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Old 06-04-2013, 08:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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How the hell is Kakuzu's raiton any different from chidori?

You should really Naruto wiki 'Chidori' before you continue.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:57 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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You should really Naruto wiki 'Chidori' before you continue.
I know what chidori does. How about you wiki Kakuzu and scroll down to what his lightening heart can do. The only difference is that chidori is close range and Kakuzu's lightening is long range. It can pierce too. I know what I'm talking about.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:22 AM   #23
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

They're very different.

Lave doesn't get blown away and I'd like to see Kakazu change hearts after he's incinerated and turned to ash.

Kakazu doesn't start with his hearts out, he is getting blitzed and every twitch there after is going to result in a smash.

What's your speed comparison for these two, also need to see your endurance comparison. Tsunade gets slug up takes out the masks on punch at a time, then full force hits, that kills him and shatters the bridge.

I didn't say he's only good for killing fodder.

I know plenty about his hype, I'm not downplaying him, you should stop downplaying the Kages.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:27 AM   #24
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

Isn't gaara's sand considered a wind element in order to control it? His wide spread attacks would give Kakuzu quite a hard time, and his defense should be able to withstand the raiten heart no? What kind of penetration power are we talking here?

Mei seems to have the most versatile of abilities out of the remaining kages, the issue being that we've only seen her use a little, even so as someone mentioned before, corrosive mist and lava style are going to give Kakuzu quite a bit of trouble, I can't be sure she'd be able to take him down but I am inclined to believe so.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:36 AM   #25
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Isn't gaara's sand considered a wind element in order to control it? His wide spread attacks would give Kakuzu quite a hard time, and his defense should be able to withstand the raiten heart no? What kind of penetration power are we talking here?

Mei seems to have the most versatile of abilities out of the remaining kages, the issue being that we've only seen her use a little, even so as someone mentioned before, corrosive mist and lava style are going to give Kakuzu quite a bit of trouble, I can't be sure she'd be able to take him down but I am inclined to believe so.
At first it was thought to be a side effect of being a jinchurki.
The shukaku also using sand as a method of attack and the bijuu wanting to protect his jinchuriki.

Then later it was revealed to be his 'moms love' in some bizar and unexplained way. Anyway it was never confirmed to have an element.

The mizukage steaming tyranny with an Insane Aoe and deidara C3 where UNABLE to break through post time skip gaaras sand.

Raiton is going to do shiz.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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They're very different.

Lave doesn't get blown away and I'd like to see Kakazu change hearts after he's incinerated and turned to ash.

Kakazu doesn't start with his hearts out, he is getting blitzed and every twitch there after is going to result in a smash.

What's your speed comparison for these two, also need to see your endurance comparison. Tsunade gets slug up takes out the masks on punch at a time, then full force hits, that kills him and shatters the bridge.

I didn't say he's only good for killing fodder.

I know plenty about his hype, I'm not downplaying him, you should stop downplaying the Kages.
Why can't the lava be blown away? Its just lava. If his typhoons could uproot and blow away 50 trees then I'm sure Mei's lava will be blown back in her face. Her mist gets blown away too.

Ok so Ay is just going to walk away then say"Hmm my dead guy is twitching senses are tingling then come running all the way back?" Kakuzu's hearts comes out instantly by the way.

How does Tsunade or her slug hit Kakuzu when he's flying in the air shooting them with elemental blasts? Any acid gets blown away by the wind blasts. Tsunade cant keep healing forever and she can't take having lightening lasers, fire balls, fire waves, typhoons, wind cutter projectiles, whatever the hell the earth heart does in combat fired at her. People thinking Tsunade is Power Girl. She can die you know.

You have yet to explain to me why Kakuzu's lightening release is any different from chidori. They're both lightening attacks just range difference. What is his chidori a magical super special lightening release?

Ay can't attack Kakuzu when he's airborne and neither can Tsunade.

Mei's lava gets blown back at her

Onoki and Gaara I can see winning though.

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Old 06-04-2013, 12:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

Jumping in here to address the Chidori vs. False Darkness (Kakuzu's lightning technique). Chidori is the pinnacle of piercing techniques (ok, technically 3rd Raikage's Nukite jutsu is, but it's just a souped-up rip off of Chidori anyway). The user channels a massive amount of lightning chakra to their hand and then lunges at extreme speed using the momentum to drive their hand through their enemy like a spear. False darkness is just a generic lightning jutsu where lightning bolts shoot at the target. You're trying to equate the jutsu as being the same when they clearly are not. False darkness is absolutely featless as Kakashi blocked the attack and you're trying to maintain that it can cut through the "Ultimate Defense" just because Chidori got through Chuunin Exam Gaara's sand. Putting aside the Chidori vs. False Darkness debate, you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Gaara has massively improved since the Chuunin Exams. Regimental Commander Gaara is on a way different level than Chuunin Exams Gaara, heck, even back in Part One vs. Kimimaro Rock Lee had commented that Gaara had already greatly improved. Finally, immediately after fighting the 3rd Raikage who you would have to be insane to say has lightning techniques on the same level as Kakuzu, Naruto said that he thought Gaara was the one with the strongest defense.

As for Onoki vs. Kakuzu. Check out chapter 588-there is no way Kakuzu can escape an attack on that scale. (It's implied he can use it to even greater effect as well-Island turtle scale)
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Jumping in here to address the Chidori vs. False Darkness (Kakuzu's lightning technique). Chidori is the pinnacle of piercing techniques (ok, technically 3rd Raikage's Nukite jutsu is, but it's just a souped-up rip off of Chidori anyway). The user channels a massive amount of lightning chakra to their hand and then lunges at extreme speed using the momentum to drive their hand through their enemy like a spear. False darkness is just a generic lightning jutsu where lightning bolts shoot at the target. You're trying to equate the jutsu as being the same when they clearly are not. False darkness is absolutely featless as Kakashi blocked the attack and you're trying to maintain that it can cut through the "Ultimate Defense" just because Chidori got through Chuunin Exam Gaara's sand. Putting aside the Chidori vs. False Darkness debate, you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Gaara has massively improved since the Chuunin Exams. Regimental Commander Gaara is on a way different level than Chuunin Exams Gaara, heck, even back in Part One vs. Kimimaro Rock Lee had commented that Gaara had already greatly improved. Finally, immediately after fighting the 3rd Raikage who you would have to be insane to say has lightning techniques on the same level as Kakuzu, Naruto said that he thought Gaara was the one with the strongest defense.

As for Onoki vs. Kakuzu. Check out chapter 588-there is no way Kakuzu can escape an attack on that scale. (It's implied he can use it to even greater effect as well-Island turtle scale)
That "generic lightening" can pierce just like chidori. In the manga lightening has the elemental advantage over earth. Chidori and Kakuzu's lightening are both lightening attacks just different ranges.

Its the same damn thing whether you want to admit it or not. Lightening is lightening. I'm not saying they're the same exact technique but they are both lightening attacks and nothing more.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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That "generic lightening" can pierce just like chidori. In the manga lightening has the elemental advantage over earth. Chidori and Kakuzu's lightening are both lightening attacks just different ranges.

Its the same damn thing whether you want to admit it or not. Lightening is lightening. I'm not saying they're the same exact technique but they are both lightening attacks and nothing more.
No, no, no, no, no. Multiple times we have been told that Chidori was specifically designed for piercing and assassinations. It is a complex technique that mixes nature with shape manipulation for the express purpose of piercing through things. It combines loads of chakra focused at a point with strong momentum to achieve its effect. False Darkness is purely an elemental attack. What has False Darkness been shown to pierce?...oh right, nothing. Derp, it's a lightning release technique, so it pierces is not an acceptable argument. Tsunade's nerve scrambler and Darui's Black Lightning and Wave of Inspiration Jutsu are lightning release jutsu that don't pierce anything.

It would make sense to consider Gaara's sand as earth, because sand is just tiny rocks, but officially Gaara's sand is considered non-elemental right now as no one has commented on him using any kind of earth style and even if it were, we've seen Kishi disregard the elemental advantage circle multiple times if a technique is just too strong (i.e. Raikage shrugging off wind style attacks). The problem here is you're trying to put False Darkness, a featless B-rank jutsu, on the same level as Chidori as well as say that it can pierce the arguably greatest defense in the series. That's a no go.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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No, no, no, no, no. Multiple times we have been told that Chidori was specifically designed for piercing and assassinations. It is a complex technique that mixes nature with shape manipulation for the express purpose of piercing through things. It combines loads of chakra focused at a point with strong momentum to achieve its effect. False Darkness is purely an elemental attack. What has False Darkness been shown to pierce?...oh right, nothing. Derp, it's a lightning release technique, so it pierces is not an acceptable argument. Tsunade's nerve scrambler and Darui's Black Lightning and Wave of Inspiration Jutsu are lightning release jutsu that don't pierce anything.

It would make sense to consider Gaara's sand as earth, because sand is just tiny rocks, but officially Gaara's sand is considered non-elemental right now as no one has commented on him using any kind of earth style and even if it were, we've seen Kishi disregard the elemental advantage circle multiple times if a technique is just too strong (i.e. Raikage shrugging off wind style attacks). The problem here is you're trying to put False Darkness, a featless B-rank jutsu, on the same level as Chidori as well as say that it can pierce the arguably greatest defense in the series. That's a no go.
Lightening is lightening. They're both the same. Deal with it.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:39 PM   #31
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

Actually False Darkness isn't featless. It cancelled two raikiris after all. It has good potency.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

Why does lightening even need feats? Lol its lightening. If it hits you then you're dead.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Actually False Darkness isn't featless. It cancelled two raikiris after all. It has good potency.
I wouldn't say that. Kakashi was the one who initiated the Raikiris as, in my interpretation, a way of funneling and containing the lightning chakra. Kakashi had control of when he activates and deactivates his own technique, and again it has nothing to do with piercing potential as Chidori/Raikiri works through focusing lightening chakra to a point and then using your speed and momentum to drive the attack through. Kakashi was standing still with open palms when he contained the attacks. If anything it comments on the amount of chakra put into the attacks and nothing else. But, if you want to compare the amount of chakra in False Darkness to the chakra in Gaara's sand...

@topchef: If you can't understand that different Raiton jutsu do different things, I can't help you.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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I wouldn't say that. Kakashi was the one who initiated the Raikiris as, in my interpretation, a way of funneling and containing the lightning chakra. Kakashi had control of when he activates and deactivates his own technique, and again it has nothing to do with piercing potential as Chidori/Raikiri works through focusing lightening chakra to a point and then using your speed and momentum to drive the attack through. Kakashi was standing still with open palms when he contained the attacks. If anything it comments on the amount of chakra put into the attacks and nothing else. But, if you want to compare the amount of chakra in False Darkness to the chakra in Gaara's sand.
in narutoverse lightning is both piercing or shocking. One or the other.

False Darkness actually even removed Kakashi's gloves away.

In the databook it is said to casually crush rock. Regardless the rock part, the fact it crushes seems to imply piercing.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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in narutoverse lightning is both piercing or shocking. One or the other.

False Darkness actually even removed Kakashi's gloves away.

In the databook it is said to casually crush rock. Regardless the rock part, the fact it crushes seems to imply piercing.
Well, I don't think there is any stone tablet that says, piercing or shocking one or the other, although I definitely don't disagree that it could pierce things. For some reason removing gloves doesn't seem that impressive to me .

Databooks aren't primary canon, but again lots of things can pierce rock, although-the Ultimate Defense-I don't think so. If we want to play the implying game then it's implied that Gaara's Defense is on par with the 3rd Raikage's Nukite jutsu which is bar none the strongest piercing attack in the series with Naruto commenting that Gaara has a stronger defense than the 3rd Raikage. My problem with the others statements is that they try to equate False Darkness to Chidori when the latter was specifically designed to pierce things combining shape and nature manipulation with high speed movement, whereas False Darkness is a B-rank nature manipulation only technique. Unlike False Darkness Gaara's sand actually does have defensive feats (and against lightning too)-blocking C3, Joki Boi, five Susano'o swords and a kick from A.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:35 PM   #36
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Well, I don't think there is any stone tablet that says, piercing or shocking one or the other, although I definitely don't disagree that it could pierce things. For some reason removing gloves doesn't seem that impressive to me .
Removing gloves is actually important because it means that it had enough force to cancel out the raikiri itself and go little beyond.

Although perhaps its a little different if KAkashi did a full thrust charge with raikiri but still it shows strong potency in concentratin.

Quote:
Gaara's Defense is on par with the 3rd Raikage's Nukite jutsu which is bar none the strongest piercing attack in the series with Naruto commenting that Gaara has a stronger defense than the 3rd Raikage.
5 Susanoo swords broke through it though.

That Naruto statement makes me wonder if he was truly being serious or knew what he was talking about.

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My problem with the others statements is that they try to equate False Darkness to Chidori when the latter was specifically designed to pierce things combining shape and nature manipulation with high speed movement, whereas False Darkness is a B-rank nature manipulation only technique. Unlike False Darkness Gaara's sand actually does have defensive feats (and against lightning too)-blocking C3, Joki Boi, five Susano'o swords and a kick from A.
Lightning also functions as piercing too. YOu know Kisame's comment with Killerbee's raiton pencil?

And his ration is just pure ration chakra without anything else.

Maybe full thrust raikiri could break gian but anyway.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Removing gloves is actually important because it means that it had enough force to cancel out the raikiri itself and go little beyond.

Although perhaps its a little different if KAkashi did a full thrust charge with raikiri but still it shows strong potency in concentratin.
My interpretation is that Kakashi was having difficulty containing/channeling the foreign lightning and some of it escaped his control, frying his gloves. I didn't see it as one force against another, but his using his own lightning technique to redirect the other one. I'll give you that it does seem to imply that there was a decent amount of chakra put into it though, although, again compared to a chakra monster like Gaara, it doesn't mean much.



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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
5 Susanoo swords broke through it though.

That Naruto statement makes me wonder if he was truly being serious or knew what he was talking about.
True, but that was just one layer of automatic defensive sand while his attention was focused elsewhere and he himself was not actually damaged by the attack. It's not like he had his eggshell up, or the Shukaku looking shield, or just multiple layers of sand in the way. (Also has one more layer of Sand Armor for protection as well). Yeah, the Naruto statement was a bit hokey since he hadn't seen Gaara since after the 5 Kage summit, and the last time we have confirmation of him seeing Gaara in action directly was during their fight after the Chuunin Exams, although it does give a sense of the author's ideas.



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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Lightning also functions as piercing too. YOu know Kisame's comment with Killerbee's raiton pencil?

And his ration is just pure ration chakra without anything else.

Maybe full thrust raikiri could break gian but anyway.
I know, I've seen lots of Raiton techniques, like Chidori senbon and the like, but it's a lot different comparing a generic lightning technique to one in which the user builds up chakra at the point of their hand and then bull rushes the opponent, sacrificing reaction abilities, all to maximize piercing potential.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage View Post
My interpretation is that Kakashi was having difficulty containing/channeling the foreign lightning and some of it escaped his control, frying his gloves. I didn't see it as one force against another, but his using his own lightning technique to redirect the other one. I'll give you that it does seem to imply that there was a decent amount of chakra put into it though, although, again compared to a chakra monster like Gaara, it doesn't mean much.
But two things are clashing. Its one force on another.

It does show higher level of ration potency such as for a b rank jutsu.

I mean Ranton: Laser Circus did not pierce as well but its a higher level implied technique.



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I know, I've seen lots of Raiton techniques, like Chidori senbon and the like, but it's a lot different comparing a generic lightning technique to one in which the user builds up chakra at the point of their hand and then bull rushes the opponent, sacrificing reaction abilities, all to maximize piercing potential.
rank signifies difficulty of the jutsu not necessarily power.

Gian simply could have so much chakra output that it evens it out.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

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Why does lightening even need feats? Lol its lightening. If it hits you then you're dead.
Nope even normal people who dont have had any sort of disciplining/training can survive natural lightning strikes multiple times.

And kakashi isnt dead.

Thats why lightning needs feats.

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
Removing gloves is actually important because it means that it had enough force to cancel out the raikiri itself and go little beyond.

Although perhaps its a little different if KAkashi did a full thrust charge with raikiri but still it shows strong potency in concentratin.



5 Susanoo swords broke through it though.
Couldnt that force have been from overcharging his raikiris. We saw a similiar thing with pts sasuke when he rushed at itachi. Overcharging his chidori to the point of damaging his skin.

5 susano'o swords, ima go crazy here and say those should be stronger then 1 lightning jutsu from kakazu considering we are talking about the strongest uchiha and main antogonist of the manga here.
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on black person kage when his susuano grabbed him and he put him in ms genjutsu with tsuki.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:21 PM   #40
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Default Re: Kakuzu vs. kages (1 by 1)

I thought Itachi broke Sasuke's hand?

We never saw any other case of overcharging of raikiri though.

Anyway my only statement on KAkuzu and Gaara is that, Raiton Gian is his best weapon against Gaara.

While Kakuzu's aoe and destructive capabity is pretty good, Gaara just has the quanitity and quality.


Now I am not sure where to put Doton Domu vs Gaara's sand tombing
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