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Old 05-20-2012, 09:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
1.) Now you're just getting desperate. Name one time Naruto's clones have been out of sync and bumped into each other. I can't believe you actually just tried to use that as an argument. Naruto's never had a problem fighting with clones before. They've never restricted each other's movements, ever. And if they fight in wide open space like the battlefields we've been seeing the war take place in, what you're saying would be even more ridiculous. This isn't genin Naruto after just learning Kage Bunshin, this is S rank Naruto who can perform the technique flawlessly and has fought many intense battles using clones.
lol! That's because all of them keep dashing in the same direction!!
Drop a meteor(just a metaphor) between them and then they will have to scatter and that's when you realize how they themselves restrict their movements.
If Sasuke were to use his Amaterasu on a group of Naruto RM clones, do you think those clones in the middle will be able to go hyper-speed instantly?
They can't because they are surrounded by other clones. Those on the sides may not react fast enough to clear the space.
Even if they jump, there will always be a few who may get caught.

It has nothing to do with if one can perform the technique flawlessly...
Restricted movement is inherent consequence of being in a crowd.
And all the more if the area is confined.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
And if the Amaterasu spam you were referring to was Sasuke making an Amaterasu circle around himself. That restricts his movements more than Naruto's, you do understand that. What you're saying is like if we were on a beach and you drew a circle in the sand and stand in the middle, then you go "AHA I have restricted your movements." You definitely have but I get an entire beach to maneuver around while you have cornered yourself.
No I am not referring to making a circle around oneself...

Imagine a chess-board...
The black colured tiles represent the places where Amaterasu is burning while the white colored tiles have no amaterasu...
Now this is only for helping you imagine. Sasuke spamming Amaterasu on ground doesn't have to resemble a chess-board.

Even using Amaterasu this way will somewhat restrict Sasuke's movement.
But Naruto speed will be severely restricted compared to Sasuke's.
So now Naruto's speed is slowed down so Sasuke can keep up with him even with his normal speed.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
2.) Is that the best you can do with the hawk summon? You do know in Sage Mode Naruto, Ma, and Pa can jump like 200 feet in the air and Ma and Pa have tongues at least 50 feet long. Pa jumps into the air and uses Frog Screech to paralyze the hawk and Sasuke like Kabuto's white rage attack did. Ma jumps behind them and grabs the hawk's leg with her superstrong tongue and slams it into the ground, poof goes the hawk. Naruto with 40 Sage Mode clones has several Sage Art Oodoma Rasengans set up and rams them into Susano'o like he did the Kyuubi. Two RM Mode clones are sitting back with FRS's charged up and they throw them, Sasuke has no defense...game over.
Pa jumps into air...
Sasuke shoots a Susanoo arrow right through his chest or maybe mouth.
Ma cannot grab the hawk's leg because it will fly away...
End of story.

Sage mode or not, Pa cannot dodge that attack while he is in the air-unless he knows how to fly.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Your point about Sage Mode doesn't matter. Yes, it is possible that only one clone can use it at a time, but that one clone can also make Sage Mode clones (in case you forgot his clone used clones against Third Raikage and Madara).
And I have given enough reasons why the number of clones doesn't matter anymore
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
3.) Umm, I don't know how to break this to you but Sasuke uses stabbing attacks too, as a matter of fact the first two moves we every saw him use with his sword were stabbing attacks...one to kill Naruto and the other to attack Yamato.
And if you remember correctly, at that time, Sasuke was standing with his arm around Naruto.
Obviously, he couldn't swing his sword freely.

I'm not saying you cannot stab using the chokuto, but just that the sword is meant for cut and slash attacks, not stabbing. So that has to be Sasuke's primary fighting style.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
As for the chakra arms who says they have to grab the sword. You do remember when Edo Nagato was using Asura Path against Naruto...Bee who's a far better swordsman than Sasuke tried to attack Nagato from a blindspot with his swords and Nagato used multiple mechanical attachments to grab Bee's arms and throat. Naruto could do the exact same thing in RM Mode.
I hope your are joking!
That has to be the most suicidal tactic Naruto can come up with.
While you may think Naruto is effectively sealing Sasuke's movement, it means the same for Naruto.
Naruto cannot use his hyper speed if he is holding onto Sasuke like that.
And there goes his defense against Sasuke's Amaterasu.
Naruto will receive full blast of Amaterasu right in his face!
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
4.) Every idiot who's ever seen FRS knows it's nothing to play around with, you don't need a sharingan for that, even Chouji and Ino figured it out. The real surprise is that it can be thrown at high speeds. That was something Ma, Pa, and Pain did not know and if you think Sasuke will be able to guess that you're overhyping him big time.
I am not over-hyping Sasuke.
But it's rather you who keeps forgetting sharingan's abilities that you fail to notice the difference in those who have it and those who don't.

Even if FRS can be thrown at high speeds-it not impossible to dodge.
Nagato dodged that and he cannot even use sharingan's abilities.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
5.) Why are we even having this Raiton Armor debate. Not only has Sasuke not demonstrated it on panel. Not only can you not prove it's a KKG. But Sasuke had the perfect opportunity to demonstrate the ability in this most recent fight. He was facing an opponent in Sage Mode (just like Naruto will be in) and he got completely outclassed. He was clueless about the precog. and him and Itachi got speedblitzed numerous times, one resulting in Itachi getting sliced in half with Sasuke standing there shocked and helpless. If you think after that display that (1) he is hiding some powerful technique that gives him a boost in speed and reflexes and (2) that he fought well against Sage Mode. You must be crazy or Kishi must be trolling.
I am not debating it.
Nor am I assuming Sasuke has the Raiton armour, since there are methods to slow down Naruto.

I am just trying rectify some wrong information.

Except dojutsu techniques, all KKG techniques use two types of elemental chakra simultaneously.
e.g Water + Wind = Ice
Water + Earth = Wood
Raiton Armour uses only one i.e Lightning element.
There is nothing that suggests that it requires more than one type of elemental chakra. If it did, it means A can use one more type of elemental chakra.
A has not demonstrated any other type of elemental affinity.
So Raiton armour is NOT a KKG.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
6.) I understand that a fight isn't just speed and power, that should be obvious from my first post where I broke down intel and technique counters. Sasuke is just completely outclassed here and you fail to admit it. There are too many things he doesn't know about and although he can counter them in theory like you've demonstrated, on a battlefield it's just not going to happen. I don't get how you could see him almost get overwhelmed by Kabuto like that and then assume he will be fine against 15 opponents that can fight on par with Kabuto and share some of his abilities. Sasuke couldn't land one hit on SM Kabuto because of the precog. and enhanced speed. The best he could do was catch Kabuto's tail in an arrow. I understand Kabuto is much more intelligent than Naruto and has a variety of techniques but that should at least tell you something.
Remember that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Kabuto-Itachi always kept warning Sasuke to not use excessive strength

That being said, you may look at this fight as a failure from Sasuke-but at the same time, it can also be considered as valuable experience for Sasuke.
Sasuke now has intel about Sage mode, knows that sound genjutsu cannot be blocked by Susanoo, got some extra training in using his new EMS, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Naruto doesn't need bijuu mode to win. I can provide at least twenty scenarios where it's not necessary. Some of them I wrote above.
I will tell you what the problem with those scenarios is:
You never stop to think how Sasuke could counter Naruto's attacks!
You imagine Sasuke to be like a sitting duck waiting to take an attack head-on.
You need to remind yourself that this is not a turn-based RPG, where a player can act only after his opponents turn is over...
It's more like real-time RPG where every player is constantly on a move.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:02 PM   #42
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by K3nsh!n View Post
lol! That's because all of them keep dashing in the same direction!!
Drop a meteor(just a metaphor) between them and then they will have to scatter and that's when you realize how they themselves restrict their movements.
If Sasuke were to use his Amaterasu on a group of Naruto RM clones, do you think those clones in the middle will be able to go hyper-speed instantly?
They can't because they are surrounded by other clones. Those on the sides may not react fast enough to clear the space.
Even if they jump, there will always be a few who may get caught.

It has nothing to do with if one can perform the technique flawlessly...
Restricted movement is inherent consequence of being in a crowd.
And all the more if the area is confined.

No I am not referring to making a circle around oneself...

Imagine a chess-board...
The black colured tiles represent the places where Amaterasu is burning while the white colored tiles have no amaterasu...
Now this is only for helping you imagine. Sasuke spamming Amaterasu on ground doesn't have to resemble a chess-board.

Even using Amaterasu this way will somewhat restrict Sasuke's movement.
But Naruto speed will be severely restricted compared to Sasuke's.
So now Naruto's speed is slowed down so Sasuke can keep up with him even with his normal speed.

Pa jumps into air...
Sasuke shoots a Susanoo arrow right through his chest or maybe mouth.
Ma cannot grab the hawk's leg because it will fly away...
End of story.

Sage mode or not, Pa cannot dodge that attack while he is in the air-unless he knows how to fly.

And I have given enough reasons why the number of clones doesn't matter anymore

And if you remember correctly, at that time, Sasuke was standing with his arm around Naruto.
Obviously, he couldn't swing his sword freely.

I'm not saying you cannot stab using the chokuto, but just that the sword is meant for cut and slash attacks, not stabbing. So that has to be Sasuke's primary fighting style.

I hope your are joking!
That has to be the most suicidal tactic Naruto can come up with.
While you may think Naruto is effectively sealing Sasuke's movement, it means the same for Naruto.
Naruto cannot use his hyper speed if he is holding onto Sasuke like that.
And there goes his defense against Sasuke's Amaterasu.
Naruto will receive full blast of Amaterasu right in his face!

I am not over-hyping Sasuke.
But it's rather you who keeps forgetting sharingan's abilities that you fail to notice the difference in those who have it and those who don't.

Even if FRS can be thrown at high speeds-it not impossible to dodge.
Nagato dodged that and he cannot even use sharingan's abilities.

I am not debating it.
Nor am I assuming Sasuke has the Raiton armour, since there are methods to slow down Naruto.

I am just trying rectify some wrong information.

Except dojutsu techniques, all KKG techniques use two types of elemental chakra simultaneously.
e.g Water + Wind = Ice
Water + Earth = Wood
Raiton Armour uses only one i.e Lightning element.
There is nothing that suggests that it requires more than one type of elemental chakra. If it did, it means A can use one more type of elemental chakra.
A has not demonstrated any other type of elemental affinity.
So Raiton armour is NOT a KKG.

Remember that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Kabuto-Itachi always kept warning Sasuke to not use excessive strength

That being said, you may look at this fight as a failure from Sasuke-but at the same time, it can also be considered as valuable experience for Sasuke.
Sasuke now has intel about Sage mode, knows that sound genjutsu cannot be blocked by Susanoo, got some extra training in using his new EMS, etc

I will tell you what the problem with those scenarios is:
You never stop to think how Sasuke could counter Naruto's attacks!
You imagine Sasuke to be like a sitting duck waiting to take an attack head-on.
You need to remind yourself that this is not a turn-based RPG, where a player can act only after his opponents turn is over...
It's more like real-time RPG where every player is constantly on a move.
1.) For some reason you have Sasuke spamming Amaterasu on an unprecedented scale. Not only is it completely out of character for him to use Amaterasu like that, but it is a tremendous chakra drain even with EMS. That's why he didn't do it against A who was pummeling him and also has to physically travel distances to move. Name one time Sasuke's lit large parts of the ground on fire to restrict movements. Like I've already told you, even if he doesn't make a circle, Amaterasu that restricts his movements too which is not a good idea against an opponent who has larger numbers than yourself. Of course Sasuke could always stop the flames whenever he wants but that takes concentration. The detriments of restricting Naruto's superspeed outweigh the benefits.

And Naruto doesn't always make his clones just standing in a crowd. As a matter of fact the first time he made his clones in RM Mode as soon as he formed them they all scattered in different directions. They don't stand there like lambs waiting for the slaughter. If Sasuke were to try to incinerate one he would have to deal with 10 others about to kill him. Your Amaterasu plan just isn't feasible.

2.) Ma, Pa, and Naruto can actually change the direction of their jump mid air and Sage Mode gives you precog. so no my plan still works very well. Not to mention Pa can use wind release stream to knock the arrow off course. And Ma's tongue would extend way too fast for that hawk to get away. She was in mid conversation with Jiraiya and before Animal Path and the chameleon could react they were getting crushed by it.

3.) No I'm not joking, not only do I think Naruto would be fast enough to kill Sasuke before he got incinerated but he could easily just use the arm to force Sasuke's chin upwards, it's not that hard. The arms are strong enough to crush giant rocks effortlessly if anything holding Sasuke without breaking his neck would be the difficult part.

4.) No, it's not impossible to dodge just really difficult to. Pain was a very long distance away from it and Human Path still didn't get away. Third Raikage had to do the Matrix with his superspeed just so he could avoid it. And here comes the intel problem again, Sasuke doesn't know that FRS can be thrown over and over thanks to RM Naruto's new abilities.

Naruto throws FRS, Sasuke barely manages to dodge, there's an RM Mode clone waiting behind him, he catches it and boom right in Sasuke's blind spot. And this is just with one FRS, can you imagine two or three.

5.) Ahh I see your point now. Yes technically I was wrong, it is not a KKG. I meant it's more like a unique technique that can't be copied with the sharingan. Kind of like Darui's Black Lightning or Gai's taijutsu. It's a technique unique to the Third and Fourth Raikage that Sasuke doesn't have the ability to copy.

And no, Itachi's warning about excessive force wouldn't apply in the Kabuto scenario. The Third Raikage who's 10 times stronger than Sasuke was going to punch Naruto in the face with full on lightning armor, to knock him out and capture him. Sasuke would've had nothing to fear if he used lightning armor, the most likely explanation is that he can't.

6.) I have been thinking about Sasuke's counters, I just don't think any of them would work lol. I understand this whole thing is a real time battle. I just don't have Sasuke keeping up. I don't see any of his techniques being effective enough to stop Naruto's onslaught, all the things you've shown me so far could only slow him down.

If there were things I didn't address just assume I am acknowledging you had a good point and leaving them alone.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:53 PM   #43
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

To be fair Naruto's clones lost sync when his stomach growled and they all had to go to the bathroom when they were about to tie up Sasuke again.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
1.) For some reason you have Sasuke spamming Amaterasu on an unprecedented scale. Not only is it completely out of character for him to use Amaterasu like that, but it is a tremendous chakra drain even with EMS. That's why he didn't do it against A who was pummeling him and also has to physically travel distances to move. Name one time Sasuke's lit large parts of the ground on fire to restrict movements. Like I've already told you, even if he doesn't make a circle, Amaterasu that restricts his movements too which is not a good idea against an opponent who has larger numbers than yourself. Of course Sasuke could always stop the flames whenever he wants but that takes concentration. The detriments of restricting Naruto's superspeed outweigh the benefits.
When Sasuke fought A, he only had the MS.
Now Sasuke has an EMS. The EMS no longer strains his eyes. And even the chakra consumption seems to be reduced.
Sasuke doesn't even need to concentrate his EMS on a particular spot to cast Amaterasu. His Susanoo weapons includes Amaterasu orb which can launch tomoe shaped Amaterasu flames.
So it's not on an unprecedented scale.

It's advantages that outweigh the disadvantages, not the other way round...
Sasuke's ultimate technique is the Susanoo-since we still haven't seen any new EMS technique.
While using Susanoo his speed is naturally slowed down-especially in the complete form. So he is at no more disadvantage than while using Susanoo.

But Naruto is at even more disadvantage.
Because he is unable to use his full speed due to Amaterasu burning on ground at every few feet-he becomes more susceptible to further Amterasu attacks(the one cast directly from the eye)
And because Naruto's clones are larger in number, they are more likely to get burned.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
And Naruto doesn't always make his clones just standing in a crowd. As a matter of fact the first time he made his clones in RM Mode as soon as he formed them they all scattered in different directions. They don't stand there like lambs waiting for the slaughter. If Sasuke were to try to incinerate one he would have to deal with 10 others about to kill him. Your Amaterasu plan just isn't feasible.
Obviously those clones would scatter in different directions-Naruto made them to target the Zetsus who were also scattered everywhere, didn't he?
If there is only one target they will normally go in the the same direction-unless he is trying to surround the enemy.
But even then their movements gets restricted if the number is too large.
So Naruto cannot create too many clones but if he creates very few he might not get the advantage.
The best compromise for Naruto would be to create a normal clone to go SM, and rest other as RM clones-their max no now limited because one clone is going SM

With Susanoo's weapons, Amaterasu plan is feasible.
Sasuke doesn't even need to use the complete version.
Say Sasuke brings out two Susanoo arms with that rib-cage
He keeps launching tomoe-shaped Amaterasu flames at Naruto and his clones, sometimes from the eye.
At the same time, arms also play some part in keeping distance from Naruto's clones. The rib-cage provides some measure of protection against surprise attacks.
While Naruto thinks he is successfully dodging Sasuke's Amaterasu, he is actually falling into Sasuke's trap.
Within a minute the entire field has Amaterasu burning everywhere. A few RM clones get caught in that fire, because there are too busy concentrating on dodging Sasuke's attacks by using hyper-speed, they forget to take note of their surrounding(very typical of Naruto). While a few clones disappear, the others learn from their "experience". Now they not only have to also focus on Sasuke's attacks but also have to take notice of their surrounding. Now they can't use their speed blindly.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
2.) Ma, Pa, and Naruto can actually change the direction of their jump mid air and Sage Mode gives you precog. so no my plan still works very well. Not to mention Pa can use wind release stream to knock the arrow off course. And Ma's tongue would extend way too fast for that hawk to get away. She was in mid conversation with Jiraiya and before Animal Path and the chameleon could react they were getting crushed by it.
Where did you get the idea that Ma and Pa can change directions in mid-air? o_O
In a free-fall you can't simply change directions. Even Naruto can't unless he uses clones.
And Ma an Pa never used clones-means they can't.

Using wind release to knock arrow?
You do realize that an arrow has very little air resistance in the direction it travels? It won't get blown off course so easily, unless wind hit it form the sides, which considering the current scenario seems unlikely.
It's more likely that Pa will manage to dodge that arrow because he himself will get blown off-course than that arrow itself

Even if it could be done-it's highly impractical.
If Pa is planing to use frog-screech he needs to be preparing for that technique while jumping in order to save time. He cannot prepare for frog-screech and then simply switch to wind release technique. Same with using clones i.e if he can.

If Pa does somehow uses a technique to dodge that arrow, he will then require some time prepare frog-screech. By this time he will have already lost the momentum from his jump and begin to fall.

Not to mention, Sasuke could shoot another arrow by this time.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
3.) No I'm not joking, not only do I think Naruto would be fast enough to kill Sasuke before he got incinerated but he could easily just use the arm to force Sasuke's chin upwards, it's not that hard. The arms are strong enough to crush giant rocks effortlessly if anything holding Sasuke without breaking his neck would be the difficult part.
Only if you are assuming Sasuke is not using his Susanoo.
Susanoo's chakra/aura will prevent Sasuke from getting crushed. Naruto can't even get a hold on Sasuke in the first place, if he is using Susanoo.
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4.) No, it's not impossible to dodge just really difficult to. Pain was a very long distance away from it and Human Path still didn't get away. Third Raikage had to do the Matrix with his superspeed just so he could avoid it.
But it can be dodged. Rest others did escape.

Even if the distance is less than what Pain faced-which is unlikely since we are expecting the fight in an open area-Sasuke's sharingan helps him predict Naruto's movement and gives a much earlier warning
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
And here comes the intel problem again, Sasuke doesn't know that FRS can be thrown over and over thanks to RM Naruto's new abilities.
Naruto throws FRS, Sasuke barely manages to dodge, there's an RM Mode clone waiting behind him, he catches it and boom right in Sasuke's blind spot. And this is just with one FRS, can you imagine two or three.
That's if he manages to hit from Sasuke's blind spot.
Depending on the situation, there is always a possibility that Sasuke could escape and once he knows that the FRS could be thrown again and again he will be more cautious. Naruto loses the advantage of surprise.

On the other hand what if Naruto's throws his FRS and Sasuke hits it with his tomoe-shaped Amaterasu flames in mid-air?
Amaterasu is the highest level fire release technique and wind element being naturally weaker against fire element, Amaterasu may simply eat away Naruto's FRS!!
Or there could be an big explosion and Amaterasu may multiply in volume.(free Ammy for Sasuke...lol)
Since Sasuke can control Amterasu he can prevent damage to himself-Amaterasu won't even touch him.
But Naruto and his clones will get caught in that explosion.
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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
5.) Ahh I see your point now. Yes technically I was wrong, it is not a KKG. I meant it's more like a unique technique that can't be copied with the sharingan. Kind of like Darui's Black Lightning or Gai's taijutsu. It's a technique unique to the Third and Fourth Raikage that Sasuke doesn't have the ability to copy.

And no, Itachi's warning about excessive force wouldn't apply in the Kabuto scenario. The Third Raikage who's 10 times stronger than Sasuke was going to punch Naruto in the face with full on lightning armor, to knock him out and capture him. Sasuke would've had nothing to fear if he used lightning armor, the most likely explanation is that he can't.
Let me make this clear again.
I'm NOT assuming Sasuke can use Lightning armour. So maybe we can stop debating on this Lightning armour issue?
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6.) I have been thinking about Sasuke's counters, I just don't think any of them would work lol. I understand this whole thing is a real time battle. I just don't have Sasuke keeping up. I don't see any of his techniques being effective enough to stop Naruto's onslaught, all the things you've shown me so far could only slow him down.
From what I see, the only real/indisputable advantage Naruto has against Sasuke is his large pool of chakra/stamina which lets him create large number of clones.
Everything else Naruto has, there are ways to counter it, within Sasuke's existing capabilities.
If Sasuke loses, it's not because there is no way to counter Naruto's attacks, but simply because he will run out of chakra.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:31 AM   #45
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

Quote:
Originally Posted by K3nsh!n View Post
When Sasuke fought A, he only had the MS.
Now Sasuke has an EMS. The EMS no longer strains his eyes. And even the chakra consumption seems to be reduced.
Sasuke doesn't even need to concentrate his EMS on a particular spot to cast Amaterasu. His Susanoo weapons includes Amaterasu orb which can launch tomoe shaped Amaterasu flames.
So it's not on an unprecedented scale.

It's advantages that outweigh the disadvantages, not the other way round...
Sasuke's ultimate technique is the Susanoo-since we still haven't seen any new EMS technique.
While using Susanoo his speed is naturally slowed down-especially in the complete form. So he is at no more disadvantage than while using Susanoo.

But Naruto is at even more disadvantage.
Because he is unable to use his full speed due to Amaterasu burning on ground at every few feet-he becomes more susceptible to further Amterasu attacks(the one cast directly from the eye)
And because Naruto's clones are larger in number, they are more likely to get burned.

Obviously those clones would scatter in different directions-Naruto made them to target the Zetsus who were also scattered everywhere, didn't he?
If there is only one target they will normally go in the the same direction-unless he is trying to surround the enemy.
But even then their movements gets restricted if the number is too large.
So Naruto cannot create too many clones but if he creates very few he might not get the advantage.
The best compromise for Naruto would be to create a normal clone to go SM, and rest other as RM clones-their max no now limited because one clone is going SM

With Susanoo's weapons, Amaterasu plan is feasible.
Sasuke doesn't even need to use the complete version.
Say Sasuke brings out two Susanoo arms with that rib-cage
He keeps launching tomoe-shaped Amaterasu flames at Naruto and his clones, sometimes from the eye.
At the same time, arms also play some part in keeping distance from Naruto's clones. The rib-cage provides some measure of protection against surprise attacks.
While Naruto thinks he is successfully dodging Sasuke's Amaterasu, he is actually falling into Sasuke's trap.
Within a minute the entire field has Amaterasu burning everywhere. A few RM clones get caught in that fire, because there are too busy concentrating on dodging Sasuke's attacks by using hyper-speed, they forget to take note of their surrounding(very typical of Naruto). While a few clones disappear, the others learn from their "experience". Now they not only have to also focus on Sasuke's attacks but also have to take notice of their surrounding. Now they can't use their speed blindly.

Where did you get the idea that Ma and Pa can change directions in mid-air? o_O
In a free-fall you can't simply change directions. Even Naruto can't unless he uses clones.
And Ma an Pa never used clones-means they can't.

Using wind release to knock arrow?
You do realize that an arrow has very little air resistance in the direction it travels? It won't get blown off course so easily, unless wind hit it form the sides, which considering the current scenario seems unlikely.
It's more likely that Pa will manage to dodge that arrow because he himself will get blown off-course than that arrow itself

Even if it could be done-it's highly impractical.
If Pa is planing to use frog-screech he needs to be preparing for that technique while jumping in order to save time. He cannot prepare for frog-screech and then simply switch to wind release technique. Same with using clones i.e if he can.

If Pa does somehow uses a technique to dodge that arrow, he will then require some time prepare frog-screech. By this time he will have already lost the momentum from his jump and begin to fall.

Not to mention, Sasuke could shoot another arrow by this time.

Only if you are assuming Sasuke is not using his Susanoo.
Susanoo's chakra/aura will prevent Sasuke from getting crushed. Naruto can't even get a hold on Sasuke in the first place, if he is using Susanoo.

But it can be dodged. Rest others did escape.

Even if the distance is less than what Pain faced-which is unlikely since we are expecting the fight in an open area-Sasuke's sharingan helps him predict Naruto's movement and gives a much earlier warning

That's if he manages to hit from Sasuke's blind spot.
Depending on the situation, there is always a possibility that Sasuke could escape and once he knows that the FRS could be thrown again and again he will be more cautious. Naruto loses the advantage of surprise.

On the other hand what if Naruto's throws his FRS and Sasuke hits it with his tomoe-shaped Amaterasu flames in mid-air?
Amaterasu is the highest level fire release technique and wind element being naturally weaker against fire element, Amaterasu may simply eat away Naruto's FRS!!
Or there could be an big explosion and Amaterasu may multiply in volume.(free Ammy for Sasuke...lol)
Since Sasuke can control Amterasu he can prevent damage to himself-Amaterasu won't even touch him.
But Naruto and his clones will get caught in that explosion.

Let me make this clear again.
I'm NOT assuming Sasuke can use Lightning armour. So maybe we can stop debating on this Lightning armour issue?

From what I see, the only real/indisputable advantage Naruto has against Sasuke is his large pool of chakra/stamina which lets him create large number of clones.
Everything else Naruto has, there are ways to counter it, within Sasuke's existing capabilities.
If Sasuke loses, it's not because there is no way to counter Naruto's attacks, but simply because he will run out of chakra.
1.) Now who's the one not thinking about the other opponent's counters. Is that seriously your image of Naruto clones. Naruto standing there dancing around like a 10 year old, laughing because Sasuke can't hit him. He doesn't dodge over and over without attacking until Sasuke's got the field covered. His clones dodge and immediately attack before Sasuke can continue. As soon as RM Naruto clones dodge the first two or three tomoe Amaterasu they speed blitz Sasuke before he can create anymore. Then Sasuke's only options become to corner himself or flee. He's not ever going to even get the chance to change the battlefield like that. After even his first Amaterasu attack three or four clones get near him and hit Susano'o with Rasengan Planet, Big Ball Rasengan, or or mini FRS destroying the armor for more attacks.

2.) The direction change was a misinterpretation of panels. Although your argument about Pa's wind release being unable to alter the course of the arrow is pretty weak. I already mentioned SM precog. enhancing Pa's reflexes and it doesn't take a genius to know that any sort of resistance changes the path of a projectile. Pa is already an extremely small target, blowing a powerful gust of wind at an arrow could easily change it's direction and even if you want to argue that point you just solved the problem you presented by saying Pa could change his own direction with the wind, there you go, he uses his wind stream to propel himself upwards....two solutions take your pick. And Pa jumps even higher than Naruto given that he is a frog and has used Sage Mode for a longer period of time. Long after Naruto reached the apex of his jump Pa was still rising so the momentum argument doesn't really work.

But since you want to keep attacking that scenario here's another one that works just as well. Sasuke takes to his hawk to get a better view of the battlefield. Ma uses Dust Cloud. Sasuke is gliding over the cloud thinking of a plan for attack and Ma uses her fast tongue to surprise the unsuspecting bird and Sasuke and grabs the hawk's talon and slams it into the ground.

I could use multiple scenarios here. You're never going to be able to argue that Sasuke's hawk helps him flee from the toads while he still remains in the battle. Either the hawk takes him away completely or it keeps him within range of their attacks.

3.) Of course I was assuming Sasuke wasn't using Susano'o when has he ever simultaneously used kenjutsu and Susano'o. And although it is possible for Sasuke to activate Susano'o in that scenario I doubt he'd get the entire defense up fast enough to tank all the damage at close range. A showed us that Sasuke can still be hurt inside the ribcage.

4.) One more time...Sasuke's sharingan does NOT let him know whether or not FRS can be thrown. Yes, Sasuke might be able to predict by Naruto's arms that he is about to throw it but that gives him half a second of reaction time at most. That's not good enough from close range and it's barely enough from medium range as we saw from Sasuke barely dodging A's elbow. Oh and I forgot to mention that Sasuke doesn't know that FRS expands.

There's still the problem of an RM clone catching it after Sasuke's dodged and throwing it right into his back point blank, like Naruto did against Third Raikage. Unless you want to be ridiculous and say that while dodging FRS Sasuke is able to monitor the actions of clones that move faster than he can see, yes a clone will be able to get into his blind spot to catch it and throw it again. Hell if anything the one who threw the FRS could get there. And Sasuke wouldn't even be expecting that in the first place.

And this is all under the generous assumption that Naruto only uses one FRS at a time to keep the fight close. In theory Naruto clones could use 5 or 10 and bounce them all over the battlefield with his chakra arms, Sasuke's only hope would be to magically develop the Rinnegan so he can use Deva Path.

5.) He will not only lose because he runs out of chakra. He will lose because 15+ Kage level opponents completely overwhelmed him in battle and he had no idea what half of their abilities were before he entered the fight.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #46
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

Kenshin, Sasuke's eyes still bleed when Casting ammy. Just skimmed through and wanted to point that out


But pretty sure Sasuke has no way of touching Naruto while Naruto has multiple ways of trashing Sasuke.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:54 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
1.) Now who's the one not thinking about the other opponent's counters. Is that seriously your image of Naruto clones. Naruto standing there dancing around like a 10 year old, laughing because Sasuke can't hit him. He doesn't dodge over and over without attacking until Sasuke's got the field covered. His clones dodge and immediately attack before Sasuke can continue. As soon as RM Naruto clones dodge the first two or three tomoe Amaterasu they speed blitz Sasuke before he can create anymore. Then Sasuke's only options become to corner himself or flee. He's not ever going to even get the chance to change the battlefield like that. After even his first Amaterasu attack three or four clones get near him and hit Susano'o with Rasengan Planet, Big Ball Rasengan, or or mini FRS destroying the armor for more attacks.
Don't the Susanoo arms play any role? Or did you think it was just for show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
2.) The direction change was a misinterpretation of panels. Although your argument about Pa's wind release being unable to alter the course of the arrow is pretty weak. I already mentioned SM precog. enhancing Pa's reflexes and it doesn't take a genius to know that any sort of resistance changes the path of a projectile. Pa is already an extremely small target, blowing a powerful gust of wind at an arrow could easily change it's direction and even if you want to argue that point you just solved the problem you presented by saying Pa could change his own direction with the wind, there you go, he uses his wind stream to propel himself upwards....two solutions take your pick. And Pa jumps even higher than Naruto given that he is a frog and has used Sage Mode for a longer period of time. Long after Naruto reached the apex of his jump Pa was still rising so the momentum argument doesn't really work.
Sage mode or not-Pa cannot change directions in mid-air without resorting to some technique.
And I already said why using one was impractical. I don't want to repeat all that I said, so read that post again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
But since you want to keep attacking that scenario here's another one that works just as well. Sasuke takes to his hawk to get a better view of the battlefield. Ma uses Dust Cloud. Sasuke is gliding over the cloud thinking of a plan for attack and Ma uses her fast tongue to surprise the unsuspecting bird and Sasuke and grabs the hawk's talon and slams it into the ground.
I could use multiple scenarios here. You're never going to be able to argue that Sasuke's hawk helps him flee from the toads while he still remains in the battle. Either the hawk takes him away completely or it keeps him within range of their attacks.
It's because Ma uses Dust cloud that Sasuke uses hawk to to fly...

Anyway, Sasuke Susanoo Bow & Arrow probably has range greater than 100m~320 ft
To avoid an ambush, Sasuke will utilize it to its maximum range
Ma & Pa can jump up to 200 ft and have tongues 50 ft long
So their effective attack range is ~250 ft
Ma doesn't even get to lick the hawk's feathers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
4.) One more time...Sasuke's sharingan does NOT let him know whether or not FRS can be thrown. Yes, Sasuke might be able to predict by Naruto's arms that he is about to throw it but that gives him half a second of reaction time at most. That's not good enough from close range and it's barely enough from medium range as we saw from Sasuke barely dodging A's elbow. Oh and I forgot to mention that Sasuke doesn't know that FRS expands.

There's still the problem of an RM clone catching it after Sasuke's dodged and throwing it right into his back point blank, like Naruto did against Third Raikage. Unless you want to be ridiculous and say that while dodging FRS Sasuke is able to monitor the actions of clones that move faster than he can see, yes a clone will be able to get into his blind spot to catch it and throw it again. Hell if anything the one who threw the FRS could get there. And Sasuke wouldn't even be expecting that in the first place.
And this is all under the generous assumption that Naruto only uses one FRS at a time to keep the fight close. In theory Naruto clones could use 5 or 10 and bounce them all over the battlefield with his chakra arms, Sasuke's only hope would be to magically develop the Rinnegan so he can use Deva Path.
Even Nagato didn't knew FRS expanded, yet the remaining Paths escaped.

Naruto doesn't move at speed of light!! Even Tsunade saw Naruto as a yellow flash.
Sasuke's sharingan vision is multiple times better than that of a normal eye.
The problem isn't that he will not be able to see Naruto moving, but rather he may not be fast enough to react.

And what about the alternate scenario that I suggested?
Best part is it can even happen at the start of the fight.
Naruto goes RM instantly(since SM takes time), makes clones to surround Sasuke and immediately fires an FRS straight at Sasuke, while the Clones are moving in for attack from sides.
Sasuke has already brought up his Susanoo and launches a Amaterasu shuriken at Naruto's FRS and voila!
It's very likely there will be a big explosion and Amaterasu will increase in amount and spread all over the place.
Sasuke now doesn't even have to spam Amaterasu to slow Naruto down.
A few Kage level RM Naruto clones will also get caught. In an explosion of such magnitude their speed won't help them escape.
But Sasuke takes zero damage because of his Susano and his ability to control amaterasu.

Before you tell me that Sasuke has no intel to predict something like this may happen, let me tell you something.
It has nothing to do with Sasuke having no intel about FRS.
Intercepting enemy projectiles(shuriken, kunai) with that of your own has been the most basic tactic we saw first in the manga.
Call Sasuke lucky if you want, but this is certainly a possibility that can tilt the fight in Sasuke's favour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
5.) He will not only lose because he runs out of chakra. He will lose because 15+ Kage level opponents completely overwhelmed him in battle and he had no idea what half of their abilities were before he entered the fight.
Sasuke had no intel about Deidara and Danzo yet he managed to defeat them.
That he himself came close to death as well, doesn't change this fact.
Point is, Sasuke has already shown aptitude to analyse his opponents abilities and come up with ways to counter them, planning ahead of his opponents moves to set up a trap.

EDIT:
I would appreciate if you split down the post when quoting, like I do.
That way it's less likely to miss some points and I would know exactly which point your are referring to...
+ it looks better


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora View Post
Kenshin, Sasuke's eyes still bleed when Casting ammy. Just skimmed through and wanted to point that out
But they no longer stress him as they did before when he used Amaterasu!
Remember Sasuke closing his eyes with his hands due to the pain?
They may bleed but it's no longer painful. And I'm sure Sasuke won't die from such minor blood-loss, not when there are other more efficient ways of getting killed
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by K3nsh!n View Post
Don't the Susanoo arms play any role? Or did you think it was just for show?
Nope not really, they swing too slowly to do anything, and the most they can grab is two clones and even if they did I don't think they'd be strong enough to crush them. We saw Naruto use his chakra arms in all directions to avoid being crushed earlier.

Quote:
Sage mode or not-Pa cannot change directions in mid-air without resorting to some technique.
And I already said why using one was impractical. I don't want to repeat all that I said, so read that post again.


It's because Ma uses Dust cloud that Sasuke uses hawk to to fly...

Anyway, Sasuke Susanoo Bow & Arrow probably has range greater than 100m~320 ft
To avoid an ambush, Sasuke will utilize it to its maximum range
Ma & Pa can jump up to 200 ft and have tongues 50 ft long
So their effective attack range is ~250 ft
Ma doesn't even get to lick the hawk's feathers...
Ok if you want to have Sasuke hovering out of both his and Naruto, Ma, and Pa's practical attack range then there's no point in debating this. The point of Sasuke using the hawk summon is to get an aerial view of the battlefield by hovering over it, but he doesn't stay very far away. If you want him floating that far away from the battlefield then forget Ma and Pa attacking. They can just sit there charging up for frog song while Sasuke fires arrows from inefficient ranges and SM Naruto and the RM Narutos dodge easily. Frog Song is not limited by range and Sasuke has no counter for it without Itachi being there to help him. Not that he'd be able to figure out what they were doing before it happened anyway. Oh and ftr the databook says Ma and Pa's tongues can be used at all ranges but I was just assuming 50ft. for the sake of debate

Quote:
Even Nagato didn't knew FRS expanded, yet the remaining Paths escaped.

Naruto doesn't move at speed of light!! Even Tsunade saw Naruto as a yellow flash.
Sasuke's sharingan vision is multiple times better than that of a normal eye.
The problem isn't that he will not be able to see Naruto moving, but rather he may not be fast enough to react.

And what about the alternate scenario that I suggested?
Best part is it can even happen at the start of the fight.
Naruto goes RM instantly(since SM takes time), makes clones to surround Sasuke and immediately fires an FRS straight at Sasuke, while the Clones are moving in for attack from sides.
Sasuke has already brought up his Susanoo and launches a Amaterasu shuriken at Naruto's FRS and voila!
It's very likely there will be a big explosion and Amaterasu will increase in amount and spread all over the place.
Sasuke now doesn't even have to spam Amaterasu to slow Naruto down.
A few Kage level RM Naruto clones will also get caught. In an explosion of such magnitude their speed won't help them escape.
But Sasuke takes zero damage because of his Susano and his ability to control amaterasu.

Before you tell me that Sasuke has no intel to predict something like this may happen, let me tell you something.
It has nothing to do with Sasuke having no intel about FRS.
Intercepting enemy projectiles(shuriken, kunai) with that of your own has been the most basic tactic we saw first in the manga.
Call Sasuke lucky if you want, but this is certainly a possibility that can tilt the fight in Sasuke's favour.


Sasuke had no intel about Deidara and Danzo yet he managed to defeat them.
That he himself came close to death as well, doesn't change this fact.
Point is, Sasuke has already shown aptitude to analyse his opponents abilities and come up with ways to counter them, planning ahead of his opponents moves to set up a trap.

EDIT:
I would appreciate if you split down the post when quoting, like I do.
That way it's less likely to miss some points and I would know exactly which point your are referring to...
+ it looks better
Yeah, we could assume it explodes everywhere and covers the battlefield helping your argument, but it's much more likely based on ALL of our on panel encounters with Susano'o that is simply burns through it's target. I know you're idea came from the whole fire>wind thing Yamato warned about but I've explained in many other threads how Amaterasu doesn't have the same qualities as normal fire. It is an ethereal weapon that is similar in form and the "burning" function, but as you know ever well it cannot be put out and it "burns" through other fire too. That is not the definition of fire but more of a mythological weapon like Amaterasu really is. Like I said it is far more probable that instead of expanding and growing like normal fire would, it would simply burn through it.

Deidara and Danzo are currently almost a world below Naruto at the moment and had fewer techniques to cope with. Danzo did lose to MS Sasuke battlewise but practically they tied since Sasuke also received a stab wound that would have most likely killed him if untreated by Karin. EMS Sasuke is far more powerful but the gap between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is certainly not as large as the gap between current Naruto and Danzo.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:09 AM   #49
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Nope not really, they swing too slowly to do anything, and the most they can grab is two clones and even if they did I don't think they'd be strong enough to crush them. We saw Naruto use his chakra arms in all directions to avoid being crushed earlier.
Sasuke doesn't need to crush the clones.
His Susanoo got that Amaterasu sword. It could easily cut through those clones

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Ok if you want to have Sasuke hovering out of both his and Naruto, Ma, and Pa's practical attack range then there's no point in debating this. The point of Sasuke using the hawk summon is to get an aerial view of the battlefield by hovering over it, but he doesn't stay very far away. If you want him floating that far away from the battlefield then forget Ma and Pa attacking. They can just sit there charging up for frog song while Sasuke fires arrows from inefficient ranges and SM Naruto and the RM Narutos dodge easily. Frog Song is not limited by range and Sasuke has no counter for it without Itachi being there to help him. Not that he'd be able to figure out what they were doing before it happened anyway. Oh and ftr the databook says Ma and Pa's tongues can be used at all ranges but I was just assuming 50ft. for the sake of debate
I thought DataBook wasn't cannon?!

Either way, all ranges just means that the attack can be used for both short/medium and long distance target.
It only takes common sense to figure out that Ma and Pa's tongue cannot possibly extend to infinity. Their tongue is coiled inside their mouths and therefore its size is limited by their physique. IMO, even 50 feet is a bit long. Ma and Pa should choke considering that volume of flesh that needs to be kept coiled within their mouths/throats.

Dunno why, but you seem to think that 100m is too long for Sasuke to make a good shot. The arrows already got a lot of momentum(should be clear from their speed) and since he will be shooting downwards from some height, gravitational acceleration adds more to it.

And this is all assuming Naruto summons the Toads. Naruto isn't even using them against Tobi, who with his Rinnegan and 7 Bijuus is a much bigger threat than Sasuke. Had he summoned them at the start of the fight he would have had a much better chance at defeating Tobi. And now it looks like he doesn't even have much chakra left to perform a high level summon.
He is just being an overconfident brat. So unless he thinks of the toads as being useful against Tobi, there is no reason to assume he will think of using them against Sasuke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Yeah, we could assume it explodes everywhere and covers the battlefield helping your argument, but it's much more likely based on ALL of our on panel encounters with Susano'o that is simply burns through it's target. I know you're idea came from the whole fire>wind thing Yamato warned about but I've explained in many other threads how Amaterasu doesn't have the same qualities as normal fire. It is an ethereal weapon that is similar in form and the "burning" function, but as you know ever well it cannot be put out and it "burns" through other fire too. That is not the definition of fire but more of a mythological weapon like Amaterasu really is. Like I said it is far more probable that instead of expanding and growing like normal fire would, it would simply burn through it.
Jiraya used a fire sealing technique to seal Itachi's Amaterasu...
It shouldn't have worked if Amaterasu didn't have fire-element in it.

It's more likely Sasuke summons Amaterasu flames from some unknown dimension.
This explains his eye bleeding even though he now has the EMS-since you require blood for summoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Deidara and Danzo are currently almost a world below Naruto at the moment and had fewer techniques to cope with. Danzo did lose to MS Sasuke battlewise but practically they tied since Sasuke also received a stab wound that would have most likely killed him if untreated by Karin. EMS Sasuke is far more powerful but the gap between MS Sasuke and EMS Sasuke is certainly not as large as the gap between current Naruto and Danzo.
When did I compare Naruto with Deidara/Danzo?
I only wanted to point out Sasuke already fought opponents without knowing their abilities yet managed to analyse them in the heat of battle, and came up with strategies to counter them.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

Quote:
It's more likely Sasuke summons Amaterasu flames from some unknown dimension.
This explains his eye bleeding even though he now has the EMS-since you require blood for summoning.
It's a Fire Release jutsu. He doesn't summon it. That's why Jiraiya could seal it. It was a Fire Release jutsu. Summonings require a seal. Or at least a seal forms. That's like saying any jutsu that has recoil on the user is a summoning since blood comes out EMS was never stated to relieve the pain of the Justus used. Has Itachi ever shown pain from using MS? IIRC he hasn't.


Anyway so what stops Naruto from blitzing the hell out of Sasuke before Susano'o even becomes an option? And even if he does get it up, he has loads of rasengan variants that would bust it open. And then a tailed beast bomb.

He could even have chakra arms go under ground like he did in the VotE. He's seen Gaara do it, he'll do it too.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora View Post
It's a Fire Release jutsu. He doesn't summon it. That's why Jiraiya could seal it. It was a Fire Release jutsu.
Didn't you read the above two lines? That's what I am also saying...
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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora View Post
Summonings require a seal. Or at least a seal forms. That's like saying any jutsu that has recoil on the user is a summoning since blood comes out
Since it is a Dojutsu technique it doesn't require seals.
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EMS was never stated to relieve the pain of the Justus used. Has Itachi ever shown pain from using MS? IIRC he hasn't
lol!
You expect someone like Itachi to show his pain like Sasuke?
Itachi has rarely shown any emotion on his face. Even if someone had cut off his arm while alive, I doubt he would so much as flinch due to pain.
Itachi probably has the highest degree of self-control among all the characters.
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Anyway so what stops Naruto from blitzing the hell out of Sasuke before Susano'o even becomes an option? And even if he does get it up, he has loads of rasengan variants that would bust it open. And then a tailed beast bomb.
Why do people keep thinking Naruto is going to be in his "Yellow Flash" speed all time?
We have only seen Naruto use it on two occasions. While dodging A's punch and and deflecting Bijuu balls. Because that is his max speed, more like a 100m dash and is not practical in battles like A's body-flicker.
Naruto cannot always use that Yellow Flash speed or he would have used it all the time.
His normal RM speed though fast is nowhere close to that Yellow Flash.
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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Sora View Post
He could even have chakra arms go under ground like he did in the VotE. He's seen Gaara do it, he'll do it too.
If he is having his chakra arms go under the ground-means he cannot move. Easy target.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:36 AM   #52
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

Sigh. Ok since you refuse to be reasonable and you think the clones are going to bump into each other or restrict each other's movements which has never happened before, or that Sasuke is going to be able to keep up with all those high speed clones via Amaterasu, let's try another method.

Naruto summones 15 RM Clones... 14 of them and the original retreat. Sasuke fights for a long time and manages to take out one clone, Naruto then sends another, and another, and another gauntlet style. How long would you say Sasuke lasts? I just want to see how biased you are here, because if you say anything more than 5 (which is REALLY stretching it) then I won't be able to take your arguments seriously anymore. Considering just one could hold back Nagato, Itachi, Third Raikage, Muu, and even Madara.

And I'm not one to argue for speed blitzing all the time because Naruto has been hit recently and we know that even though his pure speed is greater than A's his reaction time is probably significantly slower than both A and Bee, but your whole Naruto gets hit with Amaterasu argument is just really weak.

I mean first you were trying to say that Sasuke just lights the battlefield on fire while Naruto and his clones just stand there, then you tried saying he uses the tomoe Amaterasu on each of the clones and that will slowly restrict their movements and you finally resorted to some weird argument about FRS exploding Amaterasu all over the battlefield for Sasuke. Honestly the only thing keeping you alive right now is an argument where Sasuke spams Amaterasu or gets on his hawk and flies away while trying to hit Naruto with Susano'o arrows which is just not going to happen. By the time Sasuke even starts using Amaterasu he will be surrounded by clones, and there's just no way he's hitting RM Naruto with one of those arrows from far away, it's even a worse idea because it just makes him an open target for FRS from the clones down below and if you say the hawk can dodge 3+ FRSs once again I will say you're too biased to be debating this subject.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:06 AM   #53
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

I like to think plot nerfing was holding RM Naruto back not to mention.

RM Naruto had used up so many clones splitting his power so that could explain why he was not up to full extent.

In the Nagato and Itachi clash, Naruto was more interested in talking rather than fighting for example.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:34 PM   #54
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by JLI2infinity View Post
Sigh. Ok since you refuse to be reasonable and you think the clones are going to bump into each other or restrict each other's movements which has never happened before, or that Sasuke is going to be able to keep up with all those high speed clones via Amaterasu, let's try another method.
I think I gave pretty reasonable explanation. Unless Naruto and his clones can become intangible like Tobi I don't see how they cannot restrict each other movements if they are large in numbers.
Quote:
Naruto summones 15 RM Clones... 14 of them and the original retreat. Sasuke fights for a long time and manages to take out one clone, Naruto then sends another, and another, and another gauntlet style. How long would you say Sasuke lasts? I just want to see how biased you are here, because if you say anything more than 5 (which is REALLY stretching it) then I won't be able to take your arguments seriously anymore. Considering just one could hold back Nagato, Itachi, Third Raikage, Muu, and even Madara.
  • Nagato,Itachi
    The one fighting them was the "real" Naruto. And he wasn't even alone! Bee- another Jinchuriki-was with him.
    Nagato wasn't at his full strength in the beginning, Itachi wasn't even using his MS. Then Itachi switched to Naruto's side(Kotoakatsukami) and they 3 defeated a full-powered Nagato. The "real" Naruto would have got soul-sucked long ago without Itachi's help.
  • Muu
    I guess Gaara lending timely help so that Naruto clone could catch Muu(original) off-guard, doesn't count, eh?
  • Third Raikage
    Forgot all those Sand Ninja who risked their lives just so Naruto clone could have a chat with Hachibi for "intel" and then charge up his SM?
    Without their help he wouldn't even last a moment longer seeing how his FRS was completely useless against that Third Raikage
  • Madara
    What about all those allied army ninjas sacrificing their lives?
    Ooniki, Gaara and others trying their hardest just so Naruto clone could go SM and then get a good shot at Madara with his FRS-does it mean nothing?
    Forget stopping Madara's Wood release, that Naruto clone wouldn't even have lasted so long to see Madara had he not been supported by the allied army.
Tch...tch..! Here you are crediting feats achieved by combined efforts solely to Naruto clones.
And you call me biased?!!

To think Sasuke won't last against 5 of these so called Kage level clones in 1-on-1 fight, you are not only overrating Naruto's RM clones but also underrating Sasuke at the same time!!
Quote:
And I'm not one to argue for speed blitzing all the time because Naruto has been hit recently and we know that even though his pure speed is greater than A's his reaction time is probably significantly slower than both A and Bee, but your whole Naruto gets hit with Amaterasu argument is just really weak.
Here you are contradicting yourself a big time!!
You admit Naruto having slower reaction than that of A, even less than that of Bee's, yet say my Amaterasu argument is weak.
Naruto will be hit by Amaterasu cast from the eye before he even attempts his yellow flash move.

Naruto's reaction was slow as a snail's even though Nagato warned him of Itachi's Amaterasu attack. He jumped after seeing the black flames before him and thought Itachi missed...lol
He was lucky Itachi wasn't aiming for him!
Quote:
I mean first you were trying to say that Sasuke just lights the battlefield on fire while Naruto and his clones just stand there, then you tried saying he uses the tomoe Amaterasu on each of the clones and that will slowly restrict their movements
I never said Naruto clones would clones sit still.
Yes it would take some time to set it up. It's just that Sasuke is clever enough to trap his opponent into a trap while at the same time dodging/countering the attacks.

When I said "spamming amaterasu" you should have realized it didn't have to just be "creating a circle" around oneself and is not limited to just shooting from the EMS. You didn't consider that Sasuke could even cast in on the grounds as well as use his Amaterasu weapons to serve the purpose.
Don't blame me for your lack of imagination.
Quote:
and you finally resorted to some weird argument about FRS exploding Amaterasu all over the battlefield for Sasuke.
This and that are two different scenarios. Go read the posts again if you are so confused.
And calling it "weird" just because you have nothing to prove it wrong doesn't help your argument
Quote:
Honestly the only thing keeping you alive right now is an argument where Sasuke spams Amaterasu or gets on his hawk and flies away while trying to hit Naruto with Susano'o arrows which is just not going to happen. By the time Sasuke even starts using Amaterasu he will be surrounded by clones, and there's just no way he's hitting RM Naruto with one of those arrows from far away, it's even a worse idea because it just makes him an open target for FRS from the clones down below and if you say the hawk can dodge 3+ FRSs once again I will say you're too biased to be debating this subject.
Why would Sasuke need to fly away from the RM clones when he can handle them with his Susanoo? His Susanoo Amaterasu sword can take care of them.
Not to mention he can always resort to his other fire style jutsus, even while using Susanoo.
You think an RM clone would dodge an Susanoo arrow with ease? Naruto may be faster but he hasn't got that precognition he gets from SM...
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:45 PM   #55
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

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Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 View Post
I like to think plot nerfing was holding RM Naruto back not to mention.
Could say the same for Sasuke's lack of performance against Kabuto.
He was on the defensive, since Itachi said they cannot kill Kabuto.
Quote:
RM Naruto had used up so many clones splitting his power so that could explain why he was not up to full extent.
Doesn't this mean that Naruto can only use his Yellow Flash speed only when he is not using his clones?
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In the Nagato and Itachi clash, Naruto was more interested in talking rather than fighting for example.
That's not an excuse for getting caught and almost having his soul sucked. Even if he was interested in talking he shouldn't have let his guard down.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:36 AM   #56
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

Do you guys/girls think that ammy will even hurt a RM clone fast enough?
In my opinion, considering its slow burning speed I can easily see the chakra shroud around the naruto clones protecting them for a good while before they pop.
Furthermore this is Bijuu Mode Naruto. The naruto that fights inside a kyuubi made out of chakra. Its kinda like Naruto's own version of Susanoo. Even if say ammy hit Kuruma, I doubt it would hurt Naruto, how would it?
Furthermore I don't see Susanoo countering a biju bomb. Lets say that it does fire an arrow to disrupt the making of the bb, Naruto can multitask. Considering one of his clones could make a rasenshurken, I would imagine that all other 11 of his clones aswell. So basically I imagine Naruto making his 11 RM clones and then forming a circle and rasenshurken the hell out of Sasuke. Even with his bird summons, I don't see them getting out of 12 rasenshurikens. Another scenario is Naruto going in BM and then I don't even think ammy would do anything. In this mode Naruto has been shown to throw biju around, and use mountain busting+ feats. In this scenario I imagine naruto summoning a sage mode clone inside Kuruma to go and fight Sasuke. Sage mode clone rushes Sasuke, and acts as decoy. ( Naruto has used way more elaborate strategies before) In this scenario I can imagine Sasuke using ammy and possibly failing because of chakra shroud around the real Naruto. However if Sasuke uses Ammy on sage mode Naruto then the original Naruto would have had time to send a biju bomb his way. Point being, that if naruto is in BM then he could probably win by using a biju bomb. Problem is that Sasuke could possible disrupt the attack, however all Naruto has to do is send in a clone to attack Sasuke and distract. Furthermore if Sasuke uses susanoo to try and counter BM then Naruto uses frog song to genjustu sasuke and then before Sasuke breaks out he send a biju bomb. If Sasuke doesnot use susanoo then their is no way for him to block a biju bomb and he losses aswell.

That is at this point in time, however I firmly believe that sasuke will get his brothers mirror which will be able to block a biju bomb. And I believe that Sasuke will get the ability to slow time, in order to keep up with Naruto's speed.
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:50 AM   #57
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

I need to make some guidelines before I continue with this post.

1. First, please only use statements that can be backed purely by empirical proof. Do not speculate on what something probably is if it has never been tested or observed in some way in the canon manga. For example, saying that Bijuu mode would protect Naruto seems like a logical conclusion, but it is not supported in any way, shape, or form in the canon manga. So far, whenever Naruto has been hit, he has taken fairly normal damage. This can be seen in his fights against the tailed beasts and during the time he took a punch from the Raikage. Conjecture such as this simply veers people away from the logical facts and merely fuels room for the illogical support for a character. It is like fertilizer for fanboys.

2. My stance on this debate is that it should be a fairly even battle. This is based on two reasons: From the objective observations of the manga, I see no reason why their battle would be drastically uneven, and we already know that Kishimoto is going to make them equal by the end of the manga. In this discussion, however, we will be solely focused on the former, which states that there is no drastic difference in Naruto's and Sasuke's strengths.

3. I would like to make it clear to all people reading this that there has been no real test of either Naruto's Bijuu mode ability or Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Both have been used, but not in extensive and difficult battles. Neither of them have been pushed to the limits of their capabilities. Naruto has never been strained while fighting with Bijuu mode (with the exception of the time when he uses it to protect everyone), and Sasuke has never had a fight with Eternal Mangekyo Sharignan where he used it to its limits because during his fight with Kabuto he was not aiming to kill him. His goal while fighting with Kabuto was to end Edo Tensei, and that would not have been accomplished if Kabuto was killed. Once again, I would like to remind people to refrain from pointless conjecture not supported by empirical and canonical information. Because of the statements above, we cannot gauge either Naruto's or Sasuke's full potential with the information that we have been given from the manga. This is also supported by the fact that Kishimoto would not want to reveal all of Naruto's and Sasuke's full potential before the end of the Manga (end meaning very close to the very end).

Now, with those guidelines, I will begin.

From the manga we know that Naruto has several key advantages that should be noted, but not overplayed excessively. We know that Naruto has a great deal of speed. This is a fact, given that he is capable of dodging the Raikage. Yet, at the same time, we know that he is not infinitely faster than the Raikage because the Raikage was able to hit Naruto several times while he was in Bijuu mode. Naruto's speed will still prove to be an important asset during a battle with Sasuke.

Secondly, Naruto has a great deal of offensive attacks. His most notable offensive attacks would be the Rasen Shuriken and the Bijuu Dama. Both attacks are long range, quick, and take a fairly short amount of time to prepare. There is still, however, some preparation time. These attacks do not occur instantaneously, and there is delay. From the anime, it can be estimated that it takes anywhere from one to five seconds to prepare these attacks (five seconds is probably an overestimate). This delay will be an important factor.

Naruto also has Sage mode. This offers offensive power and a greater awareness to his surroundings. He is capable of sensing attacks, and his strength is increased significantly. It is, however, questionable as to whether or not Naruto could handle Sage mode with Bijuu mode. During Naruto's fight with Pain, Naruto could only control three clones in sage mode, and he could not have trained his sage mode too extensively as he almost immediately began working on Bijuu mode after his fight with Pain. It is difficult to say whether or not this could be used as an asset against a fight with Sasuke. If Naruto is incapable of utilizing both Sage mode and Bijuu mode, Naruto would most likely choose Bijuu mode because of how much stronger it is.

Yet at the same time, the argument could be made that Ma and Pa could fuse with Naruto now that he has a positive relationship with Kurama, howver, this too is debatable and is not supported by any observations in the manga or anime. For all we know, the Chakra may still interfere with Kurama. Having three people connected to a chakra pool may be too difficult. The possibilities are endless in this debate, and there is far too little evidence to support any of these hypotheses, so I would not include this in the debate.

Yet, despite Naruto's incredible speed and strength, Naruto still has disadvantages when it comes to this battle.

To start, we should look at Naruto's overall intelligence. Naruto has rarely thought of complex plans in order to win his battles. Most of his battles have been won by sheer determination and strength. This can be seen by the fact that he continually spammed shadow clones and rasengans before he learned Sage mode and Bijuu mode. His mentality was that of someone suffering from insanity. He did the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Yet, time after time, he would fail with his shadow clone spams and frontal attacks with rasengans. This was not always the case, but it was the case for a majority of his battles. Naruto lacks analytical skills, but this is balanced by his determination.

Naruto and Kurama's link is also not permanent. It will be able to last longer the more they use Bijuu mode, but it won't last forever. Bijuu mode requires chakra that Kurama creates by kneading it.

Naruto lacks sufficient defense. Naruto is capable of withstanding blows decently, but he still takes significant damage. He is not invincible. Naruto must rely on his speed to protect him. Yet, at the same time, Naruto is not able to dodge every move. He was hit by the Raikage several times and he was hit during his battle with the Tailed beasts. Naruto is not invincible in any way, shape, or form. He is incredibly fast, and he will be able to dodge almost all attacks, but Naruto can still die. This is important. In my opinion, this idea is lost in the mentality of many Naruto fans.

Naruto's clones do not all have the same strength as the original Naruto. As Kakashi said during Naruto's fight with Zabuza, making shadow clones divides chakra between the clones. The total amount of chakra stays the same. The same was said during the third Hokage's battle with Orochimaru. When the Third made two shadow clones, his power was divided among them. Therefore, Naruto cannot have an infinite number of insanely strong clones. He could, however, have many weaker Bijuu mode clones.

Now for Sasuke's strengths. Sasuke has a great deal of defense. Sasuke describes his Susano'o as the perfect defense to Gaara. It is important to note that up to now, no one has broken through a perfect Susano'o. The Raikage at full force was only able to crack the basic rib cage Susano'o. During the battle between the five kage and Madara, none of the kage were able to even dent Madara's complete Susano'o, let alone his final perfect Susano'o. In many debates, people have been downplaying the defensive capabilities of Susano'o, which contributes to the mentality that Naruto would destroy Sasuke. This is fundamentally untrue. Many have claimed that a Rasen Shuriken would break through Susano'o. However, if we really observe the empirical data, and not idealized and glorified of the Rasen Shuriken, we see that it is nowhere near powerful enough. The Rasen Shuriken failed to take down the Third Raikage, and its full blast size pales in comparison with the full size of a perfect Susano'o. Madara's perfect Susano'o was the size of a mountain, while the blast from a Rasen Shuriken is the size of a hill. If we look at Bijuu Dama, during Naruto's escape with Bee, barriers were able to momentarily hold back the Bijuu Dama. This shows that the Bijuu Dama can be manipulated by physical objects and that it does not explode on contact. This also reveals that the Bijuu Dama is not a wrecking ball of destruction and that it can be stopped by physical means. This includes barriers. We do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that the Susano'o would be able to completely take a direct hit, yet that being said, it does not seem likely that a Bijuu Dama would utterly destroy Susano'o seeing as it had some difficulty with the barriers on Turtle Island. That combined with the fact that a perfect Susano'o has strength comparable to a tailed beast would most likely suggest that Susano'o would be capable of pushing back a Bijuu Dama. This is not definite or confirmed fact however. The main idea that should come from this paragraph though is that nobody has broken through a perfect or a complete Susano'o yet. We have only seen a complete Susano'o from Sasuke, but it would not be a stretch for Sasuke to unlock the final Susano'o. *Note, in this paragraph I used final and perfect susano'o interchangeably.

Sasuke has a reasonable level of offensive power. He is not dominated by Naruto's offensive abilities in any way, shape, or form. Naruto's attacks may seem flashier, but they have been in now way shown to be inherently or significantly stronger than Sasuke's attacks. Sasuke's Susano'o's arrows have done similar damage to Rasen Shuriken when compared. If you look at the collateral damage during Sasuke's fight with Danzo, the overall level of destruction is similar to Rasen Shurikens. Yet, we must remember that Rasen Shuriken is not an all powerful technique, which means that neither are the arrows. Remember, the Rasen Shuriken was unable to defeat the Third Raikage in lightning armor. Amaterasu is a versatile and powerful skill. Sasuke is capable of shaping the Amaterasu into any shape because of his blaze release. In addition to this, Amaterasu burns through everything and cannot be extinguished. And lastly, Amaterasu can be used over large areas, as seen in Sasuke's fight with Itachi. Large areas were burned by Amaterasu, so much that a storm was created from it.

These offensive moves may not compare to the Bijuu Dama, but remember, Naruto does not have the same level of defense that Sasuke has. These attacks will be capable of doing significant damage if they hit Naruto. Remember, Naruto has been hurt while in Bijuu mode, he is not invincible. Naruto may have an advantage offensively, but Sasuke is capable of taking more damage because of his protective Susano'o.

Sasuke also has a wide variety of skills. Sasuke knows far more jutsu thatn Naruto. Sasuke knows many lightning style jutsu including, but not limited to, his Chidori, his extendable lightning blade, and his Senbon made of lightning. Sasuke knows fire-based techniques which can be used for broad-ranged attacks. Sasuke knows how to use a sword proficiently. There are many skills that Sasuke has, and this is far from an extensive list. This, combined with his intelligence and resourcefulness, makes Sasuke highly versatile.

Sasuke also has the Sharingan and its basic abilities! Many people forget that the Sharingan allows the user to observe minute details and to see things at a higher frame rate. This can be seen during Sasuke's battle with Haku. Sasuke was able to see Haku moving between ice panels with his Sharingan, and according to Haku, Haku was moving at near light speed. A similar effect occurred during Naruto and Sasuke's last fight as genin. Sasuke was able to see Naruto's nine-tails movements after he unlocked the third tomoe on his Sharingan. On top of this, the Sharingan allows the user to analyze jutsu and kills. By using the Sharingan, Sasuke was able to copy Lee's taijutsu and his Lotus during the Chunin exams. These fundamental skills are forgotten, yet important, skills that greatly enhance Sasuke's battle performance.

Sasuke also does have a fair amount of analytical skill and technical skill unlike Naruto. This can be seen in many of his battles. Two battles which come to mind are his battles between Deidara and Itachi. During Sasuke's battle with Deidara, Sasuke was able to formulate a hypothesis about Deidara's explosives after he observed that they did not detonate after he pierced them with Senbon made out of lightning. From this, he performed several other tests, whilst thinking ahead, in order to confirm his hypothesis that lightning deactivates Deidara's explosives. Using this information, he was able to win the battle. A similar foresight can be seen in his battle with Itachi. Sasuke used Itachi's own Amaterasu against him. Sasuke purposefully had Itachi use Amaterasu in order to create a storm that he used to make Kirin. This once again, shows Sasuke's foresight and analytical skills. Sasuke's battle with Itachi reveals another thing, Sasuke's technical skills. As Zetsu put it, Sasuke was able to match Itachi's Tsukoyomi even with an inferior sharingan because was more skilled than Itachi.

I believe all of the above is consistent with the empirical evidence provided from the manga and anime. If there is some part that is not covered, then forgive me. I believe, for the most part, this is consistent. All of the above is testable and observable, unlike such claims saying Pa's wind could blow Sasuke's Susano'o arrow off course. Empirical evidence should always be the basis for logical and clear discussions. Otherwise, we are plunged into pointless conjecture and speculation that veers people far away from the objective truth.
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:12 AM   #58
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

This is stupid... Naruto will TBB Sasuke. Explain how he survives. Sasunoo can not handle that.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:46 AM   #59
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

I don't know how this got to three pages.

Naruto blitzes Sasuke. /Thread. Anything else is overkill.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:47 AM   #60
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Default Re: Bijuu Mode Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke

^Pretty much.
So far, more feats of annihilation.
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