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Omniverse Anything goes in this forum. Any multiverse, any singleverse, any fight. Just know in advance that Kakashi can't beat Superman.

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Old 06-09-2013, 08:27 AM   #81
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

It cant be anything else ,can it?
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on black person kage when his susuano grabbed him and he put him in ms genjutsu with tsuki.
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:50 AM   #82
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
That speed of light thing are you talking about the Transfer technique used by one of the cloud girls?
Of course I just don't use it all the time because I don't feel like defending it.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #83
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

The speed of light technique is a great feat!!!

And you don't need any other feat for reference as you usually need!!!
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #84
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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It cant be anything else ,can it?
No but honestly it was a just simple case of forgetfulness on my part.

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Of course I just don't use it all the time because I don't feel like defending it.
Yeah I momentarily forgot about the feat.

All I remember about that jutsu was that people arguing about the speed of light being hyperbole and then I stopped reading because I stopped aring.
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:41 PM   #85
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
No but honestly it was a just simple case of forgetfulness on my part.



Yeah I momentarily forgot about the feat.

All I remember about that jutsu was that people arguing about the speed of light being hyperbole and then I stopped reading because I stopped aring.
The characteristics and the fact people where dying from it makes it hard to argue against. Also considering the current level of attacks makes it hard to claim hyperbole.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:39 PM   #86
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

If I remember correctly, the speed of light transfer was only dangerous because the girl did not have confidence in her skill. The speed of light transfer is hardly a durability feat because small average objects survive it all the time. If a piece of wood can survive it, then...

The issue she had with sending humans was that they were more complicated than simple objects.

You still haven't shown how your feats trump the feats I listed in Bleach. There have been literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times when bleach characters have flown through concrete and rebar sky scrapers, stone, or large concrete pillars that are at least 50 meters wide and 300 meters tall. During Zaraki's fight with Nnoitra, Zaraki flew through four of those pillars and got up like those were nothing. Zaraki also cut one of those in half by holding his sword up when it was falling towards him. By the density of concrete, and the size of that chunk, Zaraki's arm is able to hold up an object that weighs hundreds of thousands of tons. Zarakis sword slashes were so powerful that when he hit Nnoitra with them, sparks were sent flying, the sand flew up in the air hundreds of meters, Orihime, who was hiding behind her shield, was having difficulty standing up because of the shockwave, and Yachiru's hair was flying even though she was dozens of meters away. I don't think any of the Raikage's attacks matches this. Keep in mind, these are not Zaraki's most powerful attacks, these are just casual attacks. The amount force necessary to create an attack where the shockwave is pushing people back from dozens of meters away is extraordinary. I mean, it would take megajoules of energy to recreate such a thing in real life.

As for speed, not everyone has the same speed in bleach, but there are verrrrry fast people in bleach. If you look at when Byakuya races against Yourichi, they traversed over several miles in seconds. During Ichigo's battle with Byakuya, Byakuya was able to close a distance of over a hundred meters within an instant. In addition to this, we know that Soifon is faster than Byakuya. Already we have two captains that could outpace most if not all of the kage. The only kage that would have a chance of keeping up is the Raikage. The rest just get speed blitzed

As for the speed feat with Ichimaru, that can still be used to determine the scaling between the captains' speed level and the Kages' speed level. We know that Ichimaru travelled over a mile in under a second moving from one end of Karakura town to the other end. We know that Ichigo was able to somewhat keep up with Ichimaru. Ichimaru was probably a tad bit faster, but not so fast that he was able to speed blitz ichigo. We know that during Ichigo's fight with the 10th espada that Ichigo is slower than Yourichi. We also know that Soifon is more or less about the same speed as Yourichi. From this we can figure out that Yourichi and Soifon are around Ichimaru's level of speed or are possibly faster than Ichimaru. We have yet to see Shunsin have a feat better than the feats that I have listed. In addition to this, not everyone even uses Shunsin. In contrast, basically everyone in Bleach uses Shunpo. They spam it as though it is nothing. I don't think there is a single instance where Gaara, Tsunade, or Mei ever used Shunsin.

Bleach has speed, strength, and durability feats far beyond Naruto. When you look at Naruto feats, you actually need to spend some time looking for good strength, speed, and durability feats. In bleach, those types of feats are common place, and those common place ones are able to match or outclass the naruto feats. In Naruto, the majority of people have never shown to have speed where they can move at extremely fast paces, while everyone in bleach has shown to at least be able to use Shunpo. In bleach, not many people have endured being thrown through buildings or mountains, while most people in bleach have. I mean, even in low level fights between people of 3rd seats have shown people flying through buildings. I mean, Yumichika is the 5th seat in Zaraki's division, but during his fight with Hisagi he too flew through buildings as though they were nothing. I mean, in Naruto you can't pull out such feats for any random chunnin or Jonin. It just isn't possible. On the flip side, if in bleach you can. I don't even think you could do such a think for Mei, Tsunade, or even Gaara.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:31 PM   #87
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by Edyl View Post
If I remember correctly, the speed of light transfer was only dangerous because the girl did not have confidence in her skill. The speed of light transfer is hardly a durability feat because small average objects survive it all the time. If a piece of wood can survive it, then...
There is a difference the inanimate objects could be broken down human beings can't. Which was explained already.

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The issue she had with sending humans was that they were more complicated than simple objects.
Again inanimate objects doesn't have flesh and organs. They can be safely be put back together no damage humans don't follow that principle. Simply put the technique is not meant to transfer humans. The durability of the inanimate object doesn't matter. So....
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You still haven't shown how your feats trump the feats I listed in Bleach. There have been literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times when bleach characters have flown through concrete and rebar sky scrapers, stone, or large concrete pillars that are at least 50 meters wide and 300 meters tall. During Zaraki's fight with Nnoitra, Zaraki flew through four of those pillars and got up like those were nothing. Zaraki also cut one of those in half by holding his sword up when it was falling towards him. By the density of concrete, and the size of that chunk, Zaraki's arm is able to hold up an object that weighs hundreds of thousands of tons. Zarakis sword slashes were so powerful that when he hit Nnoitra with them, sparks were sent flying, the sand flew up in the air hundreds of meters, Orihime, who was hiding behind her shield, was having difficulty standing up because of the shockwave, and Yachiru's hair was flying even though she was dozens of meters away. I don't think any of the Raikage's attacks matches this. Keep in mind, these are not Zaraki's most powerful attacks, these are just casual attacks. The amount force necessary to create an attack where the shockwave is pushing people back from dozens of meters away is extraordinary. I mean, it would take megajoules of energy to recreate such a thing in real life.
First of all Zaraki and Nnoitora doesn't represent Bleach durability as a whole. Most characters are massively weaker than them. Secondly I already given a major example of the thirds attack power and defense that takes a dump on all of that. Namely the Hachibi whose attacks he countered and withstood. The Hachibi can create a tornado that cratered an area the size of an a town with it's strength. That trumps everything the 13 have when it comes to raw power.

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As for speed, not everyone has the same speed in bleach, but there are verrrrry fast people in bleach. If you look at when Byakuya races against Yourichi, they traversed over several miles in seconds. During Ichigo's battle with Byakuya, Byakuya was able to close a distance of over a hundred meters within an instant. In addition to this, we know that Soifon is faster than Byakuya. Already we have two captains that could outpace most if not all of the kage. The only kage that would have a chance of keeping up is the Raikage. The rest just get speed blitzed
Again that is a technique just like shunshin in Naruto. There is virtually really no difference from the two. Naruto has benchmark feats like frs for feats which crossed a mountain range sized ct crater in under a sec. There is no blitz going on not unless it is from the third. Also the other kages are not slower than him. Muu reacted to Naruto at point blank.

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As for the speed feat with Ichimaru, that can still be used to determine the scaling between the captains' speed level and the Kages' speed level. We know that Ichimaru travelled over a mile in under a second moving from one end of Karakura town to the other end. We know that Ichigo was able to somewhat keep up with Ichimaru. Ichimaru was probably a tad bit faster, but not so fast that he was able to speed blitz ichigo. We know that during Ichigo's fight with the 10th espada that Ichigo is slower than Yourichi. We also know that Soifon is more or less about the same speed as Yourichi. From this we can figure out that Yourichi and Soifon are around Ichimaru's level of speed or are possibly faster than Ichimaru. We have yet to see Shunsin have a feat better than the feats that I have listed. In addition to this, not everyone even uses Shunsin. In contrast, basically everyone in Bleach uses Shunpo. They spam it as though it is nothing. I don't think there is a single instance where Gaara, Tsunade, or Mei ever used Shunsin.
All you are doing is scaling that is not proof of speed. Proof of speed would be facepalming Aizen in a blink across a city or stopping and reacting to a missile explosion like Barragan. As for the shunshin spamming we actually don't know when they activate the technique in Naruto simply because the fights are more descriptive than in bleach from a far the fights seem like blurs. Reference the Kakashi vs Zabuza for the fact. The genin couldn't even see there movements and it looked like they were fighting using shunshin. Either way they still have highspeed movement and reaction speeds which is all that really matters.

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Bleach has speed, strength, and durability feats far beyond Naruto. When you look at Naruto feats, you actually need to spend some time looking for good strength, speed, and durability feats. In bleach, those types of feats are common place, and those common place ones are able to match or outclass the naruto feats. In Naruto, the majority of people have never shown to have speed where they can move at extremely fast paces, while everyone in bleach has shown to at least be able to use Shunpo. In bleach, not many people have endured being thrown through buildings or mountains, while most people in bleach have. I mean, even in low level fights between people of 3rd seats have shown people flying through buildings. I mean, Yumichika is the 5th seat in Zaraki's division, but during his fight with Hisagi he too flew through buildings as though they were nothing. I mean, in Naruto you can't pull out such feats for any random chunnin or Jonin. It just isn't possible. On the flip side, if in bleach you can. I don't even think you could do such a think for Mei, Tsunade, or even Gaara.
Nope this is your opinion. The stories and fighting styles are completely different so you are only judging by an art style. Naruto has a multitude of feats more solid than bleach. Most of the characters in bleach are not even that strong overall. They have better base durability that is about it. As far as attack power goes most jutsu are on par with if not outright superior to their abilities. For instance flying through a building is not more impressive than summoning a creature that can demolish a skyscraper.

You have a limited perspective on both series. If you didn't you would notice that bleach produces a lot of attacks with decent sizes but they hardly do anything. The best example you gave was of Zaraki which is a solid feat for them. But that is pointless against a characters who have powers that can counter or bypass durability. Naruto has way more people who can do that than Bleach.
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Old 06-15-2013, 12:18 AM   #88
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer View Post
First of all Zaraki and Nnoitora doesn't represent Bleach durability as a whole. Most characters are massively weaker than them. Secondly I already given a major example of the thirds attack power and defense that takes a dump on all of that. Namely the Hachibi whose attacks he countered and withstood. The Hachibi can create a tornado that cratered an area the size of an a town with it's strength. That trumps everything the 13 have when it comes to raw power.
The Captain Commander can create flames that are as hot as the sun. People slice through buildings like a hot knife through butter with clean slices. Kenpachi cut through seven sky scrapers with his eye patch on just for show once. During Renji's fight with Byakuya in the soul society arc, Byakuya's crash 33 kido was the size of a mountain(the screen had to be zoomed back Renji and Byakuya were dwarfed by the blast. The blast was able to destroy the structures it came into contact with). The Gran Rey Cero, used only by the espada, was said to be capable of destroying all of heuco mundo if it was used at its maximum capacity. It is so powerful that it distorts space and can create tears in it. Cero Oscuras can only be used by the top four espada. It is even more mind-bogglingly powerful. Heuco mundo is at least hundreds of square miles. The final getsuga tenshou made a canyon into the horizon. There are plenty of others.

Nowhere does it show that the Raikage tanked the Hachibi's strongest attacks, let alone one of his attacks capable of creating such a crater. There is a big difference between a casual Hachibi tail swipe and a Hachibi attack where the Hachibi is going all out.

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Again that is a technique just like shunshin in Naruto. There is virtually really no difference from the two. Naruto has benchmark feats like frs for feats which crossed a mountain range sized ct crater in under a sec. There is no blitz going on not unless it is from the third. Also the other kages are not slower than him. Muu reacted to Naruto at point blank.
Characters in Naruto have not shown to have the same amount of endurance when it comes to hyperspeed movement. They never spam it, and it rarely occurs unless it is with someone who is known to speed blitz like the raikage. In addition to this, not everyone has even shown to be capable of even using Shunshin. Tsunade has never used it, Gaara has never used it, Mei has never used it, Hidan has never used it, Shikamaru has never used it, Asuma never used it, Kiba has never used it, etc. On the other hand, basically everyone in bleach has shown to effortlessly spam shunpo as though it is second nature. Once again, basically every Kage gets speed blitzed except for the Raikage in this battle. The Raikage is definitely fast and powerful, but he can't cover all of the captains moving at Shunpo pace. All of the other kage get speed blitzed like crazy.

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All you are doing is scaling that is not proof of speed. Proof of speed would be facepalming Aizen in a blink across a city or stopping and reacting to a missile explosion like Barragan. As for the shunshin spamming we actually don't know when they activate the technique in Naruto simply because the fights are more descriptive than in bleach from a far the fights seem like blurs. Reference the Kakashi vs Zabuza for the fact. The genin couldn't even see there movements and it looked like they were fighting using shunshin. Either way they still have highspeed movement and reaction speeds which is all that really matters.
It isn't just powerscaling. I scaled Ichimaru with Yourichi, but before I scaled I used a feat to prove Ichimaru's speed. The logic is as follows: Ichimaru is this fast because of this. Yourichi is faster than Ichimaru. Therefore Yourichi is at least this fast. There is no logic break here and it is grounded on a solid feat.


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Nope this is your opinion. The stories and fighting styles are completely different so you are only judging by an art style. Naruto has a multitude of feats more solid than bleach. Most of the characters in bleach are not even that strong overall. They have better base durability that is about it. As far as attack power goes most jutsu are on par with if not outright superior to their abilities. For instance flying through a building is not more impressive than summoning a creature that can demolish a skyscraper.

You have a limited perspective on both series. If you didn't you would notice that bleach produces a lot of attacks with decent sizes but they hardly do anything. The best example you gave was of Zaraki which is a solid feat for them. But that is pointless against a characters who have powers that can counter or bypass durability. Naruto has way more people who can do that than Bleach.
This listing of feats and this abundance of feats can't be countered by saying that ____ manga/anime has a different style than ____ manga/anime. When we debate between mangas and animes, we have to look at all of the evidence objectively and by the same standards. Style doesn't change the actual feat itself, the feat is still a feat. If we don't look at the effects of feats objectively and without the same standards, then we get into the territory of saying "Inuyasha would defeat pre-crisis superman in a battle because superman's feats were only a result of that author's style. Just because he destroyed entire solar systems means nothing." If human's weren't able to trust their own observations as being factually true, then we would have no scientific development. Objectively, if we observe that _____ has more frequent feats of a certain caliber and _____ has less frequent feats of a certain caliber, then the former would be seen as stronger.

The frequency of feats matters because it determines whether or not those feats are actually difficult for the characters or if it is just a casual occurrence that is easily replicated by the characters. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, if you can't trust what you are observing is accurate, then there is no debating. If in dragonball z, people only moved at insane speeds every now and then, then the characters would not be seen as fast as they are today.

What we see is what we get. What we get is what we debate with. This is how debates should work. Distorting this by arguing that style changes this principle literally makes everything subjective. All feats become subjective when we debate in this framework. Because of this, when a person in bleach flys through concrete, we have to assume that is equivalent to a person in naruto flying through concrete. The same applies to explosions, movements, and everything.

Why are most of the characters in bleach not strong overall? I do not see your logic here. Everyone down to 5th seat people have shown to cut through buildings and fly through them. By measuring physical strength alone, they are doing feats equivalent to Tsunade strength. Tsunade's punch against Kabuto sent him rolling on the floor about a hundred meters. People in bleach send other people in bleach flying hundreds of meters through buildings all the time. Tsunade is stronger than the Raikage in physical strength. We know this because of the arm wrestle that they had. Just from this simple deduction, a 5th seat yumichika has about equal physical strength in comparison to Tsunade.

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Old 06-15-2013, 03:47 AM   #89
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by Edyl View Post
The Captain Commander can create flames that are as hot as the sun. People slice through buildings like a hot knife through butter with clean slices. Kenpachi cut through seven sky scrapers with his eye patch on just for show once. During Renji's fight with Byakuya in the soul society arc, Byakuya's crash 33 kido was the size of a mountain(the screen had to be zoomed back Renji and Byakuya were dwarfed by the blast. The blast was able to destroy the structures it came into contact with). The Gran Rey Cero, used only by the espada, was said to be capable of destroying all of heuco mundo if it was used at its maximum capacity. It is so powerful that it distorts space and can create tears in it. Cero Oscuras can only be used by the top four espada. It is even more mind-bogglingly powerful. Heuco mundo is at least hundreds of square miles. The final getsuga tenshou made a canyon into the horizon. There are plenty of others.
Yet noneof these attack are more powerful than the Hachibi. Not even on their best day.
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Nowhere does it show that the Raikage tanked the Hachibi's strongest attacks, let alone one of his attacks capable of creating such a crater. There is a big difference between a casual Hachibi tail swipe and a Hachibi attack where the Hachibi is going all out.
The tornado is an example of how powerful it can be. It was rampaging not even holding back when it faced the third. So yeah his durability is that high.


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Characters in Naruto have not shown to have the same amount of endurance when it comes to hyperspeed movement. They never spam it, and it rarely occurs unless it is with someone who is known to speed blitz like the raikage. In addition to this, not everyone has even shown to be capable of even using Shunshin. Tsunade has never used it, Gaara has never used it, Mei has never used it, Hidan has never used it, Shikamaru has never used it, Asuma never used it, Kiba has never used it, etc. On the other hand, basically everyone in bleach has shown to effortlessly spam shunpo as though it is second nature. Once again, basically every Kage gets speed blitzed except for the Raikage in this battle. The Raikage is definitely fast and powerful, but he can't cover all of the captains moving at Shunpo pace. All of the other kage get speed blitzed like crazy.
You just ignored what I said about their battles being different from bleach. They are clearly maintaining high speeds at any given times. Dodging attacks like frs proves that fact. The difference is in Naruto the battles are several times more descriptive. Furthermore even with shunpo and shunshin if your combat speed is slow you can still get easily countered. Most of them outside of shunpo are snail slow.

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It isn't just powerscaling. I scaled Ichimaru with Yourichi, but before I scaled I used a feat to prove Ichimaru's speed. The logic is as follows: Ichimaru is this fast because of this. Yourichi is faster than Ichimaru. Therefore Yourichi is at least this fast. There is no logic break here and it is grounded on a solid feat.
What exactly was the feat all I saw was powerscaling.


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This listing of feats and this abundance of feats can't be countered by saying that ____ manga/anime has a different style than ____ manga/anime. When we debate between mangas and animes, we have to look at all of the evidence objectively and by the same standards. Style doesn't change the actual feat itself, the feat is still a feat. If we don't look at the effects of feats objectively and without the same standards, then we get into the territory of saying "Inuyasha would defeat pre-crisis superman in a battle because superman's feats were only a result of that author's style. Just because he destroyed entire solar systems means nothing." If human's weren't able to trust their own observations as being factually true, then we would have no scientific development. Objectively, if we observe that _____ has more frequent feats of a certain caliber and _____ has less frequent feats of a certain caliber, then the former would be seen as stronger.
Yet they do. Each series doesn't follow the same exact principles as the next. Your ranting doesn't change that fact. Each series needs to be case by case because of that fact. If we didn't go case by case people would believe bleach is fast as db.

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The frequency of feats matters because it determines whether or not those feats are actually difficult for the characters or if it is just a casual occurrence that is easily replicated by the characters. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, if you can't trust what you are observing is accurate, then there is no debating. If in dragonball z, people only moved at insane speeds every now and then, then the characters would not be seen as fast as they are today.
We were created with brains for a reason. It is fine to observe but observe everything not what you want. Like the fact that most cero and Hado don't destroy anything. Give one destructive feat fro a cero. Not a how big the blast was but it actually destroying something.
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What we see is what we get. What we get is what we debate with. This is how debates should work. Distorting this by arguing that style changes this principle literally makes everything subjective. All feats become subjective when we debate in this framework. Because of this, when a person in bleach flys through concrete, we have to assume that is equivalent to a person in naruto flying through concrete. The same applies to explosions, movements, and everything.
The only style argument I made is on speed. Which is relative and has many different forms for it. Not all series display their characters moving the same way in combat. Why is that because not all artist draws the same.
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Why are most of the characters in bleach not strong overall? I do not see your logic here. Everyone down to 5th seat people have shown to cut through buildings and fly through them. By measuring physical strength alone, they are doing feats equivalent to Tsunade strength. Tsunade's punch against Kabuto sent him rolling on the floor about a hundred meters. People in bleach send other people in bleach flying hundreds of meters through buildings all the time. Tsunade is stronger than the Raikage in physical strength. We know this because of the arm wrestle that they had. Just from this simple deduction, a 5th seat yumichika has about equal physical strength in comparison to Tsunade.
There is barely a few captains that can outright take a building. As a matter of fact Ichigo and gin were the only two to do so in their fight. Everything you are posting is misinformation that you seem to be taking for fact. Here is fact Tsunade may have only punched kabuto an unimpressive distance but she also picked up a sword made of solid steel. The length of it was tall as Gamabunta. That is a raw strength feat higher than most in bleach. As for the raikage that is anime it not canon material here unless specified.

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Old 06-15-2013, 04:15 AM   #90
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer View Post
Yet noneof these attack are more powerful than the Hachibi. Not even on their best day.
That's stupid.

FLAMES.FIRE.

Completely different than a Tailed Beast Ball due to HEAT.
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Old 06-15-2013, 05:02 AM   #91
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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That's stupid.

FLAMES.FIRE.

Completely different than a Tailed Beast Ball due to HEAT.
Lol a bijuudama vaporized a mountain. What required of that is the low end of a nuke at minimum for that type of energy. That is hotter than the sun fyi. You say that is stupid but you only just said the opposite about yourself.
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Old 06-15-2013, 07:10 AM   #92
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Originally Posted by Bernkastel View Post
That's stupid.

FLAMES.FIRE.

Completely different than a Tailed Beast Ball due to HEAT.


I won't say its more powerful than Yamamoto's bankai or close to in heat it but still.


Vaporization requires heat.

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buildings.
Actually if I recall Findor was able to slice through a water tank.


Ceros can arguably burst through buildings even fraccion ones depending on whoe.

There was one fraccion whose release launched steel feathers.
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Old 06-15-2013, 09:42 AM   #93
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Actually if I recall Findor was able to slice through a water tank.


Ceros can arguably burst through buildings even fraccion ones depending on whoe.

There was one fraccion whose release launched steel feathers.
I am not saying they are not strong. I am saying don't over hype them. Espada 5 on up should be capable of taking out a skyscraper based of the fight Ichigo had with Gin. Though it should be noted he got stronger against Ulq so it is arguable even with them. But overall the series is in the same boat as Naruto with most of the characters not being worth much.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:50 AM   #94
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

DL, if I spent the time, I could find a battle in a chapter or in an episode where just about 85%-95% of all of the bleach characters flew through a building or sent someone through a building. If you have not noticed this, then you have not been paying attention while watching or reading bleach.

Tsunade's feat of picking up the sword pails in comparison to Kenpachi breaking a Heuco Mundo pillar by holding his sword up. The pillar is bigger, heavier and Kenpachi only used one arm. Also, every clash between Kenpachi and Nnoitra made shockwaves that blew Orihime's hair back even though she was dozens of meters away and behind a shield. Every clash was making explosions. This shows that the amount of kinetic energy being released is similar to a grenade. With 1/2mv^2, that velocity is pretty insane. This also happened a few times between Byakuya and Ichigo, Ichigo and Grimmjow, and a lot of others.

As for the Hachibi argument, not all of the Hachibi's attacks make giant craters or tornadoes, so my argument still stands:There is no proof or feat that shows that the Raikage tanked the Hachibi's strongest attack or an attack of equal magnitude to the one you described. Even when someone is rampaging, not all of the attacks are equivalent to the maximum attacks of that person.

Also, the destruction of an entire world that is several hundred square miles large is weaker than a bomb who's maximum feat was destroying a mountain?

I referenced how Ichimaru was able to move halfway across karakura town in almost an instant.

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We were created with brains for a reason. It is fine to observe but observe everything not what you want. Like the fact that most cero and Hado don't destroy anything. Give one destructive feat fro a cero. Not a how big the blast was but it actually destroying something.
I said in this debate earlier that Byakuya's hado 33 was the size of a mountain and vaporized everything it came into contact with. I've said multiple times how cero's have destroyed several blocks of fake karakura town from multiple characters. For most if not all of my feats I have shown what they did, not just how big they were.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the argument you are making when you bring in the styling argument. Just to first dispell the dbz vs bleach argument, we know that dbz is faster than bleach even though in both anime's we can't visibly see where they are going. When goku was a child he dodged lightning and when he is an adult he is many thousands if not millions of times stronger. Gotenks travelled around the world dozens of times in minutes. In dbz, I can still use feats to determine speed. The same goes with bleach. When they are compared, we see that dbz absolutely destroys bleach. The fastest people in bleach, Yourichi, soifon, and Byakuya, only have feats of travelling across soul society in a few seconds. Even though we can't see how fast they are going in battle because they are so fast, we can still figure out how fast they are using regular feats. The fact that we can't see them move just emphasizes the hypersonic speed. Even though humans can't see light travel or a bullet fly, we know from measuring tools that light roflstomps a bullet.

If we use your styling arguments on all debates in this forum, people would be able to argue that characters whom we can see moving are faster than characters whom we cannot see moving. It would be as if a 90mph baseball pitch were argued to be faster than a bullet by saying that in baseball games, and baseball games only, that ball is actually going faster than a bullet because our perception changes in baseball games. How we perceive things should not be changed by what anime it is in or where it is from. That would be like a person arguing that one should perceive ball movement speed in a baseball game differently than when outside of a baseball game.

So the fact still stands: Naruto people rarely use Shunshin and some never even use it. From this, those characters move at a speed that is below hypersonic speed. Only a few characters have achieved hypersonic speed.

Kishimoto does choose to not have Naruto characters use hypersonic speed, but in doing so, he chooses to make it so that those characters stay at sub-hypersonic levels. Kish chose to only give some people hypersonic speed. Kish didn't want everyone to be flying around at super speed so that he could have more detailed fights. I can accept that, but he is inherently sacrificing the characters speed.

In contrast, in bleach, everyone is given hypersonic capabilities. This removes details from fights, but they still have hypersonic capabilities.

So sure, the quality of bleach fights may be lower, but from a pure speed feat standpoint, the bleachverse if still faster as a whole.

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Old 06-15-2013, 12:02 PM   #95
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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DL, if I spent the time, I could find a battle in a chapter or in an episode where just about 85%-95% of all of the bleach characters flew through a building or sent someone through a building. If you have not noticed this, then you have not been paying attention while watching or reading bleach.
No you can't. I read bleach too just as much as you. The difference is I see stories for what they are.

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Tsunade's feat of picking up the sword pails in comparison to Kenpachi breaking a Heuco Mundo pillar by holding his sword up. The pillar is bigger, heavier and Kenpachi only used one arm. Also, every clash between Kenpachi and Nnoitra made shockwaves that blew Orihime's hair back even though she was dozens of meters away and behind a shield. Every clash was making explosions. This shows that the amount of kinetic energy being released is similar to a grenade. With 1/2mv^2, that velocity is pretty insane. This also happened a few times between Byakuya and Ichigo, Ichigo and Grimmjow, and a lot of others.
First off the pillar is not bigger or heavier than solid steel. That is first piece you are wrong on. Secondly Kenpachi only sliced pieces of the broken pillar that Nnoitara broke. He didn't break a whole one. Also everyone you named capable of creating shockwaves are some of the strongest in the story. That doesn't help your point. Byakuya and grimmjow never reached that level. Specifically Byakuya.

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As for the Hachibi argument, not all of the Hachibi's attacks make giant craters or tornadoes, so my argument still stands:There is no proof or feat that shows that the Raikage tanked the Hachibi's strongest attack or an attack of equal magnitude to the one you described. Even when someone is rampaging, not all of the attacks are equivalent to the maximum attacks of that person.
Your point does not stand. The only point that matters is how powerful the Hachibi is. Not all of kenpachi attacks causes shockwaves but nonetheless we know he can. The Hachibi does what Kenpachi does casually even with "casual" attacks. Furthermore the third raikage busted a wall several times bigger than those pillars. Mind you the wall was reinforced. ch 554 pg 9-12

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Also, the destruction of an entire world that is several hundred square miles large is weaker than a bomb who's maximum feat was destroying a mountain?
First of all the maximum feat was not destroying a mountain. The strongest bijuudama was half a mountain range long. Secondly what are you talking about who can destroy a world in bleach.....

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I referenced how Ichimaru was able to move halfway across karakura town in almost an instant.
Which is nothing genin specifcally Naruto used to do that in Konoha. Another example of shunpo and shunshin arguement.


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I said in this debate earlier that Byakuya's hado 33 was the size of a mountain and vaporized everything it came into contact with. I've said multiple times how cero's have destroyed several blocks of fake karakura town from multiple characters. For most if not all of my feats I have shown what they did, not just how big they were.
What exactly did it vaporize? I went over it just to be sure all I seen was light size means nothing if you don't have destruction content. The only person with ceros like that where stark and that creature Yamato one shot. The rest fell back on their abilities. If you wanna say differently post the ch and pg.

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I don't think you understand the gravity of the argument you are making when you bring in the styling argument. Just to first dispell the dbz vs bleach argument, we know that dbz is faster than bleach even though in both anime's we can't visibly see where they are going. When goku was a child he dodged lightning and when he is an adult he is many thousands if not millions of times stronger. Gotenks travelled around the world dozens of times in minutes. In dbz, I can still use feats to determine speed. The same goes with bleach. When they are compared, we see that dbz absolutely destroys bleach. The fastest people in bleach, Yourichi, soifon, and Byakuya, only have feats of travelling across soul society in a few seconds. Even though we can't see how fast they are going in battle because they are so fast, we can still figure out how fast they are using regular feats. The fact that we can't see them move just emphasizes the hypersonic speed. Even though humans can't see light travel or a bullet fly, we know from measuring tools that light roflstomps a bullet.
Lol moving at high speeds faster than the eye is not necessarily hypersonic. You yourself gave an example of how a bullet moves at such speeds faster than the eye. A bullet is not hypersonic barely supersonic at times. The measuring tool for speed is feats. We have been over this already. Barragan reacting to Soifons missile explosion is an example of hypersonic reactions. Not someone using a shunpo. You yourself just gave the reason why bleach is slower than what is assumed. You just don't want to admit it.

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If we use your styling arguments on all debates in this forum, people would be able to argue that characters whom we can see moving are faster than characters whom we cannot see moving. It would be as if a 90mph baseball pitch were argued to be faster than a bullet by saying that in baseball games, and baseball games only, that ball is actually going faster than a bullet because our perception changes in baseball games. How we perceive things should not be changed by what anime it is in or where it is from. That would be like a person arguing that one should perceive ball movement speed in a baseball game differently than when outside of a baseball game.
What are you talking about bro? Arguments on speed is straight feats. If the feat is better than point blank we know who is faster. Not a scene of shunpo spamming. That is a technique proof of point is how certain characters are slow as dirt when it comes to attacking. Hence how fodde vice captains are capable of fighting espada.
Quote:
So the fact still stands: Naruto people rarely use Shunshin and some never even use it. From this, those characters move at a speed that is below hypersonic speed. Only a few characters have achieved hypersonic speed.

Kishimoto does choose to not have Naruto characters use hypersonic speed, but in doing so, he chooses to make it so that those characters stay at sub-hypersonic levels. Kish chose to only give some people hypersonic speed. Kish didn't want everyone to be flying around at super speed so that he could have more detailed fights. I can accept that, but he is inherently sacrificing the characters speed.
That is false I have already provided proof of characters entering shunshin casually as if it is second nature to them. Kakashi uses it all the time. Genin uses it all the time.Secondly even wihout it there natural speed is already. Hence how character like the raikage and Pain can casually dodge frs.Which is universally accepted as one of the fastest attacks in hst.

Kishimoto chooses to actually display the fights. What is shown is how the characters perceive themselves. not how a much slower opponent actually sees them. Hence why I pointed out the fact the fight between Zabuza and Kakashi was too much for team 7. They couldn't see them. The way a scene is drawwn doesn't depict how fast they are moving. Kuwabara from yu yu hakusho can speed blitz both series. Yet he isn't really drawn as a speedster.

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In contrast, in bleach, everyone is given hypersonic capabilities. This removes details from fights, but they still have hypersonic capabilities.

So sure, the quality of bleach fights may be lower, but from a pure speed feat standpoint, the bleachverse if still faster as a whole.
Nope only your opinion. You are still trying to use the almighty shunpo argument as a speed to use as a speed win but no it doesn't work like that. Considering A is capable of reacting to a teleporter lol at shunpo in general. Mind you A is the benchmark for most top tiers in Naruto.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:12 PM   #96
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

Am I mistaking or in the rules was stated "same speed"? That's stupid. Soifon's Shikai is useless without her speed, the same for sealed Byakuya. The raikage wouldn't be so dangerous without his monster-speed. He would be equal to zaraki. Or maybe kenny would be better (he has great range attacks, the raikage doesn't)
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #97
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

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Am I mistaking or in the rules was stated "same speed"? That's stupid. Soifon's Shikai is useless without her speed, the same for sealed Byakuya. The raikage wouldn't be so dangerous without his monster-speed. He would be equal to zaraki. Or maybe kenny would be better (he has great range attacks, the raikage doesn't)
Well, if the OP give her a lightsaber...she has it in the thread.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:37 AM   #98
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

REVIVING THE DEBATE, forgot about this.

SPOILER ALERT.*********************

You say that Kenpachi is one of the only people to be capable of creating shockwaves with attacks, yet this is fundamentally untrue. During Byakuya's fight with Ichigo, shockwaves were created from their clashes. Orihime's hair was being blown back. During Grimmjow's fight with Ichigo, Harribell and her fraccion, who were standing miles away from the fight, had to brace themselves because of the shockwaves from Grimmjow and Ichigo. When Grimmjow used his Gran Rey Cero, space was distorted and ripped! The amount of energy needed for that is astronomical.

Also, every single impact between Nnoitra and Kenpachi created shockwaves. If you look back at the chapters where they fight or if you watch the anime episodes, you can see the shockwaves on nearly every single attack.

Zaraki at that time was NOT the strongest. In recent chapters, we know that Zaraki was leaps and bounds weaker than Unohana. Zaraki was "suppressing his true power" during his fight with Nnoitra, and Unohana helped him release it again. But during his fight with Nnoitra, he was definitely not the strongest captain. Being capable of making shockwaves from attacks is not limited to just the strongest.

As for the kenpachi and the stone pillar, there was one time when a large stone piece, about half of a stone pillar that was about 50-75 meters in diameter and 50-75 meters in length fell in kenpachi and he broke it by holding one hand up. Steel's density is anywhere from 7-8g/cm^3 while stone is on average around 2.7g/cm^3. The sword was extremely thin and was definitely not twice the size of that pillar in volume.

Yourichi in Shunko during her fight with Soifon, with a single punch, created a crater in the forest that was about half a mile in diameter. Debris flew several hundred meters into the air. Now that roflstomps.

If you go to the arrancar fight in fake karakura town and you documented who went through a building and who did not, then you would have basically all of the characters including vice captains. If you look at the pages where it shows Ichimaru slicing buildings with his shikai in karakura town, you can see how the buildings are reinforced with steel rebar. In contrast, when Naruto in sagemode kicked deva path at CT, deva just bounced off the wall.

During Ichigo's fight with Grimmjow, a regular cero make a clean cut through a stone pillar. This was before Grimmjow went into his released form.

There are dozens of instances where Cero has destroyed things. I could literally list them and spend my time looking for every single chapter if that is what it really takes.

Ikkaku, when he fought his first arrancar in karakura town near the beginning of the arrancar arc. Edrad Liones made massive craters, destroyed entire city blocks, and made giant pillars of fire appear. He was a fodder arrancar that was defeated when Ikkaku still had his reiatsu repressed to 1/5 of its potential.

As for the Hachibi argument, you cannot say that every single one of his attacks was at the level where it creates giant craters. That is just simply a lie. As for Kenpachi's fight with Nnoitra, if you watch the anime, you can see that nearly all of the attacks produce a shockwave. Even with that, Yourichi's attack that i listed above is nearly on the same level as a the hachibi.
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:00 PM   #99
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

Look here pop 2.0 stop recycling your arguments and thinking you are going to get a different answer.
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:05 PM   #100
Edyl
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Default Re: Four Kages vs Gotei 13 Captains

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils Lawyer View Post
Look here pop 2.0 stop recycling your arguments and thinking you are going to get a different answer.
These are new feats listed, and they answer your arguments.

The arguments we are engaged in are not complex, they are simply trying to compare the magnitude of feats. These are new feats with new magnitudes that need to be addressed.
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