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View Poll Results: Who would win?
Samurai 5 71.43%
Centurion 2 28.57%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-01-2013, 04:21 AM   #41
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
-Centurions actually do more training: how can you prove this,
-you do realize that Hadrians wall was one..frontier on one tiny island.:very true but this was part of many walls that was built all over Europe, a point that is considered first step to the collapse of the Roman empire
-the Katana is a horrible weapon and it sucks: national geographic says the reverse, I go with NG
-Japanese metallurgy epic fails: the Japanese sword are considered medieval nanotechnology
-like hell..they completely annihilated Baghdad.: true
-and it still hasn't recovered: thanks to W
- the main reason why the west rules the world today is because our ancestors were better at murder than everyone else: are proud about this ?
-A Centurion had to be 30 years old, and a proven warrior. The join age into the legion is thought to be around 17 so 13 years of battle and training. A Legionaries training was the duty of the Centurion over him.

-Regardless of how you feel about the Katana you know that a long blade is a hindrance in a close fight, and the Centurion knows this to. The Centurion is not going to have a problem taking every advantage away form the Samurai.

-Yes I am absolutely proud of my heritage, from the Romans, to the Franks, to the Vikings, and the British. In all of these, except the Vikings, you see the best soldiers of their times, and the Vikings were some of the greatest warriors ever.

To me the Centurion wins because he is a soldier, not a warrior. A warrior trains to fight the soldier trains to kill. Am not saying the samurai is not a killer. I'm saying that the Centurions is a better killer, because that is what he is trained to do.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

Yes I am absolutely proud of my heritage, from the Romans, to the Franks, to the Vikings, and the British. In all of these, except the Vikings, you see the best soldiers of their times, and the Vikings were some of the greatest warriors ever.
so you have a ( Roman/British/franc/and Scandinavian ) origin !!!!!!!!!!! who are you please ????????????????????????????????????
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:35 AM   #43
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
Yes I am absolutely proud of my heritage, from the Romans, to the Franks, to the Vikings, and the British. In all of these, except the Vikings, you see the best soldiers of their times, and the Vikings were some of the greatest warriors ever.
so you have a ( Roman/British/franc/and Scandinavian ) origin !!!!!!!!!!! who are you please ????????????????????????????????????
I was talking about the western European heritage you twit.
Also my ancestors are Italian, British, German, roots.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:45 AM   #44
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
...umm what?!

their body count was the highest of any war in human history up until world war two..they depopulated entire cities slaughter numerous tens of millions as a matter of foreign policy...simply to make a political point

like hell..they completely annihilated Baghdad..broke the middle easts culture completely and it still hasn't recovered - these people were so brutal it took the god damn nazi's to out shine them..holy crap

now if you mean vikings that's equally false everyone in eruope routinely engaged in the slaughtering of innocent people,. the main reason why the west rules the world today is because our ancestors were better at murder than everyone else
I don't like it when people think of the Mongols as some kind of berserking horde that rapes, plunders and pillages without any organization whatsoever. They were very disciplined and their attacks against civilians were not raids, but more of genocides. But were they innocent? Many had chosen their fate on their own, and many people actually preferred Mongol rule over their own people.

Also, Nazi Germany did not "out shine" the Mongols in terms of killing:

Casualties of the Holocaust: 6,000,000
Allied casualties of World War II: 16,000,000 (many were caused by other Axis powers)
Allied civilian casualties of World War II: 45,000,000 (many were caused by other Axis powers)

Casualties of the Mongol invasion: 30,000,000 to 60,000,000+ (depending on sources)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekuto View Post
I was talking about the western European heritage you twit.
Also my ancestors are Italian, British, German, roots.
Calling the Vikings western Europeans is an insult to the Nordic heritage.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:50 AM   #45
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

Calling the Vikings western Europeans is an insult to the Nordic heritage.

I did so because of their effect on the western world, and a great deal of vikings came to settle and integrate into western society, whether you like it or not, a portion of the Vikings became western heritage.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:53 AM   #46
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

ok we are talking about Samuri vs. Centurion please dont get out of the subject
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

Katanas were long and thin so compared to other kind of swords they're very weak as they would commonly break if struck against something very sturdy. Also. While the forging of japanese steel was decent for its era of inception the shape of a katana absolutely counteracts any strengthes it would have otherwise. Pretty much its as they say "short and wide is better than long and thin when it comes to sword play, which is what makes weapons like the the claymore and other long broad swords superior to the katana
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

European armor and weapons are superior to Japanese. That's a fact.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:03 AM   #49
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

As an indevidual samurai, the Roman strentgh came as military tactics rather than individual strentgh although as a whole they were rediculusly strong in a one on one battle of the structure they are probably at their weakest.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:11 AM   #50
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by Souret View Post
As an indevidual samurai, the Roman strentgh came as military tactics rather than individual strentgh although as a whole they were rediculusly strong in a one on one battle of the structure they are probably at their weakest.
I'm going to say that too, by himself, the Centurion is at his weakest, but I don't think it matters. Centurions were the premiere soldiers of the empire and typically fought in the front as an example to the others, they were the best of Rome. Also a legionaries training was mostly one on one sparring with practice shields and swords that weighed more than the standard equipment, meaning they could fight one on one very intensely for a very long time.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:39 AM   #51
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

I think the armor is a huge factor here considering you're taking two highly skilled opponents together.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

Talking armour I don't know much about the armour for the samurai but I have tried the Roman arm and it si very restricting and quite heavy. It may protect the body but it has some target points alond the back and is often hel on by leather. The helmets actually restrict your vision which can make 1 on 1 combat more difficult especially when predicting movements. She sheild is of course a large advantage since it makes his defence like ten times stronger.

Also you can't forget that the Japanese hand to hand combat style ignoring weapons was far stronger else you wouldn't still have people practicing jui jitsu as much as we do.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:55 AM   #53
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

Japanese armor is supposed to be quite durable and much less restricting than the Centurian, but can it take a stab from the centurian's sword? I am not sure.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #54
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao View Post
I don't like it when people think of the Mongols as some kind of berserking horde that rapes, plunders and pillages without any organization whatsoever. They were very disciplined and their attacks against civilians were not raids, but more of genocides. But were they innocent? Many had chosen their fate on their own, and many people actually preferred Mongol rule over their own people.
while I have spent many pages in many threads on many forums arguing that the Mongols essentially invented modern warfare (as in the last seventy years to a hundred and seventy of it) over a thousand years before the second world war/Crimean war.. claiming the Mongols never murdered innocent people is going to make you look like a bigger idiot then you already do to a lot of people

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Also, Nazi Germany did not "out shine" the Mongols in terms of killing:
between sixty and a hundred million people were killed at the end of ww2


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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
-how can you prove this,
a basic understanding of military history will tell you these guys were better trained

it's a simple matter of time management a Samurai wasn't just a warrior, like a Knight he was an administrator a noble, an accountant, a land owner (unless he was a broke ass samurai and even then they were expected to maintain a certain decorum )and everything else

A Centurion was a soldier drilled to be a soldier, who then learned command and tactics but never strayed from warfare..unless he was of a higher class I highly doubt he knew how to read beyond the standard education Roman soldiers got

he spent far more time in actual combat and learning actual warfare then a Samurai who could be asked to perform Sepuku if they botched a god damn tea ceremony

simply put..Samurai weren't all about fighting all the time, but Roman soldiers were, they were paid to be a national military just like a modern one..they may have received a rudimentary education in the legion (in the nice ones any way) but that had more to do with helping them read and obey commands..then anything else


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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
]
very true but this was part of many walls that was built all over Europe, a point that is considered first step to the collapse of the Roman empire
and the downfall of the era of the Samurai came when a British dreadnaught casually leveled a coastal city and laughed at the idiots charging repeating rifles with armor and swords and arrows

or if you wanna be even meaner the day Commodore Perry set foot in Tokyo bay with two huge African American soldiers as back up carrying Winchesters that did it

which is more pathetic if we're gonna focus on the worse?

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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
: national geographic says the reverse, I go with NG
and Nat Geo had Navy seals take a dive to Ninja in one episode because they feared losing viewers due to offended Weeaboos

they've aired documentaries claiming the Egyptians conquered Brazil thousands of years ago right along side Discovery channel

you believe everything you see on tv without informing yourself externally that just makes you less intelligent for your trouble

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the Japanese sword are considered medieval nanotechnology
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

okay listen kid because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about- the insane folding technique developed by the Japanese that was heralded as lightyears ahead of the west..was to cope with the fact that Japanese metal is so horrible that it would be impossible to create anything but really bad blunt practice swords out of it if they did anything else

Katanas were incredibly expensive because of how much time blacksmiths had to invest into them..a Japanese metalsmith could make a hundred spear tips or a thousand arrow heads for the cost of one Katana in terms of resources and time

if you attempted to use Japanese metallurgy (the alledged nano tech which you using that is term is hilariously retarded : only spread out the flaws in the steel distributing them equally so your sword didn't shatter like glass on the first try) on Western steel it would create absolutely fail swords that would break apart easily because Western steel and Western Steel smithing was absolutely superior to what the Japanese had

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are proud about this ?
considering how effed up Asia is? maybe..

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and Nobody else was different during the Ancient Era in that regard. But to admit, I never heard of the pedophilia in Sparta, (I always here the Athenians doing that, thank you for teaching me something.) It as a time of progress. There is no arguing about the Viking's might in battle and how smart they were with Troop management, but I never met someone who thought the Viking's were stupid.
The Athenians did it in the middle class and upper class young boys would boink their bosses at work or at academies for access to their friends - it was a predatory relationship that was culturally encouraged..but it was predatory in the sense that these kids were outright using their seniors (this was also encouraged because they said it built good politicians)

the Spartans used child rape as a means to break their people down make them obedient spartan fanatic soldiers to help the brain washing the obsessive love of the polis, the state

there's a big difference..not saying what the Athenians did was morally right or anything just that its a lot more complicated and both sides benefited from it.;..it was still effed up and morally repulsive but what the Spartans did was slightly more evil because it was rape as a means to condition behavior and thats one of the worse forms of abuse


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Your coming off as a weeaboo bro, how does the Katana defeat the Turtle?
the testugo formation? they can't- hell the Chinese used to hire Roman mercenaries because that formation was such a to deal with


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Originally Posted by AeoKyn View Post
Japanese armor is supposed to be quite durable and much less restricting than the Centurian, but can it take a stab from the centurian's sword? I am not sure.
it's not more durable, it's about the same if not slightly inferior and Centurion armor is surprisingly flexible

people always talk about how inflexible European armor is..there are youtube videos of people doing back flips and cartwheels in full Knights armor and break dancing in Roman armor it's pretty hilarious actually

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Originally Posted by Mekuto View Post
I'm going to say that too, by himself, the Centurion is at his weakest,
at his weakest but with possibly better equipment and better training

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Originally Posted by Maruko View Post
European armor and weapons are superior to Japanese. That's a fact.
what my buddy here says
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #55
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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"Katanas, of the era when katanas were still the sort of thing you used to kill people with on a regular basis if you owned one (as opposed to using one in the occasional mad charge while the rest of your unit was busy getting shot by Americans), were almost universally made of inferior steel to the sorts of steel that was being used to make weapons and armour in Europe.

This was due to the relatively low-tech, low-temperature, very messy and inefficient and, quite frankly crap "traditional" method that the Japanese had utterly failed to progress further than: Being a thoroughly regimented and rigidly structured society does have its advantages, but rapid technological progress is not generally one of them. Well, not until Those In Authority decide it's a good idea, and for hundreds of years in Japan, they didn't. A peasant with a low-technology naginata is much less likely to kill a nobleman than a peasant with a high-technology musket, after all.

The direct upshot of this is that even lower-quality Euroipean steel was similar or better quality than even high-quality Japanese steel. European steel was already being mass-produced by this time, in charcoal-dust powered blast furnaces that burned hotter than anything the Japanese had dreamt of in their wildest nightmares.

The folding method that was used to make good katana blades (and which a lot of katana fanboys yap on about endlessly like it was the Second Coming of the Sliced Loaf and somehow magically made katanas harder and tougher than Dorchester) would have had no relevance to blades made with the higher-quality European steel, because in reality it didn't actually make the blade any stronger: Modern materials science tells us that what it actually did was to spread the flaws in the low-quality steel (of which there were a great many) almost perfectly evenly across the blade.

With high-quality steel this process would have been pointless at best: At worst, it could have seriously weakened the blade. As it was, spreading the flaws out in this way meant that no part of the blade was any stronger than any other, or- much more important from the perspective of resistance to shear stress- any weaker. A blade made from unfolded low-quality steel would have parts that were significantly tougher than a folded-steel katana blade: But it would have parts that were also much much weaker, and a sword blade under shear stress, much like a chain under tension, is only as strong as the weakest of its parts. For high-carbon, low-purity Japanese steel, then, there was only ever one way to make a decent blade.

The problem with this, of course, is that skilled labour like swordsmithing takes time and effort to learn, and a swordsmith's time and effort are both urgently needed to supply the army with other things like spearheads, arrowheads, knives and so on, and there's only so much time before that bastard son of a one-eared goat with herpes daimyo next door sends his army to knock on the door again and would you please fill out this order for three hundred arrowheads as soon as you can I'll pay you triple if it's in by Thursday.

You see the problem? Folding steel again and again and again takes time, and that's time, effort and very skilled labour that's all going to be taken up with a single weapon. He could craft tens, hundreds of spearheads in that time, but no, he's working on this one sword and he's going to do it until he's got it exactly right and then it's going to be God's gift to swordsmanship and no is ever going to have held a damn' thing that'll hold a candle to it honest because that's what the customer ordered. Well, no except half of Europe, but the poor bastard wasn't to know that. Oh, and anyone else willing to pay more for it. The direct upshot of this is that Katanas were, how can I put this delicately, oh wait what am I thinking it's me for frak's sake since when do I put anything delicately, frakking expensive. You think your iPod was pretty expensive, or your computer? Well, unless you're a peasant farmer in Africa, in which case you probably think your cow is pretty expensive and you'd have a frakking aneurism if you knew how much an iPod cost, much less what one is, but let me put it this way: To a Japanese nobleman, a high-quality katana cost a lot more, relatively speaking than your iPod. To the African farmer.

Seriously, you could equip half a bloody army for the same cost.*

Now, think about this. You're a Samurai nobleman in ancient Japan: You've just bought a new sword, for roughly the price your Daimyo's head would command on the black market, assuming he isn't paying some mook to do that to him with broomhandles already because seriously nobles have got to have been some of the most up and debauched creatures ever to have walked bow-legged, and you've got the full set with the lacquered black scabbard with the shrine motif inset that your wife liked when you went to pick one out. You even went the whole hog and had the smith quench the blade in your least favourite servant's chest cavity because the swordsmith says that produces the best quality steel.

You've just finished the proving ceremony (where you cut an inferior blade in half with a single swipe of your new blade) and you're trying to defend your purchase to the local bard-analogue who's being paid by the superlative to grossly exaggerate the awesomeness of both your boss and, by extension, all that he commands- including yourself. First up, what are you going to say to him: "I just got this ceremonial sword for roughly the same price as my house. The wife is going to kill me when I get home and I'm not even sure it was worth it 'cause I never really used the crappy old one I used to have much, all I ever really killed people with was my bow. Seriously, I just had to mortgage three whole farms to buy this thing."? I don't think so.

You're an Alpha Male (and besides that your wife is probably as much of a noble as you: Her feet are probably bound so tight she can barely stand up, much less kick your arse) and in the Daimyo's last battle you slew five hundred enemy warriors with your bare hands, teeth and tremendously hard erect "spear". You've reached the limits of what you can do unarmed, you say, so now it's time to go for the record: So you need a weapon. But not just any weapon. No, you need something amazing. Legendary, even, and worthy of commanding a legendary price tag. That, to the records, to the annals of history, is how your sword is going to be recorded. It just cost half your fortune, so it had damned well better be!

This goes on for a few hundred years' worth of Japan's history, just as the thing with knights and longswords and Robin Hood and the goatbanging peasants and baby-eating nobles and the Crusades and Saladin and so on did over here in Europe. Sure, the swords were better here, the records and surviving examples and some basic metallurgy tell us that, but relatively speaking they weren't nearly as expensive, so the only ones that achieved really legendary status were the ones that were used a lot by the mad murderous psychotic bastards who managed to kill enough dozens of people with them to become "heroes". A lot of them had names by that point, possibly because the crazy man wielding the bastard had killed or lost in combat all of his other friends and nobody else with more than half the sense God gave the bowel movements of a syphilitic dingo would dare to talk to them unless they were at least ten feet away, encased in armour or both.

Thus, the myth of the Katana as the Gods' gift to weaponry was implanted fairly strongly on the traditional Japanese mind: And it endured long after those heathen-bastard gaijin came along and started helping people kill each other (rather dishonourably) with big metal tubes that made loud "bang" noises and spat smoke and lead- not to mention selling armour that offered five times the protection of traditional bamboo lattices at half the price, because it was that heavily engrained. It got transmitted everywhere else in the '80s and '90s as the Japanese, busy exporting consumer electronics like there was no tomorrow (and, to be fair, for a lot of the Japanese economy it turned out there wasn't), started exporting their culture by the metric shitload along with it, replete with katana-as-God mythology and all.

The simple truth is, however, that they just weren't that great. They were much, much better in hand to hand combat than anything else on the feudal Japanese battlefield, once you got close enough to use them, but- and here's the point- there really wasn't much on the feudal Japanese battlefield that WAS all that much cop. For unarmoured, lightly-armoured or bamboo-armoured combat, the Katana is a fantastic weapon. It'll slice a peasant in half at a single stroke, another samurai in two.

But compared to Western blades of a similar era it has a short reach, is at best a little unbalanced, isn't all that much cop against armour and it's bloody difficult to stab anyone with it properly. A Medieval knight's relatively cheap and mass-produced gear (his horse will cost almost as much as all of the rest of his kit combined and will be almost as psychotic as he is- if you think a Samurai can kill a lot of guys with his "spear", you should see that horse go at it!) will, for all that it costs a fraction of the relative price, be significantly more effective in combat than that of a Samurai. His armour will be beaten, high-quality steel, smooth as glass, face-hardened by heat treatment and polished to a shine- guaranteed to deflect almost all known types of arrow**, spear tip, sword strike, war hammer*** and axe wielding maniac!**** A katana would chip and shatter before putting so much as a dent in that breastplate: the steel it's made of, even on the edge of the blade, simply isn't hard enough.

The problem of course is that so many of the other bastards in the medieval knight's battlefield were also pretty well equipped that, relatively speaking, it made much less of a difference.
crude and a bit insulting but informative
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:26 PM   #56
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
crude and a bit insulting but informative
thanks and really helpful ( the way you try to see things in an absolute way is impressive ) but is there a reference
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:06 PM   #57
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

I mostly post that because it's hilarious and done up by an amteur historian but there are a lot of papers that support his claims a lot of essays done up

I think bullshido has a huge ass list of sources dispelling the Katana myth..
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:38 PM   #58
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

but there is one point about the high iron concentration: i read a report about Damascus sword , that was made by Indian iron, the carbon is organized into nano tube, that makes it exceptionally solid.
the Scandinavian where the best in iron management, the paragraph you posted compare Katana with European sword, i mean British or german that is very likely made use of Scandinavian technology, does this apply to the Roman sword.
-also the point about the katana being weak ( compared to other swords ) is this based on experimental data or just an assumption based on the carbon concentration ?
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:54 PM   #59
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

well atho I have first hand exxperience that showed that between a katana, civil war cavalry saber, gladius and english braodsword reproductions all made by the same company and of the same material(modern stainless steel) that the katana was the most likely to bend, chip, warp and break. Therefore it is a structural issue with the Katana.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:45 PM   #60
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Default Re: Samurai vs Centurion

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Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
but there is one point about the high iron concentration: i read a report about Damascus sword , that was made by Indian iron, the carbon is organized into nano tube, that makes it exceptionally solid.
the Scandinavian where the best in iron management, the paragraph you posted compare Katana with European sword, i mean British or german that is very likely made use of Scandinavian technology, does this apply to the Roman sword.
No and the Roman sword was adopted from Spanish weaponry used by the Iberian peoples and it was steel forged and the quality depended on where it was forged within the empire..my issue with it however is that a Roman sword is a lot thicker than a Katana and is designed to go through thicker armor and be abused a great deal more

the Centurion does also I would point out have more ranged weapons than his enemy- but down to the swords, the craftmenship maybe more primitive than what the samurai has but the metal quality is going to be better and the sword is going to be tougher


Quote:
Originally Posted by athoatho View Post
-also the point about the katana being weak ( compared to other swords ) is this based on experimental data or just an assumption based on the carbon concentration ?
it's based on a lot of provable data as well, there was a German Tv show that had experts smash Katanas with broad swords (admittedly no Samurai would be stupid enough to clash blades with anyone much less a huge slab of steel like a broad sword, you don't do that in real fencing because it wears your blade down and chips it and Katanas were very expensive ) resulted in a shattered Katana

youtube has a lot of back door black smiths too and I've seen them post videos of their own home forged swords (one guy replicated the opening to Conan and its pretty awesome as you can see here)

I'm hesitant to use them as evidence because these are young guys and amateurs doing this stuff in their own backyards..I have no idea what type of forging techniques they use to make the swords making it too much "unknown" in terms of variables for my liking

the German show was done in direct protest to nat geo, deadliest warrior and mail call's perceived Katana wank..I know that and they did the tests specifically to debunk it..Myth busters also crapped on a lot of Katana myths and it looks kinda legit..again no clue on the type of weapons used

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Originally Posted by setsun View Post
well atho I have first hand exxperience that showed that between a katana, civil war cavalry saber, gladius and english braodsword reproductions all made by the same company and of the same material(modern stainless steel) that the katana was the most likely to bend, chip, warp and break. Therefore it is a structural issue with the Katana.
are you talking about the sixty dollar shlockfests one buys on Amazon.com? or the multi hundred dollar steel forged good quality ones?

because I buy the replica junk for clients who are history buffs all the time and I've gotta say they suck balls and it doesn't matter if its a Katana or a saber or a battle ax

I did a comparison with the high quality stuff once with SFRYU from CBR after a few too many debates with weeaboos (we're RL buddies)..but I didn't do it sword vs sword ( because again no one really "clashed" swords in legit duels and battles back then because it wasn't the point of sword fighting) I did it sword vs armor..

Katanas did good on side swipes near the kidneys and stuff on armor where the plates parted there, but when you challenged a breast plate by hitting it in a downward strike like trying to carve open someones chest from the shoulder down..and it resulted in the Katana rebounding and being bent and kinda nicked and the armor a little dented

basically the dude would have had a fractured collar bone or maybe a bruised up shoulder and but my sword was useless after that

mind ye I'm no swordsmen..I have no clue if I swung the thing right or not..but my impression was against the armor used in the middle east and in Europe a Katana was weak sauce

also tried doing your typical "anime/western cartoon" sword strikes and all it did was make my wrist swore as hell..eff up whatever blade I was using and make me look like a total idiot
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