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Old 12-19-2013, 10:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

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Originally Posted by Arale Uchiha View Post
It me go into detail.

Madara had a spare eye from a random Uchiha when he first met Obito, yet he was able to control the Black Rods which is seemingly be a Rinnegan power.

So apparently it a more complex thing, Tobirama explained that the special chakra in the brain causes the Sharingan transformation, so apparent the brain is the source of Sharingan's power (So limited access to the powers should be avaliable) and the eyes is the medium of channeling that power.

This also explains EMS, The Original owner already transforms the eye and then the special brain chakra of the person who gets the implants tries to change it again creating a double pattern eye, seemingly the similarity of blood creates a resonance effect which makes it immune to effects of sight deterioration) no side effects.

Also it is seen that Susanoo responds to the user's feelings and thus mental state while Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi doesn't, so its more likely that the origin of Susanoo lies in the brain not the eyes.

The rinnegan Preta Path ability has the same principles.

The susanoo and the Preta path techniques that don't really require your eyes.
I feel this theory is mostly right, except the part in orange. While the brain is the initial source of power, the eyes represent an expansion of the power in the body, not a medium. We wouldn't know this, except Kakashi doesnt have the brain. Obito's power extended from the brain and into his eyes, giving the eyes permanent power, and allowing for it to be passed on.

I will also agree to the idea that the power expansion into the eyes, also represents an increase in power, which then would decrease upon loss of ones eye(s).
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

@kalmeast about the amaterasu thats due to Sasuke skill with being able wield the flame with his hand and not being incinerated.

@paradigm yeah your right, I was trying to say that susanoo the brain is key.

Let me explain


It's logical that you can't use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi if you're blind, because those techniques require the user to look and see the opponent, and the techniques are channeled directly through the eyes. 

Susanoo however, doesn't require the user to look at the target. It doesn't come out of your eyes, does it? You need two Mangekyo Sharingan's to unlock Susanoo, as stated in the manga. Never was it stated that you need to see to use it. And wasn't Itachi practically blind minutes before he died? 

The power of the Sharingan is in the brain, and is channeled through the eyes when the user activates it. the user can predict movements through the eyes, copy jutsu's through the eyes, see chakra through the eyes, some of the things the sharingan can do, The only Uchiha technique that's not used through the eyes is susanoo, thats what I'm talking about.

Mental state with MS

Susanoo is seemingly connected with the user's mental state also, did you note how suddenly Sauke clutched his eyes in pain and his other reactions at that time against kakashi?

Sasuke was feeling hateful seconds ago thus getting a stronger Susanoo, but suddenly his vision blurs as a result his becomes dumbfounded and surprised which kinda cancels the growth and when feels the pain realises he is going blind his feels surprised and most likely got scared for a few moments (not to mention that the pain might have broke his cencentation too thus breaking the channeling of the chakra to the jutsu) and then obviously the jutsu fails.

At the time for Sasuke susanoo failed due to mental state which is key if you only have MS after you awaken EMS and the side effect no longer effect you, you can use the Susanoo blind as long as you have awakened the EMS which is important.


I hope this helps.
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Spoiler:
Top 5 Powerful Characters in Naruto
Sage of Six Paths (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Madara Uchiha (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Obito Uchiha (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Hashirama Senju
Naruto Uzumaki (While Jinchuriki of Kurama)

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Old 12-19-2013, 06:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

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Originally Posted by Arale Uchiha View Post
Let me explain


It's logical that you can't use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi if you're blind, because those techniques require the user to look and see the opponent, and the techniques are channeled directly through the eyes.

Susanoo however, doesn't require the user to look at the target. It doesn't come out of your eyes, does it? You need two Mangekyo Sharingan's to unlock Susanoo, as stated in the manga. Never was it stated that you need to see to use it. And wasn't Itachi practically blind minutes before he died?

You don't need vision to use koto. As we saw with danzo getting the vote he wanted. And I don't think the user has to see the target for tsuko. The connection of a genjutsu to the victum is when the victum sees the user's eyes, or finger in Itachi's case. That's why the victum looks away or covers their eyes.

In the latest chapter, madara was blind but could sense the type of tomo Sasuke had. I think being a sensor and locking onto someones location, even if blind, is enough to "target" with a genjutsu. Then the genjutsu "locks on" when the victum looks at you.

So I think Madara could have used tsuko or standard genjutsu on Sasuke.

With Susanoo...

Obito sent Sasuke to the summit, because he wanted Sasuke to train his eyes. Sasuke's first Susanoo wasn't as strong as later. That means there is a power level connection with the eyes. His brain didn't change without the emotion, but through Tobi, we know the eyes do. And since we know the eyes gain their own power (kakashi) we know that not having the eyes, means not having as much power.

Itachi might have been near blind, but vision and eye power aren't specifically related, until the eye loses it's light. Unless that is a part of your theory as well.

So perhaps the reason you need MS in both eyes to use Susanoo, is because of the power needed for Susanoo. This would be a reasonable explanation. So perhaps Madara can use Susanoo without eyes, because his power level without them is still incredibly high.
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Last edited by paradigm1977; 12-19-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

See... That doesn't do justice... The Amaterasu was generated from the hand and not the eye in that instant I'm referring to... How does Amaterasu form with the hands without using the eyes.

And how is it he used Amaterasu one time w/0 bleeding and the other time with bleeding?
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

i kind of enjoyed reading that.

need to go back and read the last three chapters again.

not sure if blind or careless, but never saw where madara lost his eyes after getting the rinne tensei.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalmeast View Post
See... That does do justice... The Amaterasu was generated from the hand and not the eye in that instant I'm referring to... How does Amaterasu form with the hands without using the eyes.

And how is it he used Amaterasu one time w/0 bleeding and the other time with bleeding?
My simple theory is that sharingan users once they master the technique don't require the eye's to perform the trivial tasks.

Special Cases explanation
Spoiler:


Madara
Madara can perform perfect susanoo without his eye's because he's mastered it to the point he can have reduce is power by a factor of 25 and still knock out a perfect susanoo.

He can absorb small amounts of chakra, though nothing on the scale of absorbing a rasenshuriken all at once.

Saskue can create a small flame to add to a Rasenshuriken because it's nothing on the scale of a susanoo covered in amaterasu.

Obito can't do susanoo because he never had both eye's need to get the technique, not to mentioned there would be little point since he can use kamui

itachi can cast simple genjutsu with his body because he can make you think that you've been tortured for a week when only a few seconds have pasted, or because you don't need eye's to hypnotize someone.

Your theory does not explain how itachi can do this as he doesn't have any eye's inside him, though obviously this can be explained in other ways.


Mechanics
Spoiler:

As naruto is a fantasy I don't really see the point in going to far into this however this effect would be the chakra equivalent to muscle memory.

muscle memory is once you have performed an action so much that, that process is cached so that you already know what to signal and when to perform the action, so your brain doesn't need to solve the inverse kinematics problem every time you need to block a kick


I like your theory, and it does make sense. I did enjoy going over the chapters again that you mentioned.

I think in 657 Hashirama would be less surprised if chakra absorption was a ability madara had before their battle in the valley of the end.

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Old 12-20-2013, 02:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Final Secret Of The EMS ~ Explains How Madara Pulled Susanoo w/o Eyes

@kalmeast Maybe he's immune to the flames he produces, or maybe he controled the flames so that they formed sword on his hand, but didn't actually touch him which basically means Kagu-Tsuchi's comes from the fact that he can create flames where his chakra is touching due to manipulating the flames at that level, probably why Sasuke is better with amaterasu than Itachi.

All that but its really down to TALENT!!

@Paradigm I think Koto you do need to look at the target, considering Danzo and Mifune did my eye contact, actually no only Danzo did. Mifune didn't actually see the eye due to the bandages which in my opinion was the case.
You still need eye contact for example Itachi and the Shisui crow made eye contact when the crow used koto which was activated by Itachi's MS which helped Itachi escape the control of Kabuto(Edo Tensei).


Actually you do need eye contact for Tsukuyomi, every time that jutsu was used there was eye contact.

For example
Madara used his susanoo with his rinnegan right?

Yet rinnegan Madara had to shift to EMS to cast a Genjutsu on A? So bad that the next stage of EMS can not cast an simple gentjutsu.

At the kage summit, Sasuke didn't awaken his susanoo until his fight against Ay.

You're right about Tobi pushing Sasuke's new powers with his even deeper hatred and testing that power and improving that power with his fight against the Kages.

Let me explain what happened at the kage summit.

Sasuke susanoo was fadeing because he was getting weak.(running out of chakra) He himself had said earlier something like ahh my whole body is in agony from the strain of using susanoo. Itachi had really bad eyesight, but his MS technique were still top grade.

Eyesight on MS, has nothing to do with strength of the technique however I did mention it causes more pain on the eyes and strain on the eyes and body after the technique is used becuase its still MS.

I was saying full chakra nearly blind sasuke could still produce the same size amatersu or susanoo, as a Full chakra Perfect eyesight sasuke.  Basically the only thing eyesight itself(as in you still have the eyes, but your blind) is that you cant aim your techniques.

Izanagi and izanami are different, as they actually seal off the eye (permanetly).

I hope that somehow helps.

About Madara susanoo power level without eyes, I think its not even about that.

Susanoo is kinds different than the other two ms abilities.

OK I think your not comprehending the matter. Susanoo itself is the manifestation of the user's transformed chakra, it is seemingly indicated that its independent of the status of the eyes so why being blind or half blind would matter when the point of origin does not like in the eyes? 


Eehh that was long.

I really hope that helps.
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Shinobi are people who endure to achieve their goals… but depending on what they choose as their goal they change… like Madara and I…- Hashirama Senju


Spoiler:
Top 5 Powerful Characters in Naruto
Sage of Six Paths (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Madara Uchiha (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Obito Uchiha (While Jinchuriki of Shinju)
Hashirama Senju
Naruto Uzumaki (While Jinchuriki of Kurama)
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