Spoiler Lil Tobirama; Progenitor Of "SHINOBI ALLIANCE"

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by kalmeast

so this thread is still alive... gotta give myself time to read from page 3 where i stopped... if it aint worth it, i'll throw u guys a few diss lines

kiddin!

Well it gets pretty hard to read with like 8+ quotes on a single post.

[PrinceofPeace]

Before I counter what you guys said can we please settle something about the OP

Tobirama is hot-headed and his views have changed since he was a kid

^Agree or disagree^

[PrinceofPeace]

Before I counter what you guys said can we please settle something about the OP

Tobirama is hot-headed and his views have changed since he was a kid

^Agree or disagree^

[Sergoros]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Before I counter what you guys said can we please settle something about the OP

Tobirama is hot-headed and his views have changed since he was a kid

^Agree or disagree^

You can't find counterarguments and now goes for voting? Lame

I already proven your position wrong in kinda like 3-4 posts.

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Before I counter what you guys said can we please settle something about the OP

Tobirama is hot-headed and his views have changed since he was a kid

^Agree or disagree^

No. in the present yeah he was about to attack Sasake. But he knows more about the ninja world than we do. His style may be not match the others but that still doesn't make him hotheaded.

Orochimaru raised him and his brother to kill the third. That is just as much about destabilizing the village as any personal grudge vs Hiruzen (which should not warrant raising former Hokage from the afterlife to fight him).

It's cavorting with the enemy. And the person doing the cavorting, wait, threatening the village, is a Uchiha with MS.

Battle mode. That is a justified government action. Just because he decided quickly and didn't like Uchiha's as a kid (but later had one/Kagami on his team), doesn't mean he is wrong about Sasuke, and it doesn't mean he should not attempt to kill a Uchiha kid, claiming he'll destroy the village and claiming he's not a kid or pure.

That's before we even get into judging the chances of someone with MS not being crazy. And that's without all the support evidence already given in this thread.

[PrinceofPeace]

bumb I need to counter hold up

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

No. in the present yeah he was about to attack Sasake. But he knows more about the ninja world than we do. His style may be not match the others but that still doesn't make him hotheaded.
how does Tobirama know more about the ninja world? He has been dead for decades. Mind you Saskue wanted to talk to Hashirama not Tobirama. He was the one yelling and verge of attacking. Instead of talking like a young tobirama would want he wanted to attack

Orochimaru raised him and his brother to kill the third. That is just as much about destabilizing the village as any personal grudge vs Hiruzen (which should not warrant raising former Hokage from the afterlife to fight him).
Yet Hiruzen and Hashirama can stay calm and talk it out and not take it out on the others. Tobirama could have at least gone for Oro and not Saskue n Co.

It's cavorting with the enemy. And the person doing the cavorting, wait, threatening the village, is a Uchiha with MS.
But he did not talk. You can not go around this. Young Tobirama would have wanted to talk but Tobirama went to attack first.

Battle mode. That is a justified government action. Just because he decided quickly and didn't like Uchiha's as a kid (but later had one/Kagami on his team), doesn't mean he is wrong about Sasuke, and it doesn't mean he should not attempt to kill a Uchiha kid, claiming he'll destroy the village and claiming he's not a kid or pure.
Young Tobirama did not exculde the Uchiha from talking and peace. If Tobirama talked it out he would not have to kill Saskue.

That's before we even get into judging the chances of someone with MS not being crazy. And that's without all the support evidence already given in this thread.
Itachi and Shishi have MS but were not insane
And everyone else with a 2-3tomoe sharigan were not crazy either.
Only the 3 were crazy with MS but they also had a huge reson/traumaitc experience
What evidence? the one that say the most sane people like Itachi and Shishi are insane?!?! Yeah right

Tobrama could have at least talked to Saskue and then if Saskue stilll wanted to destroy the village TObirama could have attacked

Tobirama changed his views he obviously proved that

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace
Talks work for everyone. Uchihas are grown ups and there should be no exceptions to that rule for peace. After all the senjus made a treaty with the uchiha


Originally Posted by paradigm1977
I don't know. Didn't look like Nagato was interested in talking to Jiraiya. And that was his sensei. Nagato didn't even bother trying to recruit him. None. Even if he knew the answer, he didn't offer. No respect.


You totally lost this argument. See how you added your own context to what I was saying when I never hinted at comparing Tobirama to Nagato. Get out with that sneaky argument.
...what ? How is that sneaky? Then why did you even bring up Nagato? Not my fault you brought him up. I figured you were comapring the two. NOw i dont really know what you were even trying to accomplish

You said, as at the top of this post "Talking work for everyone. Uchihas are grown ups and there should be no exceptions to that rule for peace."

That's what I quoted.
So when I bring up Nagato not willing to talk to Jiraiya, am I comparing Nagato to Tobirama who you never mentioned in your post, and who I never mentioned in mine? No, you are supposed to make the straight forward connection of me disproving your "talk works for everyone."
That was Lil Tobirama's way of thinking. THat talks work for everyone. Nagato never thought that. I still dont know what your point is? Yes Talks do work since Naruto used his TNJ on Nagato to change his heart.

Nagato was seeking his own form of peace, the point isn't the form of it and him being "akatsuki crazy," it's that in general, even though he wanted peace, as in no war, he would not bring Jiraiya along on his peaceful mission.
because jiryria would not be on his side. nagato did not believe talks work but Power worked to gain peace. Plus Nagato was already mad at Jiryria they didn't see eye to eye at the moment.

Nagato was the one who wouldn't have listened, not Jiraiya. Just as you originally said talking works for everyone. But see successfully "working," is really about listening. The point is who would be needed to be "talked to," and would they listen. We would be convincing sasuke, that's why you say Tobirama should have talked to Sasuke. And it's Nagato who wouldn't have listened to peace with Jiraiya. Not the other way around. So it's Sasuke linked to Nagato. See?
Again I am not the one saying Talks work for all its Tobirama. Yet Jiryria and Animal path did talk. Animal path answered his question.

Should we even get into you calling Nagato crazy, yet deciding you would conveniently not compare him to Sasuke? Because Nagato wants at least a twisted peace and Sasuke doesn't, so wouldn't Sasuke be the most evil of the four of them? But naturally, it would be more beneficial for your argument to compare Nagato and Tobirama as two who skip talking. Whereas I simply point out that it wouldn't work, by pointing out the parties that would prevent it from working.
Of course Saskue is the most sinster. And he is really confused right now. But unlike Nagato Saskue wanted to talk first. Saskue is lost and he is trying to be found with a smiple answer. Lol dude I thought you meant Nagato and Tobirama let it go my argument can swing either way. Jiryria would have loved to talk it out with Nagato if Nagato was willing. Once tobirama had enough talking he was ready to attack.

And refresh my memory on when Tobirama lost his way as a child. Since you are using that as a counter argument against me. So you even know when he lost his way and are informing me. What chapter? page? Oh that's right, your point has yet to come true, and even if it does, it still doesn't change the fact that talking doesnt work for "everyone."
idk where exactly where Tobirama lost his way it is unkonwn. But when he was a kid he believed in talking it out....yet now he would not even answer Saskue's question. He obviously changed his nindo and lost his way.

And back on topic, Tobirama was the progenitor, but then the next issue madara had the same idea. So now he's not.

are we on track now

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Sergoros

First. Danzo already said, for attk to succes, he need anbu. Without anbu its failure. Danzo have control over root. He have no control over anbu. So...Or with itachi help. Or w8 for uchiha to make 1-st strike. Btw im repeating myself. Already said this few posts ago. But well. I see u need it.
That is why Danzo talked to Itachi. Danzo did not have control over ANBU. Danzo wanted to make the first strike and the only way to do that was with Itachi which is why Danzo took Itachi aside privetly to talk to him. It is tiering to reiterate

So you already give up on this point? Since your only argument is "I do what i want". Rofl. Good luck for ya in your dream world discussion )
I never assume on something, that already was proven otherwise. All my assumptions swim in unknown water. But you...U just assume something over proven facts. And thats your mistake ^^.
lol wut! You assume Itachi and Shihisi are insane for one thing

So he basicaly was brainwashed by cs? heh. Do I need to add up anything? Sure. It was his great plan. But evil oro brainwashed him and turned him in egoistical psycho.
CS is not brainwash EX. Anko!!! Saskue was thinking clearly and he was just trying to do whatever it took to get to his brother and kill him. Saskue was going to kill naruto so he would have MS but wised up and did not. Saskue was aimed to kill Itachi and since saskue had the chance he went to kill Oro. Saskue has not and will not get brainwashed.

So...real sasuke only wakes up after itachi stole cs from him? . Ah no...he gained ms and turned into evil pshyco again...
Saskue was STILL crazy because he found out the truth about Itachi and you know it. He finally realized how much he cared and how much Itachi cared for him which and since Saskue realized this he knew that Itachi was the closest to him and since Saskue killed him he got MS which makes everyone besides Itacchi and Shishi cra cra

What a downer...So real sasuke died after being put in container and now evil psycho holds his body? U know...Its the same as oro gaining his body. What a difference? Old sasuke dead. Psycho now have sasuke body. So he basicaly failed the leaf. And given his body to enemy of leaf. Clear betrayal.
Saskue never changed. He just wanted more power and he did not want to stray from his goal. Staying in the leaf he was not getting stronger he was just being surpassed which means he was farther from his goal. Saskue used Oro and then killed him then Itachi. Your welcome Leaf Village

yy..and then ms infulencing him. Real sasuke died after been put in barrel. So he did nothing. Only one who did smth is evil psycho, who own sasuke body now.
Yeah cuz the dramtic experience of getting revenge on his bro had nothing to do with it(sarcasm)

"Though it all was more like good manipulations." At least read what you quoting .

As i stated above...by your own words....Sasuke already died . But. Ok.
Do you realise, that some techniques require special instruments? Like oro laboratory? This barrel might have been only to put sasuke asleep, so oro can confine him in his laboratory
Once again you assume. If Oro wanted to brainwash him than Oro could have Made Saskue want to be his vessel. It was not brainwash because Saskue still wanted to kill Itachi.

. As I said. Since sasuke knew nothing about oro or his techniques. So its obviously reckless to do what oro wants of him.
No it was brave and confident. The point is Oro did not get to him and Itachi and Oro died.
Thats your assumption. Prove it. Or its just words on air. They might as well been there even before madara vs hashirama fight. You can't derail prove with assumptions
your the one assuming that it would work.

There was nothing about what kind of feeling it was. Just a result. Once they get sharingan > almost all turn evil. Reread chapter.
Itachi, Shishi, and everyone else who did not have MS were not evil
Only the 3 were evil
It is RARE for an Uchiha to go through a traumati experience to gain the MS which makes them turn evil
Even when the 3 had the tomeos they were not evil at all (besides Saskue who was already after his goal).
Obito was good and tried to save his friends lives
and
Madara warned Hashirama to get out

Exceptions. Even tobirama said. Almost all of them. Btw...He didnt say, that they instantly become evil. He said, that almost all uchiha, who gained sharingan, eventualy fall in darkness. Its not instantly. But with time.
Exactly not all of them so why punish a whole clan for one person who became really really evil. There is no other evidence of others..............


man. I say almost all of them crazy, because tobirama said so.You even used his words. Almost all. How much do you think is almost all? It means, that u take hunded of uchihas with sharingam > and only 2 of them would be sane. Its just so easy. I dunno. Try reading dictionary or smth. He didnt talk about ms. He was talking about basic sharingan. And ms was mentioned, as Even deeper darkness. So sharingan is already darkness.
Tobirama lived in a time of war where they were his enemies so of course where tramatic things are bound to happen in war and were they are enemies they are obviously going to look evil

Tobirama: "I have seen it happen many times."
Many times. Not few. Many. He even says, that basic symptom of the change is gaining sharingan. After that, almost all of them turn evil. What other proof you could want?
That is not a good source when Tobirama was the enemy of the Uchiha so of course whatever they do is going to be evil during a time of war

Gaining sharingan - Almost for all uchiha - being captured by evil. So there is very low chance, that it would be positive change.
Most peopel that we have seen were positive

And about why tobirama took uchihas on mission.
Why would lord hunt fox with dogs? They not humans, but have some positive traits, that helps to catch fox. Though, you wont give place at your table to dog. It would eat from the floor.
Lol do you hear how wrong that sounds. THey were suppose to be EQUALS

Done.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Sergoros

Tobirama was only one, who was cold blooded. Other hokages was kind and soft. Thats why they was ready to listen.
Exaclty my point. Older Tobirama is not soft and kind but lil Tobirama was who wanted to listen. You just proved me right and why this thread is wrong. THANKS!

Sasuke, right now, is like a crazy terrorist with a bomb. He makes his demands and if answers not as good as he wants.... "Ill destroy the leaf!"
Name a terroist who just wants to talk and get an answer. All other 100% of terroist want money or power or something else that is not as hard to give compared to a simple answer. Saskue could have been turned good if Tobirama would have talked. At least Tobirama could have talked THEN killed him if Saskue did not like the answer

Soft way would be listen to him and try to reason him to stop. Thats what other hokages doing.
Yeah the BETTER hokages

But tobirama saw to many crazy uchihas. So he didnt want to risk. Better kill him before he has time to push the button.
Hashirama saw and battled the worst and strongest Uchiha yet he stayed calm.

And that is

[Harlequin]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

And that is

That's too much posting brah! Give that dude a chance to reply. You might hurt his feelings haha.

Wish I could give you an approve but oh well lol

[PrinceofPeace]

in debates you must release your feelings like a ninja....LOL

[Sergoros]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

That is why Danzo talked to Itachi. Danzo did not have control over ANBU. Danzo wanted to make the first strike and the only way to do that was with Itachi which is why Danzo took Itachi aside privetly to talk to him. It is tiering to reiterate

Hard to keep up now? Dont we?
And thats why itachi had chance to talk with uchihas to stop them. Or with Hiruzen. Or with whoever he wanted. Cause it all depended on uchihas and itachi. Danzo couldn't do a thing there. So....like i said before...Its madness for itachi to listen to some random evil guy and do what danzo wanted of him.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

lol wut! You assume Itachi and Shihisi are insane for one thing

Assume? Thats already proven. Itachi listened to some random evil guy and did what danzo wanted of him. Pure madness. He killed his whole clan. Thats madness. Shisui...the only thing we seen of him is some little chat with itachi...and then he pulled his own eye out of socket. Try to read it without context. Thats pure madness also. No one said, That Itachi and shisui are sane. So its not contradicting what we read in manga. Id say more. Manga proves, that uchihas with mangekyou is crazy.
"The deeper their darkness becomes...The more powerfull their eyes get." So....id say Itachi had susano. Thats quite high road. And shisui eye level was beyond measure.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

CS is not brainwash EX. Anko!!! Saskue was thinking clearly and he was just trying to do whatever it took to get to his brother and kill him. Saskue was going to kill naruto so he would have MS but wised up and did not. Saskue was aimed to kill Itachi and since saskue had the chance he went to kill Oro. Saskue has not and will not get brainwashed.

Ok. So he was sane, when he wanted to kill naruto? Totally not betrayal. yep...

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Saskue wanted to become stronger. His goal was still only one person who deserved it which was Itachi not everyone Itachi knew. Saskue would do whatever he had to. Plus naruto was not going to let Saskue leave unless Naruto was K.O or dead. It is what Saskue had to do. Plus Saskue had curse mark on him which made him crazy. Everyone with the CM went insane and bloodlusted. Saskue was corrupted by the vessel it was not his uchiha genes or his sharigan it was the CS and being in that mystical barrier ma-bob to make him not regular Calmer Saskue.

You even contradict yourself.
Now choose. You can't walk on both roads.
Sasuke is sane and traitor,(thus, making himself crazy out of sharingan and his uchihas mad genes) cause he wanted to kill his own friend naruto. And would have killed, if naruto had no imba fox regen.
Or. Sasuke is totally brainwashed and cm or ms makes him do crazy things? ( Also proving, that sharingan made him crazy, cause he let enemy do whatever oro wanted.)

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Saskue was STILL crazy because he found out the truth about Itachi and you know it. He finally realized how much he cared and how much Itachi cared for him which and since Saskue realized this he knew that Itachi was the closest to him and since Saskue killed him he got MS which makes everyone besides Itacchi and Shishi cra cra

You just agreeing with me. Nothing to add here. He gained ms and went crazy. Just like i said. Doesnt matter how it happened. Thats happened.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Saskue never changed. He just wanted more power and he did not want to stray from his goal. Staying in the leaf he was not getting stronger he was just being surpassed which means he was farther from his goal. Saskue used Oro and then killed him then Itachi. Your welcome Leaf Village

And I already proven many times, that trusting enemy, you know nothing about, is totally crazy. Even without cm or ms. He just gone and let oro do whatever oro wanted of him. Madness.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Once again you assume. If Oro wanted to brainwash him than Oro could have Made Saskue want to be his vessel. It was not brainwash because Saskue still wanted to kill Itachi.

And thats why sasuke plan was madness. He given himself for anything, oro could have been able to do. And even this part could have happened. Thats why his whole "lets go to oro, he would make me stronger" was total madness. And. Thats not asumption. Thats "what if?". We already knew, what happpened. And thx to plot no jutsu sasuke somehow got out of oro grasp. But without plot no jutsu sasuke would have been mindless doll not long after him entering oro lab. Or even before.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

No it was brave and confident. The point is Oro did not get to him and Itachi and Oro died.

Just facepalm....Even tripplefacepalm wont be enough... Srsly? So its brave and confident to enter in obvious trap? He survived only thx to pnj. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

your the one assuming that it would work.

What would work? Do you even read what you quoting? Put some effort in it.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

It is RARE for an Uchiha to go through a traumati experience to gain the MS which makes them turn evil

Read what you quoting bro. Just read it. There was actual quotes of tobirama, which hashirama agreed on. So... Right now you arguing with actual manga facts. Good luck there.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Exactly not all of them so why punish a whole clan for one person who became really really evil. There is no other evidence of others..............

Almost all. Should I answer all your quotes starting with "almost all uchiha turn evil after gaining sharingan"? Thats what tobirama said. Go argue with kishi.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Tobirama lived in a time of war where they were his enemies so of course where tramatic things are bound to happen in war and were they are enemies they are obviously going to look evil

You could assume, that tobirama sight was prejudiced. He certainly the guy, that looks so.(I wont agree with this, but thats smth i have no proofs to argue against) But we have hashirama there. Guy who, on the other hand, tries as much as he can, to understand others. So he was totally unprejudiced. And he agreed with tobirama....so we have double proof here. You can't argue with that.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

That is not a good source when Tobirama was the enemy of the Uchiha so of course whatever they do is going to be evil during a time of war

Hashirama. Without hashirama, tobirama words wouldnt be to much. But with hashirama agreeing on this...we have double proof. He basically naruto of his times. Naruto wont stay silent and keep nodding, if someone was telling something prejudiced.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Most peopel that we have seen were positive

We seen only outer part. We know nothing about what was boiling in their head. So you can't use it as proof. But. We can judge their actions later.
And you wont find even 1 sane uchiha in result. Almost All of them done smth, that normal person wouldnt even think about.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Lol do you hear how wrong that sounds. THey were suppose to be EQUALS

Supposed. Yep. But world isnt utopia. I bet, if there were nude model contest, you wont find aburame clan there. Cause their traits makes it impossible for them. To even be there. So it makes it impossible for them to be there on equal term.
Nara clan would win any strategy contest, if they wanted. So other villages wasnt equal there too.
Thats how big villages work. You have to utilize strong traits of clans and suppress weak ones. But uchiha wanted everything. And thats a problem. They have strong authority. They had power. They was nearly best in every contest. But hey....thats not enough. When they found out, that there was a special supervision on them....they forgot all the benefits and just gone nuts over 1 issue. Not even tryed to talk!! Thats why they crazy.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Exaclty my point. Older Tobirama is not soft and kind but lil Tobirama was who wanted to listen. You just proved me right and why this thread is wrong. THANKS!

Look at little tobirama. Do you find him soft? Or kind? No.
It was 100% rational way of thinking. Thats how computer works. If u want A. You have to do B. Cold blooded and rational. Even though it was emotionally impossible for others to even think about it, cause they all had family members killed by other clans. But tobirama was cold blooded enough, to understand, that you have to give up all your emotions and think rational, if u want peace. But later he had more info. "this clan is crazy and might be dangerous for peace. Talks wont work for crazy folks. Have to use other means." Thats how he thinks. From the childhood he was cold blooded and rational. Perfect hokage.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Name a terroist who just wants to talk and get an answer. All other 100% of terroist want money or power or something else that is not as hard to give compared to a simple answer. Saskue could have been turned good if Tobirama would have talked. At least Tobirama could have talked THEN killed him if Saskue did not like the answer

What kind of demands depends on the world. And for Sasuke, answer is more, then power or money of our world would be for our terrorists. So it doesnt matter. Whats matter, is a way, how he asks. And. Tobirama would have even listened to him....But he saw mangekyou. And listened to sasuke Mad Idea. So...Answer was already compiled." Ms>mad. But mby he is not dangerous mad(like uchiha and shisui. They was mad, but not dangerous. Tobirama didnt know about them, but mby he knew some others like them). Lets listen some more. He wants to destroy leaf. So his mad idea is destruction of my village. Answer >kill."
Easy as possible

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Yeah the BETTER hokages

Yeah. The stupid hokages. Such rulers wont ever work in real world.

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Hashirama saw and battled the worst and strongest Uchiha yet he stayed calm.

Cause he is naruto of his times. Stupid and irrational. "Hey! He is crazy evil freak and tried to kill me many times, and even sakura once. I bet he is good deep inside. Yeh...I would totally bet my life on it!"

[ninetales5]

same.

[PrinceofPeace]

Same what?

[Harlequin]

Originally Posted by ninetales5

same.

You should really quote a word you reply to if you'll post one word OR you're just in it for post counts haha

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

Of course Saskue is the most sinster. And he is really confused right now. But unlike Nagato Saskue wanted to talk first. Saskue is lost and he is trying to be found with a smiple answer. Lol dude I thought you meant Nagato and Tobirama let it go my argument can swing either way. Jiryria would have loved to talk it out with Nagato if Nagato was willing. Once tobirama had enough talking he was ready to attack.

See here's your problem. Your argument(s) is based on you thinking Sasuke has a right to be talked to first, if he's willing to talk. In addition, if Tobirama doesn't try, he's wrong.

Sasuke is threatenig the possibility of mass murder. Right there, that's it. He has NO RIGHTS to be talked to first.

He is taking a position of authority over both a people and a government and saying he's thinking of attacking. So right off he is stating he is a threat and is not bowing to ANY LAW, and that he will decide.

Your argument on Sasuke's behalf and Tobirama being hot headed is fundamentally flawed.

THE ONLY WAY you can argue Sasuke HAS A RIGHT TO BE TALKED WITH FIRST, (before a fight to the death), is if he surrenders to Tobirama for making a terroristic threat and surrenders to Konoha authority to await trial.

That is it. Well, that and he is accepting help from another terrorist who killed a leader of that government. At the least, Tobirama knows Oro brought him back to force him to kill the current hokage. THESE ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS NINJA.

So technically, Orochimaru could probably be killed on site, if that has passed as a law, and Sasuke for being an accomplice who was threatening the government and standing by his side.

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by paradigm1977

See here's your problem. Your argument(s) is based on you thinking Sasuke has a right to be talked to first, if he's willing to talk. In addition, if Tobirama doesn't try, he's wrong.
It is more humane to talk it out. Especially with the hokages.All the other hokages were calm and underestading and ready to talk. And my main point is Tobirama could have talked first and fought later. If Saskue was still evil then by all means go Tobirama KILL HIM! But why do it off the bat. Saskue could have been good after the talk and went to kill Oro again.

Sasuke is threatenig the possibility of mass murder. Right there, that's it. He has NO RIGHTS to be talked to first.
I understand but he just wants an answer. Surely the hokages can talk first. Afterall the other hokages did besides Tobirama. Why not talk first and fight later. yes Saskue was rude but so was Tobirama. It was a win win for talking. IF the hokages talked Saskue may turn good and not destroy leaf. If they talk they have more time to talk to Saskue and stall him from attacking the village. Also by talking if Saskue was still evil the hokages could THEN attack all at once and break out of ET togetehr.

He is taking a position of authority over both a people and a government and saying he's thinking of attacking. So right off he is stating he is a threat and is not bowing to ANY LAW, and that he will decide.
Saskeu does have the advantage I mean they are like puppets. But I do not agree with Saskue's actions but why not talk first? The hokages are suppose to be the bigger people and leaders anyway not just attack and go crazy. With that Tobirama is no different than an Uchiha. There would be no harm in talking...what do they got to lose? Even if the talk failed they could attack Saskeu afterwards. 3/4 hokages did not attack but one did.....does that really sound like that 1 is right?

Your argument on Sasuke's behalf and Tobirama being hot headed is fundamentally flawed.
lol not at all.It would be the humane thing to do

THE ONLY WAY you can argue Sasuke HAS A RIGHT TO BE TALKED WITH FIRST, (before a fight to the death), is if he surrenders to Tobirama for making a terroristic threat and surrenders to Konoha authority to await trial.
For goodness sake Saskue talked to them as well. Saskue did not roll up in the house and say ."hey you can either do this or that"
NO
Saskue asked questions and the entire hokages heared his sad story of how the leaf hurt the uchiha and how he lost his brother. Tobirama had no heart or compassion. Saskue jsut wanted an answer. Saskue was obviously confused and lost his way. He just wanted an answer he just wanted to find himself so he knew what he could do. Hiruzen showed remoused and Hashirama complimented Saskue's brother

That is it. Well, that and he is accepting help from another terrorist who killed a leader of that government. At the least, Tobirama knows Oro brought him back to force him to kill the current hokage. THESE ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS NINJA.
They do not know he killed Danzo. Also Hiruzen wanted to at least fight oro and not Saskue. Oro was the one who brought them back.

So technically, Orochimaru could probably be killed on site, if that has passed as a law, and Sasuke for being an accomplice who was threatening the government and standing by his side.

So your more worried about the accomplice then the ring leader??

[PrinceofPeace]

Originally Posted by Sergoros

Hard to keep up now? Dont we?
yeach actually have a life so I dont listen to this ish all day
And thats why itachi had chance to talk with uchihas to stop them.
Only koto would work with the Uchiha or Hokages. But Danzo was already on to Shishi which is why he took his eye. No talking would help either side
Or with Hiruzen. Or with whoever he wanted. Cause it all depended on uchihas and itachi. Danzo couldn't do a thing there.
He made Itachi choose to help the village or his clan. He helped start this
So....like i said before...Its madness for itachi to listen to some random evil guy and do what danzo wanted of him.
So it is better to start a civil war and take innocent lives as your whole clan dies?

Assume? Thats already proven. Itachi listened to some random evil guy and did what danzo wanted of him.
With the help of obito. There was no better option. Itachi is a hero he killed hundreds to save thousands
Pure madness.
Itachi is a hero
He killed his whole clan.
To save his bro and his village
Thats madness.
That's selfsihless
Shisui...the only thing we seen of him is some little chat with itachi...and then he pulled his own eye out of socket. Try to read it without context. Thats pure madness also.
Lol way to be one sided. He gave up his eyes and his life to give Itachi the power to save the village and to make sure danzo would not steal his eyes.
No one said, That Itachi and shisui are sane. So its not contradicting what we read in manga. Id say more. Manga proves, that uchihas with mangekyou is crazy.
Anyone with common sense knows they are sane. No where in the magna does it say Itachi and Shishi are crazy. They are heros even naruto thinks so.
"The deeper their darkness becomes...The more powerfull their eyes get." So....id say Itachi had susano. Thats quite high road. And shisui eye level was beyond measure.
In tobirama's time they were just evil to him

Ok. So he was sane, when he wanted to kill naruto? Totally not betrayal. yep...
Saskue was corrupted by his rough childhood Itachi made. He was levelheaded when he wanted to kill Naruto but he was doing it wrong to get revenge. Overall he DID NOT kill Naruto

You even contradict yourself.
Now choose. You can't walk on both roads.
Sasuke is sane and traitor,(thus, making himself crazy out of sharingan and his uchihas mad genes) cause he wanted to kill his own friend naruto. And would have killed, if naruto had no imba fox regen.
Saskue is not sane because of the tramatiizing events. But having the sharigan did not make him crzay. He was just after his brother for revenge which would also help the village
Or.
Sasuke is totally brainwashed and cm or ms makes him do crazy things? ( Also proving, that sharingan made him crazy, cause he let enemy do whatever oro wanted.)
He is not brainwashed at all and you can not prove it you just want Saskue to be

You just agreeing with me. Nothing to add here. He gained ms and went crazy. Just like i said. Doesnt matter how it happened. Thats happened.
He was 1 of the only few 3 that is rare to activate it because of a serious traumati event that would never happen if Tobirama was fair and equal

And I already proven many times, that trusting enemy, you know nothing about, is totally crazy. Even without cm or ms. He just gone and let oro do whatever oro wanted of him. Madness.
Saskue succeeded. Saskue knew enough and killed Oro. I will just repeat this fact cuz your just trying to make him sound worse.

And thats why sasuke plan was madness. He given himself for anything, oro could have been able to do.
Bust saskue succeeded
And even this part could have happened. Thats why his whole "lets go to oro, he would make me stronger" was total madness. And. Thats not asumption. Thats "what if?". We already knew, what happpened. And thx to plot no jutsu sasuke somehow got out of oro grasp. But without plot no jutsu sasuke would have been mindless doll not long after him entering oro lab. Or even before.
You do not know what Oro could or couldn't do.
Saskeu knew he would not harm him or mind control cuz Saskue was the new vessel who had to go on his own free will. Plus Oro's arms are sealed so he could not do much.

Just facepalm....Even tripplefacepalm wont be enough... Srsly? So its brave and confident to enter in obvious trap? He survived only thx to pnj. Nothing more.
Not a trap he surivived. The "trap" failed cuz Saskue is alive and Oro was killed

What would work? Do you even read what you quoting? Put some effort in it.
Please stop your random assujming

Read what you quoting bro. Just read it. There was actual quotes of tobirama, which hashirama agreed on. So... Right now you arguing with actual manga facts. Good luck there.
Yeah back then during war when everyone hated each otehr. Very fair assumption

Almost all. Should I answer all your quotes starting with "almost all uchiha turn evil after gaining sharingan"? Thats what tobirama said. Go argue with kishi.
Sure. And those that turn evil are only 3.
I mean its not just the sharigna or uchiah blood that makes them evil its bad experience that is why people like Nagato and Oro became evil.

You could assume, that tobirama sight was prejudiced. He certainly the guy, that looks so.(I wont agree with this, but thats smth i have no proofs to argue against) But we have hashirama there. Guy who, on the other hand, tries as much as he can, to understand others. So he was totally unprejudiced. And he agreed with tobirama....so we have double proof here. You can't argue with that.
And I dont. Like they said not all were evil. But as well as of Hashirama their enemies were the uchiha so they saw them as the worst atm and the enemies. And in a time of war they were not at their kindest.


We seen only outer part. We know nothing about what was boiling in their head. So you can't use it as proof. But. We can judge their actions later.
And you wont find even 1 sane uchiha in result. Almost All of them done smth, that normal person wouldnt even think about.
itachi is sane

Supposed. Yep. But world isnt utopia. I bet, if there were nude model contest, you wont find aburame clan there. Cause their traits makes it impossible for them. To even be there. So it makes it impossible for them to be there on equal term.
WHAT?!?!!?!
Nara clan would win any strategy contest, if they wanted. So other villages wasnt equal there too.
Thats how big villages work. You have to utilize strong traits of clans and suppress weak ones. But uchiha wanted everything.
Where did you get that idea. The uchiha did not want everything they just wanted to be treated as EQUALS
And thats a problem. They have strong authority. They had power.
They were forced that power and authority that they did not ask nor want
They was nearly best in every contest. But hey....thats not enough. When they found out, that there was a special supervision on them....they forgot all the benefits and just gone nuts over 1 issue. Not even tryed to talk!! Thats why they crazy.
Tobirama did not talk to them that is whats crazy. They were being watched while others were not which does nto show them as equals

Look at little tobirama. Do you find him soft? Or kind? No.
He was kind. He protected his Bro from his father and he believed in talking not fighting.
It was 100% rational way of thinking. Thats how computer works. If u want A. You have to do B. Cold blooded and rational. Even though it was emotionally impossible for others to even think about it, cause they all had family members killed by other clans. But tobirama was cold blooded enough, to understand, that you have to give up all your emotions and think rational, if u want peace. But later he had more info. "this clan is crazy and might be dangerous for peace. Talks wont work for crazy folks. Have to use other means." Thats how he thinks. From the childhood he was cold blooded and rational. Perfect hokage.
He changed from a kind caring talking it out kid to a rash cold hearted no talking fighter

What kind of demands depends on the world. And for Sasuke, answer is more, then power or money of our world would be for our terrorists. So it doesnt matter. Whats matter, is a way, how he asks. And. Tobirama would have even listened to him....But he saw mangekyou. And listened to sasuke Mad Idea.
Once again all of the other hokages stayed calm and did nto mind. Tobirama was being rude as well.
So...Answer was already compiled." Ms>mad. But mby he is not dangerous mad(like uchiha and NOT MAD=shisui. They was mad, but not dangerous. Tobirama didnt know about them, but mby he knew some others like them). Lets listen some more. He wants to destroy leaf. So his mad idea is destruction of my village. Answer >kill."
Easy as possible
if they talked Saskue could be good but if they did not Saskue would have destroyed teh village. If They talked and Saskue was still evil they would attack afterwards

Yeah. The stupid hokages. Such rulers wont ever work in real world.
LOL WOW. So you think Tobirama is perfect and the best hokage now? Tobirama barely did anything as hokages. He stole Hashirama's ideas on how to create the village. Tobirama could nto even establish peace.

Cause he is naruto of his times. Stupid and irrational. "Hey! He is crazy evil freak and tried to kill me many times, and even sakura once. I bet he is good deep inside. Yeh...I would totally bet my life on it!"

DONE
talk then kill not kill off the bat

[paradigm1977]

Originally Posted by PrinceofPeace

So your more worried about the accomplice then the ring leader??

I'm really commenting off your quote of me.

You keep saying what could it hurt to talk with Sasuke. You act like Sasuke won't do anything if he doesn't get the answers he wants. Wrong answer means village attacked. Those are Sasuke's terms. The threat is there regardless of talking. That's why you arguing for the chance to talk is flawed. You don't want to look at the possible repercussions of talking. You act like it's just a talk and he's curious.

Before Hashirama broke free, we had no proof that the hokage's could. So if SAsuke doesn't hear what he wants to hear he could attack the village, while the person who attacked Hiruzen, and forced 2 hokages to fight him, would be helping him.

And yes I'm judging this from the beginning of this situation. Since Tobirama acted before Hashirama was free. And maybe the reason it was Tobirama attacking is because Minato and Hiruzen may figure they aren't strong enough anyway. Whereas Tobirama is Senju, may have fought more Uchiha than anyone else in the room, invented ET, And Sasuke was threatening the village. And maybe hashirama didn't attack, because he feels he;'s above sasuke and doesn't need to.

You don'ttake the repercussions of the situation seriously enough. And that is why you keep pushing that they should talk.

on a side note.
You take over a building and have hostages. Sure you talk on the phone with the police, but they don't care about you. If they think you are alone and they have a clean sniper shot through the window.... you're probably done. The reason they don't right away, is that there may be accomplices who could harm the hostages.

So I'm still saying your argument is flawed. That's even if Sasuke changes his mind. The situation is, Sasuke's life should end immediately.