient all around alternate source of energy

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I'm with you on smacking around anyone that's afraid of GMOs and the naturalistic nonsense supporting the idea that 'organic' farming at this point is anymore more than a marketing term,
I mean..and this is the history buff here, we've been genetically engineering foods and crops since the first agricultural settlements. Just what the hell do people think domestic animals are? or the crops we use? They have been selectively bred for thousands and thousands of years

so all of a sudden it's immoral and a public health menace because it's done more efficiently and with more variables in a lab?

It really confuses me...the organic food movement..it seems as if its either thriving on ignorance, or it relies on a catchy term..and doesn't have any concern for "technical" accuracy


[
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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
and couldn't ever hope to feed the present world, let alone the emerging one with every passing baby that's continually crapped out by people that both can't support it and never thought to consider that before conception . But I also don't think the present funds going from the government to green jobs is all that substantial, and further, that it would have gone to better farming were the program at all absent. So I agree on the farming and all that being a big deal, and the present implementation not ideal, but I also don't think that any attention would have even gone to farming practices without the nuttery portions of the movement in general.
But the nutters are the guys advocating returning to farming methods decades if not a century out of date that would cause over three billion deaths?

You mean to tell me in their zeal they have actually been beneficial to improving the more technological side of farming? That's gotta sting

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I'm not a big fan of people acting like there's food that's somehow 'inorganic', or that we didn't nix the pesticidal affect on most all of that fairly quickly. There's some minor issues with beef here and there still, but by and large the biggest impediment to present day agriculture is it's own marketing. I mean we already genetically modified most all staple crops today through domestication, now we do it deliberately to a better purpose and it's the boogey man?
The Irony is the moment you bring that up the other side usually resorts to raging and calling you an ignorant fool..or dismissing that as total lies. or say "well that's being pedantic"




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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I can sympathize with the sentiment of that, but with the general state of televised discourse, if you didn't have someone like Gore making it palatable, I'm not sure enough people would care at all to even consider these kinds of things. Popularizers do play a role, and I don't see Gore's to be relatively bad considering the stakes.
The issue I have is a moral one, "this guys a lying profiteer who won a peace prize a woman who saved thousands of Jews during the holocaust should have won" his insanity may have sparked a temporary awareness and riled people to the cause...but it was done off a lie


also I wouldn;t be surprised if the other side of the debate gained a resurgence in numbers directly because a lot of those swept up in the tide of their populist rhetoric and documentaries started doing the research for themselves and realized just how completely full of it they were

So again it seems to me like playing Russian Roulette


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The profitability from things like that are so immensely minor compared to the funds going into making this seem like a multi-sided issue of discourse that they don't even register. Most are by companies already raking it in using it as another marketing buzz word, which only has competitive advantage, and no actual profits are increased, brands are just differentiated when politically convenient.
I suppose, still going by the numbers the green industry is...nothing to sneeze at

ignoring the deniers, it kinda is a multi sided issue though..just the details being debated i would think.


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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I don't consider this a matter of dogma on the climate change side either. Being on my end of it and knowing actual people giving the interviews and talks and writing things, it really is akin to the entirety of scholarly discourse and thinking vs a well funded literal handful that has so much money they've perverted the conversation into a two sided affair. Just imagine if everyone on the forum thought this site had the logo that it did, then suddenly 5 people start going on about how there is no logo and we can't be sure there's a logo at all, and then you start seeing ad campaigns about that .
While I don't dispute that a lot of scientists on this side are legit and not dogmatic..you have stuff like entire reports being falsified and the like

again by both sides of the shitstorm...but enough to raise the appearance

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
I agree that some of the bigger projects proposed by some of the hottest advocates are half baked as the ones professing them . But that doesn't discount the need, and the conversation towards better ones. The ones in the position to plead aren't the ones with any training to implement, which is true of most disciplines.
No of course it doesn't but at the same time it just adds fuel to the fire

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Originally Posted by SRhyse View Post
Expecting the ones that can tell you what's going on with this and why to be able to do that in a persuasive, argumentative way is like expecting a Paramedic to recite the law to an criminal he just saved from a gun wound. He drives the ambulance, not the cop car .


you;re saying the science field has an issue with PR?

or the above crackpots?
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Every time someone brings up space or looking out of earth for new efforts I'm reminded that one of our greatest achievements is still making it to the moon for a couple of days and bailing after we tagged it with the Stars and Stripes .

Well things have changed technology has grown and a lot of private companies are making innovations that blow passed what NASA has done sans the moon landing and the sats and rovers
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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Humans are a cancerous species? Do you even hear yourself? What the hell? We are the single most successful form of life outside of plants and virus's and we are the only species since plants to shape the entire planet to suit our needs...and we have the power to and readily do save entire species

and we're cancerous? Why because we utilize resources more efficiently than other species?
Another topic, I'll be sure to spout out more nonsense on this later. Honestly I've always thought of ourselves as blood sucking leeches.
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Are you kidding me?

Do you have any idea just what life on this planet has survived? Hell what our species has?

how many times its been driven to the brink only to explode back to prosperity with the intensity of a super nova?

Life is insanely resilient...
...I'm thoroughly aware of life coming back from extinctions as devastating as the camberion extinction, I used to love prehistoric history...dinosaurs man and giant dragonflys

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the amount of time? A million years is nothing on a cosmic scale...if anything we've rebounded insanely fast

consider what other planets...Mars being a great example..which we think now at one point supported life... the same disasters likely hit it that hit our tiny blue marble in her early years..

and we're alive...

You underestimate just how violently cruel nature is
Ukatan penisula...;-; My trexs Mother nature makes me sad

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I argue that they are significant to us, not to the history of the planet

OMG I'M SO DONE WITH THIS TOPIC. THAT WASN'T MY POINT XD

Maybe should have read tbc's whole post
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12:11 PM So you enter the debate with full knowledge that you know nothing of worth on the subject, and then state you will not make an effort to learn. Way to be poster-boy for blight of the forum. Leave discussions of intelligence to those that have it.

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Old 01-26-2014, 06:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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ignoring the deniers, it kinda is a multi sided issue though..just the details being debated i would think.
If people are going to argue over efficacy of implementation against horrible environmental crap, great, but that's not really what I ever see at issue. I would still consider anyone arguing that we don't affect what's going on to any substantive degree, or that we're in the middle of a cycle that's ironically unlike any other cycle to still be in the 'denial' camp.

Implementation of beneficial change is a multisided issue, but climate change at the face of it is not. That's not to say there aren't more than one position you can take on it, but it's like the Monopoly man is yelling at scientists at this point and telling them they're wrong because they paid off a few of them to yell in unison with him .

Quote:
While I don't dispute that a lot of scientists on this side are legit and not dogmatic..you have stuff like entire reports being falsified and the like

again by both sides of the shitstorm...but enough to raise the appearance
Even the bad science within the good is such a small fraction it's inconsequential. And of note, the ones pointing it out are the ones it would most have benefited *not* to have pointed it out.

It's similar to the creationist nonsense of harping on a transitional fossil being faked. Doesn't at all affect the theory of evolution, and the evolution advocates are the ones that weeded it out, not them.

Quote:
you;re saying the science field has an issue with PR?

or the above crackpots?
Maybe it's because I frequently find anyone I see at the gym is in a quantum computing program or a marine biologist that I have access to things many don't , but I don't think many people actually know that many scientists, let alone relevant ones to being able to say anything of substance on this. The average person couldn't talk their way away from a 5 year old asking 'why?' indefinitely, let alone someone that just spent 10-40 years of their adult life essentially living in a bubble of other like minded folks that already know what they're talking about.

Arguing in public in relatable ways on complex matters can be difficult in general. Asking a specialist in the complex matters but not the 'arguing in public' part to suddenly flip specialties as the need arises is like expecting a Football player to be able to pick up a tennis racket and take the US Open by storm .

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Well things have changed technology has grown and a lot of private companies are making innovations that blow passed what NASA has done sans the moon landing and the sats and rovers
I agree the private sector's blown past NASA in terms of Tech, but I'm not sure how much of the tech is relevant. There's a strong market in the private sector for essentially useless nonsense, so I'm skeptical how much practical applications are being developed on that front for space travel when the market's incentivized to make things like Snap Chat and Google Glass apps that let you see your own 'O' face during sex .

Space can't not be vital to our continued human ascension, but we've got plenty of problems down here that aren't going to be solved by running away or ruining other planets. I don't think we're ready to even ethically attempt anything in space when we don't collectively have the character to be accountable to what we're doing to ourselves at the moment.
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*Alot of people have been asking to help me with various things on the site, many of which involve sharing files between me and other members. Since I get asked almost every day, to do this or collaborate with me personally, use
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gives you a lot more free space than normal to work with if that helps, but mainly, it's easier than me getting a thousand emails I have to download and upload with a file again to reply
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. Thanks for wanting to help though!
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:50 PM   #27
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

Honestly, Everyone believes the world will end in some grandiose sort of way, and I guess the stories from the various religious groups as well as movies have us believing that. Honestly, I don't even think global warming will be the cause! I mean its obvious we DO effect the way the world is in some ways, however I don't think anything short of a global nuclear war, will we do something so major.

In terms of environmental changes, sure we do mess with things, groups complain about species extinction etc.. but in essence those types of things have been happening long before we humans truly started to alter our environment (in a major way) to suit our living. "Global Climate Change" has been happening long before humans, and will happen long afterwards, you have to consider that before humans there was a lot of actual change going on in terms of the continental drift theory and volcanic activity (both bellow and above the oceans). That said, that same activity threw up just as much or more "greenhouse gasses" as we seam to create today, but in the absence of volcanoes.

I would go on to say that, should the polar ice caps melt, its been seen that places like Antarctica are getting colder, it should also mean that the globe is in a continuous state of change, and trying to fight said change is pure foolishness. That said, the act of being greener may not change the course of the planet, however it may make us as humans HEALTHIER, which is a better argument for good controls over pollution....

On a final note, on "How the world will end" I doubt we as humans will be here to find out. My hope is that through our innovative nature we do eventually sort out how to leave this planet, and I am sure as time goes on we will. Its likely that if we don't, what will end us as a species will be nothing grandiose at all, but something as simple as virus related or bacteria related that removes us, then likely the expansion of the sun to consume everything.
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

Don't really have the time to pull off the old quote and reply but I have a few facts for you, since you're seriously underestimating the effect humans are having on the world.


1. 20% of the polar ice caps in the world have melted. Scientists have figured out that by the end of this century, the sea level could rise nearly two feet. Yes, that would cause the extinction of millions of species and hundreds if not thousands of harbor towns and villages along coastlines in the world.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...xtinction.html

2. Overpopulation is a serious risk. In 40 years, the world's population has nearly doubled. (From 3.7 billion to over 6. that is RIDICULOUS.) Factor in the amount of food necessary to feed an extra 3 billion people, all of those cars emitting pollution, and deforestation required to create more homes... Yeah. Not even counting the farming required, think about the oceans and how much extra fishing will be necessary to feed all these extra people. By the way, at the current rate, the world's population will double yet again in 50 years. 3 billion more homes creating waste. Correct me if I'm wrong, (Which I'm not cause I just researched it on the discovery channel), but we've fished up some 90% of the ocean species from their natural habitats already.

3. Coal mining - millions of square miles have been destroyed just in the united states thanks to strip mining. Then you have peak shaving. The Appalachian mountains are currently in the process of being destroyed. Do you understand how humongous of a deal that is? We are literally WIPING mountain ranges off of the face of the earth so that we can have extra energy.

4. Disease - Do I really need to explain this?

5. Here's a fun fact for you. A single car emits 12,000 pounds of carbon dioxide a year. 250 million cars in the United States. There is far too much scientific fact proving the effect of greenhouse gases on the ozone layer for you to deny that. If you do, you're just being stubborn..

6. Ozone depletion is a fact, why are people really trying to argue that? And it's also fact that carbon dioxide is one of the causes for that. Considering I gave the example of how much C02 comes from a single car, it should be known that it takes 300 trees to counter that amount.
Here. http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Read that and try to claim that it's a "Natural thing". There are far too many variables showing that since the industrial age began, greenhouse gases, ozone depletion, deforestation, overall pollution, sea levels, and every other thing I've posted has increased at an exponential rate. Too much for you to call it natural.

Once again, I'm not claiming we're going to end the world in 50 years. I'm just claiming that we're slowly but surely making it happen, eradicating species homes and life all over the country at an alarming rate, and at a rate that's picking up pace as we grow. How can you honestly deny this?

And your earlier comment about how there's too much plant life for us to have an effect on it... are you freakin kidding me? In the last 40 years we've destroyed 20% of the Amazon! That is a small country, dude. Meaning within the century, at our current rate, it WILL be gone.

People who deny the problems we lay on the world are seriously just procrastinating the solution. If more people were in agreement about it, the world might take it more seriously instead of engaging in an endless debate over who is right and who is wrong. It's sad, truly. I trust studies held by NASA, National Geo, Discovery, the EPA, and Climate Change scientists far more than I trust the word of people who won't admit that there truly is a problem and cite our current situation as a "Natural occurrence".
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

If anyone is curious, it's us, only more educated. It's a good read. Might be too deep for some (entertainment wise). Wouldn't say it's dry though. But, this is a fun read if you are really interested in global warming as a topic.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/3...lobal-warming/

I read down to September 9, 2012 11:11 AM. about 3/4s of 1 page, in only 4+ hours.

The most common standpoint I am reading from the pessimists are:

1. CO2 in the atmosphere follows temperature changes not the other way around. (related to oceanic absorption and release)

2. There is no real time empirical evidence suggesting proof that Co2 drives temperature change. Only similar curves that suggest a possibility.

3. atmospheric isotope changes prove nothing.

4. The ocean stores way, way more carbon then the atmosphere. And there's plenty of room for more.

5. water vapor and clouds effect the earths temperature more than CO2

6. whether the earth heats up is due to radiation balance. incoming solar energy vs energy outgoing and into the atmosphere.

7. We do not yet fully understand the carbon cycle, so we don't know absolutely, just, kinda likely. That was the reaccuring problem with these guys debating, SO MUCH SCIENCE to blend together, but still not enough.

Really, I was only familiar with number 4 above, before reading.

I'd say I learned a lot, but even so, these guys/gals switched from one science to theorem to formula to the next. No definitive answer was reached. Each person was constantly correcting the prior persons lack of knowledge in a particular area. Poking holes in each others studied/support points. Arguing over whether someone's theory violates an established "observation" (which I take as a widely accepted theorum, that is practically a scientific law). It's very hard to determine who knows more than who.

If there is a strangeness to it, it's that there is so much debate over formula and physics that study reactions, it just boggles my mind, that they didn't force the debate into a series of subtopics that must first be completed. All this you are doing this wrong, no you are.., It was a huge amount of interpretive science. In every single aspect, and when it shouldn't be.

For me, the result is, I'm pushing further into the pessimist side of things. I mean, "anthropogenic" (human cause and non-natural) global warming doesn't seem close to cut and dry.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:18 AM   #30
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

I'll get to the rest of your post tomorrow but basically I'm a little shocked, reading that was like reading.a copy paste of a hipsters blog.. tossing out facts like that with all that pomp without doing to the research behind it

The vast majority of our oxygen comes from plankton

In fact we could probably rip Every tree off the planets surface and as long as we didn't dick with the seas vegitation we'd last long enough for all those trees to grow back at a gross underestimation of the oceans oxygen producing power


The amazon matters as a preserve for wildlife

It means all to our survival

Edit the discovery channel? That's your source? The same people that had navy seals take a dive to ninjas produced ghost lab and argued the ancient astronaut theory a decade before the HC did?

Ninety percent of the oceans species fished up already?

That is the single most retarded claim I have ever heard them make

What a joke

Oh and the EPA is one of the most corrupt agencies out there and in conjunction with fish and wild life they have just doomed the scimitar horned Oryx to extinction

Tldr: they do more damage to.the environment than any one else and most of their actions are geared towards justifying their own existence

And when you consider Nixon created the EPA specifically to target the oil barons who supported Kennedy they have been functioning as a glorified protection racket for special interest groups since their inception
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

Had no idea you'd start being an to me. "retarded claims", "A joke", "hipster blog"...

You say I don't do research but I've posted 5 or 6 links to sources in two posts. Have you posted any other than your word of mouth?

Do you really want to go down that road with me IWD, cause I'd rather avoid it if possible, but continue to insult me and It's pretty much unavoidable. I don't think our relationship will be in tact after, so if you value it at all, try to watch the way you talk to me.

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Ninety percent of the oceans species fished up already?
http://www.sfgate.com/green/article/...de-2647929.php

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...2#.UufwXTYo5kA

http://kgov.com/bel/20120420

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/world/...limate-change/


So you don't think its some sensationalist claim without research behind it.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

TBC, the problem with your sources (not a personal attack, I would say the same if they were on the otherside) these are all interest groups, and none of these should be considered unbiased. What I think IWD is looking for is a scholarly source, such as direct research paper publication from an impartial science team looking to examine said phenomena.

The issue with those sources are that they are biased to their opinion. I can create and manipulate numbers and statistics to do anything I want them to if I am bias, I can also manipulate some research findings to meet my conclusions. I trust things coming out of CNN.com about as much as I do from Foxnews.com, and I could list off opposition sides websites with their own counter arguments, research and conclusions made through manipulation as well.

Show me a scholarly source published by a group that have nothing to gain or lose based on the findings, typically found in very specific publications which are not widely subscribed to due to their limited scope of focus. They are out there...I know this based on having to do various types of research that delve into specialized journals on said topics.

I don't completely dismiss global warming, but by the standards of global change, and the scope of some of the studies, I believe a lot of what has been said is sensationalized, and by sensationalizing this, it creates benefits for interest groups, and profits as well.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:58 AM   #33
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

I wasn't insulting you but the claims you are repeating I am taking issue with. Because they are factually ignorant of scale and omit the amount of carbon the ocean can absorb and how it gets processed then back into oxygen by marine plant life of which IIRC only kelp is in any danger (not that, that isn't bad)

I think your articles are taking."we are over fishing our feasible fisheries " because the amount of Fish humans can eat vs the amount of marine life we can't consume is enormous

My attack was not on you but your sources
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:58 AM   #34
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
both sides of the debate...the "deniers" and the "pro global warming" side have been outright caught doctoring and fabricating results
For others to compare your statement to: covers Al Gore's personal interests in the issue, among other things.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-...change/5357415


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Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
with this being not limited to small fringe organizations but also...places like the UN...making it kinda hard to trust any source..on either side
Yes. I am technically in the 9/11 conspiracy camp. I've looked into things enough (books, not just videos) to be convinced that what many facts were fabricated or not reported in main stream media. But get this, I have talked to maybe 25 people who are also "9/11 conspiracy theorists," but I am the only one who doesn't believe that our government was behind it. 1 in 25. Essentially, poeple on my side of the issue think they are smarter than the average joe who has accepted the main stream answer and that we can connect the secret dots and draw the connections. Then they simply add, "so the government must have done it." And then they all believe each other, as soon as they think the other person is on their side. Most of the conspiracy documentaries are sensationalist and like in this issue are about people looking for facts to support their claim.

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I don't even think that can be disputed...that we are accelerating and increasing things- we certainly are..but the degree of which is certainly in dispute
That is a safe and modest standpoint that no one can fault you one, especially your strong standpoints. I am just surprised it took this long for an IPCC study to get to 95% certain humans influence global warming. Even 95% is more like a safe risk, than a fact. Of course no one is beholden to this particular study, it's just that with the strong political push on anthropenic causality, and the vast size of the study, going from 90% (very very likely) in the prior/2007 study to 95% (almost definite) in 2013. And this is just for an affect in general, not big or small.

frankly this is all new research to me, and it is surprising.




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considering most global scale weather events like the above..occur over long term shouldn't the studies be conducted once every five...fifteen and thirty years?

it seems like they are done annually...where a year in the time scale of planets..and nature is..absolutely nothing. You may as well be conducting a second by second study for all the good its gonna do.
Well, from what I've read, the last one was 2007. But also there are new technologies. New discoveries of formula. And I imagine the studies don't just cover the 1 year difference, which you probably, accidentally wrote. They could start at the same time many years ago, as a prior study would, like 1958 to present, and cover more range. There seem are volcanoes under the ice caps, and that is a new variable that was not even discovered before the last IPCC report (I keep referencing these guys for simplicity, not fandom, or intentional cherry picking).

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Blog...3871384794076/

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1. 20% of the polar ice caps in the world have melted. Scientists have figured out that by the end of this century, the sea level could rise nearly two feet. Yes, that would cause the extinction of millions of species and hundreds if not thousands of harbor towns and villages along coastlines in the world.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...xtinction.html
Just focusing on this issue, more scientific evidence has been needed sicne the 2008 discovery of volcanoes under the north pole.

This research group said it would not affect the ice caps melting
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=8343...&cid=44586&c=2

One year later, "Now NASA has come out (in fact the same group within NASA that hosts one of the High Priests of the Church of Al Gore, James Hansen) and discovered the human effect on Arctic warming is even moreĀ negligible than this. In their results, that 1% of the IRRGHG that could possibly be attributed to human CO2 production is actually half as much – because half the Arctic warming is due to aerosols, not water or CO2:"
found here:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5589
it also has many links to other studies related to Gakkel Ridge and the earthquakes happening there.

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TBC, the problem with your sources (not a personal attack, I would say the same if they were on the otherside) these are all interest groups, and none of these should be considered unbiased. What I think IWD is looking for is a scholarly source, such as direct research paper publication from an impartial science team looking to examine said phenomena.
I agree partially. They are media sources with an audiance, though they are reporting on the same research. "The Census of Marine Life." It was a ten year study. Without reading the study itself, the articles seem to suggest that the 90% number was collected by # of fish that are caught. 90% less fish are caught. At a glance, I wouldn't think this not an ideal method of determination, but I don't know what support technology they used beyond tracking fishing boats and their catches. Or if they only researched traditional shipping lanes. And any other potential factors this study would not cover. Although being conservative, it is still a measurable effect of large scale fishing practices. I agree we are overdoing it and there will be some kind of impact, perhaps even severe. I will leave it to someone else if they want to post what kind of future impact on the ecosystem, or at least us, if we are down to 5% or some number. I'll trust your argument on that aspect.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

yes we are causing harm to the world. very true because we are not perfect. for this reason we are told to be good stewards of it by God. okay, if youre not christian, dont havta read this :P but dont bash me either. Science will never disprove God because God is the master of science, We have just been allowed to discover and make it our own so it is a little twisted. Science in depth actually points to God in its wonder. This world and life and universe is not chance haha. That's crazy So anyway thats my take on science, and in result of my perception, my answer to this thread is in agreement with the bible, that the world ends when Jesus returns and it is destroyed, but is then made new. Also the bible states that we can try as we might, but it will come like a thief in the night. We can never predict it or see it coming. And sure enough, we have not! Again dont bash please, just something im offering for thought. eh? eh? watcha think
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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yes we are causing harm to the world. very true because we are not perfect. for this reason we are told to be good stewards of it by God. okay, if youre not christian, dont havta read this :P but dont bash me either. Science will never disprove God because God is the master of science, We have just been allowed to discover and make it our own so it is a little twisted. Science in depth actually points to God in its wonder. This world and life and universe is not chance haha. That's crazy So anyway thats my take on science, and in result of my perception, my answer to this thread is in agreement with the bible, that the world ends when Jesus returns and it is destroyed, but is then made new. Also the bible states that we can try as we might, but it will come like a thief in the night. We can never predict it or see it coming. And sure enough, we have not! Again dont bash please, just something im offering for thought. eh? eh? watcha think

This is a debate section and whether you like it or not people are expected to challenge, question and defend the viewpoints of others as well as their own.

So you think the end of the world will be caused by the coming of the Jeudo-Christian Deity? If it wasn't written on the bible, you wouldn't be good to the world? Can you elaborate and explain how "in depth" science points towards god or how he's a master of science when the bible has made inaccurate statements/claims about our planet? (e.g the earth cannot move, the sun moves around the earth)

You do realize had humanity stuck and conform with the knowledge contained in the bible over milennias, we wouldn't have the knowledge of our world and the universe around us today? Or of nuclear energy? (which generates electricity to power cities around the world without burning coal)
How about knowing how to cure diseases and ailments that have plagued humanity for centuries?

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Originally Posted by SilentBlade View Post
I don't completely dismiss global warming, but by the standards of global change, and the scope of some of the studies, I believe a lot of what has been said is sensationalized, and by sensationalizing this, it creates benefits for interest groups, and profits as well.
^ That about sums up my stance on the whole Global Warming theme. Mainstream media can omit, manipulate or outright lie about the content they present to the public...almost everything is marketed nowadays it's difficult to find unbiased sources.

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Old 01-28-2014, 12:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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This is a debate section and whether you like it or not people are expected to challenge, question and defend the viewpoints of others as well as their own.

So you think the end of the world will be caused by the coming of the Jeudo-Christian Deity? If it wasn't written on the bible, you wouldn't be good to the world? Can you elaborate and explain how "in depth" science points towards god or how he's a master of science when the bible has made inaccurate statements/claims about our planet? (e.g the earth cannot move, the sun moves around the earth)
since im sort of a newby here i have no power to post links or i would give ya one. I know that the bible was written by humans, and our knowledge is limited. so i would agree with you that Paul was not all knowing haha. whoever wrote that the sun revovles around the earth wasnt either, but i still dont know where that part is. But to answer the question about would i still be good to the world if it wasnt in the bible... i think that its sort of a weird question for me because the only thing not presented to us in the bible is abortion.. and even then the bible says to "always be on the side of life" so i guess i dont know. it wouldnt be the bible without the command to preserve Gods creation. i guess the main point in mentioning science at all in my previous post was to introduce the thought that truly science hasnt disproven creation by God, nor has it disproven evolution/big bang etc.. but still theyre all theories. For instance, i dont believe the earth is billions of years old, i actually only think it is thousands... the billions of years old thing comes from something like carbon dating which is based on evolution which is just a theory. We just have started to accept it as fact, it is sort of weird to me that it is taught as such in textbooks haha. Once i get to 10 posts i will give you a link to offer up more support for my opinion. I think that not only is the univers much too complex to be just chance, but it is also way too beautiful not to be designed. Knowing that plus knowing that jesus was a very real person (we base our current year off of his life) i just think that common sense points to creator God. But then going past common sense and intuition there is also science that at times can be argued to agree with me. The bible will even say that "the heavens (space, the sky, creation) declare the glory of God. None are without excuse." meaning that we need just look up and we have proof of God. Sorry i am not learned quite enough myself to give you more but theres a little for ya. i think this is like my 6th post
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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Old 01-28-2014, 01:02 PM   #39
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Default Re: How will the earth end? Global Warming?

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since im sort of a newby here i have no power to post links or i would give ya one. I know that the bible was written by humans, and our knowledge is limited. so i would agree with you that Paul was not all knowing haha. whoever wrote that the sun revovles around the earth wasnt either, but i still dont know where that part is. But to answer the question about would i still be good to the world if it wasnt in the bible... i think that its sort of a weird question for me because the only thing not presented to us in the bible is abortion.. and even then the bible says to "always be on the side of life" so i guess i dont know. it wouldnt be the bible without the command to preserve Gods creation. i guess the main point in mentioning science at all in my previous post was to introduce the thought that truly science hasnt disproven creation by God, nor has it disproven evolution/big bang etc.. but still theyre all theories. For instance, i dont believe the earth is billions of years old, i actually only think it is thousands... the billions of years old thing comes from something like carbon dating which is based on evolution which is just a theory. We just have started to accept it as fact, it is sort of weird to me that it is taught as such in textbooks haha. Once i get to 10 posts i will give you a link to offer up more support for my opinion. I think that not only is the univers much too complex to be just chance, but it is also way too beautiful not to be designed. Knowing that plus knowing that jesus was a very real person (we base our current year off of his life) i just think that common sense points to creator God. But then going past common sense and intuition there is also science that at times can be argued to agree with me. The bible will even say that "the heavens (space, the sky, creation) declare the glory of God. None are without excuse." meaning that we need just look up and we have proof of God. Sorry i am not learned quite enough myself to give you more but theres a little for ya. i think this is like my 6th post
oop, didnt see that part about diseases, electricity etc.. umm.. i guess because i believe the bible and it says God is the great physician, miracles, all that stuff. He is God after all we cannot understand much anything in comparison to an all knowing God. He could easily have revealed facts of science had we stuck to the bible. its sort of a "what if" question and god could do anything in that situation. But he did give us free will so we have chosen some of us to go away from the bible and we are here. God can use all things for good even through those who dont care or are against him
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:03 PM   #40
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